George Foreman 73 Vs Lennox Lewis 95

[newbridgeboxing]

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What would happen bewteen these to big guys ?

I see after a tactical 2 or 3 rounds, Big George would start pushing Lewis back to set up his big punches.

Even though Foreman was smaller on paper he would definitely bully Lewis around that ring, any doubters that may respond to this thread please look at Foremans fights pre 74.

Ok have it , After a nasty opening 4 rounds both fighters taking sickening combinations Lewis would feel the effect of the oncoming Foreman relentless and evil in his ways ! Foreman by 7th round KO

Hmmm View please but only who understand each fighter and have seen all Foremans fights to understand what brute this man was before typing rubbish!!

That Cold stare at the start of the fight!!!

Just how would Lewis Cope ????

[Russell]

Lewis as of 95' can't win this match-up in my opinion. Just not experienced or refined enough.

No need to look at Foreman's fights pre-74, look at him pushing him roided' up 90's heavyweights like Tommy Morrison and Shannon Briggs when he was 40 plus to nearly 50 years old.

[newbridgeboxing]

Lewis as of 95' can't win this match-up in my opinion. Just not experienced or refined enough.

No need to look at Foreman's fights pre-74, look at him pushing him roided' up 90's heavyweights like Tommy Morrison and Shannon Briggs when he was 40 plus to nearly 50 years old.

A prime lewis in your eyes then, could he beat Foreman ?

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis as of 95' can't win this match-up in my opinion. Just not experienced or refined enough.

No need to look at Foreman's fights pre-74, look at him pushing him roided' up 90's heavyweights like Tommy Morrison and Shannon Briggs when he was 40 plus to nearly 50 years old.

Why "cant" Lewis wins this match? Is Foreman invincible?


Some things to realise here:

-Foreman's only defence is his offense. Just look at any of his fights, he is wide open, is clueless about glove blocking or covering up, and very often off-balance. He can't fight on the inside or at long range; Lewis can do both, with long jabs/straight right hands or right uppercuts on the inside. Very few fighters got to fight him at medium range. Lewis will land, and land big. The opposite is not necessarily true.

-Many will say that Lewis is susceptible to getting knockout by Foreman (as is anyone), but how about the reverse? The only slugger who landed on Foreman was Lyle, and he nearly KO'd Foreman there. What he did in the 90's is pretty much irrelevant as he was a completely different fighter there; you're matching up the 70's version aren't you? On a sidenote, outside of Shavers who was knocked relatively often, Lyle never stopped a top fighter. Young knocked Foreman down and Ali knocked him out; neither are big hitters. Yes, he was tired, but who says he's not getting tired against Lewis who sets a higher pace than either and can always take a rest with his long jab.

-Foremans' biggest assets, i.e. his monumental size, strength and power advantage would no longer be an advantage against Lewis. Again, Lyle was the only one who matched him there and he nearly won.


I would give Lewis an excellent chance. He's more proven against big 210+lbs punchers than anyone else in history outside of Ali.

[GPater11093]

i think lewis woul be winning the fight easy with his jab and long range skills before foreman starts throwing wild shots and catches lewis on the chin and wins by KO

[JohnThomas1]

I like Lewis by accumulation stoppage around 6-9. His size, reach, offense, jab and better boxing ability would keep Foreman at bay until he tires. Remember, Foreman is actually fighting a substancially bigger man here and his lack of speed will show under these conditions vs Lewis. Lewis is the sharper boxer.

Obviously a man of Foreman's incredible power is a chance of winning almost anything, but Lewis showed against big men and massive punchers he has no dog and can get the job done. Foreman is the more open man here, and lets be honest. Lewis' offense matches and undeed surpasses Foreman's in some capacities.

IMO a bad matchup for Foreman. Lewis is nothing like Norton and Frazier on so many levels. Against swarmers he is close to invincible, but Lewis is an entirely different proposition.

[JohnThomas1]

i think lewis woul be winning the fight easy with his jab and long range skills before foreman starts throwing wild shots and catches lewis on the chin and wins by KO

1973 Foreman starts throwing wild shots practically from the time the bell rings in round 1 :huh

[mr. magoo]

If Lewis can weather the storm and get his game going, he wins. If he gets clocked early in the right place at the right time, he's fucked....

[JohnThomas1]

If Lewis can weather the storm and get his game going, he wins. If he gets clocked early in the right place at the right time, he's fucked....


Contrary to the popular view i don't believe it's impossible Lewis might do some frightening damage to Foreman early either. Look at his form against fellow big hitters. He gets it done, and gets it done damn fast. Obviously Foreman has a fine chin and is a class opponent but given Lewis power and Foreman's style and open chin it's not inconceivable Lewis might do some real damage.

[mr. magoo]

Contrary to the popular view i don't believe it's impossible Lewis might do some frightening damage to Foreman early either. Look at his form against fellow big hitters. He gets it done, and gets it done damn fast. Obviously Foreman has a fine chin and is a class opponent but given Lewis power and Foreman's style and open chin it's not inconceivable Lewis might do some real damage.


Agreed, but if I had to protect a guy from getting tagged early, I'd rather it be Lewis. Foreman was stopped but once in his career, and that came via exhaustion more than anything else. Not to sound like our good friend Zakman, but he has a point when he says that Lewis was Ko'd twice in the early rounds by men with average power. The right hand that McCall layed him out with is nothing like what George could throw at him. We also have to consider that the year for Lewis is 1995. Circa this period, he had the McCall loss, the close decision to a declining Mercer who's defense was no better than Foreman's, and a rather rough time with Frank Bruno, who's heart, chin and defense was not exactly stellar. that said, I concur that an early knockout for Lennox is not out of the question, but I do feel that he needs to be labeled as the more vulnerable of the two prior to about round 7.

[Mendoza]

I like Lewis by accumulation stoppage around 6-9. His size, reach, offense, jab and better boxing ability would keep Foreman at bay until he tires. Remember, Foreman is actually fighting a substancially bigger man here and his lack of speed will show under these conditions vs Lewis. Lewis is the sharper boxer.

Obviously a man of Foreman's incredible power is a chance of winning almost anything, but Lewis showed against big men and massive punchers he has no dog and can get the job done. Foreman is the more open man here, and lets be honest. Lewis' offense matches and undeed surpasses Foreman's in some capacities.

IMO a bad matchup for Foreman. Lewis is nothing like Norton and Frazier on so many levels. Against swarmers he is close to invincible, but Lewis is an entirely different proposition.

This is how I see it. To add a bit more, Lewis is a better version of Ron Lyle. Everything Lyle could do, Lewis does a bit better.....and Lyle had Foreman down and nearly out.

Foreman had major trouble with good boxers such as Ali and Young. Lewis is a very good boxer.

You have to give Foreman a big puncher's chance here, but I'll go with Lewis who is smarter, more skilled, and likely to land his best first.

If the fight goes into the later rounds, Lewis has better stamina.

[JohnThomas1]

Agreed, but if I had to protect a guy from getting tagged early, I'd rather it be Lewis. Foreman was stopped but once in his career, and that came via exhaustion more than anything else. Not to sound like our good friend Zakman, but he has a point when he says that Lewis was Ko'd twice in the early rounds by men with average power. The right hand that McCall layed him out with is nothing like what George could throw at him. We also have to consider that the year for Lewis is 1995. Circa this period, he had the McCall loss, the close decision to a declining Mercer who's defense was no better than Foreman's, and a rather rough time with Frank Bruno, who's heart, chin and defense was not exactly stellar. that said, I concur that an early knockout for Lennox is not out of the question, but I do feel that he needs to be labeled as the more vulnerable of the two prior to about round 7.

When it comes to peak Foreman, as early KO of ANYONE is not out of the question barring Ali.

[Bummy Davis]

Why "cant" Lewis wins this match? Is Foreman invincible?


Some things to realise here:

-Foreman's only defence is his offense. Just look at any of his fights, he is wide open, is clueless about glove blocking or covering up, and very often off-balance. He can't fight on the inside or at long range; Lewis can do both, with long jabs/straight right hands or right uppercuts on the inside. Very few fighters got to fight him at medium range. Lewis will land, and land big. The opposite is not necessarily true.

-Many will say that Lewis is susceptible to getting knockout by Foreman (as is anyone), but how about the reverse? The only slugger who landed on Foreman was Lyle, and he nearly KO'd Foreman there. What he did in the 90's is pretty much irrelevant as he was a completely different fighter there; you're matching up the 70's version aren't you? On a sidenote, outside of Shavers who was knocked relatively often, Lyle never stopped a top fighter. Young knocked Foreman down and Ali knocked him out; neither are big hitters. Yes, he was tired, but who says he's not getting tired against Lewis who sets a higher pace than either and can always take a rest with his long jab.

-Foremans' biggest assets, i.e. his monumental size, strength and power advantage would no longer be an advantage against Lewis. Again, Lyle was the only one who matched him there and he nearly won.


I would give Lewis an excellent chance. He's more proven against big 210+lbs punchers than anyone else in history outside of Ali.


Very good point...Foreman was very protected, when he clobbered a Shot Frazier with offence and then pummled a made to order Norton, we kind of forget the Peralta,Ali,Young fights...Lewis would need to weather the early rush and pick his spots but he could hurt Big G in the process......toss up fight at that stage...but I may favor Lewis

[Doppleganger]

What would happen bewteen these to big guys ?

I see after a tactical 2 or 3 rounds, Big George would start pushing Lewis back to set up his big punches.

Even though Foreman was smaller on paper he would definitely bully Lewis around that ring, any doubters that may respond to this thread please look at Foremans fights pre 74.

Ok have it , After a nasty opening 4 rounds both fighters taking sickening combinations Lewis would feel the effect of the oncoming Foreman relentless and evil in his ways ! Foreman by 7th round KO

Hmmm View please but only who understand each fighter and have seen all Foremans fights to understand what brute this man was before typing rubbish!!

That Cold stare at the start of the fight!!!

Just how would Lewis Cope ????

First off, I don't see how the first two rounds could be tactical as young Foreman had no idea what 'tactical' meant. He swung wild punches literally from the first bell.

Why would Foreman definitely bully Lewis around the ring? What is your basis for this? Sure Foreman was strong as hell but so was Lewis. I see no distinct advantage for either man here.

The way you've waxed lyrical about the brute that was Foreman and his cold-eyed stare tells me you've got caught up in the image of the man instead of actually critically appraising what he brought to the ring. Foreman, of course, can stop Lewis if he's allowed to land punches on Lewis's chin. But I doubt that Lewis will simply allow him to do that and he's not exactly a feather-fisted puncher himself.

IMO only a pre-exile Ali can deal with a Lennox Lewis on the top of his game and whilst the 95 version was not quite the best version I think he avoids most of the crude swings of Foreman and lands his own big artillery to stop Foreman in around the 6th round in a wild fight. Foreman does have a solid chin but the young version fought in such a wild style that he didn't have the stamina to continue for more than a few rounds. Remember also that Foreman hadn't fought anyone who would hit him like Lewis would. Frazier was a short-armed puncher but he didn't have much chance to land his bombs, especially in the first fight. Moreover, Frazier usually hit you with the leaping left hook, whereas Lewis would fire off 3-4 punch combinations.

Lewis could also keep Foreman on the end of the jab and land hard punches as Foreman came into range, enough to make him think twice just as it made the rock-jawed Tua gun-shy. In that mode Lewis would win a comfortable decision whereas young Foreman would only have one way to win and that would have to be inside the distance.

An older, slower version of Ali exposed Foreman for what he was at the time, a crude, wild slugger. I think Lewis would do the same. I also think many people watch the first Foreman Frazier fight and simply base all their opinions on that one fight alone. Just in the same way some watch the two Lewis defeats to McCall and Rahman and base all their observations on those two performances.

[JohnThomas1]

This is how I see it. To add a bit more, Lewis is a better version of Ron Lyle. Everything Lyle could do, Lewis does a bit better.....and Lyle had Foreman down and nearly out.

Foreman had major trouble with good boxers such as Ali and Young. Lewis is a very good boxer.

You have to give Foreman a big puncher's chance here, but I'll go with Lewis who is smarter, more skilled, and likely to land his best first.

If the fight goes into the later rounds, Lewis has better stamina.


Oh for sure.

What i will say for Foreman is that IMO i don't think he was quite ever the same destructive force (in his own mind too) post Ali and this showed a little vs Lyle and Young. His psyche was shattered somewhat and this meant a lot to him.

Many will debate this, and i readily accept views to the contrary, but firmly believe personally this to be the case.

[Sakura]

Prime Lewis beat Foreman by KO (2000). Early 90th Lewis get Koed

[mr. magoo]

Prime Lewis beat Foreman by KO (2000). Early 90th Lewis get Koed


Huh?

[JohnThomas1]

Huh?

That's the two Lewis versions i think.

[mr. magoo]

That's the two Lewis versions i think.

Yeah that's what I figured.

[Bokaj]

Things is, Foreman's record gainst world class fighters is quite awful for an ATG. Even in his first career it was something like 3-2 or 4-2 (depending on whether that version of Chuvalo could be called "world class" or not).

Lewis in '95 was pehaps not as good as Ali '74, but he was better than anyone Foreman beat. Sure, Lewis would face a couple of rocky moments, but I'd still give him a good chance to get through them and start taking Foreman apart in the second half of the fight.

My money would be on Lewis by UD or late stoppage. Wouldn't be schocked if Foreman scored an early KO, though.

[Waynegrade]

Guys, if McCall and Rahman could get to Lewis, and stop him. I shudder to think what a young, prime time Big George Foreman would do to him... You are talking about one of the (if not THE) hardest hitting fighters of all time. It ould only take George one shot. No Ali comparisons please, Ali had a WAY better chin and was a much better boxer than Lewis. I just don`t see anyone winnning a punch up with Foreman...

[JohnThomas1]

Guys, if McCall and Rahman could get to Lewis, and stop him.

Well how come Ruddock, Tua, Golota, Mercer, Tyson, Holyfield and umpteen dozen other big hitters didn't get to him dude?

Lets stay with the shallow thinking.

If an ordinary fighter like Lyle could have Foreman bouncing of the canvas like a yo yo and sick to the core how would he survive Lewis. Heck, if Jimmy Young gave him such horrible fits lets just shut the thread now.

[Vanboxingfan]

If Foreman lands just right, he takes Lewis out and he wins. But Lewis has more ways to win than Foreman. He too had KO power and is a better combination fighters. He's also faster and a better boxer, so he basically has more tools than Foreman. Foreman isn't winning by decision and he isn't winning a long range jabbing contest, so Foreman has only one strategy in which to win, which is to get inside and throw and hope he lands something. Lewis has multiple options in which to win. There lies the fundamental difference.

However, by the same token, if both were going to fight a prime Tyson, and although I think both would beat him, I'd be much more confident of a Foreman victory than a Lewis victory. So styles make fights.

Lastly, it's Foreman's 60th B-day today, so happy B-day George, you've had a hell of an interesting life so far and I hope it continues to be interesting and you remain healthy for years to come.

[ralphc]

The best way to beat a big puncher like Foreman is to out box him. Jimmy Young did it, so did Evander Holyfield. Could Lennox Lewis? Hard to say inasmuch as he was prone to making mistakes despite all his talent. One shot from Foreman and Lewis is history.

[Bill Butcher]

Foreman by ko

[Doppleganger]

One shot from Foreman and Lewis is history.
That's bullshit. Foreman wasn't a one-punch KO artist at world level. He'd need a few punches to get rid of a focused, in-shape Lewis. You're acting like Lewis can't take a punch when Messrs Tyson, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Mason, Tucker, Mercer, Briggs, Morrison et al smacked him flush on the chops.

They say the last thing a fighter loses is their power. If Foreman was such a terrifying hitter why in 1992 wasn't he able to stop Alex Stewart, a fighter Holyfield stopped 3 years earlier? Foreman was very strong, heavy handed but he did not spark your lights out with a single punch. Tyson, a true one punch KO artist, stopped Stewart in one round in 1990 as another comparison.

Lewis can take single shots from Foreman no problem. He can't take several shots in close proximity to each other. If that happens then he will be in trouble.

[Privatejoker]

Doppleganger.

You say Lewis can take single shots from Foreman "no problem"?

He couldn't take McCall's or Rahman's.

Do not talk about the old Foreman, this is the 1973 version vs the 1995 version of Lewis.

Foreman who be favoured to beat someone who got KO'd by McCall at that point.

The 73 Foreman was undefeated going in against a 95 Leiws who got stopped by MCall.

[Doppleganger]

Doppleganger.

You say Lewis can take single shots from Foreman "no problem"?

He couldn't take McCall's or Rahman's.
Do you honestly think Lennox Lewis would go into a fight with George Foreman either walking onto punches with his chin (vs McCall) or come in out of shape (vs Rahman)? No, neither do I. If he did, Lewis would deserve to lose. A focused Lewis can take a decent shot. If he couldn't, how come he prevailed against so many big punchers??

Let's hear your answer...

Unless you think Tyson, Tua and Bruno, to name just three, can't punch?

FYI the '95 Lewis was post McCall I and where he was now being looked after by Steward.

[groove]

Foreman KO 2. Foreman will hit Lewis hard early (that's a certainty to any fighter a 1973 foreman faces) and i think Lewis will trade or won't be able to take it and get KO'd.

[AnthonyJ74]

That's bullshit. Foreman wasn't a one-punch KO artist at world level. He'd need a few punches to get rid of a focused, in-shape Lewis. You're acting like Lewis can't take a punch when Messrs Tyson, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Mason, Tucker, Mercer, Briggs, Morrison et al smacked him flush on the chops.

They say the last thing a fighter loses is their power. If Foreman was such a terrifying hitter why in 1992 wasn't he able to stop Alex Stewart, a fighter Holyfield stopped 3 years earlier? Foreman was very strong, heavy handed but he did not spark your lights out with a single punch. Tyson, a true one punch KO artist, stopped Stewart in one round in 1990 as another comparison.

Lewis can take single shots from Foreman no problem. He can't take several shots in close proximity to each other. If that happens then he will be in trouble.

I agree with a lot of this. I too think that George Foreman's mythical punching power might be a tad overrated. He was definitely a hard hitter and a very strong man, but like you said, he was not really a true one-punch knockout fighter, especially against world class opposition. Because of Lewis' size and ranginess, Foreman would not be able to overwhelm him with his sheer size and strength like he did to JOe Frazier and even Kenny Norton.

[Waynegrade]

Well how come Ruddock, Tua, Golota, Mercer, Tyson, Holyfield and umpteen dozen other big hitters didn't get to him dude?

Lets stay with the shallow thinking.

If an ordinary fighter like Lyle could have Foreman bouncing of the canvas like a yo yo and sick to the core how would he survive Lewis. Heck, if Jimmy Young gave him such horrible fits lets just shut the thread now.
None of these guys hit like Foreman... Foreman and Shavers unquestionably the two biggest bangers all time. Did you ever see Lyle? He could crack, and on any given night, he could cause problems for many quality heavies. The 70`s heavies had the most depth of ANY era in the bigs.And I forgot, Lewis has such a great chin...

[Waynegrade]

The absolute truth is that Lewis chin was reachable, and when he fielded a bomb. There were two times he could not recover. I don`t think Foreman`s power was overated. Ali had his number, Young caught him at the tail end of his first career. Foreman could be outboxed, no suprise there. but I DO NOT believe Lennox could take and survive a clean Foreman shot. This is why when you talk about all time great heavies. Ali (like cream) consistently rises to the top. You gotta be able to take it to be considered upper echelon heavyweight champ. Foreman would definitley have the punchers chance, and Lewis did not posess a granite chin...

[Doppleganger]

None of these guys hit like Foreman... Foreman and Shavers unquestionably the two biggest bangers all time.
Why are you comparing Foreman with Shavers for pure power? Personally I think Tyson, Tua and Bruno probably all punch harder than Foreman.

[anon1]

You're acting like Lewis can't take a punch when Messrs Tyson, Tua, Holyfield, Bruno, Mason, Tucker, Mercer, Briggs, Morrison et al smacked him flush on the chops.

Since I remember the Tyson & Ruddock fights well, I will say that neither landed anything substantial on Lewis. It's not like they landed their best shots. They were too occupied getting owned by Lewis. Foreman is a completely different beast than a 2002 Tyson (or any Tyson for that matter) or Ruddock.

They say the last thing a fighter loses is their power. If Foreman was such a terrifying hitter why in 1992 wasn't he able to stop Alex Stewart, a fighter Holyfield stopped 3 years earlier? Foreman was very strong, heavy handed but he did not spark your lights out with a single punch. Tyson, a true one punch KO artist, stopped Stewart in one round in 1990 as another comparison.

C'mon you know full well that styles make fights and that there are a lot of intangibles in boxing. For the same reasons one can't explain why Tyson landed terrific shots on Holy but didn't get a KD whereas Bert Cooper did it in 3 rounds. I can't verify this but Holyfield said that Foreman hit him harder than Tyson and Holy beat both so there's no bias here.

Lewis can take single shots from Foreman no problem.

This is true to an extent. Lewis can definitely take Foreman's "shots" but he cannot take Foreman's "best shot".

I'd still have to ponder over this to decide who'd win. One thing for sure Foreman fans - don't count on a one punch KO. That's boxing adage.

[anon1]

Personally I think Tyson, punch harder than Foreman.

I don't have a verified source but I think Holyfield disagrees with you. :D

[ChrisPontius]

The absolute truth is that Lewis chin was reachable, and when he fielded a bomb. There were two times he could not recover.

Exactly. There were two times when he couldn't recover, out of something like 700 power punches he took during his career (Damond has the complete stats). And even at that, he was stopped relatively quick on his feet by a Don King referee for the McCall.


I don`t think Foreman`s power was overated. Ali had his number


He had his number? By laying on the ropes and being able to take a shot? The rope a dope, as dramatic as it was, is a horrible strategy that no other boxer ever pulled of succesfully and wasn't succesful against any other fighter during Ali's late career, either. Foreman looked awfully amateurish in being gassed after as little as 5 rounds in which his opponent forced no pace at all.


Young caught him at the tail end of his first career.


What, you mean 3 years after his peak? :lol:

Look at the film of Foreman in 73/74... his defence is noexistant, he is constantly off balance and he's wide open. Frazier and Norton are great wins, but they were home made for him style-wise. Young won every round except the 9th and knocked him down; it's not like that was a close contest.

Frazier can only fight one way (take punches early while warming up) and Norton never beat a puncher. Ali takes a good shot and knows how to box, Young, dito. Both embarrassed Foreman. Do you see the pattern? Lewis can box, punch, start fast, is skilled technically and takes a good shot. You'll probably bring up his two KO losses, your sole argument, but at the same time, he survived and beat 10 times more big hitters than Foerman did. Plus, Young had been stopped a couple of times as well.



Foreman could be outboxed, no suprise there. but I DO NOT believe Lennox could take and survive a clean Foreman shot. This is why when you talk about all time great heavies. Ali (like cream) consistently rises to the top. You gotta be able to take it to be considered upper echelon heavyweight champ. Foreman would definitley have the punchers chance, and Lewis did not posess a granite chin...

Foreman definitely has a puncher's chance, no matter who he faces. But i think that is in fact his only chance during this fight... and betting on a puncher's chance is never a wise thing to do. Foreman never was a big one shot hitter; i don't doubt Lewis could take and survive a clean Foreman shot, as he survived shots from Tua, Tyson, Bruno, Briggs, Morrison, etc etc.

[Doppleganger]

Since I remember the Tyson & Ruddock fights well, I will say that neither landed anything substantial on Lewis. It's not like they landed their best shots. They were too occupied getting owned by Lewis. Foreman is a completely different beast than a 2002 Tyson (or any Tyson for that matter) or Ruddock.
I didn't include Ruddock because he didn't land anything of note but Tyson certainly did. In round 1 and 2 he hit Lewis with several left hooks flush, one at least moving him visibly backwards. Those were full blooded punches and Lewis took the shots.


C'mon you know full well that styles make fights and that there are a lot of intangibles in boxing. For the same reasons one can't explain why Tyson landed terrific shots on Holy but didn't get a KD whereas Bert Cooper did it in 3 rounds. I can't verify this but Holyfield said that Foreman hit him harder than Tyson and Holy beat both so there's no bias here.
There's no doubt that Foreman is a very powerful puncher but his power is often attributed mythical proportions. He's just a man after all and Lewis has taken equally hard shots from big punchers over the years. I think some expect him to collapse as soon as Foreman lands. Lewis has taken 2 powerful right hands and fallen but what about all the full blooded shots he's taken flush and not gone down?

In 14 years how many times was Lewis decked? Twice...

This is true to an extent. Lewis can definitely take Foreman's "shots" but he cannot take Foreman's "best shot".
I don't see why he can't. He took full blooded shots from Tyson, Tua, Bruno etc. Is there any evidence that Foreman punched any harder than Frank Bruno? None. Whatever anyone says it's all conjecture and opinion.

[Waynegrade]

Damn, everyone is ganging up on me... The difference that I see between the Tua`s, Tysons and Bruno against Lewis. Is that a young brutish Foreman, would look to do the intimidating against Lewis. He was surly, mean and fought to punish his foes. When the ref and corner was stopping his fight with Norton. Look at the tape, you see Foreman coming over looking to give it to Norton again. I don`t feel as though Ruddock, Tua or Tyson came in against Lewis with that level of intensity. Foreman could absolutley be outboxed. But for at least 2 or 3 rds, he would push Lewis around and look to land his bombs. Lewis wasn`t just decked, he was stopped... He was out on his feet when they stopped the McCall fight, look at the tape how he was leaning on on wobbly feet when the ref was talking to him. The bottom line he was stopped, KO TKO whatever. I too think he had all the tools to take Foreman. I just feel as though for 3 rds, its a tossup to see if Lewis could get through those first few.

[Waynegrade]

Exactly. There were two times when he couldn't recover, out of something like 700 power punches he took during his career (Damond has the complete stats). And even at that, he was stopped relatively quick on his feet by a Don King referee for the McCall.



He had his number? By laying on the ropes and being able to take a shot? The rope a dope, as dramatic as it was, is a horrible strategy that no other boxer ever pulled of succesfully and wasn't succesful against any other fighter during Ali's late career, either. Foreman looked awfully amateurish in being gassed after as little as 5 rounds in which his opponent forced no pace at all.



What, you mean 3 years after his peak? :lol:

Look at the film of Foreman in 73/74... his defence is noexistant, he is constantly off balance and he's wide open. Frazier and Norton are great wins, but they were home made for him style-wise. Young won every round except the 9th and knocked him down; it's not like that was a close contest.

Frazier can only fight one way (take punches early while warming up) and Norton never beat a puncher. Ali takes a good shot and knows how to box, Young, dito. Both embarrassed Foreman. Do you see the pattern? Lewis can box, punch, start fast, is skilled technically and takes a good shot. You'll probably bring up his two KO losses, your sole argument, but at the same time, he survived and beat 10 times more big hitters than Foerman did. Plus, Young had been stopped a couple of times as well.




Foreman definitely has a puncher's chance, no matter who he faces. But i think that is in fact his only chance during this fight... and betting on a puncher's chance is never a wise thing to do. Foreman never was a big one shot hitter; i don't doubt Lewis could take and survive a clean Foreman shot, as he survived shots from Tua, Tyson, Bruno, Briggs, Morrison, etc etc.
Foreman`s punchers chance, this is what I am saying, a REAL punchers chance...

[JohnThomas1]

None of these guys hit like Foreman... Foreman and Shavers unquestionably the two biggest bangers all time. Did you ever see Lyle? He could crack, and on any given night, he could cause problems for many quality heavies. The 70`s heavies had the most depth of ANY era in the bigs.And I forgot, Lewis has such a great chin...

How could you possibly say Foreman and Shavers are unquestionably the two biggest bangers ever?

You might find some of these guys i mentioned are a lot closer to them than you realise ;)

[anon1]

Is that a young brutish Foreman, would look to do the intimidating against Lewis

not happening. lewis is too arrogant & pompous to be scared of anyone. rofl, this actually helps him. sure foreman is scarier than tyson but tyson tried to do all sorts of crazy stuff to make lewis uneasy. lewis was definitely uneasy with all that drama but 100% focused & 100% unintimidated with great confidence yet reserved caution against tyson.

[sauhund II]

OMG, more Lewis nuthugging...............and it is always coming from the same guys, over and over again.

Lewis is a A caliber fighter, no doubt, but he is very vulnerable in a shoot out and that what Foreman is going to bring for the first 6. Pure agression and non stop punches. If he gets caught like in the VK/Briggs fights and wobbles he ain't gonna get off the hook with young Georg.Period. While Foreman will get tagged too he has shown that he can take some monster shots without going down or if he gets floored he can get up, something Lewis has not been able to do. History has shown that when you knock Lemmie down he stays down. Fact.

Foreman's stamina is always brought up but Lewis was never a conditioning wonder,himself,especially if he could not impose his will/size on to his opponent and was forced to fight the other guys fight.

It makes me laugh when I read that Lewis took full bore shots from Tyson,Tua, Ruddock etc , yeah, maybe you take your rose colored glasses of, they never landed clean , mostly because they were at the tail end of their career , totally washed up or never were's who build their "dangerous" rep on loosing the big fights. LOL.

Full shot means what Tyson landed on Botha..........same punch lands on Lewis and he is counting stars, you can take that to the bank.

Early to mid 90's Lewis relied mainly on a lazy pawing jab follwed by the right, as a matter of fact it was pretty predictable. He also was more agressive and not in the same Stewart protect the chin safe mode. He also did not tie his foes up a lot when up close and his inside game was rather lackluster. Stewart polished all that up later in his career.

Young Foreman most likely will duplicate the McCall performance because Lemmie is drawn into a dog fight similar to years later in LA against VK.

History has also shown that you can get by Lewis jab, even under Stewart with relentless agression and a high punch output which puts him on the defense so he cannot cherry pick his strong right hand. See Mercer or VK fights. Once Lewis is in his rythm the puzzle becomes more complicated see the lame Rahman2 or Golata attempts who sat back and let Lemmie control the tempo.

THe key to beat Lewis is to crowd him, give him no breathing room and make him fight which will expose his achilles heel , the chin.

I believe a young Foreman/Tyson are nightmares style wise for Lewis.

[Waynegrade]

Finally some Foreman fans...

[Waynegrade]

For christ sakes, Lewis went life and death with Ray Mercer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sauhund II]

Finally some Foreman fans...
I am no Foreman fan but have issues with this comical constant over rating of Lennox Lewis. Reading some of those posts makes you wonder why on earth did he ever loose a fight or struggled with ham and eggers.

Anyway , in this scenerio , I take a young George over the early nineties Lewis.

[Doppleganger]

I am no Foreman fan but have issues with this comical constant over rating of Lennox Lewis. Reading some of those posts makes you wonder why on earth did he ever loose a fight or struggled with ham and eggers.
You may not be a Foreman fan but you are certainly a Lewis hater - why else would you post such rubbish?

[JohnThomas1]

For christ sakes, Lewis went life and death with Ray Mercer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Life and death is what Foreman went with Lyle. I'll never forget Foreman bleeding all over the canvas, prone.

[Flea Man]

I think the Lewis that came in shape in the 2nd fight against Rahman (nowhere near as good I know but Lewis was big, strong, in-shape and focused) would have the best chance to survive against Foreman.

If he can outbox Foreman and take the young man into the later rounds who knows, but let's assume Foreman doesn't get dehydrated (i.e have the fight in a regular boxing venue) Foreman would win a decision or a late stoppage.

[Waynegrade]

Prone is what Lewis was after taking a shot from the hardest hitting heavy ever, Hasim Rahman... Flat on his back. Foreman against Lyle, (who was a big hitter) was face first on the canvas . And climbed up off the deck and finished him. Foremans chin and UNQUESTIONABLY his heart are much more than Lewis had. A 45 year old heavy, light years away from his prime, takes a 9 and a half rd pounding from Moorer. And has the heart to hang in and finally find the finisher(oh yeh, forgot , no true one punch power). Its not even rational to say that Foreman has no chance in the first three rds with Lewis...

[JohnThomas1]

Foremans chin and UNQUESTIONABLY his heart are much more than Lewis had.

WTF? Since when did Lewis show any lack of heart? He was up against McCall and wanting to continue. George was beaten both mentally and physically vs Ali.


And who said Foreman didn't have a chance in the first few rounds?

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis, by 8th or 9th round TKO.

[mr. magoo]

why else would you post such rubbish?


Because it seems to be getting on your nerves.

[ChrisPontius]

Prone is what Lewis was after taking a shot from the hardest hitting heavy ever, Hasim Rahman... Flat on his back.

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[mr. magoo]

Life and death is what Foreman went with Lyle. I'll never forget Foreman bleeding all over the canvas, prone.

I understand what you're saying and realize that you were responding to Waynegrade. But, Foreman did manage to beat Lyle decisively, whereas Lewis barely edged a decision in a match that some felt he lost. Also, Lyle, although 35 years of age, was basically in his prime in 1975. Mercer was hardly peak in 1996, and coming off the worst run of his career. He entered the ring with the recent credentials of a journeyman, if we only look at what he did from about 1992-1996.

[ChrisPontius]

I understand what you're saying and realize that you were responding to Waynegrade. But, Foreman did manage to beat Lyle decisively, whereas Lewis barely edged a decision in a match that some felt he lost. Also, Lyle, although 35 years of age, was basically in his prime in 1975. Mercer was hardly peak in 1996, and coming off the worst run of his career. He entered the ring with the recent credentials of a journeyman, if we only look at what he did from about 1992-1996.

I beg to differ. First of all, the Mercer's age is deceiving because he peaked very old to begin with. You make it sound like he was 10 years past his best, while in fact he was at most four years past his peak.

Second, on coming off his worst career run: he was always somewhat erratic. Damiani gave him a boxing lesson until that lethal uppercut. Holmes schooled him even worse. Those happened in '91. Despite being 10 pounds lighter than against Lewis, he showed the same stamina problems in '91 as he did in '96.

Third, the loss to Fergusson was in '93, which is closer to his peak (1991) than to the Lewis fight. So i don't see how his recent career run was that bad; especially when one considers he gave Holyfield a really tough fight. He also developed/started using the jab much better from the Holyfield fight on.

Lastly, on Lewis winning a close decision but Foreman decisively beating Lyle, i don't think there's that much between it. Lewis nearly lost a decision, Foreman nearly was KO'd (he saved by the bell in the 4th). The thing to note here is that Lyle was the only puncher who landed on the best version of Foreman, while the same isn't true about Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

=ChrisPontius;3229962]I beg to differ. First of all, the Mercer's age is deceiving because he peaked very old to begin with. You make it sound like he was 10 years past his best, while in fact he was at most four years past his peak.


That's not what I was saying at all. In fact both Lyle and Mercer were 35 years of age when they fought Foreman and Lewis. I do however feel that Mercer had declined, and his resume looked like shit between 1992-1996.


Second, on coming off his worst career run: he was always somewhat erratic. Damiani gave him a boxing lesson until that lethal uppercut. Holmes schooled him even worse. Those happened in '91. Despite being 10 pounds lighter than against Lewis, he showed the same stamina problems in '91 as he did in '96.


True, but I think he had a bit more snap to his punches in the early 90's than he did in 1996, plus as slow as he always was, may have been a hair quicker and more effective late.


Third, the loss to Fergusson was in '93, which is closer to his peak (1991) than to the Lewis fight. So i don't see how his recent career run was that bad; especially when one considers he gave Holyfield a really tough fight. He also developed/started using the jab much better from the Holyfield fight on.



With your incredible attention to detail, If we were to switch places in this, I know for a fact that you would not hesitate to point out that:

A. Ferguson was a shot journeyman who Mercer lost to the first time and barely decisioned in the rematch.

B. His other fights consisted of a majority decision over Mark Wills and a draw with Marion Wilson.

C. His fight with Holyfield was a full year prior to the Lewis match, and Evander was more or less on the comeback trail when Ray was outboxed and even floored by him.

D. Mercer's record within a four year period going into the Lewis fight was 5-3-1-3, and had not beaten a decent opponents in nearly 5 years since his match with Morrison ( who's quality is debatable in hindsite ).

Lastly, on Lewis winning a close decision but Foreman decisively beating Lyle, i don't think there's that much between it. Lewis nearly lost a decision, Foreman nearly was KO'd (he saved by the bell in the 4th). The

I think most would disagree with you. Foreman rose off the canvas to score a 10 count knockout, and did so early. Lewis was taken to the scorecards, leaving about 35-40% of the spectators uncertain as to who the true victor should have been. I myself felt it was a draw, my friends were divided as to who they felt won. In no way shape or form is this more or even as decisive as knocking out an opponent, regardless of weather or not you were floored along the way. I will also ad that although both Lyle and Mercer were 35 years of age against their respective opponents, Lyle was arguably at a peak stage of his career. I believe he was the ring's number 5 contender or something to that effect. I don't remember what Mercer was at the time, but I seriously doubt that he was even within shouting distance of top 5 in 1996.


thing to note here is that Lyle was the only puncher who landed on the best version of Foreman, while the same isn't true about Lewis

True, but McCall was not exactly a knockout artist and he managed to Knock Lewis the fuck out, something that didn't happen to Foreman, unless you consider him getting gassed against Ali a chin issue. I personally don't....

[Doppleganger]

Prone is what Lewis was after taking a shot from the hardest hitting heavy ever, Hasim Rahman... Flat on his back. Foreman against Lyle, (who was a big hitter) was face first on the canvas . And climbed up off the deck and finished him. Foremans chin and UNQUESTIONABLY his heart are much more than Lewis had. A 45 year old heavy, light years away from his prime, takes a 9 and a half rd pounding from Moorer. And has the heart to hang in and finally find the finisher(oh yeh, forgot , no true one punch power). Its not even rational to say that Foreman has no chance in the first three rds with Lewis...
You ignore the fact that Lewis was gasping for air in the first Rahman fight, which must have had some impact on his loss. Lewis has only himself to blame for that of course. Foreman does have the more solid chin but heart??? A little unfair I would say. When has Lewis ever quit or gave up in a fight? He was trying to continue the fight against McCall when he could barely stand up! Nothing wrong with the boy's heart.

I should also point that Moorer at heavyweight did not exactly possess an iron chin. David Tua, stopped Moorer in the very first round.

[mr. magoo]

I should also point that Moorer at heavyweight did not exactly possess an iron chin. David Tua, stopped Moorer in the very first round.

David Tua was an exceptional puncher who fought Moorer when he was past his prime and on the comeback trail. Foreman KO'd a peak Moorer who had taken direct shots from Evander Holyfield, Bert Cooper and Alex Stewart, not to mention was undefeated in 35 pro fights.

[ChrisPontius]

That's not what I was saying at all. In fact both Lyle and Mercer were 35 years of age when they fought Foreman and Lewis. I do however feel that Mercer had declined, and his resume looked like shit between 1992-1996.



True, but I think he had a bit more snap to his punches in the early 90's than he did in 1996, plus as slow as he always was, may have been a hair quicker and more effective late.


Okay.:good



With your incredible attention to detail, If we were to switch places in this, I know for a fact that you would not hesitate to point out that:

A. Ferguson was a shot journeyman who Mercer lost to the first time and barely decisioned in the rematch.

B. His other fights consisted of a majority decision over Mark Wills and a draw with Marion Wilson.

C. His fight with Holyfield was a full year prior to the Lewis match, and Evander was more or less on the comeback trail when Ray was outboxed and even floored by him.

D. Mercer's record within a four year period going into the Lewis fight was 5-3-1-3, and had not beaten a decent opponents in nearly 5 years since his match with Morrison ( who's quality is debatable in hindsite ).


There is no excuse in losing Fergusson, but what i'm saying is that Mercer always has been somewhat susceptible to losing to much lesser opponents. Occasio, a washed up cruiserweight also took him to a split decision, but that was in 1989. Morrison and Damiani were beating him up until he caught them, Holmes never got caught and won a wide decision. Those were in 1992. Then a year after that, he loses to Fergusson, barely wins the rematch and draws with Wilson the year after that. Then he loses to Holyfield and Lewis.

If you want to bring up these fights to show that Mercer could be outboxed, then fair enough.

But my point is that it happened all over his career, in other words, the draw with Wilson or loss to Holyfield wasn't so much because he was old, but more because he always had been susceptible to losing those fights.

For the same reason, his record of 5-3-1 going into the Lewis fight is more a reflection of stepping up in competition and losing during his prime to Fergusson than declining ability.



I think most would disagree with you. Foreman rose off the canvas to score a 10 count knockout, and did so early. Lewis was taken to the scorecards, leaving about 35-40% of the spectators uncertain as to who the true victor should have been. I myself felt it was a draw, my friends were divided as to who they felt won. In no way shape or form is this more or even as decisive as knocking out an opponent, regardless of weather or not you were floored along the way. I will also ad that although both Lyle and Mercer were 35 years of age against their respective opponents, Lyle was arguably at a peak stage of his career. I believe he was the ring's number 5 contender or something to that effect. I don't remember what Mercer was at the time, but I seriously doubt that he was even within shouting distance of top 5 in 1996.


Mercer was indeed not ranked by Ring magazine going into their fight. Myself i thought it was a clear win by Lewis (who adopted the stupid strategy of trying to knock out someone with an iron chin), even if a very close one.



True, but McCall was not exactly a knockout artist and he managed to Knock Lewis the fuck out, something that didn't happen to Foreman, unless you consider him getting gassed against Ali a chin issue. I personally don't....

No, but Young did knock Foreman down and Lyle nearly had him out. This would be forgivable if he proved his chin against other punchers, but he didn't (i'm not including the 90's because he was a completely different fighter there).


As for McCall not being a knockout artist: he wasn't a Tyson, but he surely was a good hitter. In fact, i think he's a better puncher than Lyle. Lyle's only stoppage win against a top opponent came against Shavers (who we all knock has a very weak jaw). McCall has stoppage wins over Akinwande (his only stoppage loss), Seldon, Damiani.

[JohnThomas1]

I understand what you're saying and realize that you were responding to Waynegrade. But, Foreman did manage to beat Lyle decisively,

It didn't look decisive from where i sat. Foreman was a bee's dick off being ko'ed :huh

What about Jimmy Young then? We're dwelling on bad Lewis outings, so lets talk him.

[mr. magoo]

It didn't look decisive from where i sat. Foreman was a bee's dick off being ko'ed :huh

What about Jimmy Young then? We're dwelling on bad Lewis outings, so lets talk him.


First of all, I'm not "dwelling" on anything. Secondly, when a person says that a fighter won in either decisive or indecisive fashion, they typically mean that the outcome was either clear or it wasn't. Now I ask you, what wasn't decisive about a 10 count KO? was there any controversy involved? Was Lyle the victom of bad officiating or a premature stoppage? I think not. When a fighter knocks out another fighter, the verdict is about as decisive as it gets, regardless of what kind of hell he had to go through to reach that outcome...

[Doppleganger]

David Tua was an exceptional puncher who fought Moorer when he was past his prime and on the comeback trail. Foreman KO'd a peak Moorer who had taken direct shots from Evander Holyfield, Bert Cooper and Alex Stewart, not to mention was undefeated in 35 pro fights.
Moorer was floored in round 2 of the first fight with Holyfield, the fight where Evander suffered a 'heart attack'. In the second fight Holyfield put Moorer on the canvas no less than 5 times.

I just don't think Moorer held a heavyweight shot too well. His chin was far from iron.

[mr. magoo]

Moorer was floored in round 2 of the first fight with Holyfield, the fight where Evander suffered a 'heart attack'. In the second fight Holyfield put Moorer on the canvas no less than 5 times.

I just don't think Moorer held a heavyweight shot too well. His chin was far from iron.


1. Holyfield did not suffer a heart attack. He merely had a heart condition.

2. I'm not calling Moorer's chin "Iron". But, I think its fair to say that he could take a decent punch. Cooper, Stewart, and Holyfield were all men who could crack during the early 90's, and Moorer survived all of them.

[anon1]

Moorer survived all of them.

he also survived tua. :lol:

[mr. magoo]

he also survived tua. :lol:


It would help if people followed an entire discussion before throwing in their $0.02.

[anon1]

It would help if people followed an entire discussion before throwing in their $0.02.

i saw your point. yes there's some merit in going to those wars with heavy handed hitters like holyfield. however, NO ONE, with a decent chin, gets wiped out in 39 seconds. that just destroys credibility. i don't care how hard tua hits or what the circumstances are (besides drugs / ill health) - 39 SECONDS is 39 SECONDS.

[knn]

I want to post another viewpoint to this fight without any conclusion on my part:

Foreman 1973 had boxed 87 complete rounds, that's 2.2 completed rounds per fight.

When he met Ali, Ali had boxed 276 completed rounds, that's 6.1 completed rounds per fight. You could say that Ali's stamina was much more proven and Ali's experience was 3x bigger. We all know what happened: Foreman lost his stamina (in an even more gross fashion than Wlad vs Puritty) and was schooled by the more experienced Ali (like Wlad was schooled by the more experienced Puritty). Of course it's possible that Foreman has been drugged, but this is worth another thread.

Before his fight with Muhammad Ali, Foreman faced only the following opponents worth mentioning: Norton, Frazier, Peralta, Chuvalo and Kirkman. ALL of them are smaller than Lewis. All of them are OLDER than Foreman. ALL of them are 20-30 lbs LIGHTER than Lewis. Peralta is a natural cruiser (= incomparable to Lewis) and both fights aren't even heavyweight fights by out standards.

In other words: Foreman I has not faced ANYTHING similar to Lennox. Even more so he hasn't faced (his entire career) anything similar to Wlad but that is another thread.

The surest thing we can say: There is nothing in Foreman I's record that could hint at a win over Lennox. In fact, he couldn't KO Peralta, an opponent with a similar record like Lewis.

[ChrisPontius]

i saw your point. yes there's some merit in going to those wars with heavy handed hitters like holyfield. however, NO ONE, with a decent chin, gets wiped out in 39 seconds. that just destroys credibility. i don't care how hard tua hits or what the circumstances are (besides drugs / ill health) - 39 SECONDS is 39 SECONDS.

He was past his best at that point, but i agree to certain degree: Shavers' and Cooney's quick erasion of Norton wasn't just the fact that Norton was old; he never took a punch that well really.



Also, while he survived Cooper, he was nearly out in the opening minute of the fight (similar to the Tua fight), and was knocked down another one or two times if i remember correct. He won the fight and it was a great one, but Moorer was badly hurt by basically any punch that got through. Then Holyfield, a good but not great puncher knocks him down once when he wasn't 100%, and knocks him down several times in the rematch when he wasn't ill. Followed by that first bout, Foreman not only scores the first and only knockout victory over a significant opponent during his second career, but also the first and last one-punch knockout of his career.

Moorer was a skilled boxer with good speed, power and an akward southpaw style. But his chin mostly certainly was his weakness and by a large margin.

[Doppleganger]

1. Holyfield did not suffer a heart attack. He merely had a heart condition.

2. I'm not calling Moorer's chin "Iron". But, I think its fair to say that he could take a decent punch. Cooper, Stewart, and Holyfield were all men who could crack during the early 90's, and Moorer survived all of them.
Yeah I know it wasn't an actual heart attack, hence the reason why I wrote it as 'heart attack'.

I really don't think Moorer could take a decent shot at heavyweight. The fact that Foreman knocked him out with one punch says more for Moorer's chin than anything else.

[Waynegrade]

Jimmy Young, now that was a spoiler...

[Damo1712]

theres the possibility of Foreman gassing out in 5 to 8 rounds (like the fight vs ali) plus lewis defence is a lot better and he would take advantage of the wild shots foreman threw if this happened Lewis by ko in 10 rnds alternatively if foreman caught him flush it would be early probably 2nd rd and lewis aint getting up

[mr. magoo]

Yeah I know it wasn't an actual heart attack, hence the reason why I wrote it as 'heart attack'.

I really don't think Moorer could take a decent shot at heavyweight. The fact that Foreman knocked him out with one punch says more for Moorer's chin than anything else.


On the contrary, I think that it says more about George's punching ability, then it does anything else, and besides, a fighter who is cought at the right place at the right time can be kayoed, especially if he is facing a big puncher and is walking in towards him showing little or no respect.

[mr. magoo]

NO ONE, with a decent chin, gets wiped out in 39 seconds. that just destroys credibility. i don't care how hard tua hits or what the circumstances are (besides drugs / ill health) - 39 SECONDS is 39 SECONDS[/B].

well then, you might want to explain how John Ruiz - a prime durable heavyweight, who was only stopped once in 53 fights, only lasted 19 seconds with guess who......David Tua.....And was polished off in exactly half the time that an old Moorer on the comeback trail was...

[Doppleganger]

besides, a fighter who is cought at the right place at the right time can be kayoed, especially if he is facing a big puncher and is walking in towards him showing little or no respect.
Like Lewis against McCall, for instance?

Hey Magoo, Foreman's a powerful puncher but he's not a 'spark your lights out' kinda guy. He clubs you down. He won't knock Lewis out with one punch.

[mr. magoo]

=Doppleganger;3233474]Like Lewis against McCall, for instance?


What about it?


Hey Magoo, Foreman's a powerful puncher but he's not a 'spark your lights out' kinda guy. He clubs you down. He won't knock Lewis out with one punch.


I wouldn't favor him to do it either, but how do you know for a fact that he wouldn't?

[robert ungurean]

Foreman in 6 or under.

[DudeGuyMan]

Lewis is a legit top ten heavy ATG, but to beat Foreman he'd have to fight a near-perfect fight for every single round. Because if George gets cracking on him, well... Lewis doesn't have as bad a chin as his detractors like to pretend, but it's not a "hang in there with Foreman in a shootout" chin either.

Call it Foreman TKO5 in a jumping fight.

[rusty nails]

i think the main point in this fight is that lewis is fighting a guy similar in size, with more power, a handy boxer and absolutely no fear.. i just cant see lewis at any point being "comfortable" in there and george probably decisions him after a brutal 12 rounder

[sauhund II]

Like Lewis against McCall, for instance?

Hey Magoo, Foreman's a powerful puncher but he's not a 'spark your lights out' kinda guy. He clubs you down. He won't knock Lewis out with one punch.
lol, I am going out on a limb here but I bet that most of your Lewis "knowledge" comes from youtube...............ever seen him fight live in the nineties ?

McCall, who I have personally seen spar with Tyson or Rahman are not heavy hitters. Can they crack , sure , but they are not even in the same zipcode as a Foreman, Tyson or a Lewis right hand. Fact.

Besides the Lewis KO's both fighters have hardly ANY creditable opponents on their record who they dusted by decisive KO. Especially by ONE shot. McCall has the mega green superglass jawed Oleg and the Octopuss similar chinned Akinwande . Rahman has Sanders who he only tko'ed after a life and death struggle while the Tko was mainly stamina related .

Foreman landed on a much faster, defensive more skilled and ring savy ALi who was able to take the occasional shots due to his iron will and granite chin. I give Lewis the benefit of the doubt about the iron will but his chin is not even in the same universe as Alis. I am not even going into the bodyshots Ali took.

Fact: as I said in my previous post, if yourneyman Briggs and up and coming short notice VK can wobble him in the early going and you replace Foreman with any of those two Lemmie ain't getting off the hook. Guaranteed. Hell, even Grant had him momentarly stunned in the opening round and I am going from strict memory ,but I remember that in Rahman 2 he "stumbled" right after a Rahman jab.

What you diehard Lewis nuthuggers don't get is that in a big fight with a big banger with a chin, boxing skills/confidence in his PRIME. not washed up, shot or totally shopworn Lewis's CHIN is a big. I mean big questionmark, especially if he gets drawn into a shootout/dogfight.

Not hating and that does not mean that he is loosing every fight with a guy who can crack just there are severe doubts that he can take the right shot. Plus, one more time , if he goes down he stays down. History don't lie and he happens to be the ONLY Hwt champ that was disposed not once but twice by ONE shot.

[fists of fury]

I actually see this as going much along the lines of the Lewis-Mercer fight. A hard-fought, close decision win for Lewis where he bears visible signs of battle afterward.
Foreman lacked certain skills, but his jab and chin were excellent. That alone is a handful for most fighters. Lewis is a superior boxer by a mile, but I think he'd fight a cautious, measured fight considering Big George's power and reputation.
Lewis by close but unanimous decision.

[JohnThomas1]

First of all, I'm not "dwelling" on anything. Secondly, when a person says that a fighter won in either decisive or indecisive fashion, they typically mean that the outcome was either clear or it wasn't. Now I ask you, what wasn't decisive about a 10 count KO? was there any controversy involved? Was Lyle the victom of bad officiating or a premature stoppage? I think not. When a fighter knocks out another fighter, the verdict is about as decisive as it gets, regardless of what kind of hell he had to go through to reach that outcome...

We'll agree to disagree on this one. With the yo-yo KD's and Foreman being literally OUT i cannot personally label the victory "decisive". As for Jimmy Young, well.........

Nothing gets me laughing more than people picking out the odd singular performance that happens to suit their given agenda and driving it home again and again ala Zak etc. It cuts both ways and is a very shallow argument. There's lots more to look at.

[Waynegrade]

I don`t get it. There is actual debate going on whether Foreman had `true` KO power. True he was a bit of a clubber. But every expert from Ring magazine to most(if not all) boxing scribes put Big George at least in the top three. Saying he isn`t `that` kind of power just makes no sense at all. I misspoke a bit when I siad Lewis may not have the heart and will. But what he DOES NOT have, is the recovery skills to field a bomb, hit the deck. And come fighting back to win. I don`t feel as though Ali and Louis would be held in such lofty standing if this had happened to them. And saying that Tua and Ruddock etc. punch like Foreman is not giving George proper respect.Now get this, rope a dope or not,. Ali`s chin was a HUGE part of why he beat Foreman. Any conversation regarding Lewis` chin and Ali`s is just nonsense. Lewis could have outboxed Foreman, differently than Ali did. But, Lewis did NOT have the famous Ali chin to take a true Foreman bomb, climb off the deck and win. And as far as heart, I don`t see a 45 yr old Lewis taking the pounding that Foreman took from Moorer, and knocking his ass out late in the fight. Before everyone starts chiming in on Moorer`s suppossed china chin, remember. That he was undefeated at the time, and he DID climb of the deck to beat Holyfield. Foreman had the atitude, size and yes POWER to get it done in the early rds. Next thing you know, people will start saying Joe Louis` really wasn`t much of a puncher...

[mr. magoo]

JohnThomas1;3236257]We'll agree to disagree on this one. With the yo-yo KD's and Foreman being literally OUT i cannot personally label the victory "decisive".

Fair enough. Our definition of decisive is clearly different, and although I would still like to hear why a knockout is not decisive despite being floored along the way, I will willingly accept the fact that our views are different.

As for Jimmy Young, well.........

Nothing to explain there. It was a loss.


Nothing gets me laughing more than people picking out the odd singular performance that happens to suit their given agenda and driving it home again and again ala Zak etc. It cuts both ways and is a very shallow argument. There's lots more to look at.


Agree completely. Contradicition takes place daily here at ESB. Whenever Lennox is matched up against a prime Tyson, I find myself playing both sides of the field in an effort to establish balance, because the conflicting sides are using the very sort of tactics you speak of.

[fists of fury]

Fair enough. Our definition of decisive is clearly different, and although I would still like to hear why a knockout is not decisive despite being floored along the way, I will willingly accept the fact that our views are different.



If I may chip in, from my perspective it wasn't a decisive victory in that it was anybody's fight until Lyle finally fell, from what looked like exhaustion more than anything. Both were down and both took a fair bit of punishment. As they came out for the 5th, only a brave man would have placed a heavy bet in favour of one or the other.
I see what you're saying (in that Lyle was conclusively knocked out) but it's not like George dominated him and THEN knocked him out.
It was a pretty even fight up until the KO.

[mr. magoo]

If I may chip in, from my perspective it wasn't a decisive victory in that it was anybody's fight until Lyle finally fell, from what looked like exhaustion more than anything. Both were down and both took a fair bit of punishment. As they came out for the 5th, only a brave man would have placed a heavy bet in favour of one or the other.
I see what you're saying (in that Lyle was conclusively knocked out) but it's not like George dominated him and THEN knocked him out.
It was a pretty even fight up until the KO.


Up until the KO yes. But, is there any question as to who won the fight?

[DudeGuyMan]

By the way, the portrayal around here of Foreman as a guy who flails with his eyes closed and disintegrates if you don't fall over by round 5 is bullshit and has to stop. George Foreman doesn't have one-punch KO power? Are some of you guys retarded?

Foreman hits harder than anyone Lewis has ever stood in a boxing ring with. Yes including Tyson.

[Doppleganger]

lol, I am going out on a limb here but I bet that most of your Lewis "knowledge" comes from youtube...............ever seen him fight live in the nineties ?
Careful now, because that limb is about to break. I've seen almost every fight 'live' including being actually live at some of his earlier fights.

lMcCall, who I have personally seen spar with Tyson or Rahman are not heavy hitters. Can they crack , sure , but they are not even in the same zipcode as a Foreman, Tyson or a Lewis right hand. Fact.
OK who have you seen spar? You mention McCall with Tyson or Rahman. I think it's your suspect grammar confusing things, a bit like your suspect objectivity that basically destroys any merit your arguments might have. BTW you say they can crack but are not heavy hitters. Hmm isn't that kinda the same thing? Make up your mind old boy.

lBesides the Lewis KO's both fighters have hardly ANY creditable opponents on their record who they dusted by decisive KO. Especially by ONE shot. McCall has the mega green superglass jawed Oleg and the Octopuss similar chinned Akinwande . Rahman has Sanders who he only tko'ed after a life and death struggle while the Tko was mainly stamina related .
You're approaching this argument from the wrong viewpoint, rather because I suspect it isn't much of an argument. Instead of trying to discredit the fighters that stopped Lewis, why don't you attempt to establish why it was that Tyson, Tua and Bruno, despite landing fully flush, were unable to stop Lewis.

lForeman landed on a much faster, defensive more skilled and ring savy ALi who was able to take the occasional shots due to his iron will and granite chin. I give Lewis the benefit of the doubt about the iron will but his chin is not even in the same universe as Alis. I am not even going into the bodyshots Ali took.
I'm not so sure the '74 version of Ali was much faster than Lewis. I think you're getting yourself a little confused here. And whilst we're on the subject of bodyshots what evidence was there to suggest that Lewis was vulnerable to those?

lFact: as I said in my previous post, if yourneyman Briggs and up and coming short notice VK can wobble him in the early going and you replace Foreman with any of those two Lemmie ain't getting off the hook. Guaranteed. Hell, even Grant had him momentarly stunned in the opening round and I am going from strict memory ,but I remember that in Rahman 2 he "stumbled" right after a Rahman jab.
Wobble yes but the crucial fact, and one that you cannot dispute no matter what puerile nonsense you spout, is that neither Briggs nor Vitali nor anyone else (McCall and Rahman aside) could even floor Lewis nevermind stop him.

lWhat you diehard Lewis nuthuggers don't get is that in a big fight with a big banger with a chin, boxing skills/confidence in his PRIME. not washed up, shot or totally shopworn Lewis's CHIN is a big. I mean big questionmark, especially if he gets drawn into a shootout/dogfight.
I'm not a nuthugger because I recognize that Lewis has weaknesses that can be exploited. I just happen to believe that very few heavyweights in history could successfully exploit those weaknesses on a fully prepared and focused Lewis. IMO Foreman ain't one of them.

lNot hating and that does not mean that he is loosing every fight with a guy who can crack just there are severe doubts that he can take the right shot. Plus, one more time , if he goes down he stays down. History don't lie and he happens to be the ONLY Hwt champ that was disposed not once but twice by ONE shot.
Actually he got up against McCall so you're wrong, although personally I feel that he was 'gone' and the stoppage saved him from an even worse TKO. Even so, Lewis should have received the benefit of the doubt from the ref as reigning heavyweight champion of the world.

Finally Lewis has only ever been down twice and only Ali can (disputedly) say that he faced more 200+ power punchers during his career.

[mr. magoo]

By the way, the portrayal around here of Foreman as a guy who flails with his eyes closed and disintegrates if you don't fall over by round 5 is bullshit and has to stop. George Foreman doesn't have one-punch KO power? Are some of you guys retarded?

Foreman hits harder than anyone Lewis has ever stood in a boxing ring with. Yes including Tyson.


In all fairness, The vast majority of Foreman's KO's were the result of multiple shots to the head and body, basically resulting in submission. Of the 68 men that Foreman stopped, about 40 of them came via TKO. There really aren't that many knockouts that resulted from a single punch, and even fewer against men who were well known for taking it.

That said, I still rate him as one of the top 5 best punchers of all time by virtue of his overall ability to get a man out of there in one way or another, plus his very impressive win/ko ratio.

Could he KO or TKO or Lennox Lewis? Absolutely, but the key here is weather or not he'd be able to land the right shot at the right time, and do so before Lewis really inflicted any real damage upon him. Foreman battling with Lewis over 10 rounds is not a good thing, and will likely result in George losing the fight. His best bet, is to layoff the aggression for the first two or three rounds, let Lewis build his confidence up and get careless, then catch him with a big shot as he's coming in, then follow up with a barage as he's back peddling. If Foreman tries to go after Lennox with a vengeance too early, he is liable to either punch himself out, or leave himself vulnerable to counter attack. Unfortunately, I don't think that a 1970's Foreman had the ring smarts or the savy to pull this one off. He was simply too attached to his method of unloading on his victoms from the opening bell, which is what cost him in the Ali fight. I don't necessarily think that this would be a repeat of the Zaire fight, as I realize that there was more to George gassing out than just bad stamina. But rather, I see Lewis making him pay for his mistakes early, by making him miss, then punishing him with big shots that other men of the 70's never landed on him. This would be a tough and possibly career ending task for Foreman.

[JohnThomas1]

Foreman hits harder than anyone Lewis has ever stood in a boxing ring with. Yes including Tyson.

Got next weekends lotto numbers while ya going?

[JohnThomas1]

Fair enough. Our definition of decisive is clearly different, and although I would still like to hear why a knockout is not decisive despite being floored along the way, I will willingly accept the fact that our views are different.



Nothing to explain there. It was a loss.



Agree completely. Contradicition takes place daily here at ESB. Whenever Lennox is matched up against a prime Tyson, I find myself playing both sides of the field in an effort to establish balance, because the conflicting sides are using the very sort of tactics you speak of.

Cheers

:good

[knn]

I don`t get it. There is actual debate going on whether Foreman had `true` KO power. True he was a bit of a clubber. But every expert from Ring magazine to most(if not all) boxing scribes put Big George at least in the top three.

But this is the same Ring Magazine that puts Sam Langford at #2 of the hardest hitters toplist.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

They have obviously no clue because they consider KOing a bum a worthy achievement. Everyone who is good enough to be on a toplist should be able to KO bums. Even bums fighting bums can score some KOwins.

You have to delete bums off the record, otherwise Eric Esch would be the best heavyweight ever lived.

Once you delete all the bums (= the ones who lose 25% or more of their fights) off the record of Sam Langford only 71 fights stay (against the same 16 guys!!). In these 71 fights he scored 13 KOs. That's a freaking 18% KOratio against better opponents. And actually it's only 8 KOs since 5 weren't even 200+ lbs opponents.

What is this guy Langford doing at #2 of the Ring's toplist and why is Mike Tyson at #16 and Tua at #48?

The Ring has obviously some elitist attitude like "Opera is so much better than Pop" thus "Monsieur Langford is so much better than Tyson".

A statement like "Foreman is a top hitter" is wrong until you delete bums off the record.

After deleting bums + deleting below-200 opponents Foreman has a KOratio of 14 of 22 (63%). And indeed that's VERY good!

Foreman I has 7 KOs of 8 fights (that's too little fights to draw a conclusion) and Foreman II has 7 of 14 (50%).

As a comparison: Tyson has 17 KOs of 27 good opponents (62%), Lennox: 15 of 24 (62%), Archie Moore 5 of 7 (all other fights were against cruisers or bums), Liston 4 of 6, Ali 8+2 of 26 (since 2 were after round 12), Holmes 12+1 of 29 (yes, Holmes is a featherfist like Ali in fights with good opponents), Eric Esch 3 of 8 (there you have his real featherfisty achievement), Vitali 13 of 16 (81%), Wlad 22 of 28 (78%).

[Waynegrade]

But this is the same Ring Magazine that puts Sam Langford at #2 of the hardest hitters toplist.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

They have obviously no clue because they consider KOing a bum a worthy achievement. Everyone who is good enough to be on a toplist should be able to KO bums. Even bums fighting bums can score some KOwins.

You have to delete bums off the record, otherwise Eric Esch would be the best heavyweight ever lived.

Once you delete all the bums (= the ones who lose 25% or more of their fights) off the record of Sam Langford only 71 fights stay (against the same 16 guys!!). In these 71 fights he scored 13 KOs. That's a freaking 18% KOratio against better opponents. And actually it's only 8 KOs since 5 weren't even 200+ lbs opponents.

What is this guy Langford doing at #2 of the Ring's toplist and why is Mike Tyson at #16 and Tua at #48?

The Ring has obviously some elitist attitude like "Opera is so much better than Pop" thus "Monsieur Langford is so much better than Tyson".

A statement like "Foreman is a top hitter" is wrong until you delete bums off the record.

After deleting bums + deleting below-200 opponents Foreman has a KOratio of 14 of 22 (63%). And indeed that's VERY good!

Foreman I has 7 KOs of 8 fights (that's too little fights to draw a conclusion) and Foreman II has 7 of 14 (50%).

As a comparison: Tyson has 17 KOs of 27 good opponents (62%), Lennox: 15 of 24 (62%), Archie Moore 5 of 7 (all other fights were against cruisers or bums), Liston 4 of 6, Ali 8+2 of 26 (since 2 were after round 12), Holmes 12+1 of 29 (yes, Holmes is a featherfist like Ali in fights with good opponents), Eric Esch 3 of 8 (there you have his real featherfisty achievement), Vitali 13 of 16 (81%), Wlad 22 of 28 (78%).
Damn! Did you get technical :) You failed to mention Louis` bum of the month club...

[Waynegrade]

You gotta love boxing! Many different fighters, so many different opinions! That is what I love about the sport, on any given night. Anything is possible...

[knn]

Damn! Did you get technical :) You failed to mention Louis` bum of the month club...
Yeah, I didn't want to list ALL of the famous fighters.

Louis is 7+1 of 7+3 (+1 because it was a KO after round 12 and +3 because in 3 of the 10 fights Louis himself was below 200).

And since you mention bum of the month:
Marciano is 2 of 0+2.

These two wins were against 9yr-older Louis (Louis' 68th fight) and featherfist Cockell (in Cockell's 79th fight). Cockell started at 150+ lbs.

Marciano is one of the most overrated heavyweight ATGs. He should not be on any heavyweight toplist. Marciano is NOTHING but a cruiser (178 to 192 lbs) and just because he beat two somewhat *cough* good 200+ guys should not allow him an entry on the same toplist that features Foreman or Lennox.

He belongs on nothing but cruiserweight toplists. The same applies to Ezzard Charles (1 of 0+2) and Archie Moore (5 of 0+7). But that's another topic.

[fists of fury]

Yeah, I didn't want to list ALL of the famous fighters.

Louis is 7+1 of 7+3 (+1 because it was a KO after round 12 and +3 because in 3 of the 10 fights Louis himself was below 200).

And since you mention bum of the month:
Marciano is 2 of 0+2.

These two wins were against 9yr-older Louis (Louis' 68th fight) and featherfist Cockell (in Cockell's 79th fight). Cockell started at 150+ lbs.

Marciano is one of the most overrated heavyweight ATGs. He should not be on any heavyweight toplist. Marciano is NOTHING but a cruiser (178 to 192 lbs) and just because he beat two somewhat *cough* good 200+ guys should not allow him an entry on the same toplist that features Foreman or Lennox.

He belongs on nothing but cruiserweight toplists. The same applies to Ezzard Charles (1 of 0+2) and Archie Moore (5 of 0+7). But that's another topic.

Do us a favour and go back to general, where you have been mocked and ridiculed for three quarters of your posting life. Please. :dead

[fists of fury]

This is the same nut who labeled the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott and Mike Weaver 'bums' because they didn't have 91% winning records.

[MachineGunMitch]

Forman,easily

[knn]

This is the same nut who labeled the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott and Mike Weaver 'bums' because they didn't have 91% winning records.
First of all let me clarify that I only start to compare some of the old fighters when they are compared to modern heavies. Or when someone asks for an assessment of their record. This is a thread about Lennox vs Foreman thus I wanted to deliver some stats that might be of interest.

I don't go to the Classic Box forum and out of nowhere start to bash a classic fighter.

Second: Mike Weaver is B-level. He is at #90 on ChrisPontius consensus toplist. Case closed.

Third: Where does your 91% come from? Not from me. If a fighter loses every 4th fight I call him bum ("below usable margin") because a win over such fighter usually means nothing and I expect every ranked fighter to beat such a bum. This stems from the idea you have to delete sub-prime opponents off the record otherwise Eric Esch or LaMar Clark would be some of the best heavyweights ever lived. Once you delete bums you see Eric's and Clark's REAL record: Eric Esch (5-2) and LaMar Clark (0-2). They are both bum-beaters.

Fourth: The obvious discrepancy between my assessment and others is that I make an assessment by CAREER ACHIEVEMENTS, while others usually make an assessment by SINGLE FIGHT PERFORMANCES.

Jersey Joe Walcott is an OK boxer, but you cannot deny his record.
His record against good cruisers is 8(4KOs)-9(4KOs). His record against good heavies is 4(1 KO)-3(2 KOs). Thus is career record against good fighters is 12-12. Mike Weaver is 8-12 by the way. He won against an average good-opponent of of 26-5 (approx like Axel Schultz) and lost against an average good-opponent of 39-5 (approx. Donovan Ruddock).

If that makes him an A-level fighter for you then be it so.

[ChrisPontius]

Second: Mike Weaver is B-level. He is at #90 on ChrisPontius consensus toplist. Case closed.


And since does that make you a bum?

[knn]

And since does that make you a bum?
No, it doesn't make him an automatic bum.

But you know exactly that if Wlad would fight someone with a record of 41-18, then the negative comments wouldn't stop. My god, Rahman (45-7) is called a "bum" and a "proof of the sad state of the division", but if Larry Holmes beats Weaver then this is a sign of Holmes' greatness?

[mr. magoo]

No, it doesn't make him an automatic bum.

But you know exactly that if Wlad would fight someone with a record of 41-18, then the negative comments wouldn't stop. My god, Rahman (45-7) is called a "bum" and a "proof of the sad state of the division", but if Larry Holmes beats Weaver then this is a sign of Holmes' greatness?

A. Weaver was not considered as a legacy fight for Holmes, and nor was Rahman for Wlad.

B.Weaver was 28 years old and peaking when he fought Holmes, whereas Rahman was 36 and utterly past it.

C. Weaver had won 13 of his last 15 fights. Rahman's record looked a bit better admittadely, but was coming off of a No contest against James Toney, which in all honesty, probably should have been a loss. Weaver had also recently beaten a contender in Bernardo Mercado, but Rahman hadn't beaten anyone of note in years.

[ChrisPontius]

Well, Rahman should've gotten the win against Toney in 2006, which probably is a better win than Mercado for Weaver. Neither Weaver or Rahman (at that point) were big wins, but they were solid ones nethertheless.

[punchy]

But this is the same Ring Magazine that puts Sam Langford at #2 of the hardest hitters toplist.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

They have obviously no clue because they consider KOing a bum a worthy achievement. Everyone who is good enough to be on a toplist should be able to KO bums. Even bums fighting bums can score some KOwins.

You have to delete bums off the record, otherwise Eric Esch would be the best heavyweight ever lived.

Once you delete all the bums (= the ones who lose 25% or more of their fights) off the record of Sam Langford only 71 fights stay (against the same 16 guys!!). In these 71 fights he scored 13 KOs. That's a freaking 18% KOratio against better opponents. And actually it's only 8 KOs since 5 weren't even 200+ lbs opponents.

What is this guy Langford doing at #2 of the Ring's toplist and why is Mike Tyson at #16 and Tua at #48?

The Ring has obviously some elitist attitude like "Opera is so much better than Pop" thus "Monsieur Langford is so much better than Tyson".

A statement like "Foreman is a top hitter" is wrong until you delete bums off the record.

After deleting bums + deleting below-200 opponents Foreman has a KOratio of 14 of 22 (63%). And indeed that's VERY good!

Foreman I has 7 KOs of 8 fights (that's too little fights to draw a conclusion) and Foreman II has 7 of 14 (50%).

As a comparison: Tyson has 17 KOs of 27 good opponents (62%), Lennox: 15 of 24 (62%), Archie Moore 5 of 7 (all other fights were against cruisers or bums), Liston 4 of 6, Ali 8+2 of 26 (since 2 were after round 12), Holmes 12+1 of 29 (yes, Holmes is a featherfist like Ali in fights with good opponents), Eric Esch 3 of 8 (there you have his real featherfisty achievement), Vitali 13 of 16 (81%), Wlad 22 of 28 (78%).

Really all this proves is you need to use a bit of common sense judgement when assessing a fighter.

[knn]

Really all this proves is you need to use a bit of common sense judgement when assessing a fighter.
"Common sense" put Sam Langford at #2. Common sense is not enough.

[punchy]

First of all let me clarify that I only start to compare some of the old fighters when they are compared to modern heavies. Or when someone asks for an assessment of their record. This is a thread about Lennox vs Foreman thus I wanted to deliver some stats that might be of interest.

I don't go to the Classic Box forum and out of nowhere start to bash a classic fighter.

Second: Mike Weaver is B-level. He is at #90 on ChrisPontius consensus toplist. Case closed.

Third: Where does your 91% come from? Not from me. If a fighter loses every 4th fight I call him bum ("below usable margin") because a win over such fighter usually means nothing and I expect every ranked fighter to beat such a bum. This stems from the idea you have to delete sub-prime opponents off the record otherwise Eric Esch or LaMar Clark would be some of the best heavyweights ever lived. Once you delete bums you see Eric's and Clark's REAL record: Eric Esch (5-2) and LaMar Clark (0-2). They are both bum-beaters.

Fourth: The obvious discrepancy between my assessment and others is that I make an assessment by CAREER ACHIEVEMENTS, while others usually make an assessment by SINGLE FIGHT PERFORMANCES.

Jersey Joe Walcott is an OK boxer, but you cannot deny his record.
His record against good cruisers is 8(4KOs)-9(4KOs). His record against good heavies is 4(1 KO)-3(2 KOs). Thus is career record against good fighters is 12-12. Mike Weaver is 8-12 by the way. He won against an average good-opponent of of 26-5 (approx like Axel Schultz) and lost against an average good-opponent of 39-5 (approx. Donovan Ruddock).

If that makes him an A-level fighter for you then be it so.

Jersey Joe is an A level fighter because he was HW champion of the world.

[knn]

A. Weaver was not considered as a legacy fight for Holmes, and nor was Rahman for Wlad.
When you ask for Holmes' achievements then Weaver most probably WILL be mentioned, whereas in case of Rahman it's the "sad state of the division".

B.Weaver was 28 years old and peaking when he fought Holmes, whereas Rahman was 36 and utterly past it.
Rahman was not past it. Wlad makes everyone look like shot.

Weaver was not 28 but nearly 30. It was 1979 so maybe by our standards today he was like 35 (= like Rahman). He was 50 lbs lighter than Rahman and smaller. It took Holmes 12 rounds to KO him.

C. Weaver had won 13 of his last 15 fights. Rahman's record looked a bit better admittadely, but was coming off of a No contest against James Toney, which in all honesty, probably should have been a loss.
But this is unbelievable how you try to run revisionism. Weaver at the time of the first bout with Holmes was a 19-8 guy having scored just 2 KOs against somewhat good oppositions. You compare such a fight to Wlad-Rahman?

Weaver had also recently beaten a contender in Bernardo Mercado, but Rahman hadn't beaten anyone of note in years.
Between Weaver-Mercado were approx 250 days. Between Toney and Rahman were approx. 150 days. I am sorry that it was a NC but I am confident that Rahman would have won. It's not Rahman's fault that the fight ended because of the nasty cut.

[knn]

Jersey Joe is an A level fighter because he was HW champion of the world.
But so was Weaver. If being a titlist makes you an A-Level fighter then be it so.

For me that isn't enough. Even Lee Savold (93-40) was a titlist. Would a Wladimir Klitschko with 22 losses still be an A-Level fighter?

And moreover Jersey Joe's world title record is 1 KO and 6 losses.

[mr. magoo]

=knn;3244587]When you ask for Holmes' achievements then Weaver most probably WILL be mentioned, whereas in case of Rahman it's the "sad state of the division".


Perhaps because of what Weaver did in hindsite, but the fight was not a legacy builder, and nor was the Rahman fight.


Rahman was not past it. Wlad makes everyone look like shot.


Sure, just like he did against a 38 year old Corrie Sanders, and if you don't think that Rahman at age 36 and with no meaningful wins to speak of in years, wasn't shot then I dare you to tell me the definition.


Weaver was not 28 but nearly 30.

Now this is why I find debates on here a waste of my time, given that people seem to have difficulty with basic adding and subtracting. Weaver was born on June 14th, 1951. He fought Holmes on June 22th, 1979. For the numerically impaired, that adds up to age 28. Could you tell me how being approximately one week past your 28th birthday makes you closer to 30?



It was 1979 so maybe by our standards today he was like 35 (= like Rahman). He was 50 lbs lighter than Rahman and smaller. It took Holmes 12 rounds to KO him.


So a fighter in 2008 is more physically revitalized at age 35 than a 28 year old was in 1979? Hmmmm..
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]




But this is unbelievable how you try to run revisionism. Weaver at the time of the first bout with Holmes was a 19-8 guy having scored just 2 KOs against somewhat good oppositions. You compare such a fight to Wlad-Rahman?



And what the hell had Hasim done going into the Wlad fight? Weaver was young, in good shape, had not been stopped in a while, and was beating semi-decent opposition. What the fuck had Rahman done as of late? Gotten Ko'd by Oleg Masakaev, Tko'd by Toney, and defeated Zuri Lawrence?


It's not Rahman's fault that the fight ended because of the nasty cut.



What exactly do you think happens in boxing? Fighters lose bouts for various reason, and cuts are no exception. You can't award a fighter a victory that wasn't given to him on the basis of what you THINK MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.

[mr. magoo]

Between Weaver-Mercado were approx 250 days. Between Toney and Rahman were approx. 150 days. I am sorry that it was a NC but I am confident that Rahman would have won. It's not Rahman's fault that the fight ended because of the nasty cut.


The Toney fight was the ONLY match that Rahman had fought inside of a 13 month period, and it wasn't even a win. Weaver had scored FIVE STRAIT KNOCKOUTS within only 9 months prior to the Holmes fight. WTF are you even talking about?

[knn]

Weaver was born on June 14th, 1951. He fought Holmes on June 22th, 1979.
Oops, you are correct. Larry Holmes was nearly 30. I accidently swapped the two birthdates for the post. I should be in bed since hours already.

So a fighter in 2008 is more physically revitalized at age 35 than a 28 year old was in 1979? Hmmmm..
Nice pic of Weaver, but the comparison with Toney doesn't count because Toney started at 150+ thus is a FAT heavyweight. While Weaver was an athletic heavyweight. Moreover I was was comparing Weaver with Rahman. Toney is an untypical boxer in many ways and has even a worse heavyweight record than Weaver.

And what the hell had Hasim done going into the Wlad fight?
Enough to be the highest ranked available.

((And MAYBE thanks to the Rahman fight we will see Lennox return to the ring, since Lennox KOed him within 4 while Wlad needed longer, thus it may have been the final piece of info Lennox needed. I am very happy that this fight happened. Prepare for Vitali vs Lennox. And when Lennox wins prepare for Lennox vs Wlad))

Weaver was young, in good shape, had not been stopped in a while, and was beating semi-decent opposition. What the fuck had Rahman done as of late?
But this is the mindset that I complain about. It _can even be_ that Weaver was considered worthy because of his last 5 fights or so. But I check the whole career record not single fights. By single scenes Vitali did great against Lennox. But when you go by achievements then it's a LOSS. Thus Rahman is a much more worthy opponent than Weaver even although Weaver may have had a good performance against Holmes (although I actually think that he had a terrible defense eating basically everything that Larry dished out).

What exactly do you think happens in boxing? Fighters lose bouts for various reason, and cuts are no exception.
But look, a record of 30 or 50 or 70 fights _IS_ representative even if you think that some unfairness happened here and there. Actually _IF_ some unfairnesses happened then it's because the boxer was not CLEARLY DOMINATING. It's his own fault.

I cannot take some EXCUSES or REVISIONISM into account. I go by the official end result. If something was fishy about it the fighters should have sorted it out THEN.

There are only a few instances where you would want to calculate someone's ranking by introducing ALTERNATIVE results like "How high would you rank Ali if you delete Foreman from his record" or "How high would you rank Vitali had he won against Lennox". Such alternative calculations are only worth for top fighters but not for Weaver.

[knn]

The Toney fight was the ONLY match that Rahman had fought inside of a 13 month period, and it wasn't even a win. Weaver had scored FIVE STRAIT KNOCKOUTS within only 9 months prior to the Holmes fight.
Did you check the record of these guys he KOed?

Oliver Philipps, Abdul Khan and Mike Creel
have a COMBINED record of .... shall I tell it?.... 12-29-2
You should not ever mention them as a proof for anything. You complain about Rahman not earning a fight against Wlad but you know exactly that Rahman could KO these guys any time of the day.

Stan Ward is a featherfist (8 KOs in 30 fights) thus a fighter with a somewhat decent chin like Weaver had not to fear him too much.

Bernardo Mercado is a good win, but at that point Mercado came from a loss and had until then fought fighters with a median record of 6-8-0, in other words he was unexperienced whereas Weaver had a median opponent of 18-7-0 = had experience with opponents three times stronger than Mercado's opponents.

I have nothing against considering Weaver a worthy opponent against Holmes. But Rahman's record is much better.

[mr. magoo]

Knn,

If you wish to continue ignoring the fact that Rahman was washed up, inactive, hadn't beaten a decent fighter in years, and arguably lost to a fat past prime Toney, while Weaver was young, in greater shape, and coming off an active winning streak, then so beit. Its obvious that nothing I say is going to change your mind, as you continue to put an unprecedented spin on the facts, or better yet, miss-stating them.

[Sakura]

Perhaps because of what Weaver did in hindsite, but the fight was not a legacy builder, and nor was the Rahman fight.



Sure, just like he did against a 38 year old Corrie Sanders, and if you don't think that Rahman at age 36 and with no meaningful wins to speak of in years, wasn't shot then I dare you to tell me the definition.




Now this is why I find debates on here a waste of my time, given that people seem to have difficulty with basic adding and subtracting. Weaver was born on June 14th, 1951. He fought Holmes on June 22th, 1979. For the numerically impaired, that adds up to age 28. Could you tell me how being approximately one week past your 28th birthday makes you closer to 30?




So a fighter in 2008 is more physically revitalized at age 35 than a 28 year old was in 1979? Hmmmm..
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]





And what the hell had Hasim done going into the Wlad fight? Weaver was young, in good shape, had not been stopped in a while, and was beating semi-decent opposition. What the fuck had Rahman done as of late? Gotten Ko'd by Oleg Masakaev, Tko'd by Toney, and defeated Zuri Lawrence?



What exactly do you think happens in boxing? Fighters lose bouts for various reason, and cuts are no exception. You can't award a fighter a victory that wasn't given to him on the basis of what you THINK MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.


lennox was his prime 35 age. Some fighters can be even older..

[Sakura]

Knn,

If you wish to continue ignoring the fact that Rahman was washed up, inactive, hadn't beaten a decent fighter in years, and arguably lost to a fat past prime Toney, while Weaver was young, in greater shape, and coming off an active winning streak, then so beit. Its obvious that nothing I say is going to change your mind, as you continue to put an unprecedented spin on the facts, or better yet, miss-stating them.

Rahman was not his prime , but he didnt even try to fight..only defence.

[knn]

Rahman was not his prime , but he didnt even try to fight..only defence.
This is what is always claimed AFTER Wlad beats them into slavery.

I read this since YEARS already: Wlad's opponents didn't come to win. When will you accept it that it's Wlad's POWER that beats them into position and not their lack of fire?

I guess the statement "Wlad's ((opponent... insert name here)) came not to fight" is a kind of revisionism, or some kind of refusal to acknowledge.

[pckt]

Foreman. Lewis wouldn't know how to cope with his him, as no one had at the time. But he would still have a decent chance, and an older and wiser Lewis would win.

[BoxingFanNo1]

If Lewis can weather the storm and get his game going, he wins. If he gets clocked early in the right place at the right time, he's fucked....

I've just read through this entire stupid debate. Magoo, it's ridiculous, you said it best right here.

[Chris Warren]

Lennox Lewis couldn't handle Hasim Rahman, Lennox Lewis couldn't handle Oliver McCall. Lewis best wins came against a washed up Evander Holyfield and a washed up Mike Tyson. Bruno had him beat until he gassed out. Shannon Briggs almost knocked him but gassed out. Lewis beat a washed up Donovan Rudduck who in his prime was knocked out by David Jaco.

If you want to bring up the stupid Foreman got tired after 3 rounds crap that most of you little kids bring up then I will bring up this. Lennox Lewis got tired far more than Foreman did. Lennox Lewis wasn't adept to handling pressure. Foreman would keep the pressure on him. Lewis was a hard puncher but even a old Foreman punched harder according to Evander Holyfield. Lewis wasn't quick on his feet, He wasn't good a cutting off the ring or trapping his opponent like Foreman was.

What does Lewis bring to the table against Foreman? Nothing that Foreman couldn't handle. I can't imagine any circumstance where i can picture Lewis beating even a old Foreman. Lewis is a good fighter but not in the same league as the Foreman's of the world

Foreman by brutal knockout in a few rounds.

[janitor]

Lennox Lewis couldn't handle Hasim Rahman, Lennox Lewis couldn't handle Oliver McCall. Lewis best wins came against a washed up Evander Holyfield and a washed up Mike Tyson. Bruno had him beat until he gassed out. Shannon Briggs almost knocked him but gassed out. Lewis beat a washed up Donovan Rudduck who in his prime was knocked out by David Jaco.

If you want to bring up the stupid Foreman got tired after 3 rounds crap that most of you little kids bring up then I will bring up this. Lennox Lewis got tired far more than Foreman did. Lennox Lewis wasn't adept to handling pressure. Foreman would keep the pressure on him. Lewis was a hard puncher but even a old Foreman punched harder according to Evander Holyfield. Lewis wasn't quick on his feet, He wasn't good a cutting off the ring or trapping his opponent like Foreman was.

What does Lewis bring to the table against Foreman? Nothing that Foreman couldn't handle. I can't imagine any circumstance where i can picture Lewis beating even a old Foreman. Lewis is a good fighter but not in the same league as the Foreman's of the world

Foreman by brutal knockout in a few rounds.

It sounds as if you would pick Foreman to easily beat Ali if the fight had not taken place.

[Bokaj]

It sounds as if you would pick Foreman to easily beat Ali if the fight had not taken place.

I'd be prepared to bet a hefty sum he would.

"Ali who was almost KO'd by Cooper, a small CW, and Frazier, also a cruiser essentially, would stand a chance against the most formidable puncher of all time? A man who utterly destroyed Ali's two most difficult opponents? Not a chance in hell. Ali beat an old, slow-as-molasses Liston, who probably took a dive in both fights, that's all. He had trouble with a journeyman like Chuvalo, a cruiser like Mildenberger and almost lost to natural LHW Doug Jones. Foreman would demolish Ali within three rounds."