Has there ever been a Sullvian vs Marciano thread or article?

[Mendoza]

John L vs Rocky? Sounds like a good one. On skills, I think Marciano had more. But I do think Sullivan had more power, durability, and stamina than anyone Rocky fought.

Who wins here? Has there ever been an article on this fantasy match up by somone who saw them both? Unlikley, but I'll ask anyway.

[janitor]

Has there ever been an article on this fantasy match up by somone who saw them both?

There was an interview with an old fella who had witnesed a Sullivan bout around the mid 20th century and he expresed the opinion thaqt he would have beaten all subsequent champions.

There has been a Sullivan vs Marcaino thread on ESB right here and now.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano by KO in 1-2 rds

[janitor]

Marciano by KO in 1-2 rds

Not going to happen.

I think Marciano would find himself prety evenly matched here both physicaly and mentaly.

[pugilist_boyd]

i think it would be a bloody war but i dont think john ever fought a powerfull warrior such as the rock and would eventually get ko,d in a bloody 10-15 round war , johns toughness is almost unmatched thou so it would be a real blood and guts war

[guilalah]

Prime vs prime, time machined together, I'd go Marciano, but probably a good fight and Sullivan a live underdog.

If they came along in the same period and peaked together, I'd pick Sullivan, Marciano a very live underdog and ready to take over if Sullivan gets complacent.

[Ted Stickles]

how can anyone know theres no footage of Sullivan fighting,just goofing around...and if his goofing around is any indication id go by Rocky in 2

[janitor]

how can anyone know theres no footage of Sullivan fighting,just goofing around...and if his goofing around is any indication id go by Rocky in 2

I will try to reconstruct Sullivan for you as best as I can from the available evidence.

Physical equipment
Sullivan was 5' 10'' and his best fighting weight was around 200lbs. Physicaly I would place him mid way between Rocky Marciano and sombody like Sam McVea. If he came along today he would probably have a career at cruiserweight then step up in weight to hunt the bigger purses at heavyweight. With modern training methods he could probably fill out to 220-230 lbs but he would have to shave off the moustache.

Style
Sullivan was a come forward ofensive fighter along the general lines of Terry McGovern/Jack Dempsey/Roberto Duran as oposed to Henry Armstrong/Rocky Marciano/Joe Frazier. Like Jack Dempsey he generaly disposed of oponents quickly but could fight a drawn out battle if he had to. Contemporary observers all agree that he used an extremely low crouch. When Terry McGovern first came onto the scene he was compared to John L Sullivan for want of a better analogue. [Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Power
All the available evidence suggests that Sullivan had exceptional power for a fighter his size. He was destroying durable fighters who were surposed to give him competitive fights. He inflicted horific injuries on oponents often caving in their facial bones like Jack Dempsey did.

I would say in general terms that his power was among the best for fighters of his weight and might be compared to Tom Sharkey, Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano

Speed
What footage we do have of Sullivan shows him long after retirment. Joe Choynski who fought exhibitions with Sullivan claimed that Sullivans handspeed was aproxim ately equal to his own. There is footage available of Joe Choynski sparring with Jim Jeffries. If Choynski was right then that would put Sullivans handspeed among the upper echelon of heavyweight champions.

Durability
Given that some of his fights lasted for hours on end we have to rank him among the more durable champions. His chin was solid but he could be droped by a clever boxer with good ring smarts and Rocky Marciano was by Archie Moore.

Conclusion
Sullivan was a wrecking machine. As a puncher he could probably be compared to Dempsey or Marciano. He was a come forward ofewnsive fighter and a well rounded finisher. It is fair to say in general terms that he was the best heavyweigfht before Jim Jeffries came allong and might have been of a similar calibre to Jeffries.

It is impossible to judge with any reliability how he would have fared against Marciano but it is probably fair to asume that he had the tools to make it competitive.

[Joe E]

I will try to reconstruct Sullivan for you as best as I can from the available evidence.

Physical equipment
Sullivan was 5' 10'' and his best fighting weight was around 200lbs. Physicaly I would place him mid way between Rocky Marciano and sombody like Sam McVea. If he came along today he would probably have a career at cruiserweight then step up in weight to hunt the bigger purses at heavyweight. With modern training methods he could probably fill out to 220-230 lbs but he would have to shave off the moustache.

Style
Sullivan was a come forward ofensive fighter along the general lines of Terry McGovern/Jack Dempsey/Roberto Duran as oposed to Henry Armstrong/Rocky Marciano/Joe Frazier. Like Jack Dempsey he generaly disposed of oponents quickly but could fight a drawn out battle if he had to. Contemporary observers all agree that he used an extremely low crouch. When Terry McGovern first came onto the scene he was compared to John L Sullivan for want of a better analogue. [Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Power
All the available evidence suggests that Sullivan had exceptional power for a fighter his size. He was destroying durable fighters who were surposed to give him competitive fights. He inflicted horific injuries on oponents often caving in their facial bones like Jack Dempsey did.

I would say in general terms that his power was among the best for fighters of his weight and might be compared to Tom Sharkey, Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano

Speed
What footage we do have of Sullivan shows him long after retirment. Joe Choynski who fought exhibitions with Sullivan claimed that Sullivans handspeed was aproxim ately equal to his own. There is footage available of Joe Choynski sparring with Jim Jeffries. If Choynski was right then that would put Sullivans handspeed among the upper echelon of heavyweight champions.

Durability
Given that some of his fights lasted for hours on end we have to rank him among the more durable champions. His chin was solid but he could be droped by a clever boxer with good ring smarts and Rocky Marciano was by Archie Moore.

Conclusion
Sullivan was a wrecking machine. As a puncher he could probably be compared to Dempsey or Marciano. He was a come forward ofewnsive fighter and a well rounded finisher. It is fair to say in general terms that he was the best heavyweigfht before Jim Jeffries came allong and might have been of a similar calibre to Jeffries.

It is impossible to judge with any reliability how he would have fared against Marciano but it is probably fair to asume that he had the tools to make it competitive. Good work Jan. :bowdown

[janitor]

Good work Jan. :bowdown

Cheers.

[Bummy Davis]

Not going to happen.

I think Marciano would find himself prety evenly matched here both physicaly and mentaly.

John L. Sullivan was one of the greatest toughman around but the were no Marciano's around then, skillwise Marciano eats him up at his own game and I see nothing in Johns resume that tells me he could beat Lastarza or Charles or Matthews or Moore...Or Walcott...I pick them all by KO over John L. Sullivan

[Bummy Davis]

John L. Sullivan was one of the greatest toughman around but the were no Marciano's around then, skillwise Marciano eats him up at his own game and I see nothing in Johns resume that tells me he could beat Lastarza or Charles or Matthews or Moore...Or Walcott...I pick them all by KO over John L. Sullivan

But I have to admit I am ignorant to that era and the quality of the barenuckle guys...John L. Sullivan was no Joke and he was great at what he did, his reflexes were great and so was his power....but I am predjudice to the era from Dempsey on

[janitor]

John L. Sullivan was one of the greatest toughman around but the were no Marciano's around then, skillwise Marciano eats him up at his own game and I see nothing in Johns resume that tells me he could beat Lastarza or Charles or Matthews or Moore...Or Walcott...I pick them all by KO over John L. Sullivan

Sullivan probably didnt beat anybody of the calibre of the best guys Marciano beat but his prime coincided with one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history. It should be observed however, that at his peak he was as dominat as Joe Louis going through the bum of the month club.

By describing Sullivan as a toughman you are way off the mark.

He was a great ofensive heavyweight, the prototype for Jack Dempsey. He was better than Corbett or Fitzsimmons and possibly as good as Jeffries.

I have outlined these arguments in mopre detail in the thread discusing Sullivans all time ranking.