BJ Penn kicking it with Kid Yamamoto

[Beebs]

A video of them just hanging out, jumping off that bridge you always see BJ jumping off of. How fucking awsome is BJ's life, I mean really.

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[ufoalf]

True.

[achillesthegreat]

BJ is such a geezer. He is just jamming, having fun yet he is arguably the best P4P MMA in the world.

[ufoalf]

BJ is such a geezer. He is just jamming, having fun yet he is arguably the best P4P MMA in the world.

No.

[achillesthegreat]

No.
Arguably - YES!

[BewareofDawg]

Arguably - YES!
There is definitely a case to be made for him. He literally has no real weakness. He is primarily a ground fighter, given his BJJ background yet he rarely if ever gets outclassed standing up. He was outstriking GSP, and making Hughes look silly on the ground. I know this statement is waaaay overused in boxing and MMA, but it is true of Penn-----If he is truly motivated and really trains and gets into great shape, he could possibly be as "unbeatable" as you can get in this sport.

[Donut62]

There is definitely a case to be made for him. He literally has no real weakness.

Since when has a propensity to come in looking like a tub of shit and gassing out after the first round not been a weakness? BJ is great, but he lost 2 of his last 3 fights, and has one win at his new weight class against a guy who just got knocked out by a 20 year old kid who hadn't even made the TUF cast yet. We have no reason to laud his p4p greatness until he proves it in the cage against a top 10 opponent which he hasn't done in years.

[achillesthegreat]

There is definitely a case to be made for him. He literally has no real weakness. He is primarily a ground fighter, given his BJJ background yet he rarely if ever gets outclassed standing up. He was outstriking GSP, and making Hughes look silly on the ground. I know this statement is waaaay overused in boxing and MMA, but it is true of Penn-----If he is truly motivated and really trains and gets into great shape, he could possibly be as "unbeatable" as you can get in this sport.
I agree, when Penn is on fire he burns the house down. Plus you know you've seen him pull off the virtuoso shit like Floyd and Jones in boxing.

When he slithered onto Hughes back, everyone should be in awe.

His dexterity is ridiculous.

[achillesthegreat]

Skill-wise, yes he is arguably the most talented in MMA, but being talented doesn't equate to being the best fighter in every case, BJ's case being one of them.
You say he is talented, you say he is skilled, he is definitely smart. Hes a top dog at lightweight and welterweight.

What's left?

[Donut62]

You say he is talented, you say he is skilled, he is definitely smart. Hes a top dog at lightweight and welterweight.

What's left?

How about beating a ranked opponent in the past 3 years. According to what you say, BJ never has to fight again and we can just all sit around and circle jerk to his "MAD SKILLZ" while he becomes the new Rickson.

[BewareofDawg]

Skill-wise, yes he is arguably the most talented in MMA, but being talented doesn't equate to being the best fighter in every case, BJ's case being one of them.
Thats what I was getting at. Skills and Potential.

[ufoalf]

Talent and potential is not what's measure when considering best p4p. BJ Penn can't make a strong case.

[Donut62]

Don't get me wrong, I love BJ, one of my top 5 favorite MMA fighters. But I am a firm believer of backing shit up in the ring as your number one priority as a fighter. And that's what BJ has lacked. He appears to have turned a corner in attitude as of late, but until he steps into the ring against a top guy we don't know that. But the motivated, trained BJ Penn that raped Gomi is the best LW in the world, he just needs to live up to that potential.

[Doppleganger]

BJ needs to stay at 155lb IMO. If he stays there he's likely to be in better shape than at 170lb and if BJ is in shape and focused then he has a shout for No 1 P4P. Only a shout though.

But he isn't gonna stay at 155 is he? He's moving up to 170lb which he's doing for some reasons but it has to be said there is also a degree of laziness on his part too.

[achillesthegreat]

Motivation, being in shape, not gassing after a round or two in fights you're winning. Winning more than 2 out of your last 5 fights, one of them to a has been.

He has all the talent in the world, but not the motivation, hence his shitty cardio and his tendancy to gas, leading to losses. Sorry, that's not the stuff of the best in the world. Fedor has similar talent but a lot more motivation and determination. BJ has no case over Fedor or even a few others. I don't rank him in the top 10.
The fact he isn't motivated, in shape and gasses YET achieves what he does is simply a reflection of what he is as a fighter.

Some of the top P4P boxers have recent losses but rank high.

Many fighters lack motivation, doesn't mean they aren't great or top P4P.

BJs performances agaisnt Hughes and GSP gives him all the case in the world.

He straight raped and bamboozled Hughes in the first fight.

[achillesthegreat]

How about beating a ranked opponent in the past 3 years. According to what you say, BJ never has to fight again and we can just all sit around and circle jerk to his "MAD SKILLZ" while he becomes the new Rickson.
BJ just avenged a loss, this does something for his legacy all time and now.

Prior to that he gave arguably the best welter ever hell and prior to that he gave a top P4P hell again.

Fighters should get credit in defeat i.e. Hearns and Walcott losing to Leonard and Louis.

[Donut62]

[Never mind I'm retarded.

[BewareofDawg]

Now you are just being rediculous. He's 1-2 as a welterweight in the UFC. The fact that you can even say this without putting a smilie after it blows my mind.
He said he gave the 'best ww ever' hell. meaning Hughes.

[Donut62]

He said he gave the 'best ww ever' hell. meaning Hughes.

Ha, yeah I see that now. I forgot how to read today.

[ufoalf]

Fighters should get credit in defeat i.e. Hearns and Walcott losing to Leonard and Louis.

Not when you trying to argue a case for p4p for him.

[cross_trainer]

Not when you trying to argue a case for p4p for him.

Well, if Mayweather narrowly lost a decision to a prime Marvin Hagler, it would definitely go a long way toward a pound-for-pound ranking for him. Still, I agree--Penn cannot be considered P4P #1.

[achillesthegreat]

Not when you trying to argue a case for p4p for him.
I disagree. Many guys retain their high P4P ranking based off of competative losses.

[achillesthegreat]

So you lose competitively 3 out of your last 5 fights, with wins coming over a good opponent and a has been, and you're ranked #1? Overall record 11-4-1.
Doesn't work like that. He was a top lightweight and then the Hughes win threw him into the P4P rankings in a BIG way. He lost to a heavyweight, in some eyes that wouldn't even be considered. It's a no lose fight, the trouble he caused showed how amazing he is P4P.

After the two losses he could have been on a down but avenging a loss historically and currently did a lot for him.

Remember we are talking about him being P4P on paper. If we are talking about him on tape, then he just ridiculous.

[achillesthegreat]

He has done nothing recently to warrant being pound for pound best, you're mentioning stuff a long time ago at LW that doesn't apply to P4P rankings right now. That's like mentioning Roy Jones as P4P because of what he did at MW and SMW. BJ has looked not so good lately, and even with his skills, he doesn't do enough with them, by that I mean he doesn't win the fights that he needs to. He has NO CASE for P4P #1.
Avenging a loss. Leading v Hughes and taking GSP to a SD.

Agreed the losses hit him but I think the loss brought him back big time.

Jones did get immense credit off of what he did at 160. When he beat X, X wasn't a top 5 all time middle yet no one ranked X above him when they were both winning.

[BewareofDawg]

What he's done lately? He showed early in his fights with Hughes and GSP, while giving up size and strength, that he was clearly the more skilled fighter in both fights. He didn't just beat Pulver, he dominated him. He has never been outclassed, and really in Pulver I, Hughes and GSP he really beat himself by either not being in proper shape physically or mentally. In a "P4P Rankings" yes you need to continually prove yourself by WINNING, but there is no denying that he is, regardless of what he does, one of the most skilled and capable MMA fighters alive. Lets not forget that an argument can be made that he actually won the GSP fight, it was very close and I don't think there is any objection to saying that he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a class above Hughes in every category but Stamina and Strength....but P4P is a different story since Hughes is clearly the bigger guy.

[ufoalf]

It's really a dead argument. BJ can't make a case for #1 p4p.

[BewareofDawg]

It's really a dead argument. BJ can't make a case for #1 p4p.
He's in a position to be there in 1 or 2 fights though. He can very feasibly win the lightweight title in his next fight and then go avenge his loss to GSP or Hughes. He then steps into #1 or #2 depending on what Fedor does in the meantime