Whitaker v Armstrong 147 lbs

[Bill Butcher]

15 rounds.....

Lets say the Pernell Whitaker of the Chavez fight vs the Henry Armstrong of the Ross fight.

Brilliant clash of styles, hard to call... Im taking Armstrong in a close fight that was just about even in rd 12 or 13, I think Armstrong takes the last 2 rds to win the fight.

Apologies if this fight has been done before, Ive never seen or thought of it before.


:good

[OBCboxer]

This is tough to call. I'll go with Armstrong by a close decision. It would be too hard for Pernell to keep Hank off of him and Armstrong has a nonstop workrate. I think Armstrong would outwork him.

[Joe E]

Armstrong. The Man won over 50 fights at Welter and had 39 KO victories. 147 wasn't Whitakers best and he certainly wasn't strong at that weight. Armstrongs' constant pressure and swarming style would certainly carry him to a UD but if Whitaker tires late a KO isn't out of the queston.

[Sister Sledge]

Tough fight. Whittaker was great, but this wasn't his best weight. Amrstrong was a buzzsaw and I believe he could outwork Pernell by split decision.

[My2Sense]

Neither one really was at his best at 147. Whitaker was at his best at 135, and Armstrong peaked around what would today be jr. lightweight.

At any weight though, I'd go with Armstrong, with his relentless aggression and workrate being the key difference. I think Armstrong had more to foil Whitaker's style than vice versa. Plus Armstrong was much more dominant and impressive shutting down Ross IMO than Whitaker was in unofficially outboxing Chavez.

[sweet_scientist]

Neither one really was at his best at 147. Whitaker was at his best at 135, and Armstrong peaked around what would today be jr. lightweight.

At any weight though, I'd go with Armstrong, with his relentless aggression and workrate being the key difference. I think Armstrong had more to foil Whitaker's style than vice versa. Plus Armstrong was much more dominant and impressive shutting down Ross IMO than Whitaker was in unofficially outboxing Chavez.

Armstrong was more impressive, but I think Chavez was more live than Ross was in their respective fights.

Anyway, I'd take Armstrong via close decision at any weight. Whitaker-Armstrong is the type of fight I would love to see because it would bring out the best of both. Neither were seriously challenged in their primes (bullshit decisions aside) and this bout would have stretched both to their limits.

[laxpdx]

My bet is on Armstrong. His unrelenting pressure would force Pernell to trade with him. Hank by decision.

[GPater11093]

i think hank was probably a bit stronger at the weight and would use it to outwork him and pressure him to a close but clear UD

[Minotauro]

I think this would probably be a better fight at 135lbs since both guys were small welters anyway I pick Armstrong via close decision.

[Bill Butcher]

Oh well, so far everyone agrees with me & says Armstrong by decision.

Whitaker was a master at outboxing guys but how do you outbox a man that just keeps coming & doesnt slow down from rd 1-15.

I give Whitaker a better chance in a 12 rd LWT fight but even then I call it 50/50.

[robert ungurean]

Armstrong would be on sweetpea relentlessly.
Pea doesnt have the power to keep him off.
Armstrong by UD.

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker by comfortable UD. Armstrong lacks the footspeed.

[GPater11093]

Whitaker by comfortable UD. Armstrong lacks the footspeed.

armstrong would be all over sweet pea he would be up close closing him down he wouldnt need foot speed

[Sweet Pea]

armstrong would be all over sweet pea he would be up close closing him down he wouldnt need foot speed

Yeah, actually he would need footspeed to, ya know, "be up close" consistently enough to do any effective work. It's not like they're gonna be fighting in a phone-booth or under special rules prohibiting Whitaker from using footwork.

[GPater11093]

i know whittaker would be moving but armstrong would be all over him and i think you underrate armstrong. and pea wouldnt be strong enugh to keep him off especially in the later rounds.

[Sweet Pea]

i know whittaker would be moving but armstrong would be all over him and i think you underrate armstrong. and pea wouldnt be strong enugh to keep him off especially in the later rounds.

Why would he need the strength to keep him off when he has the speed and footwork to do so against an Armstrong who lacks the footspeed or explosiveness to compensate?

He lacked the strength to keep bigger, stronger fighters (or at least similar stylists) than Armstrong such as Vasquez, Chavez, Nelson, etc. off him as well, that didn't stop him from giving them all boxing lessons.

[GPater11093]

suppose he could out box him but i just see armstrong just walking through his shots and outworking him

[Sweet Pea]

suppose he could out box him but i just see armstrong just walking through his shots and outworking him

That's what everyone says every time a pure boxer is matched up with a pressure fighter.

"He'd just walk through his shots!"

"He doesn't have the power to keep him off!"

When will people realize there's a whole lot more to boxing than power?

[GPater11093]

i see where your coming from but i think in this instanse it happens

[OBCboxer]

Vasquez, Nelson and Chavez fight nothing like Armstrong. I think Whitaker wins the early rounds with his defensive mastery and overall quickness, but Armstrong keeps coming forward and wears Whitaker down to get a close decision.

[pryorgatti]

Whitaker's jab was his best weapon but his GREAT BODYPUNCHING ABILITY and angles can trouble Armstrong in this matchup.

Pick'em

[Sweet Pea]

Vasquez, Nelson and Chavez fight nothing like Armstrong. I think Whitaker wins the early rounds with his defensive mastery and overall quickness, but Armstrong keeps coming forward and wears Whitaker down to get a close decision.

They don't fight exactly like him, but all 3 were pressure fighters against Whitaker, one of them far bigger and stronger than Armstrong, the other two at least the same size and more pure pressure stylists than Vasquez. Nelson hardly took a back-step all night against Whitaker, fighting at a relentless pace down the stretch but never able to maintain any kind of success. Chavez was only made to slow down and back up when Whitaker began putting the hurt on him.

Pressure fighters in general don't match up well with Whitaker (not many do to be frank), and Armstrong's style, which wasn't suited to cutting off the ring so much as tracking, wouldn't have fared much better IMO.

If a well past prime Barney Ross was able to outbox Armstrong inside and out throughout the early portion of their bout prior to fading down the stretch I'm pretty comfortable in my pick of a prime Whitaker to win a comfortable decision, considering he was not only better off the backfoot than Ross, but with an even better jab as well.

[Mantequilla]

I dunno Pryorgatti, i can certainly see the argument for Pea winning, but i doubt his bodyshots would slow or bother Armstrong in the slightest.They would just be scoring points.

I doubt even someone with McCallum-esque power to the body could bother Armstrong too much.It would likely need to be an Arguello or similarly big punching fighter.

[Bill Butcher]

Pernell Whitaker isnt a hard man to catch, he`s just a hard man to hit clean when you do catch him.

I dont see Pea using his legs like for instance the way Leonard did in the Hagler or 2nd Duran fight, I think that would be the best way to fight Armstrong but Ive never seen Pea doing that.

Armstrong - especially over 15 rds - is on your ass from the start & throws a tremendous variety of punches, even Whitaker would not escape all of them & thru the course of the fight, both men would land often but Henry would land more & inflict the more damage throughout enabling him to pull away in the later rds IMO.
A stoppage in a 15 rder is possible but unlikely, I`ll stick with Armstrong by decision. Close UD.

[Sweet Pea]

Pernell Whitaker isnt a hard man to catch, he`s just a hard man to hit clean when you do catch him.

I dont see Pea using his legs like for instance the way Leonard did in the Hagler or 2nd Duran fight, I think that would be the best way to fight Armstrong but Ive never seen Pea doing that.
Have you ever seen him fight? That was one of the best parts of his game, his ability to fight off the backfoot and keep himself out of danger for any extended period of time. That's why you never, ever saw him fighting off the ropes like you did someone like Mayweather. He did it all night long an a constantly advancing, power punching Nelson in a near white-wash boxing lesson.


Armstrong - especially over 15 rds - is on your ass from the start & throws a tremendous variety of punches, even Whitaker would not escape all of them & thru the course of the fight, both men would land often but Henry would land more & inflict the more damage throughout enabling him to pull away in the later rds IMO.
A stoppage in a 15 rder is possible but unlikely, I`ll stick with Armstrong by decision. Close UD.
Over 15 rounds Armstrong more than likely would get stronger down the stretch, but I think Whitaker would be strong enough throughout the first 12 to win a large enough amount of rounds to hold on to a decision, provided this bout is over 15 rounds in the first place.

You people act as if either Armstrong had extremely fast feet or Whitaker had cement in his shoes.

[Bill Butcher]

Fighting off the backfoot was certainly one of Pea`s more effective weapons, I was referring more to lateral movement, fast lateral movement, the sort of legwork you might see from say a Willie Pep, in & out.

I would pick Pep to squeeze a decision vs Armstrong primarily because of his legwork & defensive technique & even then the fight might go either way but I just think Whitaker gets outworked down the stretch, especially if he fights the same way he did vs Nelson.

Thats the way I envision things anyway, might be wrong, might be right, who knows.


Botswana :good

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker's legs would be a better asset to him than Pep's would the way I see it. I don't feel like being redundant so I'll just direct you to the other thread involving Armstrong where I explain my thoughts on that matter.

[OBCboxer]

They don't fight exactly like him, but all 3 were pressure fighters against Whitaker, one of them far bigger and stronger than Armstrong, the other two at least the same size and more pure pressure stylists than Vasquez. Nelson hardly took a back-step all night against Whitaker, fighting at a relentless pace down the stretch but never able to maintain any kind of success. Chavez was only made to slow down and back up when Whitaker began putting the hurt on him.

Pressure fighters in general don't match up well with Whitaker (not many do to be frank), and Armstrong's style, which wasn't suited to cutting off the ring so much as tracking, wouldn't have fared much better IMO.

If a well past prime Barney Ross was able to outbox Armstrong inside and out throughout the early portion of their bout prior to fading down the stretch I'm pretty comfortable in my pick of a prime Whitaker to win a comfortable decision, considering he was not only better off the backfoot than Ross, but with an even better jab as well.

Ross was still a 2 to 1 favorite in that fight and was beaten soundly in that fight. It was also rumored that Hank carried Ross to the finish rather than just knock him out. All I saw in the early rounds was Ross fighting off the back foot and pawing his left out without any real conviction. He would land the right a little but Armstrong was landing the cleaner shots and moving Ross back.

Hank didn't have anyrespect for Ross' power and would do the same against Whitaker since he didn't have power either. Not to mention Armstrong had a pretty sturdy chin and would not be bothered by Whitaker.

Again, if this was over 15 rounds, Pernell would take the first five or sicx rounds. Then you would see Armstrong start come in and take some of the middle rounds with Pernell winning here and there. Once it gets into deep waters it's all Armstrong to win a close decision.

[Robbi]

Armstrong would be on sweetpea relentlessly.
Pea doesnt have the power to keep him off.
Armstrong by UD.

Whitaker doesn't need power to keep him off. He's got everything else to keep him off. Speed, movement, and the ability to land punches while he's moving at the same time aka doing it simultaneously. Thats laterally or on the backfoot.

People need to realise that fighters like Duran and Armstrong aren't going to simply gamble and chase Whitaker all over the ring once they feel he lacks power. If they do that, then they are going to be getting outscored IMO. And they would also become careless if that was the case. Many fighters like Duran would be extremely concerned if they were getting outscored by Whitaker, power on his punches or not.

[Bill Butcher]

Ross was still a 2 to 1 favorite in that fight and was beaten soundly in that fight. It was also rumored that Hank carried Ross to the finish rather than just knock him out. All I saw in the early rounds was Ross fighting off the back foot and pawing his left out without any real conviction. He would land the right a little but Armstrong was landing the cleaner shots and moving Ross back.

Hank didn't have anyrespect for Ross' power and would do the same against Whitaker since he didn't have power either. Not to mention Armstrong had a pretty sturdy chin and would not be bothered by Whitaker.

Again, if this was over 15 rounds, Pernell would take the first five or sicx rounds. Then you would see Armstrong start come in and take some of the middle rounds with Pernell winning here and there. Once it gets into deep waters it's all Armstrong to win a close decision.

Thats more or less the way I see things going down.

[Bill Butcher]

Whitaker doesn't need power to keep him off. He's got everything else to keep him off. Speed, movement, and the ability to land punches while he's moving at the same time aka doing it simultaneously. Thats laterally or on the backfoot.

People need to realise that fighters like Duran and Armstrong aren't going to simply gamble and chase Whitaker all over the ring once they feel he lacks power. If they do that, then they are going to be getting outscored IMO. And they would also become careless if that was the case. Many fighters like Duran would be extremely concerned if they were getting outscored by Whitaker, power on his punches or not.

Armstrong was obviously too good to just chase Pea, he would bob & weave his way in & he would not stop for the duration of the fight, the fact that Whitaker would not hurt him is almost irrelevant, its the style of Armstrong that would trouble Whitaker more than vice versa & its not as if Armstrong had no outside game whatsoever, he did but his bread & butter was to outwork you on the inside & he would outwork Pea too, Armstrong would not be nullified in the manner Chavez was IMO.


Botswana :thumbsup

[Sweet Pea]

Ross was still a 2 to 1 favorite in that fight and was beaten soundly in that fight.Your point? He was still well past his prime and at the very end of his career, won the first 4 or 5 rounds, and faded down the stretch like I said (partly due to age, partly due to Armstrong, partly due to not having the speed or ability to box off the backfoot the way Whitaker did).

It was also rumored that Hank carried Ross to the finish rather than just knock him out.If you've seen the end of the fight, you know this is untrue. Armstrong gave him a beating down the stretch, Ross was just a tough cookie.


All I saw in the early rounds was Ross fighting off the back foot and pawing his left out without any real conviction. He would land the right a little but Armstrong was landing the cleaner shots and moving Ross back.
I don't think Armstrong was landing the cleaner shots, nor did he have a higher workrate even, which was usually always the case. Typically it took him a little while to get his stride, and after a while Ross started to tire out, having put in so much early work just trying to deter Armstrong, while Armstrong started picking up the pace.

What it all comes down to is the fact that Ross was always within range, he wasn't a mover off the backfoot like Whitaker was, and at that stage of his career, was flat out not as good as Whitaker. Ross's strengths were his jab (of which Pea's was superior) and his overall technical skills. He wasn't the pure boxer that opted to fight on the move as Whitaker was typically, and thus not as refined at this style. The fact that he wasn't as quick or elusive didn't help matters.


Hank didn't have anyrespect for Ross' power and would do the same against Whitaker since he didn't have power either. Not to mention Armstrong had a pretty sturdy chin and would not be bothered by Whitaker.
I hope I've just explained the differences well enough so that I won't need to repeat myself. Ross and Whitaker fought hardly anything alike, and power is NOT needed to "keep a fighter off". What is needed is the ability to fight off the backfoot consistently, a stiff jab and workrate to keep the opponent occupied, and masterful ring maneuverability in order to keep on the move. Unless the opponent has great footspeed or some other substantial physical characteristic, it's going to be a hard night putting in any kind of strong work.


Again, if this was over 15 rounds, Pernell would take the first five or sicx rounds. Then you would see Armstrong start come in and take some of the middle rounds with Pernell winning here and there. Once it gets into deep waters it's all Armstrong to win a close decision.
If Pernell were winning here and there after the first 5 or 6, it's likely he'd take a good 8 overall, even under your scenario, and provided the fight is 15 rounds.

[OBCboxer]

Armstrong was obviously too good to just chase Pea, he would bob & weave his way in & he would not stop for the duration of the fight, the fact that Whitaker would not hurt him is almost irrelevant, its the style of Armstrong that would trouble Whitaker more than vice versa & its not as if Armstrong had no outside game whatsoever, he did but his bread & butter was to outwork you on the inside & he would outwork Pea too, Armstrong would not be nullified in the manner Chavez was IMO.


Botswana :thumbsup

Not to mention that Armstrong can hit you successfully from medium range before he got on the inside.

[Sweet Pea]

Armstrong was obviously too good to just chase Pea, he would bob & weave his way in & he would not stop for the duration of the fight, the fact that Whitaker would not hurt him is almost irrelevant, its the style of Armstrong that would trouble Whitaker more than vice versa & its not as if Armstrong had no outside game whatsoever, he did but his bread & butter was to outwork you on the inside & he would outwork Pea too, Armstrong would not be nullified in the manner Chavez was IMO.


Botswana :thumbsup

While Armstrong was relentless, his lack of footspeed would play a factor. If he were constantly pressuring under an extremely fast pace instead of simply constantly pressuring, he'd cause Whitaker to tire out quicker (even though Pea never really had any trouble in that regard), in which case your scenario would make more sense. The thing is, Whitaker wouldn't be forced to move at such an intense pace all night rather than to simply stay on the backfoot, work behind the jab, and time him coming in with counters. The further along the fight gets, the harder that gets, and the more Armstrong comes on, but Pea should be able to more than hold his own throughout the majority of the fight, taking more rounds on effective work in the process.

That's the way I see it anyway.

[Bill Butcher]

Not to mention that Armstrong can hit you successfully from medium range before he got on the inside.

Very true, its not as if Armstrong HAD to be inside to land good punches, its just that his BEST work was done there.

Also... Armstrong wasnt easy to catch cleanly either, he had a good defence when you consider just how offensive he was.

[Sweet Pea]

Whitaker was much better on the inside than Armstrong was at mid or long range. Armstrong does get underrated defensively though.

[Bill Butcher]

Whitaker was much better on the inside than Armstrong was at mid or long range. Armstrong does get underrated defensively though.

All true.

But as you know, Armstrong was SO effective at getting inside aswell as doing damage inside that Whitaker`s `more completeness` if you will might just amount to 0. Thats might, we can only guess.

:thumbsup

[Robbi]

Whitaker IMO has the perfect style to negate almost all others. Someone like Hearns beats him, including a lightweight version if that was possible. You need to have the the height and reach over him, busy jab, also the chilling power. Armstrong and Duran aren't going to lay their gloves on Whitaker more than vice versa. He doesn't need to the power to keep both those cats off him. If he wasn't able to move laterally or on the backfoot, then yes, he would need that power.

Whitaker v Duran at lightweight. Just watch that Lion get tamed. Trust me.

[OBCboxer]

Your point? He was still well past his prime and at the very end of his career, won the first 4 or 5 rounds, and faded down the stretch like I said (partly due to age, partly due to Armstrong, partly due to not having the speed or ability to box off the backfoot the way Whitaker did).

If you've seen the end of the fight, you know this is untrue. Armstrong gave him a beating down the stretch, Ross was just a tough cookie.

I don't think Armstrong was landing the cleaner shots, nor did he have a higher workrate even, which was usually always the case. Typically it took him a little while to get his stride, and after a while Ross started to tire out, having put in so much early work just trying to deter Armstrong, while Armstrong started picking up the pace.

What it all comes down to is the fact that Ross was always within range, he wasn't a mover off the backfoot like Whitaker was, and at that stage of his career, was flat out not as good as Whitaker. Ross's strengths were his jab (of which Pea's was superior) and his overall technical skills. He wasn't the pure boxer that opted to fight on the move as Whitaker was typically, and thus not as refined at this style. The fact that he wasn't as quick or elusive didn't help matters.

I hope I've just explained the differences well enough so that I won't need to repeat myself. Ross and Whitaker fought hardly anything alike, and power is NOT needed to "keep a fighter off". What is needed is the ability to fight off the backfoot consistently, a stiff jab and workrate to keep the opponent occupied, and masterful ring maneuverability in order to keep on the move. Unless the opponent has great footspeed or some other substantial physical characteristic, it's going to be a hard night putting in any kind of strong work.

If Pernell were winning here and there after the first 5 or 6, it's likely he'd take a good 8 overall, even under your scenario, and provided the fight is 15 rounds.

The fact is, Armstrong worked Ross in that fight and it didn't take long for him to take over. He took about 11 to 13 rounds in that fight. I've seen the fight, beleive me.

Anyway, there are some questions are raised here. Can Pernell move for 15 rounds while Armstrong is walking him down? Does he have the stamina to move and put up a respectable output to beat Armstrong? I don't think he can, you think he can, so I guess we'll never reach an agreement, I think this is one of those match-ups that can go either way.

Armstrong can still hit Pernell at mid-range and catch him backing up.