Worse Chin: RJJ or Lennox Lewis?

[paulfv]

Both were the victim of 2 1-punch KO's/TKO's, with each man being counted out once and having the referee stop the fight once.

RJJ's resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by Tarver
************ KTFO in 9 by Johnson

Lewis' resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by McCall
************ KO'd in 5 by Rahman


Each fighter has made concessions to allow for their non-granite mandibles: Lewis adopted the 'jab-and-grab' fighting strategy taught to him by Manny Steward, and RJJ went so far as to claim a moral victory that in his 3rd fight with Tarver (a fight which RJJ lost), he was not knocked out.

But now it's chin -vs- chin, and you the fan has to decide for him- or herself: Whose chin is worse, RJJ's or LL's? Please vote in the poll as well as provide your written answer here.

[Fab2333]

I dont think RJ has a glass chin. He was caught with two direct shots to the Jaw. They werent weak punches he got hit with, those where solid. ANy1 would have went down from those. I mean I wont say RJ has the best chin in the world or anything like that. BUt china chin, IM not going to say that. Lennox on the other hand I still wouldnt say his chin is made of glass, as he too got hit with solid shots. But he seems more prone to go down than RJ IMO

[brooklyn1550]

Neither has a glass chin in my opinion...tough question though.

[Fab2333]

Neither has a glass chin in my opinion...tough question though.:good

[Betty Swollocks]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

[paulfv]

I dont think RJ has a glass chin. He was caught with two direct shots to the Jaw. They werent weak punches he got hit with, those where solid. ANy1 would have went down from those. I mean I wont say RJ has the best chin in the world or anything like that. BUt china chin, IM not going to say that. Lennox on the other hand I still wouldnt say his chin is made of glass, as he too got hit with solid shots. But he seems more prone to go down than RJ IMO


It's funny, it seems as though Lewis was more likely to get 'stung' (Bruno, Briggs, Mercer, Klitschko, ...) than was RJJ (only knocked down once before Tarver and GJ, I believe, and I don't think he was even hurt).

But at the same time, if you did catch RJJ, it was all over.

So it's like Lewis was more suceptible to getting hurt, but he also had the ability to come back from getting hurt better, or something. RJJ didn't get hurt as much, but when he did get hurt, it was over.

Advantage: Lewis? (even though he got hurt more frequently)

[paulfv]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

OMG, are you serious???!!!

Ruiz and Williams? I don't know how I didn't know that.

Wow, that's sobering. It has to be Lewis, then.

Thanks for that info, Y.O.S.

[paulfv]

Lewis doesnt have a glass chin. He has the loss against Rahman, but it wasnt asz if he was layed out cold and knocked to queer street. RJJ got KFTOed by Tarver and Johnson and zero ability at recovering from a punch. RJJ easily has the glass chin

No doubt, LL is by far better at recovering from a punch than RJJ, who has shown exactly zero ability to do the same. You have to give LL credit for that.

[TheGreat]

No doubt, LL is by far better at recovering from a punch than RJJ, who has shown exactly zero ability to do the same. You have to give LL credit for that.

You really should put the hatorade down, Tarver was a very hard puncher with an 85% KO ratio when he landed a monster Haymaker on RJJ as for for the Johnson KO , RJJ was still shook up from the Tarver shot so he fought scared and Johnson kicked his ass for 7 or 8 rounds before the KO it was not a 1 punch KO it was a case of him breaking RJJ down for the KO as for Lewis he didn't have a glass jaw but he could be KO'd.

[jackiebrown]

he's a boxrec hero .. hes got staaars in his eyyyes ...
boxrec hero...it took one click! boxrec warrior .. with stars in his eyes
boxrec hero!!!

[Dekkers]

OMG, are you serious???!!!

Ruiz and Williams? I don't know how I didn't know that.

Wow, that's sobering. It has to be Lewis, then.

Thanks for that info, Y.O.S.

I hate to rain on your parade, but Williams judo threw Lewis down a few times, I've seen the footage, he didn't knock him down with punches. I think the Ruiz thing started as a Slopthrop joke as well, he used to run around saying Ruiz KO1, whenever people would say Lewis TKO6 :lol:

[paulfv]

You really should put the hatorade down, Tarver was a very hard puncher with an 85% KO ratio when he landed a monster Haymaker on RJJ as for for the Johnson KO , RJJ was still shook up from the Tarver shot so he fought scared and Johnson kicked his ass for 7 or 8 rounds before the KO it was not a 1 punch KO it was a case of him breaking RJJ down for the KO as for Lewis he didn't have a glass jaw but he could be KO'd.

What hatorade? RJJ never really took a shot until he got in with Tarver, so I can't blame him for not being good at recovering from a shot like Lewis could.

As chinny as Lennox was, he did get wobbled on many an occasion, and still was only stopped twice. RJJ only got hurt twice that I remember, and both times, as soon as he got hurt the fight was over.

Unless you think Montell Griffin hurt him in their first fight, but I don't remember that. When Telesco (was it Telesco or Del Valle?) put RJJ on his butt, that wasn't jack, as far as I remember.

So Lewis has to have the edge in 'recovering from being hurt,' while RJJ has the edge in 'not getting hurt,' IMO.

[Dekkers]

Here's my donation to the thread, carry on Pauly :D

oT7-KU3sjkM

-OQrgv5MemE

uHzFd7MOuYU

[paulfv]

Couple things from the first video:

1. Nobody - NOBODY - I can remember at heavyweight was as good at holding and hitting as Lewis. He isn't quite at Hopkins' level, but he's up there. He got away with that as much as anyone (particularly of championship material) I can recall at the higher weights. Part of why he was probably so good at it was because of his size. For example, it would have been a lot harder for Mike Tyson to hold and hit when he has to reach over his head to do so.

2. Tony "TNT" Tucker was a hard man, and a good fighter. Went the distance with both Tyson (prime) and Lewis. That guy was a rock, and probably would be a lot more well-known if not for Tyson.

Ok, thanks Dekkers! I actually have to get back to work now. Real work. :(

[Mind Reader]

neither have glass chins

[BobDigi5060]

RJJ is worse.

[Jens S]

Neither had glass chins.

Jens

[Drexl]

OMG, are you serious???!!!

Ruiz and Williams? I don't know how I didn't know that.


You didn't know it because it isn't true.


Links or pics or STFU. :roll:

[McGrain]

Neither has a glass chin.

Of the two, I would suggest that Jones' had the better chin though.

[Amsterdam]

Neither has a glass chin.

Of the two, I would suggest that Jones' had the better chin though.

Spot on, you know I'd agree to that one.:yep

And Lewis did have a glass chin, it was just a little harder than most glass and was blown of the highest quality... but shattered against two mediocre hitters.

Jones' chin must have degraded over time, which the punch resistance does slip with age, because he did take some very good shots when he was at his peak, then again, that Tarver shot was just wicked, even though a prime RJJ gets put down but gets back up to finish Tarver off later on if that were the case.

[McGrain]

And Lewis did have a glass chin, it was just a little harder than most glass and was blown of the highest quality... but shattered against two mediocre hitters.

On an instinctive level i just know it's not possible to be a dominant heavyweight champ AND have a glass chin. It's obvious.

On a more natural level i've seen him get hit hard by big heavyweights and not go down.

Jones' chin must have degraded over time, which the punch resistance does slip with age, because he did take some very good shots when he was at his peak, then again, that Tarver shot was just wicked, even though a prime RJJ gets put down but gets back up to finish Tarver off later on if that were the case.

Two things - i never saw Jones get hit where he wasn't rolling with the punch until he got spark. He was that quick.

Second, weight drain does affect punch resistance as well as stamina. Why that would be I really don't understand but it is easier to bowl over a drained fighter (especially one who's been ditching muscle) than one who isn't, with one shot.

[McGrain]

Fighting against windmills, aren´t ya? :D


On and on it goes.

[Drofrah]

Niether has a really bad chin, if i had to say one who was worse, id say RJJ is more likely to go down, as Lewis did take some good shots well in his time

[HopkinsFan]

I agree neither of the two have an awfully bad chin but if i was forced to choose, Roy Jones has the worse chin.

[barneyrub]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.From judo throws. I dont think that counts concerning chin lol.

[ozziebattler]

Neither had glass chins..

Ridiculous topic...

So tyson has glass chin because all his losses were via stoppage???

What about gatti?got stocked several times..

Oh i forgot ray mercer,he got stopped a few times..

Stupid topic...

[ChrisPontius]

Neither had glass chins. Lewis took flush punches from Morrison, Bruno, Klitschko, Tua, Briggs, Grant, Holyfield, Tyson (past it but still had power) and others.

Jones although he was very hard to hit, did take same hard shots from Toney and Hopkins and nothing happened.

Note that Jones didn't get KO'd untill he was 35. The Lewis-McCall fight was stopped early (though i think McCall would've beaten him anyway) and the Rahman fight was also when Lewis was 35.
To remind you, by the age of 35, Dempsey was retired, Tyson was shit, Foreman was retired for the first time, Holmes lost to a light heavy, Ali was losing to 6-0 Leon Spinks, Marciano was retired, Jeffries was retired, Liston was past his best and Frazier was retired.

[barneyrub]

Watch Lewis take flush shots from Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Holyfield, Briggs, Tyson, Mason, Tucker, Mercer, Grant, Rahman, Morrison, Mavrovic and stay standing, if this is glass its the bullet proof, rocket proof variety.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Gunnar]

Jones chin is worse.

[Scar]

Neither have a glass chin. They were both caught right on the button and KO'd, this didn't only happen to them so those "glass chin" comments are stupid.

[paulfv]

I think Jones' chin is "glassier" than Lewis.

So, if Lewis' chin is like, 95% glass, I'd say Jones' is like 98% or so.

Whoever it was who said that Jones rolled better with punches is dead-on. As Lewis adopted a "jab-and-grab" technique to hide his frail chin, Jones' reflexes protected his. Once those reflexes faded just slightly, Jones' real chin was shown for what it was.

And though Lewis has been rocked far more times than has Jones, he also weathered it better than did Jones.

So notwithstanding the Ruiz and Williams sparring session stories, I have to say Lewis has the better chin. Which is kind of like saying that one car dealership is more trustworthy than another. But in a comparison between two people, someone has to win and someone has to lose. Yes, LL was on newborn-deer legs more than was Jones, but that's because of Jones' superior reflexes.

Manny Steward, IMO, saved Lewis' career, much as he is saving Wlad Klitschko's. Both men have suspect chins (though Wlad's is FAR superior to Lewis'), and Manny taught them how to use their size and reach to hide this fact. Lewis' fight against Tua is the perfect example of this.

Though LL's chin is made of tinfoil, that tinfoil is still sturdier than the tinfoil which resides in Jones' jaw, IMO.

[marting]

I think Jones' chin is "glassier" than Lewis.

So, if Lewis' chin is like, 95% glass, I'd say Jones' is like 98% or so.

Whoever it was who said that Jones rolled better with punches is dead-on. As Lewis adopted a "jab-and-grab" technique to hide his frail chin, Jones' reflexes protected his. Once those reflexes faded just slightly, Jones' real chin was shown for what it was.

And though Lewis has been rocked far more times than has Jones, he also weathered it better than did Jones.

So notwithstanding the Ruiz and Williams sparring session stories, I have to say Lewis has the better chin. Which is kind of like saying that one car dealership is more trustworthy than another. But in a comparison between two people, someone has to win and someone has to lose. Yes, LL was on newborn-deer legs more than was Jones, but that's because of Jones' superior reflexes.

Manny Steward, IMO, saved Lewis' career, much as he is saving Wlad Klitschko's. Both men have suspect chins (though Wlad's is FAR superior to Lewis'), and Manny taught them how to use their size and reach to hide this fact. Lewis' fight against Tua is the perfect example of this.

Though LL's chin is made of tinfoil, that tinfoil is still sturdier than the tinfoil which resides in Jones' jaw, IMO.

There was a clip of the sparring session between Williams and Lewis on the site a while back and from what I remember of it Williams basically tackled Lewis in frustration and was fired as a sparring partner for roughhousing.

[paulfv]

There was a clip of the sparring session between Williams and Lewis on the site a while back and from what I remember of it Williams basically tackled Lewis in frustration and was fired as a sparring partner for roughhousing.

Thanks, that's what somebody else said earlier, also. I think the same is true with Ruiz (what a shock, huh?)

[barneyrub]

Even in the Rahman loss Lewis was making his way off his knees when it was stopped, he was on his feet afterward unlike jones who was lying on the canvas for about 10 minutes after the Johnson loss.

Iron chin Lewis video

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Drexl]

Lennox Lewis has the weakest chin .....who else have Oliver McCall or Rahman ever levelled like Lewis.... Lennox went doen like someone had levelled a shotgun on him

McCall stopped current World Title Holder Maskaev in 1 round.

Rahman stopped prime Corrie Sanders quicker than it took for Vitali to stop a washed-up version of Sanders.

[ChrisPontius]

I think Jones' chin is "glassier" than Lewis.

So, if Lewis' chin is like, 95% glass, I'd say Jones' is like 98% or so.

Whoever it was who said that Jones rolled better with punches is dead-on. As Lewis adopted a "jab-and-grab" technique to hide his frail chin, Jones' reflexes protected his. Once those reflexes faded just slightly, Jones' real chin was shown for what it was.

And though Lewis has been rocked far more times than has Jones, he also weathered it better than did Jones.

So notwithstanding the Ruiz and Williams sparring session stories, I have to say Lewis has the better chin. Which is kind of like saying that one car dealership is more trustworthy than another. But in a comparison between two people, someone has to win and someone has to lose. Yes, LL was on newborn-deer legs more than was Jones, but that's because of Jones' superior reflexes.

Manny Steward, IMO, saved Lewis' career, much as he is saving Wlad Klitschko's. Both men have suspect chins (though Wlad's is FAR superior to Lewis'), and Manny taught them how to use their size and reach to hide this fact. Lewis' fight against Tua is the perfect example of this.

Though LL's chin is made of tinfoil, that tinfoil is still sturdier than the tinfoil which resides in Jones' jaw, IMO.

Jab and grab..... bullshit.

Tell me which fights Lewis jabbed and grabbed?

How many of his fights have you seen at all, outside of McCall I and Rahman I ?

[The Kurgan]

Ali was losing to 6-0 Leon Spinks

6-0-1. He'd very nearly lost to the great Scott LeDoux. It should be also noted that Spinks was high on painkillers (because of an opening in his ribcage) until the last few rounds, which he fought in searing pain.

Compared to losing to someone like that, being knocked out is almost not as bad.

[Jack]

All this debate about Lewis' chin pisses me off. I'm just bored with how stupid people actualy are. He was layed out twice by punches he ddin't see, against boxers he underestimated. To counter that, he took some seriously hard shots against one-punch knockout artists like Tua, Bruno, Klitschko, Tyson and then obviously hard punches from people like Holyfield.

There is far more strength behind saying Lewis had a fantastic chin, than a weak one.

[The Kurgan]

McCall stopped current World Title Holder Maskaev in 1 round.

Rahman stopped prime Corrie Sanders quicker than it took for Vitali to stop a washed-up version of Sanders.

True, and in Rahman-Sanders it was a punch stoppage rather than an exhaustion stoppage. Rahman unloaded a combination and Sanders just couldn't recover. Vitali just threw one-two's until Sanders started to hyperventilate like an asthmatic fat kid getting towel-whipped in the school changing rooms.

Rahman also knocked Sanders down, something which Vitali couldn't do.

[The Kurgan]

All this debate about Lewis' chin pisses me off. I'm just bored with how stupid people actualy are. He was layed out twice by punches he ddin't see, against boxers he underestimated. To counter that, he took some seriously hard shots against one-punch knockout artists like Tua, Bruno, Klitschko, Tyson and then obviously hard punches from people like Holyfield.

There is far more strength behind saying Lewis had a fantastic chin, than a weak one.

I think he had an unreliable chin, which was a reflection of his mindset. Lewis doesn't have a focused mentality, which means that shots that he can take when he's concentrating and paying proper attention (as the famous "Lewis Had An Iron Chin" highlight reel shows) can spark him when he's not paying attention (in the McCall and Rahman fights).

Compare that to someone like Toney, who was always paying ample attention and seeing the punches before they landed. Toney has only ever been down due to balance; part of it's because he's got a naturally strong chin and good defense, but another part of it is that he's got this Buddhist monk-like focus in the ring, which is also why he's such a good counter-puncher. Larry Holmes is similar- I don't think Holmes had better punch resistance per se that Lewis, just a better mindset in the ring.

It's worthwhile remembering that everyone who went into a fight with Lewis with a strategy of "I've got to just land that one big punch" almost always lost, and usually got sparked themselves (Briggs, Tyson, Bruno) or humiliated (Holyfield, Tua).

[jlrivera81]

I chose Lewis to have a the worse chin b/c he was a full fledged heavy weight. I honestly believe that Roy Jones KO's were mostly due to losing 25 lbs of solid muscle to drop back down to fight tarver and glen johnson. Lewis had no excuse. While the KO's of both were equally brutal, Lewis is worse b/c he was in his proper weight class at the time.

[koko of phil]

Both have glassy chins. Only that RJJ got exposed so much by not being clever to quit boxing right away like Lennox did, realizing his chin is being checked.

[A-50]

Both were the victim of 2 1-punch KO's/TKO's, with each man being counted out once and having the referee stop the fight once.

RJJ's resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by Tarver
************ KTFO in 9 by Johnson

Lewis' resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by McCall
************ KO'd in 5 by Rahman


Each fighter has made concessions to allow for their non-granite mandibles: Lewis adopted the 'jab-and-grab' fighting strategy taught to him by Manny Steward, and RJJ went so far as to claim a moral victory that in his 3rd fight with Tarver (a fight which RJJ lost), he was not knocked out.


But now it's chin -vs- chin, and you the fan has to decide for him- or herself: Whose chin is worse, RJJ's or LL's? Please vote in the poll as well as provide your written answer here.



Glass Jaw Roy Jones and it ain't even close. When Glen Johnson KO's you for 8 minutes it means your Chin is made of 100% Grade A China!! :lol: :lol: Plus Lewis actually fought some heavy punchers, Glass Jaw Roy did nothing but avoid them his whole career.

[barneyrub]

I chose Lewis to have a the worse chin b/c he was a full fledged heavy weight. I honestly believe that Roy Jones KO's were mostly due to losing 25 lbs of solid muscle to drop back down to fight tarver and glen johnson. Lewis had no excuse. While the KO's of both were equally brutal, Lewis is worse b/c he was in his proper weight class at the time.

Its not as if he didnt take many many hard shots in his 15 year pro career, its not as if all you had to do was land a shot and he would go down.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Vanboxingfan]

Both were the victim of 2 1-punch KO's/TKO's, with each man being counted out once and having the referee stop the fight once.

RJJ's resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by Tarver
************ KTFO in 9 by Johnson

Lewis' resume -
************ TKO'd in 2 by McCall
************ KO'd in 5 by Rahman


Each fighter has made concessions to allow for their non-granite mandibles: Lewis adopted the 'jab-and-grab' fighting strategy taught to him by Manny Steward, and RJJ went so far as to claim a moral victory that in his 3rd fight with Tarver (a fight which RJJ lost), he was not knocked out.

But now it's chin -vs- chin, and you the fan has to decide for him- or herself: Whose chin is worse, RJJ's or LL's? Please vote in the poll as well as provide your written answer here.

go away.

[Vanboxingfan]

Neither had glass chins. Lewis took flush punches from Morrison, Bruno, Klitschko, Tua, Briggs, Grant, Holyfield, Tyson (past it but still had power) and others.

Jones although he was very hard to hit, did take same hard shots from Toney and Hopkins and nothing happened.

Note that Jones didn't get KO'd untill he was 35. The Lewis-McCall fight was stopped early (though i think McCall would've beaten him anyway) and the Rahman fight was also when Lewis was 35.
To remind you, by the age of 35, Dempsey was retired, Tyson was shit, Foreman was retired for the first time, Holmes lost to a light heavy, Ali was losing to 6-0 Leon Spinks, Marciano was retired, Jeffries was retired, Liston was past his best and Frazier was retired.

One of the best post on this thread, adds some much needed perspective to the whole picture.

[paulfv]

Glass Jaw Roy Jones and it ain't even close. When Glen Johnson KO's you for 8 minutes it means your Chin is made of 100% Grade A China!! :lol: :lol: Plus Lewis actually fought some heavy punchers, Glass Jaw Roy did nothing but avoid them his whole career.

Well said. The 8 minutes after GJ sparked RJJ were pretty damn eerie.

RJJ did avoid punchers, IMO.

Corrie Sanders has said that Lewis told Sanders himself that Lewis ducked him. I could see that, as Sanders had the power and speed to take out the chinny Lewis.

I know Lewis also avoided Byrd, but Chris was hardly a power puncher.

Lewis used the "jab-and-grab" very effictively against Tua, as well as in the early rounds with Tyson. I believe he also used this strategy effectively against Holyfield, but I'd have to go over my tapes to be sure.

After Manny Steward helped McCall deck Lewis in their first fight, Manny then went on to help Lewis learn the chin-hiding, clinching style which allowed Lewis to regain and retain his championship.

Props to Manny for teaching Lewis how to clinch, and props to Lewis for understanding and working with the inherent weakness of his soft jaw.

[DamonD]

Lewis used the "jab-and-grab" very effictively against Tua
This one I often like to dispell as a bit of an urban myth.
About a year and a half back I took the time to actually watch the whole fight and count all of the clinches and posted the findings here.

End result? 26 clinches, spread over the twelve rounds.
The highest was round two, with 5.

And most of them were positional ones, where Lewis would reach out, grab Tua, turn around (switching places on the ropes), and release, all in the space of about a second or two without the referee having to break it up.

Lewis's first 'proper' clinch, the hold on and wait to be seperated type, didn't occur until the 10th round.

If anyone doesn't believe me, just go check the tape like I did :good
Lewis beat Tua with movement, not clinching, and that eternal kryptonite reset button of Tua's entire career - a consistant jab.

[aliwasthegreatest]

owned

[paulfv]

Here's an article from before the Tua-Lewis fight:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The important part of the article:


Oliver McCall shocked us all in 1994 when he knocked out Lewis. That loss helped Lewis mature into the boxer he is today by teaching him to always be wary of power.

Lewis' trainer, Emanuel Steward, has made sure to spend considerable time teaching Lewis how to clinch Tua.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but this is common knowledge to any serious fan or reporter of the sport -- Lennox Lewis was a "jab-and-grabber" of the highest order, helping set the stage for the John Ruiz' and the Wlad Klitschko's of the world.

Everything Manny is teaching Wlad about clinching he had taught Lewis. The only differences are that, in Wlad, Manny has a fighter with a better chin (no one punch KO/TKO losses, never counted out) and a better offensive arsenal (Lewis wishes he could throw a left hook like Wlad) than he had in Lewis. So whatever adjustments he has to make with Wlad, he had to make equal or greater adjustments with the chinnier, more-offensively-limited Lewis.

As the trainer of the McCall who TKO'd Lewis in 2 rounds - with 1 punch - nobody was more aware of Lewis' jawbone fragility than Steward. That he was able to so successfully hide that glaring weakness and help his man reign for an extended period of time tells you just how great of a trainer ES really is.

[Fab2333]

Spot on, you know I'd agree to that one.:yep

And Lewis did have a glass chin, it was just a little harder than most glass and was blown of the highest quality... but shattered against two mediocre hitters.

Jones' chin must have degraded over time, which the punch resistance does slip with age, because he did take some very good shots when he was at his peak, then again, that Tarver shot was just wicked, even though a prime RJJ gets put down but gets back up to finish Tarver off later on if that were the case.:deal

[Drexl]

Here's an article from before the Tua-Lewis fight:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The important part of the article:


Oliver McCall shocked us all in 1994 when he knocked out Lewis. That loss helped Lewis mature into the boxer he is today by teaching him to always be wary of power.

Lewis' trainer, Emanuel Steward, has made sure to spend considerable time teaching Lewis how to clinch Tua.



So you believe an article written before the fight by Tim Graham (who?) over WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE FIGHT?

Jackass. :patsch

[Vanboxingfan]

So you believe an article written before the fight by Tim Graham (who?) over WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE FIGHT?

Jackass. :patsch

My thoughts exactly!!

[Stewbear]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

Yes Jeremy Williams had him on the floor many times in training, as he used his Judo skills to THROW him down.
Now im sure you already know this so you must be a liar and therefore have no credit on ESB.

[Lacyace]

I don't like the options. Neither boxer had a weak chin. Who had the worse chin? Lewis.

[The Kurgan]

Here's an article from before the Tua-Lewis fight:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The important part of the article:


Oliver McCall shocked us all in 1994 when he knocked out Lewis. That loss helped Lewis mature into the boxer he is today by teaching him to always be wary of power.

Lewis' trainer, Emanuel Steward, has made sure to spend considerable time teaching Lewis how to clinch Tua.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but this is common knowledge to any serious fan or reporter of the sport -- Lennox Lewis was a "jab-and-grabber" of the highest order, helping set the stage for the John Ruiz' and the Wlad Klitschko's of the world.


Ridiculous. You're relying on axioms rather than empirical evidence. WATCH Lewis-Tua and COUNT the clinches, rather than rely on preconceptions.

[barneyrub]

Here's an article from before the Tua-Lewis fight:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The important part of the article:


Oliver McCall shocked us all in 1994 when he knocked out Lewis. That loss helped Lewis mature into the boxer he is today by teaching him to always be wary of power.

Lewis' trainer, Emanuel Steward, has made sure to spend considerable time teaching Lewis how to clinch Tua.


I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but this is common knowledge to any serious fan or reporter of the sport -- Lennox Lewis was a "jab-and-grabber" of the highest order, helping set the stage for the John Ruiz' and the Wlad Klitschko's of the world.

Everything Manny is teaching Wlad about clinching he had taught Lewis. The only differences are that, in Wlad, Manny has a fighter with a better chin (no one punch KO/TKO losses, never counted out) and a better offensive arsenal (Lewis wishes he could throw a left hook like Wlad) than he had in Lewis. So whatever adjustments he has to make with Wlad, he had to make equal or greater adjustments with the chinnier, more-offensively-limited Lewis.

As the trainer of the McCall who TKO'd Lewis in 2 rounds - with 1 punch - nobody was more aware of Lewis' jawbone fragility than Steward. That he was able to so successfully hide that glaring weakness and help his man reign for an extended period of time tells you just how great of a trainer ES really is.He didnt clinch Tua.
Id love you to point out a fight where he lunged in and grabbed, leaned and spoiled like Wlad did to Peter. If you look at the Tyson fight it was actualluy Tyson that was holding!

[vonBanditos]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

As already mentioned, I don't think either of those are real. I do, however, believe that Lewis was knocked down by Brewster.

[ChrisPontius]

Some people see only what they want to see. Instead of watching the fight and counting the neglible amount of clinches, he relies on some article written before the fight. Ignorance at its best. Lewis moved for 12 rounds, boxed Tua's ears off to the point that Tua had little interest of coming forward and it had nothing to do with clinches.

[Curtis Lowe]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

Both of these very old rumors have been dismissed. He never sparred with Ruiz and Williams became so frustrated in sparring that he tried a hip toss on Lewis and as usual...failed.

[Mind Reader]

Neither of them had glass chins. When Roy was koed by Tarver it was an incredible shot.. Against Johnson it was more of a accumulation and his head hitting the floor. Whose chin is better?? Thats a good question. No one stays on top as long as these two that have glass chins.. come on guys!

[Vanboxingfan]

Neither of them had glass chins. When Roy was koed by Tarver it was an incredible shot.. Against Johnson it was more of a accumulation and his head hitting the floor. Whose chin is better?? Thats a good question. No one stays on top as long as these two that have glass chins.. come on guys!

You wouldn't think you'd have to state the obvious on a boxing forum. But apparently some people can't grasp the concept that you need a variety of attributes and skills to be a champion. And if your chin isn't at least average, it's not going to happen, cause somewhere sometime you're going to get tagged long before making to the top.

[paulfv]

Lennox Lewis is the only HW I can recall who is frequently mentioned as a potential ATG who has two crushing 1-punch KO/TKO defeats. Ali, Louis, Johnson, Marciano, Holmes, Tyson, Dempsey, Foreman, Holyfield, ..., no one comes close.

And imagine how much weaker LL's chin would be if he weren't such a giant, but were more the size of a Holyfield, or an Ali.

Manny Steward wisely altered Lewis' fighting style so as to protect LL's brittle mandible.

Like LL, RJJ also is one of the only fighters I can recall who is considered an ATG (or in Lewis' case, debated as such) who has two 1-punch KO/TKO defeats.

There is no way around the concept that nearly all of the ATG's never suffered such multiple, ignominious conquerings at the hands of their opponents.

Which led to the thread topic. "Ok," I thought, "you have two guys who are considered elite who each were KO'd/TKO'd twice with a single blow; so now that you've narrowed the list down to two, who has the weaker chin between them? Each man's chin has proven soft, but which chin wins the 'toilet paper award' for its unique softness and inability to deal with one solid punch? That is the question."

It appears as though RJJ's chin is the softer of the two. Though he is clearly, IMO, the superior fighter - lb-for-lb - between himself and LL, in the chins department it looks as though RJJ has come up with the short end of the stick.

So although LL will almost undoubtedly remain the "most-easy-man-to-1-punch-KO/TKO" in terms of the top 25 all-time heavyweights, it appears that Jones has edged Lennox out for this award.

[Axe]

IMO Roy's chin was weak, LL's was just average...too bad that average at heavyweight is enough to give you a big L by KO on your record.

[paulfv]

Good point, Axe. However soft a person may rate's LL's chin, RJJ's almost certainly has to be rated weaker, IMO.


Here's some visual evidence of LL displaying his non-granite chin:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs. Oliver McCall (fight
#1 of 2 vs McCall)

Lewis after a single, chopping
right hand from Oliver McCall
separated Lennox both from
his faculties and the WBC
championship. Lewis' future
trainer, Manny Steward,
worked McCall's corner and
had trained McCall for the
matchup. This was the fight
which convinced Lewis (and
Steward) that he must
protect his weak chin in
future bouts if he wanted to
remain a viable HW
contender and/or champion.
That is, this is the fight
which would prove the
origin of the "jab-and-grab"
Lennox Lewis most fight
fans were accustomed to
seeing. TKO.

* Round #2 (1994)
----------------------------------------------------

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs Rahman (fight #1 of 2 vs Rahman)

Lewis being counted out against Hasim
Rahman after one well-placed Rahman
right hand sent LL crashing to the canvas
in a heap. Rahman's big KO punch
earned him the WBC and IBF belts. KO.

* Round #5 (2001)
------------------------------------------------------

[errsta]

I'd say Lennox.

Roy got one hitter quittered once...The Johnson one was a ton of accumulation.

Lennox got one hitter quittered twice.

Also, I think the claims that either has a "glass jaw" is extremely exaggerated.

[Drexl]

Good point, Axe. However soft a person may rate's LL's chin, RJJ's almost certainly has to be rated weaker, IMO.


Here's some visual evidence of LL displaying his non-granite chin:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Lewis after a single, chopping
right hand from Oliver McCall
separated Lennox from the
WBC championship
* Round #2 (1994)
----------------------------------------------------

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Lewis being counted out against Hasim
Rahman after Rahman's stirring, well-placed
right hand sent LL crashing to the canvas in a
heap. Rahman's big KO punch earned him
the WBC and IBF belts.
* Round #5 (2001)
------------------------------------------------------



The use of grainy stills = you automatically lose the argument. :hi:

[DamonD]

Wow, Lewis on the deck twice...WORST CHIN OF ALLLL TIME!

Got any grainy stills of Roy looking glassy-eyed on the floor?

[paulfv]

I'd say Lennox.

Roy got one hitter quittered once...

Lennox got one hitter quittered twice...

Lennox definitely was easier to 'get to' than was RJJ. Lewis was 'stung'/hurt by many more fighters than was RJJ. The only two guys who hurt RJJ were Tarver and GJ. You could throw in the time RJJ was knocked down by Lou Del Valle. That's 3 fighters, total, I can remember, although I might be forgetting a fighter or two who stung/hurt RJJ. Roy Jones has fought in 55 professional contests. Percentage-wise, RJJ was hurt against 6% of the fighters he faced.

Lewis, on the other hand, was stung/hurt by: Billups, Tucker, Bruno, McCall, Mercer, Akinwande (should have been ruled a KD), Briggs, Holyfield, Tua, Rahman, and Klitschko, and those are just the times I know about. That's 11 different fighters that stung/hurt/floored Lewis. Lewis fought in 44 professional contests during his career. Percentage-wise, Lewis was hurt against 27% of the fighters he faced.

That is a significant difference, 27% vs 6%. Now, some of that difference is because RJJ was fighting his 'bum-of-the-month'-level opposition. And I think much of it was because RJJ's reflexes were far superior to LL's, allowing him to react to/roll-with punches far better than LL did.

I'm not sure if those two factors can explain the large disparity in the # of times one fighter was hurt as compared with the other, however, and that could lead a person to conclude LL's chin was more susceptible than was RJJ's.


Lewis always seemed to be open for a right hand from his opponents, something which improved under Manny Steward's tutelage but which still remained an issue for Lennox even after Steward joined his team (see: Rahman, Klitschko, etc.).

Almost all of the instances of Lewis being hurt (except Tua and Holyfield ) came courtesy of a right hand.

Lewis' massive frame made him the perfect fit for the "jab-and-grab" approach Steward imparted to him. Because of his height, bulk and reach, Lewis could keep his opponents at a distance (thus protecting his frail beard) -- the 'jab' of the "jab-and-grab."

And then when he tired, attempted his own power shots, and/or his opponent evaded Lewis' reach, he could tie the opponent up -- the 'grab' of the "jab-and-grab."

Using this technique, Lewis was able to master foes such as Tua, Holyfield, and Tyson. Fighters whom he almost certainly would have lost to had he engaged in repeated exchanges. His chin was not up to snuff with any of these fighters', and he and Steward wisely shaped their gameplans against those opponents accordingly.


So for anyone who watches a Wlad Klitschko fight and deems it 'boring,' you can partially thank Lennox Lewis. Had Manny Steward's "jab-and-grab" principles not worked so well with the more-limited Brit/Canadian/Jamaican, the Ukranian champion would not be using them today. The difference is that it took Lewis only 26 fights before he was 1-punch felled by McCall, whereas it took 42 fights before Klitschko was TKO'd against Sanders (when Wlad was TKO'd by Ross Purrity in his 25th fight -- due to exhaustion, not from punching power, per se -- he did not alter his style almost at all). So the boxing community got to see the 'less-cautious' Wlad in approximately 16 more fights than they got to see the 'less-cautious' Lewis.

Had Lewis not ducked Sanders (Sanders' own words, as told to him, allegedly, by Lewis), we might have gotten to see much less of Lewis, period. But that is a story for another day.

For now it's sufficient to note that Lewis was hurt against more than 1 of every 4 fighters he faced, and that this softness of jaw forced him and his team to adopt the "jab-and-grab" style so that LL could remain a viable HW challenger and champion. Without his massive frame, Lewis would likely have been relegated to the dustbin of HW history, crushed by the likes of Tua, Holyfield, Tyson, etc. (I still believe that Prime Tyson and Prime Holyfield easily dispatch [I]any version of LL, but a smaller version [say 6'3", 220 lbs] of LL would have lost to any version of Tyson and Holyfield, possibly Tua).

But Lewis: was born large; found the style which suited his physical gifts and shortcomings; and came along at the right time. And, as they say, the rest is history.

Just don't let the Lewis-fawners sell you on the 'strength' of Lennox's chin. Never has a HW mentioned as possibly among the top-15 all-time had as weak a set of whiskers as did LL, the owner of two embarrassing 1-punch KO/TKO defeats.

Peace.

[ChrisPontius]

Either this guy is a troll or he's mentally retarded, blindly following some guy who ever dropped the term "jab and grab".


One last time paulfv, in which fights did Lewis "jab and grab"?
We already established that the Tua fight contained a grand total of 26 clinches so that one's out.
And if you give a fight, point out exactly in which rounds he "jabbed and grabbed". How many clinches were there?

[paulfv]

Either this guy is a troll or he's mentally retarded, blindly following some guy who ever dropped the term "jab and grab".
No, acttually, my IQ places me in the category of 'genius,' as I just posted on the lounge board.

You seem to be a Lennox-fawner, as your avatar would allude to. I am sorry for you that 'your guy's' mandible was not made of sterner stuff. That's neither my fault nor my problem.

Read what I wrote, try to comprehend it. I know it will be challenging for it to penetrate your "Lewis = greatest" filter, but do your best. Then go do some research and get back to me. Until then, your ignorant nuthugging will be addressed as it should be by me - it will be ignored, as it doesn't merit my attention or time.

Peace.

[paulfv]

Wow, Lewis on the deck twice...WORST CHIN OF ALLLL TIME!

Got any grainy stills of Roy looking glassy-eyed on the floor?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs Glen Johnson

After a crunching right hand to the ear/temple/side
of the head sent RJJ sprawling down to the canvas
where he hit his head hard against the floor of the
ring, resulting in even more impact. RJJ was out
for around 8 minutes, all told. KO.

* Round 9 (2004)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs. Antonio Tarver (Fight #2 of 3 vs AT) (also known
as the "Got any excuses tonight, Roy?" fight, due to
AT saying those exact words to RJJ during the pre-fight
instructions/touch gloves meeting of the fighters at
the center of the ring)

After being drilled by a sizzling counter left hook
from Tarver, Roy Jones looks to regain his senses
and his footing while attempting to return to his
feet before the count of 10. Despite Roy's success
at standing back up, the ref waved off the fight
following Tarver's punch and this knockdown. TKO.

* Round 2 (2004)

[paulfv]

After finding, and placing captions on, the two RJJ 1-punch KO/TKO loss pics, I went back and 'touched-up' the two LL 1-punch KO/TKO loss pics in order to make them read more clearly, provide a little more information, and define which was LL's 1-punch KO loss and which was LL's 1-punch TKO loss. The updated pics:



Here's some visual evidence of LL displaying his non-granite chin:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs. Oliver McCall (fight
#1 of 2 vs McCall)

Lewis after a single, chopping
right hand from McCall
separated Lennox both from
his faculties and the WBC
championship. Lewis' future
trainer, Manny Steward,
worked McCall's corner and
had trained McCall for the
matchup. This was the fight
which convinced Lewis (and
Steward) that he must
protect his weak chin in
future bouts if he wanted to
remain a viable HW
contender and/or champion.
That is, this is the fight
which would prove the
origin of the "jab-and-grab"
Lennox Lewis most fight
fans were accustomed to
seeing. TKO.

* Round #2 (1994)
------------------------------------------------------

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
vs Hasim Rahman (fight #1 of 2 vs Rahman)

Lewis being counted out after one
well-placed Rahman right hand sent LL
crashing to the canvas in a heap, arms
splayed over his head. Rahman's big
punch earned him the WBC and IBF belts.
KO.

* Round #5 (2001)
------------------------------------------------------

[Drexl]

No, acttually, my IQ places me in the category of 'genius,' as I just posted on the lounge board.


What kind of cunt would post about his IQ. :roll:


"Acttually" - genius. :lol:

[paulfv]

There's a thread/poll on the 'lounge' board named "How Intelligent Do You Consider Yourself to Be?", or something like that. The answer which I gave was the same kind of answer other posters gave. A person might expect to post about his IQ on a thread which asks about intelligence. I would imagine that makes sense to you.

Just updated the Lewis pics in my previous post once more, for a bit more information. Should be the final edit.

[ChrisPontius]

No, acttually, my IQ places me in the category of 'genius,' as I just posted on the lounge board.

You seem to be a Lennox-fawner, as your avatar would allude to. I am sorry for you that 'your guy's' mandible was not made of sterner stuff. That's neither my fault nor my problem.

Read what I wrote, try to comprehend it. I know it will be challenging for it to penetrate your "Lewis = greatest" filter, but do your best. Then go do some research and get back to me. Until then, your ignorant nuthugging will be addressed as it should be by me - it will be ignored, as it doesn't merit my attention or time.

Peace.

Ducking my questions, repeating what you said and bloating about your own intelligence.


Thanks for that, that was even more clear and obvious than saying "yes i am a troll".

[Drexl]

There's a thread on the 'lounge' board named "How intelligent do you consider yourself?", or something like that. The answer which I gave was the same kind of answer other posters gave. A person might expect to post about his IQ on a thread which asks about intelligence. I would imagine that makes sense to you.

Just updated the Lewis pics in my previous post once more, for a bit more information. Should be the final edit.


Thought so. A-Grade tosser.

"..I'm a genius acttually.."

what a cunt. :lol:

[paulfv]

Ducking my questions, repeating what you said and bloating about your own intelligence.

You questioned my intelligence, and received your answer, as it were. To your dismay.

Your other questions don't deserve an answer, and will get none. Feel free to do your own research, and come back and post your results. I'm no one's research assistant.

[paulfv]

Thought so. A-Grade tosser...cunt...
Ah, that fragile thing - nearly as frail as Lewis' chin itself - has surfaced again: The British Ego (wounded by valid evidence 'against' a fighter of non-British origins, no less).

Sorry, 'mate.' The facts are as I stated them. My condolensces to your wounded sense of national pride.

I guess you can put Lewis' chin over there on the shelf with the off-white teeth and the decline of the Empire, eh? So sorry you lost Hong Kong in 2000.

Pity, that.

Oh, well. You still have Posh and Becks.

[Jack]

Ah, that fragile thing - nearly as fragile as Lewis' chin itself - has reared itself again: The British Ego (for a fighter of non-British origins, no less).And the 'British Ego' is almost as fragile as American's self-retraint, you fat prick.
Sorry, 'mate.' The facts are as I stated them. My condolensces to your wounded sense of national pride.

I guess you can put Lewis' chin over there on the shelf with the off-white teeth and the decline of the Empire, eh? So sorry you lost Hong Kong in 2000.

Pity, that.American's is full of people who are obese.

and we still have our Empire - Just under a different name. It's smaller, sure, but still vastly more important and bigger than anything ameirca has. Go on, amuse me. Do a comparison between the population and size of the countries, between our Commonwealth and america's "empire".

Please :lol:

Oh, well. You still have Posh and Becks.The ones who live in America. Beckham is also being paid £275m (Over $500m) by american's.

Try again "genius".

Reading your posts makes me wonder if Einstein and Newton were as simple.

[Drexl]

Ah, that fragile thing - nearly as frail as Lewis' chin itself - has surfaced again: The British Ego (wounded by valid evidence 'against' a fighter of non-British origins, no less).

I'm British???

When did this happen, genius?? :lol:

[paulfv]

I'm British???

When did this happen, genius?? :lol:

Ah, just a simple Lewis fawner. Sad, you're not even a Brit, like the wounded poster above you. And yet you still cling to Lewis. *shakes head*

[paulfv]

To the video tape, please:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Rahman's one-punch KO of the frail-chinned Lewis. Kind of sad how the arms flail about the head of the dreadlocked one, as the referee prepares to count to 10.

[Drexl]

Ah, just a simple Lewis fawner. Sad, you're not even a Brit, like the wounded poster above you. And yet you still cling to Lewis. *shakes head*


Apology accepted, genius. :hi:


Tell me tough guy, who are your favourite fighters?

[paulfv]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rahman is a decent fighter. I mean, for a guy once knocked out of a ring, he's not bad. Just ask Lennox...

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[Drexl]

Rahman is a decent fighter. I mean, for a guy once knocked out of a ring, he's not bad. Just ask Lennox...

I asked Lennox and he said Rahman is decent.

He also said to check out the rematch and get back to him.

[paulfv]

I asked Lennox and he said Rahman is decent.

He also said to check out the rematch and get back to him.
Hasim sent me this clip, said it summed things up well:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[paulfv]

Oh, and Oliver sent me this:

dxhKSVlMWXA

...after I asked him how difficult the fight was after knocking out Lennox in 2 rounds. You'll see an ashamed Lewis make a quick appearance at the start of the video, wearing shades.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Drexl]

You are starting to sound like an over-excited 15 year old girl.



Hey - why don't you post that Rahman clip again, champ?


:roll:

[DamonD]

I'm going to make a wild guess that his cunning reply will be of Rahman or McCall knocking Lewis down, yes.

Don't place a bet on it! But something, yes, some strange sense tells me that could well happen...

For a bonus point, I'm guessing it'll be accompanied by the usual sign of the trolling idiot - the dreaded Multiple Smilies.

[Thom]

Lennox, he got smoked by one punch on 2 occasions while apparently in sparring Ruiz decked him. Jeremy Williams had him on the canvas multiple times in sparring too.

:patsch

Williams threw Lewis to the canvas because he was frustrated that Lennox kept embarrassing him.

And can you point me to link from a reputable source regarding the Ruiz incident? I've never seen any real confirmation that it took place.

[DamonD]

I think it was either Courtney Shand or Harold Knight (Lewis's two long-time assistant trainers) that said they wouldn't say who DID knock Lewis down in sparring over the years, but would confirm that Ruiz wasn't one of them.

The rumoured guy was meant to be Brewster...I have half a feeling Ruiz's name got thrown about in King's attempts to make him look credible as a WBA contender and champ.

The Jeremy Williams one, everyone knows to be judo throws not punches.

[Thom]

I think it was either Courtney Shand or Harold Knight (Lewis's two long-time assistant trainers) that said they wouldn't say who DID knock Lewis down in sparring over the years, but would confirm that Ruiz wasn't one of them.

The rumoured guy was meant to be Brewster...I have half a feeling Ruiz's name got thrown about in King's attempts to make him look credible as a WBA contender and champ.

The Jeremy Williams one, everyone knows to be judo throws not punches.

Thanks.

[barneyrub]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rahman is a decent fighter. I mean, for a guy once knocked out of a ring, he's not bad. Just ask Lennox...

:rofl :rofl :roflyou and JLC are clearly one in the same, ive noticed when JLC announces he is leaving a thread once he has been beaten in an argument you appear and carry on the same argument!

[Stewbear]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rahman is a decent fighter. I mean, for a guy once knocked out of a ring, he's not bad. Just ask Lennox...

:rofl :rofl :rofl
i may be wrong but was sugar ray robinson not knocked out of the ring one time?
and louis?

[paulfv]

you and JLC are clearly one in the same, ive noticed when JLC announces he is leaving a thread once he has been beaten in an argument you appear and carry on the same argument!

Never met him, but if he's carrying on the much-needed task of debunking the Lewis hagiographers, I like him already.

[achillesthegreat]

Only morons say RJJ has a better chin.

[PrideOfWales]

Here's my donation to the thread, carry on Pauly :D


Great videos man... Lewis was brilliant. Watching these makes you realise why LL dominated for so long. His movement and speed for a heavyweight is superb compared to anyone else right now.