Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

[quintonjacksonfan]

for their wins against McCall 2 or Duran 2. Both guys quit and it wasn't from

taken much punishment. Did Lewis or Leonard do anything that made them fold

I'm just curious if those should be considered quality wins

[JohnThomas1]

I give them plenty of credit.

[Sonny's jab]

Well, I give them some credit. They proved better by not quitting.

Same applies to Clay against Liston.

I'd rather forget those fights, they were all completely farces but Clay, Leonard and Lewis were not at fault, and Liston, Duran and McCall were to blame, so it counts for something.

[achillesthegreat]

I give them alot, if not full credit.

Both showed themself to be the superior fighter prior to Duran and McCall falling apart.

Duran was consistently having weight issues and being 'off'. Those are the common excuses and there are consistent examples of this in his career. Same with McCall. McCall has broken down numerous times in numerous big fights and has still won.

[Raggamuffin]

McCaal didn't quit.
He suffered a nervous breakdown and the ref stopped it due to crying in the ring !!

[sweet_scientist]

I think Leonard made Duran snap.

I don't think Lewis made McCall snap. He seemed pretty fucked up before he even got in the ring. of course you could say the same about Duran, but I don't think Duran quits if Ray didn't clown him. McCall may have quit no matter who he was facing that night.

Could be wrong though.

[Doppleganger]

McCaal didn't quit.
He suffered a nervous breakdown and the ref stopped it due to crying in the ring !!

Well he was crying at the start of the first fight too. Perhaps McCall gave up when he realised he wasn't going to catch Lennox walking forward onto one of his bombs this time. :hey

[JohnThomas1]

Well he was crying at the start of the first fight too. Perhaps McCall gave up when he realised he wasn't going to catch Lennox walking forward onto one of his bombs this time. :hey

When McCall realised Steward had shored up Lennox's defensive flaws to the right hand the tears were always going to keep flowing, unlike fight 1

:lol:

[Duodenum]

Yeah, I give SRL all the credit in the world for what happened to Duran in the SupperDome. Ray knew that Duran always ate and drank like a pig after weighing in for his fights, so when Roberto wasn't looking, Ray slipped some Metamucil into his refreshment.

[C. M. Clay II]

Yeah, I give SRL all the credit in the world for what happened to Duran in the SupperDome. Ray knew that Duran always ate and drank like a pig after weighing in for his fights, so when Roberto wasn't looking, Ray slipped some Metamucil into his refreshment.

:rofl

[rekcutnevets]

I still don't know if McCall quit, or was playing mind games. He has made himself cry before fights start. Lewis was definitley winning the fight. I will always wonder if McCall was trying to phsyc Lewis out, and swam him Mayorga style a little later. When I was watching the fight, I was honestly expecting him to do something like that. Lennox was winning that fight until it was stopped. It is not his fault Oliver went crazy. He deserved the win.

Leonard made Duran quit, because Duran couldn't hit him like he wanted to. You can say Duran was out of shape, weight drained, not up for it mentally, to slow for a determined to box Leonard, or whatever. Leonard's biography said they saw Duran drinking a thermos full of beef broth after the weigh in. How they knew what was in his thermos, I don't know. Leonard toyed with Duran, taunted him, and was too difficult for Duran to find that night. Duran got frustrated, and quit. Leonard made Duran fold. He deserves credit for that. If Duran wasn't fully prepared, that was his fault.

[DamonD]

All I can say for certain is this...if both Duran and McCall had been belting their opponents around the ring, they wouldn't have chucked in the towel the way they did.

They got frustrated and upset due to what Leonard and Lewis were doing.
Leonard in particular should get full credit.

[Sizzle]

Yes, full credit.

In Lewis' case less only due to the lesser calibre of the opponent.

But I give him the credit he deserves for beating Oliver McCall.

[C. M. Clay II]

They're wins. I don't know what more the winners or their fans want, beyond people who have a mental disorder that compels them to revel in somebody else's misery.

Lewis is satisfied with the situation. Leonard obviously isn't. It bugs him to no end that Duran quit, so much so that he pretends that he had something to do with it. It drove Maxim up the wall that Robinson quit in their light heavyweight match. When everybody talked about Robinson quitting from the heat, Maxim kept telling everybody who would listen, "I didn't quit because of the heat." He wanted credit for Robinson quitting. Not logical. He got the win. That ought to be good enough.

Sometimes a fighter is so overwhelmed by a superior opponent that they quit because they know there's no chance. Why take unnecessary punishment in a hopeless situation? Sometimes an injured or frustrated fighter quits because he's got nothing left to prove. You can see this in Chavez's surrender to de la Hoya, or in Pep's surrender to Saddler (twice). Sometimes a fighter quits because he is too sick to continue. The two obvious examples are Robinson against Maxim and Duran against Leonard. McCall is an interesting case. He appeared to not have the mental wherewithall at the time to handle the pressure. He had a nervous breakdown. Of course he couldn't continue. It was a sad situation.

How people react to fighters who quit depends a lot on how they feel about the participants. Because most people adored Robinson, his quitting against Maxim was excused. Robinson didn't need to go the hospital or anything. He recovered in the dressing room and was seen chatting with reporters and well-wishers afterwards. Not a problem because Robinson was the idol. In the case of Duran and Leonard, however, so many people liked the flashy Leonard and hated Duran for beating Ray in Montreal that they held Duran to a different standard. For many people, Duran wasn't allowed to quit when too sick to continue. Because Leonard was an idol to so many, they spun things in the opposite way and even invented a fable about why Duran quit - and, like all good myths, that fable continues to stand in the face of all known fact.

So, yes, Leonard and Lewis get credit because they have a W on their records. They didn't lose or draw, so that's to their credit. Whether it means the same thing as a knockout or overwhelming decision victory I think is obvious: no, of course not, because it was in fact not either of those things.

People make too big a deal out of quitting in boxing. People quit in other sports because of injury or illness. There is no shame in quitting. Boxing is a dangerous sport. If you can't defend yourself because of abdominal and muscle cramps, then you should quit. Why be irrational or stubborn when it comes to messages your body is sending you? I think Archie Moore wanting to be knocked out against Marciano instead of permitting the officials to stop the fight reflects real stupidity on Moore's part. He was going to lose. Why should he continue?

It's a petty and, frankly, rather sick person who takes joy in an athlete's misery. It's a sadist who wants to see a fighter continue fighting when there's no hope of victory. Boxing doesn't need these type of people. It's a sport. Show some sportman's like character, for Pete's sake.

Uh, Robinson was in the hospital for three months after the Maxim fight. Many said he was close to death.:huh

[cuchulain]

Well, I give them some credit. They proved better by not quitting.

Same applies to Clay against Liston.

I'd rather forget those fights, they were all completely farces but Clay, Leonard and Lewis were not at fault, and Liston, Duran and McCall were to blame, so it counts for something.
In all three cases, the winners MADE the losers quit.

Had they not quit, they faced further embarrassment, humiliation and the KO.

[hobgoblin]

I still don't know if McCall quit, or was playing mind games.

please, you're talking as if mccall has an ounce of a brain. he's a crackhead - his brain like an egg yellow on the frying pan (remember that commercial about what drugs do to your brain?).

[My dinner with Conteh]

When people quit when they're way ahead, we know it's legit- that's the key difference, when they're behind (and feel they have no chance of winning) they resort to what Michael Johnson did in that 150 metres one-off race against Donovan Bailey. Here's an idea, why don't we all go by what we actually SEE WITH OUR FUCKING EYES...always works for me. :good

[My dinner with Conteh]

For the record, Robinson rested at home. Then he retired. He was never close to death.

Also, for the record, it was not the ref or the doctor who stopped they fight. They believed Robinson could continue. Robinson personally told the referee he could not come out for the next round. He walked back to the dressing room and was talking to reporters soon after.

(I swear, it's fascinating watching how myths emerge and evolve.)


Robinson: in obvious distress, Duran: apparently not. Therein lies the difference. Pepping It couldn't see the action properly from the Peanut Gallery so we can't take his word for it, sorry squire. :good

[redrooster]

Lewis didn't know the score with McCall whereas Leonard counted on Duran's condition to get him thru where he couldn't suceed the first time because Duran was too much fighter for him. it's that latin blood he couldn't handle.

it's well know he has a flair for this kind of approach. So if you really think it thru, in neither case could i give either man credit other than getting in the ring with their conquerors but Lewis had much more integrity because he didn't know something was wrong with Mccall.

[Zakman]

Well he was crying at the start of the first fight too. Perhaps McCall gave up when he realised he wasn't going to catch Lennox walking forward onto one of his bombs this time. :hey

McCall shouldn't have even been in the ring. That he was allowed to fight fresh out of rehab is a travesty. Beating up a mental cripple is hardly something to crow about.

[Doppleganger]

McCall shouldn't have even been in the ring. That he was allowed to fight fresh out of rehab is a travesty. Beating up a mental cripple is hardly something to crow about.
In hindsight he probably shouldn't have. However, Lewis still had to beat what was in front of him and not get caught walking onto a bomb as he did in the first fight. Had McCall caught him again in the 2nd or 3rd round and stopped him would we be saying that McCall never should have been in the ring? I doubt it.

[Cojimar 1945]

McCall did not quit in other fights he was losing. Even if he was behind it seems uncharacteristic of him to have a mental breakdown. Why didn't these occur in other fights where he was losing?

[mcvey]

for their wins against McCall 2 or Duran 2. Both guys quit and it wasn't from

taken much punishment. Did Lewis or Leonard do anything that made them fold

I'm just curious if those should be considered quality wins
Leonard made Duran quit,he was physching him out ,he couldnt take the humiliation,plus he wasnt in the shape he had been in Quebec,McCall had a breakdown in the ring ,and known drug problems not Lewis,s fault butneither was it to his credit really ,a different scenario to the Duran surrender.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Duran was in obvious distress. You can see it on the video of the fight.

You're using a doublestandard.


Ha ha, mental distress maybe. Tell me the moment(s) he looks in huge physical pain please and I'll review 'em.

[Bill1234]

I give Lewis about 70% credit, and Leonard 90%. Its obvious McCall was really screwed up before the fight. But Duran, I'm not so sure about. Regardless of what version of Duran you face, it is extremely hard to make him quit.