Roberto Duran v.s Ike Williams

[Bad_Intentions]

135lbs who wins and how?

[WhataRock]

One of Duran's hardest H2H fights at this weight...Often gruelling and brutal.

Just think Roberto would have to much skill overall and would try to use this as much as possible rather then try to outmuscle a guy like Ike..though he will be forced to stand his ground and get into an arm wrestle at times by Williams.

Duran 9-6...or maybe closer, could be some drawn rounds here and there. Roberto would know he was in a fight thats for sure.

[Robbi]

135lbs who wins and how?

Ask Manassa and Stonehands. They'll give you the awnser.

[Sweet Pea]

Basically 50/50. Aside from maybe the man in my avatar, this is Duran's most difficult matchup at LW.

[mcvey]

Ask Manassa and Stonehands. They'll give you the awnser.
But will it be the right one?

[Bad_Intentions]

Ask Manassa and Stonehands. They'll give you the awnser.

Why don't YOU answer it?

[mcvey]

Toss up ,Duran is p4p one of the greats ,but I think his opposition at Lightweight was a little weaker that Ike's.Duran had better head movement and was probably faster getting into range,Ike may have had more power and strength.Ike threw jabs on his way in sometimes tripling up with it ,he liked to throw short right uppercuts to the heart and quick hooks to body and head.Duran wrote the book on inside work,he knew where to hit you and when ,and his marvellous head movement took the a steam of punches as he came in,both had serious power with Ike being the more methodical finisher.Duran seemed to take it as a personal affront if you entered the ring with him ,but fast boxers could nullify his offense,guys like Fernandez and the Viruet Brothers gave him pause for thought ,and a game Bizarro took a lot of punishment before folding. Ike was built solid from the waist up ,with quite slender legs ,Duran was stockier and quick.I have a slight bias towards Ike ,but they would split a series imo.Duran ranks higher in boxing history because of his acheivements at higher weights ,but apart from Leonard and Gans ,there are not many lightweights I would bet on to beat Ike ,including Armstrong.I just watched Ike against Bolanos,courtesy of Raging Bull,good fight!

[Robbi]

Why don't YOU answer it?


It seems that it bothers you quite a bit that I never awnsered it. So I won't give an awnser. :good

[The_Hitman92]

I'll stick my kneck out and go for a Duran UD win. I think he would have to much at 135ibs for Ike.

[laxpdx]

Ike would give Duran problems like no other LW, as he has a nastiness and punching ability to match Cholo's. This would arguably be the best LW bout of all-time. One of them, anyway. Ike has a slight edge in power, both can slug it out, but the defensive edge would go to Duran. Mix all of this and the result, IMO, is Roberto by SD.

[My2Sense]

I've always thought Williams had a great style to foil Duran. Duran tended to leave his body wide open as he came in swinging, but no other lightweights he fought had the power or tools to really take advantage of it. IMO Williams could well be the guy to get in under his punches and bang him in the body. It would be interesting to see how Duran handles a fellow lightweight who could possibly match him on the inside. I don't think Duran could get away with boxing and countering him from the oustide the way he did in the third fight with DeJesus either.

[laxpdx]

I've always thought Williams had a great style to foil Duran. Duran tended to leave his body wide open as he came in swinging, but no other lightweights he fought had the power or tools to really take advantage of it. IMO Williams could well be the guy to get in under his punches and bang him in the body. It would be interesting to see how Duran handles a fellow lightweight who could possibly match him on the inside. I don't think Duran could get away with boxing and countering him from the oustide the way he did in the third fight with DeJesus either.

I did pick Duran to win by narrow SD....however, the more information I get, it seems to me Williams just might be the guy at LW who edges Duran.

[teeto]

As great as Williams was, i always felt that the factor that swings this ever so slightly in Duran's favour is that Williams wasnt the most mobile of guys. Dont get me wrong the man could box, he was more looking for the range with his jab and then exploding on you though. And he could possibly beat any lightweight by figting his own A-game. But i feel if pressed to pick then as that distance is closed, which it will be, and both men work, Roberto can do what we've all seen him do and win this one. What a high-paced fight by the way, would be amazing, Duran beter beware of them hard hitting flurries that can act as counters on the inside, but he was so fluid that i feel he comes out on top.

[Stonehands89]

Ike Williams was 23 in ’44 when Charles Jones told the press that Ike Williams “is the best fighter at Stillman’s”. Jones was the manager of lightweight champion Sammy Angott –who also trained at Stillmans when he said this.

He came along during the golden era and competed against a traffic jam of serious LWs including Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Tippy Larkin, Jimmy Carter, and a man who may have been among the best ever until his career ended with a detached retina -the teenage sensation Wesley Mouzon. Williams was also good enough to put Gavilan down in an over the weight match and fight WWs like Honey Boy Bratton, Joe Miceli, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner and Carmen Basilio.

Bob Mongomery said "Oh, he was tough, but Ike Williams was the toughest. Did you ever see anyone better than him? He was a great boxer and puncher."

Beau Jack fought him about 4 times and had this to say: "couldn't get past him. The better shape I was in, the worse I got beat. I salvaged a draw in the third bout. He was a great champion."

Ike was one of the great offensive machines in lightweight history and I have difficulty recalling many who were better finishers than this man. He had an expert's sense of timing and distance, the sheer variety of his shots was matched only by how seriously he took the adage of punching through your target. He had a completely determined and coldly focused ring mentality. He was an offensive force, but he was not quite the master boxer that our nostalgia may have us believe. He was, however you cut it, a great champion. In fact he was probably better than his record suggests because you can count on his having to carry some guys for his management. He was a connected fighter. The wiseguys owned him through Blinky Palermo. (And they fleeced him.)

Highly skilled boxers could deal with Ike Williams. Willie Joyce, who was a quick, and agile fighter with a good jab, almost stopped Ike in '45. Ike was the declared puncher in the bout in the last round of their rubber match.* Joyce (who was anything but a puncher) took 3 out of 3.
Williams was not always defensively aware or careful, tending to drop his hands to load up with uppercuts while in too close, though his chin was decent --not great but decent. Montgomery stopped a green version (although he was green to) by "plowing him with right uppercuts" but you can count on it having more to do with the level of Mongomery's skill. Surprisingly, Gene Burton who was listed at 5'4 and 1/2 to Ike's 5'9 beat Ike. Perhaps Burton's trainer -George Gainford- had something to do with that, perhaps it was a dive. I can't speak on it except to say that Burton was a boxer, not a puncher. Then you have Gavilan, who although larger than Ike, was a great boxer. George Costner was almost blind in one eye when he beat Williams, and he was a boxer-puncher of no little skill. Freddie Dawson (who campaigned in Australia after getting blackballed here) combined good speed and power and was able to fight Ike to a draw.

Williams was, by all accounts, fierce on the night he defended his title against a top contender named Enrique Bolanos in '49. The fight was a massacre over 4 rounds. Ike was 26. Put that machine against the Duran of DeJesus III. Duran was also 26.
I'd sell my wife into prostitution to see this fight.

...Any good handicapper would favor the Hands of Stone here. Ike had some trouble with guys who had considerable ring generalship... well-rounded guys. This is not necessarily to say that mobility is key because it is apparant that skill is the problem for Ike. He looked excellent against Jack, and his ability to handle Montgomery as he did is excellent, but it is clear that Ike stumbled a bit against boxer-punchers and ring generals. This not to say that Duran and everyone else didn't but Duran's level of skillful aggression exceeded anyone that Ike ever fought and could be expected to cause problems for Ike in terms of how effective that thunderous offense of his would be. Add to that the probability that Duran would take Ike's shots better than Ike would take Duran's shots --and that Duran would land more on Ike than Ike would land on Duran.
Some of the posts on this site make it close because they overlook not only Duran's defense (which was great) but his uncanny ability to combine offense and defense simultaneously while coming forward (which was a rare ability). Ike could not match that. Ike threw blistering combinations, but he was also accepting shots in return because he was concentrating on landing and less so on defending. At his best, Duran was capable of both.

Duran could match or almost match Ike in all those places where Ike was exceptional -blistering offense, punching power, body punching, infighting, stamina, etc... only Duran had more dimensions. He had a better defense, a better chin, and when you factor in that Duran was banging around in there against giants at an age beyond Ike's retirement at 33, you cannot say that Ike was stronger. Duran was stronger. Period.

I'm partial to fighters from the 40s. They were better then. But there are exceptions in modern days and Duran is one of them. Remember that swirling around between Duran's ears was a century of knowledge that he got from Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown -two reasons why the golden era was golden.

I like Duran, inside the distance for the reasons stated.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

* Williams lost a close one to Joyce, and fought him twice more inside of a year in grueling bouts. Ike, fought a total of 14 times between November of '44 and November of '45 -including bouts against Angott in September and Mouzon in November. And he tore an abdominal muscle against Angott and STILL was fighting Mouzon two months later. These indicate big differences between then and now.

[Robbi]

Ike Williams was 23 in ’44 when Charles Jones told the press that Ike Williams “is the best fighter at Stillman’s”. Jones was the manager of lightweight champion Sammy Angott –who also trained at Stillmans when he said this.

He came along during the golden era and competed against a traffic jam of serious LWs including Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Tippy Larkin, Jimmy Carter, and a man who may have been among the best ever until his career ended with a detached retina -the teenage sensation Wesley Mouzon. Williams was also good enough to put Gavilan down in an over the weight match and fight WWs like Honey Boy Bratton, Joe Miceli, Chuck Davey, Gil Turner and Carmen Basilio.

Bob Mongomery said "Oh, he was tough, but Ike Williams was the toughest. Did you ever see anyone better than him? He was a great boxer and puncher."

Beau Jack fought him about 4 times and had this to say: "couldn't get past him. The better shape I was in, the worse I got beat. I salvaged a draw in the third bout. He was a great champion."

Ike was one of the great offensive machines in lightweight history and I have difficulty recalling many who were better finishers than this man. He had an expert's sense of timing and distance, the sheer variety of his shots was matched only by how seriously he took the adage of punching through your target. He had a completely determined and coldly focused ring mentality. He was an offensive force, but he was not quite the master boxer that our nostalgia may have us believe. He was, however you cut it, a great champion. In fact he was probably better than his record suggests because you can count on his having to carry some guys for his management. He was a connected fighter. The wiseguys owned him through Blinky Palermo. (And they fleeced him.)

Highly skilled boxers could deal with Ike Williams. Willie Joyce, who was a quick, and agile fighter with a good jab, almost stopped Ike in '45. Ike was the declared puncher in the bout in the last round of their rubber match.* Joyce (who was anything but a puncher) took 3 out of 3.
Williams was not always defensively aware or careful, tending to drop his hands to load up with uppercuts while in too close, though his chin was decent --not great but decent. Montgomery stopped a green version (although he was green to) by "plowing him with right uppercuts" but you can count on it having more to do with the level of Mongomery's skill. Surprisingly, Gene Burton who was listed at 5'4 and 1/2 to Ike's 5'9 beat Ike. Perhaps Burton's trainer -George Gainford- had something to do with that, perhaps it was a dive. I can't speak on it except to say that Burton was a boxer, not a puncher. Then you have Gavilan, who although larger than Ike, was a great boxer. George Costner was almost blind in one eye when he beat Williams, and he was a boxer-puncher of no little skill. Freddie Dawson (who campaigned in Australia after getting blackballed here) combined good speed and power and was able to fight Ike to a draw.

Williams was, by all accounts, fierce on the night he defended his title against a top contender named Enrique Bolanos in '49. The fight was a massacre over 4 rounds. Ike was 26. Put that machine against the Duran of DeJesus III. Duran was also 26.
I'd sell my wife into prostitution to see this fight.

...Any good handicapper would favor the Hands of Stone here. Ike had some trouble with guys who had considerable ring generalship... well-rounded guys. This is not necessarily to say that mobility is key because it is apparant that skill is the problem for Ike. He looked excellent against Jack, and his ability to handle Montgomery as he did is excellent, but it is clear that Ike stumbled a bit against boxer-punchers and ring generals. This not to say that Duran and everyone else didn't but Duran's level of skillful aggression exceeded anyone that Ike ever fought and could be expected to cause problems for Ike in terms of how effective that thunderous offense of his would be. Add to that the probability that Duran would take Ike's shots better than Ike would take Duran's shots --and that Duran would land more on Ike than Ike would land on Duran.
Some of the posts on this site make it close because they overlook not only Duran's defense (which was great) but his uncanny ability to combine offense and defense simultaneously while coming forward (which was a rare ability). Ike could not match that. Ike threw blistering combinations, but he was also accepting shots in return because he was concentrating on landing and less so on defending. At his best, Duran was capable of both.

Duran could match or almost match Ike in all those places where Ike was exceptional -blistering offense, punching power, body punching, infighting, stamina, etc... only Duran had more dimensions. He had a better defense, a better chin, and when you factor in that Duran was banging around in there against giants at an age beyond Ike's retirement at 33, you cannot say that Ike was stronger. Duran was stronger. Period.

I'm partial to fighters from the 40s. They were better then. But there are exceptions in modern days and Duran is one of them. Remember that swirling around between Duran's ears was a century of knowledge that he got from Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown -two reasons why the golden era was golden.

I like Duran, inside the distance for the reasons stated.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

* Williams lost a close one to Joyce, and fought him twice more inside of a year in grueling bouts. Ike, fought a total of 14 times between November of '44 and November of '45 -including bouts against Angott in September and Mouzon in November. And he tore an abdominal muscle against Angott and STILL was fighting Mouzon two months later. These indicate big differences between then and now.

Nice analysis. :good

[Robbi]

Some of the posts on this site make it close because they overlook not only Duran's defense (which was great) but his uncanny ability to combine offense and defense simultaneously while coming forward (which was a rare ability).

IMO, this is exactly what made Duran so effective. He perfected combining his offense and defense better than any fighter I have ever witnessed. I've stated this often about him. He was the best defensive fighter ever for one who was so aggressive. During the early 70's when he first became lightweight champion he never quite grasped his defense the way he would late in his reign and beyond. The recklessness of his early days would gradually vanish as he gained experience. Brown and Arcel also had a lot to do with Duran's superb ability to attack and think about the offense coming his way. They never wanted him to go into full defensive mode where he was covering up and not countering. They both dealt with his rawness as a fighter like two scientists. Tame the rawness and refine him technically.

Duran's third fight against De Jesus, Palamino and Leonard are the ones that really define his style and overall effectiveness around his prime.

[Sweet Pea]

Great posts by the both of you. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly think Duran looked better against Palomino and Leonard at WW than in his third fight with Dejesus at LW, which usually gets so much praise.

[sweet_scientist]

Great posts by the both of you. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly think Duran looked better against Palomino and Leonard at WW than in his third fight with Dejesus at LW, which usually gets so much praise.

I think I join you in that minority.

Not really because I think Duran was a better fighter at welterweight, it's just that I think he hardly ever red-lined his game at lightweight.

[WhataRock]

I always took for granted that because Dejesus III was probably his best performance at his best weight, it was basically Roberto at his finest.

But no doubt Leonard is his best win in terms of legacy and against Palomino he just looked superb and that is actually is one of my favourite Duran fights to watch because I find I can squeeze the 10 rounds in more often...I will probably always consider DeJesus III his pinnacle performance because for so long I just thought it was but you guys have really got me reconsidering that.

[Robbi]

Duran wasn't on De Jesus' chest for any sustained spells if memory serves me correctly. He was mainly on the outside for the vast majority of the fight. He ocassionly dropped inside, punched to the body and head, then quickly increased the range. His jab was certainly used more throughout that particular fight than the Palamino and Leonard contests. His punch economy was rather flawless to say the least. Very seldom was he coming forward at full throttle.

It's certainly a fight which highlights Duran's patience, ring generalship, boxing ability, defense, and calculated attacking.

[sweet_scientist]

Duran wasn't on De Jesus' chest for any sustained spells if memory serves me correctly. He was mainly on the outside for the vast majority of the fight. He ocassionly dropped inside, punched to the body and head, then quickly increased the range. His jab was certainly used more throughout that particular fight than the Palamino and Leonard contests. His punch economy was rather flawless to say the least. Very seldom was he coming forward at full throttle.

He did look almost seamless, but at the same time, I didn't see the intensity there he showed against Leonard for instance. Why? He didn't have to. He was handily in control the whole way through.

Even in the second Dejesus fight, the intensity was there, but the defense wasn't and largely I think it was due to disdain. Duran just thought I'm going to outgut this guy and I don't care what's thrown back at me, it's irrelevant.

The Leonard fight brought out the best in him because he was facing such a threat. He red-lined his game right there.

I think it would have been scary to see Duran if he had a Whitaker to contend with at lightweight.

Likewise though, I think it would have been scary to see what a prime Pea would have done if facing a pumped up Duran at 135.

[Stonehands89]

Great posts by the both of you. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly think Duran looked better against Palomino and Leonard at WW than in his third fight with Dejesus at LW, which usually gets so much praise.

I think I join you in that minority.

Not really because I think Duran was a better fighter at welterweight, it's just that I think he hardly ever red-lined his game at lightweight.
I think that it depends on how you look at it.

The Lightweight division was Duran's division... in my opinion, he owned that weight class against anyone, ever. Duran was the ultimate lightweight fighter, the most dangerous combination of skill and ferocity there ever was --with the best corner of any other LW to boot. Also, against LWs, Duran was almost always the stronger man in there. Hector Thompson, an Australian aborigine Duran fought in 1973, may have been the only exception.

Duran did not have the physical disadvantages he would forever after he left the LW division... and remember, his height and reach were average even at LW.

However, Duran was never more inspired in his life than he was when he faced Leonard in June of '80. He was 29 years old and at the peak of his puglistic powers. That was his peak fight in my opinion, but it was against a larger man and he was in a division 12 lbs north of where he actually belonged.

Perhaps a good question that can help you decide when Duran was more formidable may be "how many LWs could beat 1978 Duran vs. how many WWs could beat 1980 Duran."

[Robbi]

He did look almost seamless, but at the same time, I didn't see the intensity there he showed against Leonard for instance. Why? He didn't have to. He was handily in control the whole way through.

Even in the second Dejesus fight, the intensity was there, but the defense wasn't and largely I think it was due to disdain. Duran just thought I'm going to outgut this guy and I don't care what's thrown back at me, it's irrelevant.

The Leonard fight brought out the best in him because he was facing such a threat. He red-lined his game right there.

I think it would have been scary to see Duran if he had a Whitaker to contend with at lightweight.

Likewise though, I think it would have been scary to see what a prime Pea would have done if facing a pumped up Duran at 135.

The hostilities during the build-up to the third De Jesus fight far exceeded the two previous fights. Duran was in the gym and had a Puerto Rican sparring partner who said a couple of things towards him that he found offensive. All hell broke loose and Duran, amazingly, took his gloves off and attacked the sparring partner and his trainer. It was meant to have been a full scale riot inside the gym for as long as it lasted.

PS: I have the full article and all the details on that bust-up inside the gym. Pretty funny. I'll try and fetch it from my cupboard sometime.

And I'm sure himself and De Jesus were fighting at the weigh-in before their third fight. He probably had even more distain inside him coming into that fight than the second one.

The intensity was there like never before, but he just fought in a very disciplined way. Distain? Yes, but controlled and almost hidden.

[sweet_scientist]

The hostilities during the build-up to the third De Jesus fight far exceeded the two previous fights. Duran was in the gym and had a Puerto Rican sparring partner who said a couple of things towards him that he found offensive. All hell broke loose and Duran, amazingly, took his gloves off and attacked the sparring partner and his trainer. It was meant to have been a full scale riot inside the gym for as long as it lasted.

PS: I have the full article and all the details on that bust-up inside the gym. Pretty funny. I'll try and fetch it from my cupboard sometime.

And I'm sure himself and De Jesus were fighting at the weigh-in before their third fight. He probably had even more distain inside him coming into that fight than the second one.

The intensity was there like never before, but he just fought in a very disciplined way. Distain? Yes, but controlled and almost hidden.

Yes, but don't forget that Duran actually lost the first fight to DeJesus. You don't think that would have stoked the embers of revenge just a little?

Talk is one thing, when you get beaten up it's another.

In any case, I think DeJesus was a little spent by the time of the third fight, and Duran didn't have to push himself to the limit to get the better of him. It was obvious to me that Duran could have upped the ante in the third fight if he had to. He was in cruise control though, and flowing nicely.

[Robbi]

Yes, but don't forget that Duran actually lost the first fight to DeJesus. You don't think that would have stoked the embers of revenge just a little?

Obviously. However, more 'needle' was between them leading up to the third fight. Evening the score was imprortant to him, no question. But coming out of the series 2-1 was maybe as equally as motivational. Duran definitely had more distain built up inside him for the third fight. Perhaps it wasn't burning as wildly as it was throughout the second fight. Certainly during the fight it wasn't. He was more experienced and controlled as a fighter within the ropes.

[Sweet Pea]

I think the fact that the fight was at 147, above Duran's best weight, and against the second best WW of all time makes it all the more impressive. But moreso than anything, it was simply the skillset and effectiveness he showed throughout the fight, particularly on the inside, where he did the best work I've ever seen a fighter do.

Also, I actually think Dejesus II was arguably a better performance, and that his defense in that fight was underrated. His greater offensive output makes that a bigger favorite of mine than the third fight. Duran had a lot of great performances at LW as he was ad******g through different styles and stages of his development.

[mcvey]

Great posts by the both of you. I know I'm in the minority here, but I honestly think Duran looked better against Palomino and Leonard at WW than in his third fight with Dejesus at LW, which usually gets so much praise.
But we are matching him at Lightweight.Not at Welter.

[Shake]

The last thirty seconds. Round 2. Brawl in Montreal. Talk about defense and offense flowing together while coming forward.

I remember Duran advancing with a sort of clawing powerless left to the head, and Leonard leaned back in a herky-jerky way, just a tad to fiercely and an early indicator he was gunshy, then came back with a wild left hook. The calm, matter-of-fact way in which Duran ducked under the hook while already throwing a hard right to the body is beautiful. Just so fluid. Leonard steps back after soundly losing the exchange, Duran steps in leisurely -- range finder jab, BAM -- overhand right. Leonard falls into the ropes. Next order of business - Duran pushes Leonards arms down. Leonard can't go any way but hook and that he does -- everything he has into it, too, but Duran seemed to already be ducking before the punch was even visible. Not dipping far -- just enough to slip it cleanly. Economical. Precise. Pugilistic poetry.

Art in the square ring.

(I am aware I have a dysfunctional affinity for Duran in the ring -- sue me :smooch)

[sweet_scientist]

I think that it depends on how you look at it.

The Lightweight division was Duran's division... in my opinion, he owned that weight class against anyone, ever. Duran was the ultimate lightweight fighter, the most dangerous combination of skill and ferocity there ever was --with the best corner of any other LW to boot. Also, against LWs, Duran was almost always the stronger man in there. Hector Thompson, an Australian aborigine Duran fought in 1973, may have been the only exception.

Duran did not have the physical disadvantages he would forever after he left the LW division... and remember, his height and reach were average even at LW.

However, Duran was never more inspired in his life than he was when he faced Leonard in June of '80. He was 29 years old and at the peak of his puglistic powers. That was his peak fight in my opinion, but it was against a larger man and he was in a division 12 lbs north of where he actually belonged.

Perhaps a good question that can help you decide when Duran was more formidable may be "how many LWs could beat 1978 Duran vs. how many WWs could beat 1980 Duran."

Obviously Duran would be more formidable at lightweight due to strength/power issues, but my point is merely that he never really redlined his abilities at lightweight because he was so comfortably above his foes. That's why I said that if he had a guy at lightweight that could REALLY push him to the limit we would have seen a Duran even better than the Duran who did push himself to the limit at 147 against Ray.

I also think Pernell Whitaker would have been capable of some freaky stuff at lightweight if we saw him with a great fighter there to push him to reveal everything that he had. We almost had it with Chavez but the WBC and Jose Suliaman screwed Pea out of the title, Julio faced Ramirez instead, moved up to 140 and the rest is history.

[Stonehands89]

Obviously Duran would be more formidable at lightweight due to strength/power issues, but my point is merely that he never really redlined his abilities at lightweight because he was so comfortably above his foes. That's why I said that if he had a guy at lightweight that could REALLY push him to the limit we would have seen a Duran even better than the Duran who did push himself to the limit at 147 against Ray.

I also think Pernell Whitaker would have been capable of some freaky stuff at lightweight if we saw him with a great fighter there to push him to reveal everything that he had. We almost had it with Chavez but the WBC and Jose Suliaman screwed Pea out of the title, Julio faced Ramirez instead, moved up to 140 and the rest is history.
Don't get me wrong, I see both points, but was thinking out loud about it.

Duran really hated Leonard for a while there, probably right up until the moment he left the ring in Montreal. That was monster motivation that he would never have again. And he may have not had that level of motivation for anyone else given the circumstances surrounding Duran's envy of Leonard's golden celebrity.