Thrilla in Manilla Round 15

[GPater11093]

just watched the thrilla in manilla documnetry on channel 4 today (i taped it) and it got me thinking what would have happened if Eddie Futch never stopped the fight. As the general consesus was it was a close fight going into the last round and it hung in the balance (i think i had 1 round to Ali but cant remember).

What do you guys think

[Bill Butcher]

If you had that fight by 1 round for Ali you must be new to this shit.

Frazier needed a KO without question & if Ali didnt have the strength to finish Joe then I think he sees it out with his jab alone, Frazier was all done, it was just hate fuelled adrenalin keeping him going.

[warrior85]

ive often thought about this,i see it goin like this:frazier marching forward throwin whatever he can with an exhausted ali clinching as soon as joe got within arms reach then on the break hitting joe with a quick 1-2 before claiming him again,i see this pattern playin out for at least 2:30 of the round with both fighters near collapsing holding each other til the final bell.

[GPater11093]

If you had that fight by 1 round for Ali you must be new to this shit.

Frazier needed a KO without question & if Ali didnt have the strength to finish Joe then I think he sees it out with his jab alone, Frazier was all done, it was just hate fuelled adrenalin keeping him going.

i dont remember my scoring its just in the thrilla documentry all the journalists mentioned 1 round to Ali and i thought i must have had it round about there

i definitly had ali winning

[My dinner with Conteh]

i dont remember my scoring its just in the thrilla documentry all the journalists mentioned 1 round to Ali and i thought i must have had it round about there

i definitly had ali winning

It was a very close fight so there's no need to defend your scoring. Joe did need a KO though. I personally think the 15th would have been three minutes of holding, leaning and seeing out the clock, from both fighters who had little left. Ali winning on a UD.

[Robbi]

It was a very close fight so there's no need to defend your scoring. Joe did need a KO though. I personally think the 15th would have been three minutes of holding, leaning and seeing out the clock, from both fighters who had little left. Ali winning on a UD.

You're probably right. That avatar is a classic. Looks like an old 70's schoolboy never like Emlyn.

[Dempsey1238]

Fraizer was way behide on the real scorecards though.

I think round 15 would follow the same patter as rounds 12-14 did. With Ali landed the jab, and messing up Joe's face more.

[My dinner with Conteh]

You're probably right. That avatar is a classic. Looks like an old 70's schoolboy never like Emlyn.

Cheers. I want to meet the wearer of that shirt. :yep

[groove]

Frazier would need a miracle to win. He was finished after the 14th. One tough fighter. He was battered in the 13th and 14th and still kept on coming. He was one underrated fighter on this forum when you see the likes of True Writer and cent dick spreading their crap.

[$.02]

Frazier would need a miracle to win. He was finished after the 14th. One tough fighter. He was battered in the 13th and 14th and still kept on coming. He was one underrated fighter on this forum when you see the likes of True Writer and cent dick spreading their crap.

I never underrate him. I just think Head to Head against the greats...Well..dont make me say it..:dealI know you guys are having your moment here about his classic fight:think

[OBCboxer]

I never underrate him. I just think Head to Head against the greats...Well..dont make me say it..:dealI know you guys are having your moment here about his classic fight:think

About what? That he is a great fighter and matches up well with a lot of other great Heavyweights.

[OBCboxer]

I'll go against the grain and say Frazier KO. If you could remember as soon as Ali got off of his stool, he collapsed. It wasn't some sort of celebration or relief, he just flat out collapsed. Frazier had more in the tank and was still capable of fighting where as Ali was ready to fall any second from exhaustion. In my opinion, one left hook would have ended the fight in favor of Frazier winning by KO.

Of course having your only good eye closed didn't help Frazier and Futch didn't make a bad decision. I just think it's not as clear cut as most think.

[JohnThomas1]

I'll go against the grain and say Frazier KO. If you could remember as soon as Ali got off of his stool, he collapsed. It wasn't some sort of celebration or relief, he just flat out collapsed. Frazier had more in the tank and was still capable of fighting where as Ali was ready to fall any second from exhaustion. In my opinion, one left hook would have ended the fight in favor of Frazier winning by KO.

Of course having your only good eye closed didn't help Frazier and Futch didn't make a bad decision. I just think it's not as clear cut as most think.

Frazier's own cornerman says he no longer had that hook. Noway Futch is pulling out a warrior like Frazier without fantastic reason, no matter how much we might want to think the other way.

I7cDq-X_DLE

Just for good measure here's the ref's comments. He was thinking of stopping it himself and believes he would have next round.

3BJODy0Pehw

As for Ali ready to fall from exhaustion and Frazier having more in the tanl, welll

:patsch

[OBCboxer]

Frazier's own cornerman says he no longer had that hook. Noway Futch is pulling out a warrior like Frazier without fantastic reason, no matter how much we might want to think the other way.

I7cDq-X_DLE

Just for good measure here's the ref's comments. He was thinking of stopping it himself and believes he would have next round.

3BJODy0Pehw

As for Ali ready to fall from exhaustion and Frazier having more in the tanl, welll

:patsch

First of all he still had the hook. It most certainly wasn't the same but it was there. Ali did in fact collapse after he got off of his stool after the fight was called because of exhaustion. If he collapsed during round 15 it would have been a TKO victory for Frazier if Ali couldn't continue in which he likely wouldn't have been nor would he want to.

[JohnThomas1]

First of all he still had the hook. It most certainly wasn't the same but it was there. Ali did in fact collapse after he got off of his stool after the fight was called because of exhaustion. If he collapsed during round 15 it would have been a TKO victory for Frazier if Ali couldn't continue in which he likely wouldn't have been nor would he want to.

Ali was ALWAYS continuing, anything else is wishful thinking. He only collapsed upon hearing the fight was over. Bell rings, he goes out and gets the job done, simple. This is Ali and he was ready to go. Just look at round 14.

Did you even watch the vids? The ref was ready to call it off and Benton, his cornerman, says he no longer had the hook and his punches were slaps.

I know exactly what people would be saying if Frazier went out and did get hurt in a worst case scenario.

It's either a very likely Ali stoppage or simply an Ali decision.

[flamengo]

....Ali 'colapsed' as soon as the result was announced, for one reason.... to get the back slappers away from him... He simply needed space to breath. He finished the 14th round extremely well, considering the exhaustion. Joe had been battered terribly in the 13th and 14th which is clear testimony to his toughness.

Had the 15th round began, Ali.. in my estimation.. had the goods to continue. I assume Joes corner, the Doc and the referree would have taken a close look at Joe in the first minute of the 15th... Joe would have been subjected to the same punishment of the prior rounds, and the fight would, deservably... and humanely .. be stopped.

[OBCboxer]

Ali was ALWAYS continuing, anything else is wishful thinking. He only collapsed upon hearing the fight was over. Bell rings, he goes out and gets the job done, simple. This is Ali and he was ready to go. Just look at round 14.

Did you even watch the vids? The ref was ready to call it off and Benton, his cornerman, says he no longer had the hook and his punches were slaps.

I know exactly what people would be saying if Frazier went out and did get hurt in a worst case scenario.

It's either a very likely Ali stoppage or simply an Ali decision.

Yes I saw the vids many times. The Ref was to call it off if he took more punishment. How do we know he would have taken more punishment from a more exhausted Ali? How do we know Ali would've quit or just collapsed? We don't. It's purely speculation.

Joe Frazier was willing and able to fight, he wouldn't have quit just the same as Ali. Ali stood up to celebrate but his legs gave out and collapsed because he couldn't stand up he was that exhausted. Frazier still had that "dream" as he would call it to beat Ali again. He would've definetly had enough to atleast finish the fight.

[JohnThomas1]

Yes I saw the vids many times. The Ref was to call it off if he took more punishment. How do we know he would have taken more punishment from a more exhausted Ali? How do we know Ali would've quit or just collapsed? We don't. It's purely speculation.


So you take zero notice of what the men in his corner said? Benton and Futch?

Ali slapped Frazier around in round 14 and looked for sure the fresher and stronger man. I don't know how you could possibly think Frazier was in better shape. Hanging onto this Ali collapsing thing is pure fantasy, Ali's not collapsing if Joe doesn't quit in his corner.

Ali had finished his marathon and let it all drain out. If the marathon was 2km longer he would have run it then let it all out.

Round 15 was more of the same, Ali slapping Frazier about some with a possible ref's stoppage. Frazier wasn't about to morph into some fresh ready to roll fighter all of a sudden. A great fight, and a grueling one.

[Robbi]

So you take zero notice of what the men in his corner said? Benton and Futch?

Ali slapped Frazier around in round 14 and looked for sure the fresher and stronger man. I don't know how you could possibly think Frazier was in better shape. Hanging onto this Ali collapsing thing is pure fantasy, Ali's not collapsing if Joe doesn't quit in his corner.

Ali had finished his marathon and let it all drain out. If the marathon was 2km longer he would have run it then let it all out.

Round 15 was more of the same, Ali slapping Frazier about some with a possible ref's stoppage. Frazier wasn't about to morph into some fresh ready to roll fighter all of a sudden. A great fight, and a grueling one.


Agreed.

[My dinner with Conteh]

So you take zero notice of what the men in his corner said? Benton and Futch?

Ali slapped Frazier around in round 14 and looked for sure the fresher and stronger man. I don't know how you could possibly think Frazier was in better shape. Hanging onto this Ali collapsing thing is pure fantasy, Ali's not collapsing if Joe doesn't quit in his corner.

Ali had finished his marathon and let it all drain out. If the marathon was 2km longer he would have run it then let it all out.

Round 15 was more of the same, Ali slapping Frazier about some with a possible ref's stoppage. Frazier wasn't about to morph into some fresh ready to roll fighter all of a sudden. A great fight, and a grueling one.


Spot on. Anyone who thinks otherwise need not be taken seriously.

[Waynegrade]

The truly amazing thing about this fight. Is how deep Muhammad could go to the well... Frazier in the middle rds, was putting it on Ali. Ali sucked it up, and beat Frazier at his own game. He went into the trenches to take it. Greatest heart and greatest chin in history. As for the 15th? I don`t think `Smokin` Joe had the gas to get his hook to Ali`s chin. Ali fights carefully, in spurts, carefully wins the 15th and the fight. Joe Frazier(in defeat) showed more in this fight than many other heavyweight champs in victory. Class act and class champion...

[la-califa]

Let's say the 15th was even. What would have been the scorecard's? Did Frazier need a knockout? He would have been hardpressed to at least make the 15th even. He didn't have enough left to go out and go for the knockout.

[McGrain]

I always say - who cares?

Frazier DIDN'T make it out. Ali was announced the winner. This conversation happened between Futch and Joe in the corner just before the fight was stopped:

EDDIE: What's happening with his right hand?

JOE: ...

EDDIE: Joe, what's happing with his right hand?

JOE: Can't see them to good...


Futch stops the fight.

Eddie knew there was a problem, a serious one, namely the swelling combined with a pre-exsisting condition in his fighter meant he was faced with sending a blind boxer out to take on an Ali who was on song and in his rythym. You can't do that.

What is more, Joe knew there was a problem. "Can't see them to good", for a man like Joe, is the same as HELP ME for you or I.

Right decision, right result.

[la-califa]

I always say - who cares?

Frazier DIDN'T make it out. Ali was announced the winner. This conversation happened between Futch and Joe in the corner just before the fight was stopped:

EDDIE: What's happening with his right hand?

JOE: ...

EDDIE: Joe, what's happing with his right hand?

JOE: Can't see them to good...


Futch stops the fight.

Eddie knew there was a problem, a serious one, namely the swelling combined with a pre-exsisting condition in his fighter meant he was faced with sending a blind boxer out to take on an Ali who was on song and in his rythym. You can't do that.

What is more, Joe knew there was a problem. "Can't see them to good", for a man like Joe, is the same as HELP ME for you or I.

Right decision, right result.Yes, If the great Eddie Futch says his fighter has had enough, Then that's it... End of Controversy.

[Damo1712]

If futch never threw the towel in, Ali would have quit

Marvis Frazier said so that Ali went to the corner after the 14th and said cut em off, this was corroborated to Marvis by Willy the Worm somoneorother as seen in the documentary

If the 15th would have happened Joe would have ko'd ali

its quite ironic that ali wanted to quit but joe didnt

[Bill Butcher]

If futch never threw the towel in, Ali would have quit

Marvis Frazier said so that Ali went to the corner after the 14th and said cut em off, this was corroborated to Marvis by Willy the Worm somoneorother as seen in the documentary

If the 15th would have happened Joe would have ko'd ali

its quite ironic that ali wanted to quit but joe didnt

Grow up.

If you seriously believe this then I dont believe you have ever seen an Ali fight, the fight was in the bag points wise, Joe was ready to go, they were hated rivals, Ali had just completed 14 rds of hell..... & you believe he was just gonna sit on his stool when the 15th was due to start or that Joe would have KOd Ali when he hadnt landed shit in the past 2 rds & ate suitcases full of leather himself. Please.

:lol:

[Bill Butcher]

Oh, you guys should check out the Ali/Foreman fight, not long after Ali KOs George in rd 8, he sits down in the middle of the ring to avoid all the celebrations & shit, very similar to the 3rd Frazier fight..... now are you gonna tell me Ali couldnt stand or collapsed after the Foreman fight too.

Some of you guys have to learn that sometimes the fighter you wanted to win doesnt win... in this case, Ali beat Frazier.... WITHOUT QUESTION OR DISPUTE IMO.

[leverage]

Ali would have picked up where he left off, probably winning by tko. There was no way that frazier was going to come back and ko ali, he was nothing more than a punching bag at that point. He stood a good chance at getting seriously injured, and futch showed his loyalty as a trainer and a friend and did the right thing in stopping it.

[JohnThomas1]

If futch never threw the towel in, Ali would have quit

Marvis Frazier said so that Ali went to the corner after the 14th and said cut em off, this was corroborated to Marvis by Willy the Worm somoneorother as seen in the documentary

If the 15th would have happened Joe would have ko'd ali

its quite ironic that ali wanted to quit but joe didnt


:rofl

[round15]

I honestly don't know how the story has been twisted and turned over the years. What I do know and remember is that with my own eyes, I watched Dr. Ferdie Pacheco in a sports interview clearly state that Ali wanted his gloves cut off after the 14th round. Ali came back to the corner and said with a few more expletives, "cut em off, I ain't going back out there, that' man's crazy." Willie the "Worm" Monroe said he heard the exact same thing.

Bundini Brown and Pacheco were both pleading with Ali for one more round while Angelo Dundee stayed silent in the corner, rubbing down Ali's legs and arms for the 15th. As the moments between the round continued, Pacheco than looked over at Frazier's corner and saw Eddie Futch sit Frazier down after rising up and he knew then that Futch was going to stop the fight. Carlos Padilla went to the corner of the loser of the round which was the right thing to do considering Ali staggered Frazier in the 14th.

Willie the "Worm" Monroe was out of his ringside seat trying to get George Benton's attention and at the exact same moment, Carlos Padilla stopped the fight. Some on this forum are adamant that Ali said it after the 11th round, which I don't believe is true. In fact, Dundee and Pacheco in different interviews both have said Ali uttered the exact same words after the 11th round of Manilla and after the first round of his ill-fated fight with Larry Holmes, which was the question, "How much more can I take, how many more rounds to go?"

He never mentioned anything about wanting his gloves cut off after the 11th round in Manilla. The 11th round from what I remember was a decent Frazier round and only after that round did Ali start to turn the tide. He was practically spent after the 12th, 13th and 14th, punching Frazier with whatever he had left and realized that Frazier was still on his feet coming forward. Dundee and Pacheco were scared for both men because they both stated that they've never seen Ali sit down on his punches moreso in Manilla against Frazier than any other opponent. Add to the fact that the ringside heat was in excess of 110 F.

[Robbi]

Ali TKO14 Frazier. End of story.

[My dinner with Conteh]

He never mentioned anything about wanting his gloves cut off after the 11th round in Manilla.


He said he was going to quit after the 10th, for the umpteenth time. Obviously, you'll blank it out of your mind the second you read it. :yep


ps. Funny how it took Willie Monroe about 20 years to announce what he actually saw at ringside isn't it? :think

[Dempsey1238]

I dont know why people read to much into quitting or not. If Ali was GOING to quit, He should have done it around the middle rounds when Fraizer was smoking. And taking EVEYTHING Joe had. Not in round 15, when you are beating Fraizer from pillar to post. And relly giving him one of the worse whippings of all time.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I dont know why people read to much into quitting or not. If Ali was GOING to quit, He should have done it around the middle rounds when Fraizer was smoking. And taking EVEYTHING Joe had. Not in round 15, when you are beating Fraizer from pillar to post. And relly giving him one of the worse whippings of all time.


Some people simply want to believe that Ali wanted to quit but Frazier didn't. Sad isn't it.

[Dempsey1238]

Like I said, they read into much of the comments, sure Ali may have wanted it stop around round ten about when Fraizer was laying it on Ali, but he didnt and soldier on to relly turn the tied in rounds 12, 13 and 14.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Like I said, they read into much of the comments, sure Ali may have wanted it stop around round ten about when Fraizer was laying it on Ali, but he didnt and soldier on to relly turn the tied in rounds 12, 13 and 14.


Yes, the actual fight report read: "No one believed Ali when he said he was going to quit after the 10th round".

[round15]

He said he was going to quit after the 10th, for the umpteenth time. Obviously, you'll blank it out of your mind the second you read it. :yep


ps. Funny how it took Willie Monroe about 20 years to announce what he actually saw at ringside isn't it? :think

So I guess Ali's fight doctor and one of the most important men in his career is changing his story too?

Dr. Ferdie Pacheco said it after the 14th round. Not the 10th, not the 11th, not the 12th, or the 13th. I clearly heard him say the FOURTEENTH round which was the last round of the fight before it was stopped! Correct my ears if they're wrong but 14th spoken DOES NOT sound like the 11th.

People on this forum confuse the 11th round of the FOTC with the 11th round of Manilla. The only thing Ali asked his corner was the same question he asked after the second round against Larry Holmes.
"How much more do I have to go?"

NOTHING was mentioned in relation to the 11th round of Manilla as the questioning moment of Ali wanting to quit the fight.

Funny, I heard Willie the "Worm" Monroe discuss this nearly 20 years earlier, especially when the broadcasts of the "Greatest Fights Ever," television series was created.

I wasn't there in Manilla and I think it's safe to say that you weren't there either. I'm basing my evidence on concrete interviews that I've heard with respect to the most important men in Ali's career. In fact, Dundee and Pacheco were fearful of Padilla coming to their corner first after the 14th round seeing the condition Ali was in. Both of them mentioned this in interviews. What happened? Padilla went to Frazier's corner smartly because he was the loser of the round. For those on this forum with contrary beliefs, Ali did collapse in his corner after he was announced the winner and Frazier did seem slightly fresher and ready to go out on his shield, which makes his protest of Futch that more believable. Dr. Pacheco clearly stated how tired Ali was after the 14th round because he had practically punched himself out.

Who is the better person in Ali's corner to explain the effects of what both fighters were going through other than the fight doctor himself, Dr Ferdie Pacheco? He clearly explains the pathology with regards to the physical condition of both fighters and the ramifications of their battle.

[My dinner with Conteh]

So I guess Ali's fight doctor and one of the most important men in his career is changing his story too?

Yes. Of course. Just like Cooper-Clay became 'Angelo tearing the glove' (which had to be replaced) and a 'five minute break between the 4th and 5th'. Didn't happen.



NOTHING was mentioned in relation to the 11th round of Manilla as the questioning moment of Ali wanting to quit.



It was in the 10th,for the 1000th time. In 1975 Ali said he was "going to quit after the 10th", the round changed over the years, as it's simply a better story. This must be the 20th time I've told you, my bet is that it still won't sink in. The 10th became the 14th, got it? You believe the latter, I believe the former.



Funny, I heard Willie the "Worm" Monroe discuss this nearly 20 years earlier, especially when the broadcasts of the "Greatest Fights Ever," television series was created.

Yeah, he kept it a secret for 20 years, eh. :lol:


I wasn't there in Manilla and I think it's safe to say that you weren't there either. I basing my evidence on concrete interviews that I've heard with respect to the most important men in Ali's career.


I'm basing mine on reports from 1975, not years and years later when stories are rehashed for dramatic purposes and memories fade. I heard the Willie Monroe 'eavesdropping' story just a few years ago too- and guess what, a new documentary and now Marvis Frazier saw it too. :lol:

[Robbi]

In fact, Dundee and Pacheco were fearful of Padilla coming to their corner first after the 14th round seeing the condition Ali was in. Both of them mentioned this in interviews. What happened? Padilla went to Frazier's corner smartly because he was the loser of the round. For those on this forum with contrary beliefs, Ali did collapse in his corner after he was announced the winner and Frazier did seem slightly fresher and ready to go out on his shield, which makes his protest of Futch that more believable. Dr. Pacheco clearly stated how tired Ali was after the 14th round because he had practically punched himself out.

I don't give a monkeys what Dundee or Pachecho said about the end of the 14th round. They are both saying all that to sound amicable about the whole situation on what happened during and at the end of the round. Dundee knows that when one fighter recieves a beating throughout a round and the referee whats to check on one or both fighters, the referee will obviously check on the fighter who recieved heavy punishment first. Considering the fight was fought in terribly humid conditions, the pace was high, and both fighters had taken heavy blows, then he would perhaps have checked on Ali after everything was fine with Frazier.

Ali had punched himself out and was physically drained, no question. But Frazier was the one who's face was like the elephant man, not Ali's. If the fight had sounded for the last round, Ali would have been the fighter in the ascendancy. What would have transpired during the last round is anyones guess. Who's to say Frazier wouldn't have conjured up one last great effort to fight on even terms with Ali? But his sight was so badly effected that would have been highly unlikely.

Ali collapsing at the end of the fight was due to the sheer relief of the fight being stopped combined with the fierce battle in scorching tempratures. Mentally he became relaxed due to the fight ending and physically his body just flopped like pancake batter.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Good post. Out of interest, I wonder when the 'cut the gloves off he's a crazy man' story first surfaced, early 90s perhaps? It took its time to be told didn't it? :yep

[Bokaj]

Good post. Out of interest, I wonder when the 'cut the gloves off he's a crazy man' story first surfaced, early 90s perhaps? It took its time to be told didn't it? :yep

And how loveley isn't it that this story surfaces 15 years later from someone called "The Worm"? If presenting that as plain truth isn't dilligent fact checking, then what is? :nut

I suppose The Worm just had had to stay underground for a couple of years before he resurfaced.

[Robbi]

Good post. Out of interest, I wonder when the 'cut the gloves off he's a crazy man' story first surfaced, early 90s perhaps? It took its time to be told didn't it? :yep

Scouser. It's the same scenario as running a marathon. Some of those long distance runners collapse after they cross the finish line. It's a combination of everything that they'd been doing for 3 or 4 hours suddenly coming to an end. They just collapse like cheap tents, some of them anyway. It's mental and physical relief.

Yeah, it was let out the bag rather late wasn't it. :D

[My dinner with Conteh]

And how loveley isn't it that this story surfaces 15 years later from someone called "The Worm"? If presenting that as plain truth isn't dilligent fact checking, then what is? :nut

I suppose The Worm just had had to stay underground for a couple of years before he resurfaced.


:lol:

Imagine in 10 years Wlad says he was near Lewis's corner at the end of the 6th when he was fighting Vitali and Lennox said "Rip my mouthpiece out, he's a terminator, he'll kill me, that's what he does, that's all he does". :yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

Scouser. It's the same scenario as running a marathon. Some of those long distance runners collapse after they cross the finish line. It's a combination of everything that they'd been doing for 3 or 4 hours suddenly coming to an end. They just collapse like cheap tents, some of them anyway. It's mental and physical relief.




Of course. On many an occasion do you see than collapse (or fall) at the line. Ask SalSanchez he'll know. ;)


Yeah, it was let out the bag rather late wasn't it. :D


I wonder why they took so long for such a beautiful nugget to be told. :yep I've always been curious as to when the Cooper myth surfaced too actually.

[Bokaj]

:lol:

Imagine in 10 years Wlad says he was near Lewis's corner at the end of the 6th when he was fighting Vitali and Lennox said "Rip my mouthpiece out, he's a terminator, he'll kill me, that's what he does, that's all he does". :yep

:rofl

[leverage]

Ali's heart and will to win would never allow him to quit, and he would have continued to pummel frazier untill the final bell, if the ref didn't stop the fight first.

[round15]

Ali said "cut em off" after the end of the 14th round. How could it not be more evident as he was staggering back to his own corner? He didn't say it after the 10th. Why would he say that five rounds before the ending of the fight, when he still had some energy left in his tank?

Like I said, maybe Pacheco is changing his story after all these years, maybe Ali said absolutely nothing and we're all just imagining this stuff? What I know from interviews that I've watched and heard with my own ears is that Ali SAID he wanted to quit after the 14th round. The only person ignoring him in the corner was Angelo Dundee, the head trainer who's job it was to prepare his fighter for the last round. The only time Pacheco ever said Ali LITERALLY asked to have his gloves cut off was after the 14th. Ali never said "cut em off," after the 10th. I do believe Ali questioned his own resolve in the 10th round, asking his corner how much more he could take. Saying something and doing it are two totally different things as a fact of life.

Do I think Ali would have quit? Probably not, because he was one of the toughest heavyweight champions ever, more than people give him credit for. I do believe that Frazier would have tried to finish the fight on his feet, and even with his face a mess, had slightly more energy than Ali.

[round15]

And how loveley isn't it that this story surfaces 15 years later from someone called "The Worm"? If presenting that as plain truth isn't dilligent fact checking, then what is? :nut

I suppose The Worm just had had to stay underground for a couple of years before he resurfaced.

Do you know who Willie Monroe was, as a fighter?

[round15]

Yes. Of course. Just like Cooper-Clay became 'Angelo tearing the glove' (which had to be replaced) and a 'five minute break between the 4th and 5th'. Didn't happen.

So I guess Angelo Dundee LIED in subsequent interviews about tearing Ali's glove further to stall for more recovery time? So is it safe to say he's changing his story now?

I don't recall a five minute break after the round, but what happened in the corner did give Ali significant recovery time. So I guess Angelo didn't call the ref and tell him that "my guy's gut a rip in his glove?"

I don't care what anyone says, that hook that Cooper nailed Ali with hurt him and he was still stunned going back to the corner. If Dundee sent him out for the next round after the one minute break, I'm not so sure Ali would have been able to avoid getting hit and possibly dropped again by Cooper.

[Bokaj]

Do you know who Willie Monroe was, as a fighter?

No, and I really don't care. I just found the nick name funny under the circumstances.

[Bokaj]

So I guess Angelo Dundee LIED in subsequent interviews about tearing Ali's glove further to stall for more recovery time? So is it safe to say he's changing his story now?

I don't recall a five minute break after the round, but what happened in the corner did give Ali significant recovery time. So I guess Angelo didn't call the ref and tell him that "my guy's gut a rip in his glove?"

I don't care what anyone says, that hook that Cooper nailed Ali with hurt him and he was still stunned going back to the corner. If Dundee sent him out for the next round after the one minute break, I'm not so sure Ali would have been able to avoid getting hit and possibly dropped again by Cooper.

So the fact that the film from the fight shows that Ali/Clay just got a couple of seconds extra means nothing?

He might very well have changed gloves, it just didn't take that long. Doesn't really matter, though. The length of the break is easy to see on the film from the fight and that's the only thing of relevance.

[Bokaj]

Ali said "cut em off" after the end of the 14th round. How could it not be more evident as he was staggering back to his own corner? He didn't say it after the 10th. Why would he say that five rounds before the ending of the fight, when he still had some energy left in his tank?

Like I said, maybe Pacheco is changing his story after all these years, maybe Ali said absolutely nothing and we're all just imagining this stuff? What I know from interviews that I've watched and heard with my own ears is that Ali SAID he wanted to quit after the 14th round. The only person ignoring him in the corner was Angelo Dundee, the head trainer who's job it was to prepare his fighter for the last round. The only time Pacheco ever said Ali LITERALLY asked to have his gloves cut off was after the 14th. Ali never said "cut em off," after the 10th. I do believe Ali questioned his own resolve in the 10th round, asking his corner how much more he could take. Saying something and doing it are two totally different things as a fact of life.

Do I think Ali would have quit? Probably not, because he was one of the toughest heavyweight champions ever, more than people give him credit for. I do believe that Frazier would have tried to finish the fight on his feet, and even with his face a mess, had slightly more energy than Ali.

Man. You're beating this horse into mince meat. If you can't see that the "Ali wanted to quit after the 14:th"-notion has been disproved, then there's really nothing more to say. Because I've had it with this discussion.

[round15]

No, and I really don't care. I just found the nick name funny under the circumstances.

No disrespect to you Bokaj, but Willie Monroe was actually not too bad a boxer that beat Marvin Hagler, Eugene Hart and Billy Douglas.

Believe what you want to believe.

[round15]

Man. You're beating this horse into mince meat. If you can't see that the "Ali wanted to quit after the 14:th"-notion has been disproved, then there's really nothing more to say. Because I've had it with this discussion.

Tell me how it has been disproved when I'm just stating what I've read and heard from the men involved? Is your word the ultimate on this forum? Too Funny.

[Bill Butcher]

Its not what you SAY in boxing, its what you DO......

And Ali beat Frazier thru 14 excellent rds so really thats the end of it whether Ali said he didnt want to continue or not, I`ll stick by facts, Ive watched the full fight loads of times & Ali BEAT Frazier.... absolutely no question.

`Sit down Joe, its all over, & nobody will ever forget what a beating you recieved here today`

Maybe THAT was Futch`s real words ?.... who knows eh ?

[My dinner with Conteh]

So I guess Angelo Dundee LIED in subsequent interviews about tearing Ali's glove further to stall for more recovery time? So is it safe to say he's changing his story now?

I don't recall a five minute break after the round, but what happened in the corner did give Ali significant recovery time. So I guess Angelo didn't call the ref and tell him that "my guy's gut a rip in his glove?"

I don't care what anyone says, that hook that Cooper nailed Ali with hurt him and he was still stunned going back to the corner. If Dundee sent him out for the next round after the one minute break, I'm not so sure Ali would have been able to avoid getting hit and possibly dropped again by Cooper.


The round was an extra ten seconds at most. Clay was badly hurt, but Dundee has since claimed the break was between a 'minute and five minutes', the story has been embellished since, just like in Manilla. Are you saying things like this never happen? Boxing history is littered with such items. Ever heard of the phrase "don't let the fact get in the way of a good story"? If you haven't heard this it's only because your couldn't hear any noise, as Joe Frazier's arse is obviously soundproof.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Believe what you want to believe.


You obviously do.

[mcvey]

The glove was NOT replaced,and the time delay was negligible.

[META5]

The glove was NOT replaced,and the time delay was negligible.

:-( Now you should know better than to let facts get in the way of unsubstantiated claims, hearsay and ignorance ... shame on you!

[ThinBlack]

Ali would floor Frazier in the 15th and probably get a UD, though a TKO wouldn't have been out of the question.

[GPater11093]

this is an old old thread