Top Ten Head 2 Head HW list

[Sweet Science]

What would your list look like if you based it mainly on the Head 2 Head aspect and made that the most important factor in choosing your top ten?

Mine is as follows:


1. Muhammad Ali

2. Joe Louis

3. George Foreman

4. Mike Tyson

5. Sonny Liston

6. Larry Holmes

7. Joe Frazier

8. Jack Johnson

9. Riddick Bowe

10. Evander Holyfield


Just missing out on my list is Lennox Lewis who would be number 11.

[Russell]

Solid list, but Foreman doesn't belong there.

He could always, throughout both his careers, be outboxed. Even someone with a pretty basic set of skills in Schulz could nearly beat him. And some think he did.

You can't slug it out with Foreman... But really... You might as well put Earnie Shavers there instead of Foreman. Besides the chin George had in his second career, there's not much seperating the two.

Bowe does belong there.

I'd replace Holyfield with Lennox Lewis, personally. Serious power, size, skill, a solid chin, great reach...

Can't really fault anyone else on that list, though.

[Sweet Science]

Solid list, but Foreman doesn't belong there.

He could always, throughout both his careers, be outboxed. Even someone with a pretty basic set of skills in Schulz could nearly beat him. And some think he did.

You can't slug it out with Foreman... But really... You might as well put Earnie Shavers there instead of Foreman. Besides the chin George had in his second career, there's not much seperating the two.

Bowe does belong there.

I'd replace Holyfield with Lennox Lewis, personally. Serious power, size, skill, a solid chin, great reach...

Can't really fault anyone else on that list, though.

Personally I think Foreman definitely belongs high on this list (as it focuses on head 2 head), yes he wasn't the slickest of boxers, well he was pretty crude really but with his unmatched raw power he'd knock most people out regardless of their superior skills.

I'd replace Holyfield with Lennox Lewis, personally. Serious power, size, skill, a solid chin, great reach...

The reason Lewis just misses out is his chin, while I definitley wouldn't say he had a glass jaw it certainly wasn't solid.

But nevertheless, Russell I respect your opinions.

[McGrain]

3. George Foreman

Though i'm aware I may be underating him, I beleive Foreman's style means he could be ********* OR outpunched by a great fighter. I think against the greatest punchers (guys like Tyson, Louis, Dempsey and Liston) Foreman would be tryng to win fights whilst hurt against an unhurt opponent, and early. Against a great pucher, that guy will tend to lose, despite George's power/chin/heart trinity. Not that Foreman has "no chance" against ANY of these guys, just I won't be picking him.

4. Mike Tyson

Again, I'd have him lower becase of his limitations. I would pick Liston, for example, to outpunch him (in combination with out boxing and out muscling him, of course) and someone like Ali could certainly outbox him.

I like your list though, but Lewis is also on mine.

[McGrain]

The third thread today i have to post this :(

:lol:

You're fighting a losing battle there bro!

And to be fair, in the highest company Lewis does have a weaker chin than most of the fighters he's listed alongside.

[JohnThomas1]

I can't respect any list not containing Super Greg

[Sweet Science]

[/color][/size][/font]

Though i'm aware I may be underating him, I beleive Foreman's style means he could be ********* OR outpunched by a great fighter. I think against the greatest punchers (guys like Tyson, Louis, Dempsey and Liston) Foreman would be tryng to win fights whilst hurt against an unhurt opponent, and early. Against a great pucher, that guy will tend to lose, despite George's power/chin/heart trinity. Not that Foreman has "no chance" against ANY of these guys, just I won't be picking him.



Again, I'd have him lower becase of his limitations. I would pick Liston, for example, to outpunch him (in combination with out boxing and out muscling him, of course) and someone like Ali could certainly outbox him.

I like your list though, but Lewis is also on mine.


I take your points on board McGrain, what would your top ten look like?

[McGrain]

I take your points on board McGrain, what would your top ten look like?

Something like this:

1 - Ali
2 - Louis
3 - Liston
4 - Johnson
5 - Lewis
6 - Jeffries
7 - Frazier
8 - Hollyfield
9 - Tyson
10- Holmes

[Sweet Science]

Sure, he is no Ali in that department but his chin isn´t glass or anything. It´s a bit above average.

The fighters chin needs to be substantially stronger than "a bit above average" to make this list my friend. The chin of Lewis would be seriously tested by most people on this list.

[Sonny's jab]

Jack Johnson gets rated too high head-to-head here.
The best footage of him shows him toying with short and somewhat crude 170 pounders. His chin is surely at least as suspect as Lennox Lewis's.

[McGrain]

Jack Johnson gets rated too high head-to-head here.
The best footage of him shows him toying with short and somewhat crude 170 pounders. His chin is surely at least as suspect as Lennox Lewis's.


I think that Johnson's chin is about as steady as Lewis', yeah, though I don't like the word "suspect".

Johnson is high on my list for the following reasons.

You can't spar for him. He is to smart for you to get a proper feel so he needs to be solved "in the ring".

Though I see Ali dismantling him I pick him to beat Louis. Louis is my #2, that's a big scalp.

Johnson beat one of the first really big men in Jeffries. It's possible Jim, well past it didn't win a round, but i'm happy to pick Johnson over peak Jeffries, too.

Johnson lost to the next genuine giant, Willard, but dominated him for about 15 rounds and would have got him were he few years younger/less rusty.

He is terribley awkward.

Intangibles favour him - along with Ali he is a "find a way" type of fighter. Bullets might have bounced of him at peak.

He was brave, feared no-one.

[Holmes' Jab]

Here's mine (my ATG rankings in brackets) ...

1. Larry Holmes [3]
2. Muhammad Ali [2]
3. Sonny Liston [9]
4. Lennox Lewis [5]
5. Joe Louis [1]
6. Mike Tyson [7]
7. Joe Frazier [6]
8. Evander Holyfield [8]
9. George Foreman [12]
10. Jack Johnson [11]

[Sweet Science]

Here's mine (my ATG rankings in brackets) ...

1. Larry Holmes [3]
2. Muhammad Ali [2]
3. Sonny Liston [9]
4. Lennox Lewis [5]
5. Joe Louis [1]
6. Mike Tyson [7]
7. Joe Frazier [6]
8. Evander Holyfield [8]
9. George Foreman [12]
10. Jack Johnson [11]

I think you have a great list there. The only one I would strongly disagree with would be Lewis's High placing (I have him at 11). But it's an excellent list.

[Sweet Science]

Something like this:

1 - Ali
2 - Louis
3 - Liston
4 - Johnson
5 - Lewis
6 - Jeffries
7 - Frazier
8 - Hollyfield
9 - Tyson
10- Holmes

Again, an excellent list. I just disagree with Lewis's placing. Although I understand I'm in the minority with this view.

[McGrain]

Again, an excellent list. I just disagree with Lewis's placing. Although I understand I'm in the minority with this view.

So you think most of these guys would beat Lewis?

[Sweet Science]

So you think most of these guys would beat Lewis?

Yes I really do think Lewis would struggle to beat these guys. Mainly because of the chin factor. Maybe I'm being too harsh. When I hear the name Lennox Lewis being mentioned with other greats, I just can't get the moments of truth against Rahman and McCall out of my head.

Although, I respect Lewis because of the heart & determination he showed in the rematches especially when he knocked Rahman out. That was very impressive.

[Sonny's jab]

I think that Johnson's chin is about as steady as Lewis', yeah, though I don't like the word "suspect".

Sorry, I dont actually believe Lewis's chin can be called suspect. We have all of Lewis's fights, we have sufficient material and facts, we know enough to gauge the quality of his chin. Of course, opinions founded on those facts do differ.

As for Johnson, I do suspect his chin may not stand up as well as Lewis's. I dont have enough evidence to say one way or another. Did any huge hitters nail him flush ? If so, what happened ?



Johnson is high on my list for the following reasons.

You can't spar for him. He is to smart for you to get a proper feel so he needs to be solved "in the ring".


That could be said about many fighters. He's unique, along with many others.

Though I see Ali dismantling him I pick him to beat Louis. Louis is my #2, that's a big scalp.

Fair enough.


Johnson beat one of the first really big men in Jeffries. It's possible Jim, well past it didn't win a round, but i'm happy to pick Johnson over peak Jeffries, too.


Beating one of the first really big men is reason to rate him highly over later fighters who I assume you acknowledge beat several "really big men" ??
Of course, beating an over-the-hill five years inactive 6'2, 227 pounder is only remarkable because he beat so many smaller men.


Johnson lost to the next genuine giant, Willard, but dominated him for about 15 rounds and would have got him were he few years younger/less rusty.


Haven't seen those 15 rounds, but I doubt there were many punches thrown.
Sure, a prime Johnson could have beat Jess Willard, but that's not enough to get rated as anything special head-to-head. How many heavyweights prime-for-prime would you pick to beat Willard ?


He is terribley awkward.


Maybe so.
But so are Arturo Godoy, Jimmy Young and Chris Byrd.


Intangibles favour him - along with Ali he is a "find a way" type of fighter. Bullets might have bounced of him at peak.


Against who did Johnson "find a way" to win that so impresses you ?
BTW, bullets would not have bounced off him. Or Ali for that matter.


He was brave, feared no-one.


That's a massive understatement.

[Amsterdam]

Head to Head to me doesn't mean who would beat everyone, because everyone has someone who can defeat them even at their best, my head to head list goes towards who I believe would beat the most memorable fighters and ATG's at the weight. Note that I take era/era into consideration here without my inherrant, but very factual bias against the older era fighters and I left my actual ATG rankings in brackets as well:

1. Mike Tyson{10}
2. Sonny Liston{9}
3. Joe Louis{1}
4. Muhammad Ali{2}
5. Larry Holmes{3}
6. Evander Holyfield{7}
7. George Foreman{5}
8. Riddick Bowe{19}
9. Joe Frazier{6}
10. Lennox Lewis{12}

Now, I am sure some posters have questions about some of my choices and I will gladly discuss them under a civil format.:D

[fists of fury]

1. Mike Tyson{10}
2. Sonny Liston{9}
3. Joe Louis{1}
4. Muhammad Ali{2}
5. Larry Holmes{3}
6. Evander Holyfield{7}
7. George Foreman{5}
8. Riddick Bowe{19}
9. Joe Frazier{6}
10. Lennox Lewis{12}

Now, I am sure some posters have questions about some of my choices and I will gladly discuss them under a civil format.:D

I like Tyson too, but No. 1? Maybe he was the best 6 round heavyweight in history H2H, but over the last 6 he wasn't anything special.

PS-No love for the Brockton Blockbuster? (Not aimed at you in particular, Amsterdam)

[Holmes' Jab]

Head to Head to me doesn't mean who would beat everyone, because everyone has someone who can defeat them even at their best, my head to head list goes towards who I believe would beat the most memorable fighters and ATG's at the weight. Note that I take era/era into consideration here without my inherrant, but very factual bias against the older era fighters and I left my actual ATG rankings in brackets as well:

1. Mike Tyson{10}
2. Sonny Liston{9}
3. Joe Louis{1}
4. Muhammad Ali{2}
5. Larry Holmes{3}
6. Evander Holyfield{7}
7. George Foreman{5}
8. Riddick Bowe{19}
9. Joe Frazier{6}
10. Lennox Lewis{12}

Now, I am sure some posters have questions about some of my choices and I will gladly discuss them under a civil format.:D

I have roughly the same fighters in my top 10, though in somewhat different order. Tyson #1- above Ali, Liston, Holmes etc from a head-to-head viewpoint? :huh

I'd also have Lewis and Frazier higher, and Bowe wouldn't be on the list. A good list despite that. :good

[Sonny's jab]

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Sonny Liston
5 Larry Holmes
6 George Foreman
7 Joe Frazier
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Lennox Lewis

[Amsterdam]

I have roughly the same fighters in my top 10, though in somewhat different order. Tyson #1- above Ali, Liston, Holmes etc from a head-to-head viewpoint? :huh

I'd also have Lewis and Frazier higher, and Bowe wouldn't be on the list. A good list despite that. :good

I'm not really a Tyson fan per say, I always have had an interest in him(who doesn't), but I am absolutley convinced that he'll take 95% of HW's at his best, even guys like Foreman with styles advantages.

He already scalped Holmes, I feel he'd have gotten Holmes in his prime also. I also feel he easily takes Lewis, Frazier, Foreman, Louis etc. due to his significant advantages and intangibles and I don't buy into the current underrating of him due to his later career mess in and out of the ring.

I hold Holmes highly, I'd in fact pick him to outpoint a peak Ali. In fact, I pick Tyson, Holmes, Louis over Ali, but Ali defeats more than Holmes would in the same token, guys like Holyfield, and he already has his victories over Frazier and Foreman and I feel he'd take Bowe with ease also(I rate a peak Bowe as a H2H force, but I don't rank him otherwise very well).

Frazier would have major issue's with Vitali Klitschko level guys even, but he smashes a guy like Lennox and would be 50/50 with Holmes.

Holyfield defeats a good amount also.

These are just examples, I'm not even going into elite level contenders in history that aren't even ATG's...

[Doppleganger]

The fighters chin needs to be substantially stronger than "a bit above average" to make this list my friend. The chin of Lewis would be seriously tested by most people on this list.
Most people? Of your list perhaps 4 IMO but I would also argue that many on your list would not take the overhand right and right uppercut of Lewis and those that can Lewis has the tools to keep them on the outside and at long range. IMO the biggest threats to Lewis would would Holmes, 60's Ali and Foreman. I would put money on Lewis to beat the rest on your list.

You speak of moments of truth against McCall and Rahman but were they really? The only shortcomings Lewis demonstrated in those 2 fights was his lack of focus. Sure he got knocked down twice but the rematches demonstrated the true levels of each fighter. Lewis utterly disproved the maxim that KO a fighter once and you'll do it quicker in the rematch. Lewis being tagged numerous times by known punchers also IMO dispells the notion that his chin is unreliable. It isn't.

Anyway, my H2H list FWIW:

1. Ali (60's version)
2. Lewis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Louis
6. Liston
7. Tyson
8. Holyfield
9. Jeffries
10. Frazier

[Amsterdam]

I like Tyson too, but No. 1? Maybe he was the best 6 round heavyweight in history H2H, but over the last 6 he wasn't anything special.

PS-No love for the Brockton Blockbuster? (Not aimed at you in particular, Amsterdam)

Yes, Tyson at no. 1 for me. Marciano doesn't beat any of those guys in my top 10 peak/peak, thus I can't put him in my top 10.:|

I have nothing against Marciano, he's in my official ATG list at #8, 1 spot above Liston and two spots above Tyson at #10, just to show that I do rate Marciano for what he accomplished.

[Amsterdam]

Most people? Of your list perhaps 4 IMO but I would also argue that many on your list would not take the overhand right and right uppercut of Lewis and those that can Lewis has the tools to keep them on the outside and at long range. IMO the biggest threats to Lewis would would Holmes, 60's Ali and Foreman. I would put money on Lewis to beat the rest on your list.

You speak of moments of truth against McCall and Rahman but were they really? The only shortcomings Lewis demonstrated in those 2 fights was his lack of focus. Sure he got knocked down twice but the rematches demonstrated the true levels of each fighter. Lewis utterly disproved the maxim that KO a fighter once and you'll do it quicker in the rematch. Lewis being tagged numerous times by known punchers also IMO dispells the notion that his chin is unreliable. It isn't.

Anyway, my H2H list FWIW:

1. Ali (60's version)
2. Lewis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Louis
6. Liston
7. Tyson
8. Holyfield
9. Jeffries
10. Frazier

A lack of focus has to do with conditioning, motivation, will... but not to do with punch resistance and Rahman and McCall are mediocre punchers compared to these top 10 guys, even a fully motivated Lewis is getting his chin cracked against these top 10 monsters.

I even pick a peak Bowe over him, much less a Liston or Tyson.

[McGrain]

As for Johnson, I do suspect his chin may not stand up as well as Lewis's. I dont have enough evidence to say one way or another. Did any huge hitters nail him flush ? If so, what happened ?

McVey and Langford both cracked him, and he was OK. It's a guess as to whether or not they nailed him flush with there being no footage and all, but it seems unlikley he'd have got through the multiple rounds he did with these two without getting checked a couple of times.

You have to go all the way back to Choynski, I think, to find someone who ditched him, and Jack was little more than a kid in fighting terms.

But it is probably true that Johnson is hard to knock out because of his skill set rather than his big punch resistance. Personally, i've never found anything objectionable about that.


Beating one of the first really big men is reason to rate him highly over later fighters who I assume you acknowledge beat several "really big men" ??
Of course, beating an over-the-hill five years inactive 6'2, 227 pounder is only remarkable because he beat so many smaller men.


Haven't seen those 15 rounds, but I doubt there were many punches thrown.
Sure, a prime Johnson could have beat Jess Willard, but that's not enough to get rated as anything special head-to-head. How many heavyweights prime-for-prime would you pick to beat Willard ?

I raised these two issues just to point out that he has acheived against bigger guys. It seems a lot of guys want to dismiss him because a lot of his wins came against smaller guys. In guys like McVey, Ross, Kauffman, and actually a few of the guys he beat after he lost the title, Johnson has plenty of physically big scalps.



Maybe so.
But so are Arturo Godoy, Jimmy Young and Chris Byrd.

Combine that awkwardness with Johnson's power, defencive skillset, top two (for the division) ring generalship and self-confidence it makes for a different kettle of fish than any of those three.



Against who did Johnson "find a way" to win that so impresses you ?


The point is more concerned with Jack's adaptability. He seems to have beaten men in spite of their style/size throughout his career. In fact, aside from a robbery and a DQ, i think i'm right in saying that Johnson went 13 years unbeaten between 1901 and the Willard fight in an era.

At least one of those years (07 I think)was dominated by a series with Jeannette puncuated by a fight with Langford and included other fights - the type of year no man should come through unbeaten.

[McGrain]

Now, I am sure some posters have questions about some of my choices and I will gladly discuss them under a civil format.:D


That actually seems pretty reasonable to me.

You overate Tyson of course, but lots of guys do.:cool:

And we all know your propensity for favouring guys with zero wins over peak ATG's. :hey

[JohnThomas1]

You speak of moments of truth against McCall and Rahman but were they really? The only shortcomings Lewis demonstrated in those 2 fights was his lack of focus.

I'll slightly disagree here on one of the fights. The Lewis problems with McCall were technical at a slightly green stage of his career, a flaw if you like. The ever astute Emmanuel Steward had picked up on this flaw and exploited it for all to see. Not that long after Steward ended up training Lewis, quickly shoring up this right hand defensive weakness and putting him on the path to his absolute best.

[McGrain]

I'll slightly disagree here on one of the fights. The Lewis problems with McCall were technical at a slightly green stage of his career, a flaw if you like. The ever astute Emmanuel Steward had picked up on this flaw and exploited it for all to see. Not that long after Steward ended up training Lewis, quickly shoring up this right hand defensive weakness and putting him on the path to his absolute best.

I agree with your analysis of the McCall/Steward thing but what about Rahman?

Here we see Lewis career into the ropes, hands low stepping to his right at a tightish angle to his opponent with his chin in the air.

Talk about poor fundamentals. You don't have to be Foreman to knock a guy spark in that situation.

He was smiling too. I love Lewis and loved him then, but I was glad Rahman sparked him when I saw the replay.

[Amsterdam]

That actually seems pretty reasonable to me.

You overate Tyson of course, but lots of guys do.:cool:

And we all know your propensity for favouring guys with zero wins over peak ATG's. :hey

Well, this is head to head and I am phenominal at picking fights. I analyse not from reputation, but from actual deep stylistic and physical analysation you see.

A peak Tyson has no wins over a peak ATG of course, but he'd get plenty from my point of view in fantasy match ups, his later career really does his peak an injustice.

I don't overrate him, I do feel that putting him out of the top 5 in any H2H is utterly absurd however, especially when some have Lewis in there!:yep

Tyson is at least going to get more wins than Lewis, even if you underrate Tyson.

[Amsterdam]

I have to add something however. Lewis is only in my top 10 as the last guy because I feel he defeats Ali stylistically. The rest of those guys KTFO Lewis prime/prime, no problem, Holmes probably the latest.

[Sweet Science]

I have to add something however. Lewis is only in my top 10 as the last guy because I feel he defeats Ali stylistically. The rest of those guys KTFO Lewis prime/prime, no problem, Holmes probably the latest.

You are correct Lewis would get knocked out by all those guys. However, you are incorrect in your assertion that sylistically Ali would be defeated by Lewis. Ali would most likely win a UD against Lewis, his advantage in speed would be the telling factor. Ali would have some fun playing with Lewis and with a chin like Ali's he would have nothing to fear.

[Sonny's jab]

I agree with your analysis of the McCall/Steward thing but what about Rahman?

Here we see Lewis career into the ropes, hands low stepping to his right at a tightish angle to his opponent with his chin in the air.

Talk about poor fundamentals. You don't have to be Foreman to knock a guy spark in that situation.

He was smiling too. I love Lewis and loved him then, but I was glad Rahman sparked him when I saw the replay.

Yeah, Lewis looked like a rank amateur against Rahman too.

Emanuel Steward deserves to take a huge chunk of blame for that.

[Amsterdam]

You are correct Lewis would get knocked out by all those guys. However, you are incorrect in your assertion that Ali would be defeated by Lewis. Ali would most likely win a UD against Lewis, his advantage in speed would be the telling factor.

I just can't get the image of Folley landing those timed right hands out of my head. Ali's vulnerable to Lewis' offense in my opinion, it's a styles thing.

Ali has better speed, but Lewis was quick with superior fundamentals, I don't feel he has the power to make the difference in Lewis' chin either.

[McGrain]

Well, this is head to head and I am phenominal at picking fights. I analyse not from reputation, but from actual deep stylistic and physical analysation you see.

Time for bed my friend...

A peak Tyson has no wins over a peak ATG of course, but he'd get plenty from my point of view in fantasy match ups, his later career really does his peak an injustice.

I agree.

I don't overrate him, I do feel that putting him out of the top 5 in any H2H is utterly absurd however, especially when some have Lewis in there!:yep

He can be outboxed by the greatest boxers (Ali, possiby Johnson) out punched by the greatest punchers (Liston, possibly Lewis) and out gamed by the gamest of fighters (Hollyfield, possibly Jeffries). ANY fighter than does only one thing very very very very well is in danger against other fighters of the same class.

Tyson is at least going to get more wins than Lewis, even if you underrate Tyson.

Given that Lewis has more ways to beat top men than Tyson, I don't agree.

You see, Tyson was best at blowing guys up, dominating them and getting them out of there.

When you're talking about the top .1% of fighters from any given weight class that is just not going to happen very much. Bottom line.

[Sweet Science]

[quote=Amsterdam]I just can't get the image of Folley landing those timed right hands out of my head. Ali's vulnerable to Lewis' offense in my opinion, it's a styles thing. quote]

:rofl I have to admit you're very a funny guy.

[Sweet Science]

Ali has better speed, but Lewis was quick with superior fundamentals, I don't feel he has the power to make the difference in Lewis' chin either.

He wouldn't need the power to affect Lewis's chin he would cruise his way to a UD.

[McGrain]

I just can't get the image of Folley landing those timed right hands out of my head. Ali's vulnerable to Lewis' offense in my opinion, it's a styles thing.

Ali has better speed, but Lewis was quick with superior fundamentals, I don't feel he has the power to make the difference in Lewis' chin either.


I agree.

Lewis has a very serious chance v Ali, though I would favour Muhammad.

[Amsterdam]

I agree.

Lewis has a very serious chance v Ali, though I would favour Muhammad.

I can accept that of course, it IS Ali. But I do always laugh when Ali is mentioned as a 'defensive fighter'...

He was tagged quite a bit even at his best.

[Holmes' Jab]

From a stylistic viewpoint Lewis has the tools to give Ali a hell-ish fight (ala Norton). He has a live chance in this matchup.

That said I think Pre-Vietnam Ali wins by UD (perhaps by a margin of four-five points). 70's Ali- I'd still favour, though this time it may well be wafer thin split decision, amid some controversy. :good

I think the final stretch of Championship rounds would be the difference, Ali would come on strong here.

[Doppleganger]

A lack of focus has to do with conditioning, motivation, will... but not to do with punch resistance and Rahman and McCall are mediocre punchers compared to these top 10 guys, even a fully motivated Lewis is getting his chin cracked against these top 10 monsters. If that's the case, why didn't Bruno, Tyson, Tua et all crack his chin as they all hit him with full blooded shots. Or maybe it's because Bruno, Tyson, Tua et all just can't punch hard enough right? :p

Another thing, are you saying that the likes of Ali, Johnson and even Holyfield are harder punchers than McCall and Rahman? You're going to have a difficult job in convincing me of that.

[Doppleganger]

I'll slightly disagree here on one of the fights. The Lewis problems with McCall were technical at a slightly green stage of his career, a flaw if you like. The ever astute Emmanuel Steward had picked up on this flaw and exploited it for all to see. Not that long after Steward ended up training Lewis, quickly shoring up this right hand defensive weakness and putting him on the path to his absolute best.
I'll give you that JT but IMO had Lewis turned up focused on McCall in the first fight he wouldn't have been caught with that counter right. I won't even go into the fact that as Heavyweight Champion of the World Lewis should have been given a chance to continue, just like Holmes had not once, but twice before. Just like Bowe was against Holyfield in their 3rd fight.

[ChrisPontius]

I'd have something like:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Lewis
4. Holmes
5. Tyson
6. Marciano
7. Foreman
8. Frazier
9. Holyfield
10. Dempsey

[Holmes' Jab]

Given that his legacy is based entirely on the Holyfield trilogy and the odd impressive win here and there outside of that, I'm baffled as to how Bowe makes it in peoples Top 10 Head-to-head HW's. :huh

If that's the case you may as well stick Douglas or McCall in there, I agree that Bowe wasted away his 'potential' but that's not the point here.

Almost any fighter who packed great punching power in their right hand would be Bowe's biggest nightmare (Tyson, Lewis, Foreman and Liston etc)

[ripcity]

1. Lennox Lewis: Best combo of size and skils. People question his chin because of loses to Oliver McCall (who came into the fight with5 stright ko wins) and Hasim Rahman (Who had ko'd his past 2 oponents). Lewis at his best is my pick to beat anyother heveyweight at his best

2. Mike Tyson: He ws elusive on defence and he hit with power. His abillity to slip punches and his agression makes Tyson a potentional winner in any head to head match up. (excipition to the bigger is beter rule)

3. Muhammad Ali (pre exile): At 6'3" he is not that small. Posibily the fastest heaveyweight of all time. A master in the art of hiting and not geting hit, but could get over cofdent which would cost him head to head.

4. Wladimir Klitschko: Like Lewis there are questions about his chin. His ko loses are to Corrie Sanders (who had won his last two fights by ko) and Lamon Brewster (who came in to the fight with five stright ko wins). Curently trained by Emanual Steward who ws Lewis's trainer at his peek. I can see Wladimir Klitschko at the top of my list in a few years.

5. Riddick Bowe: Overshowed by Lewis and his own personal problems. He had size and skils.

6. Vitali Klitschko: Older brother of Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali could hit 34 ko's in 35 wins but he could also be hit The Lewis fight is a prime example of this.

7. Larry Holmes: Like Ali Holmes is 6'3". His jab is one of the best in the history of boxing.

8. Nikolay Valuev: ( You can stop laughing now). His bigest advantage is his size 7'0". Combined with decent skils he would be truble for any heaveyweight head to head.

9. Joe Louis: at 6'2" he was not a small man but he fought around 200 lbs at his peek sometimes less. He has exlent power and fundementles which puts him on the list.

10. Muhammad Ali (post exile) : I'm sure I could have put some one who was not already on my list hear. Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier are all worthy of this list. I went with this version of Ali because he used experance and gile to defet his opoents.

To be honest I don't put that much stock in head to head match ups or actule fights in making top 10 lists. Styles make fights and sometimes espicily at heaveyweight one boxer would have such a psycial advantage that there is no way despite the other boxer having a better resumie that I can not pick the biger man to win.

[cross_trainer]

1. Lennox Lewis: Best combo of size and skils. People question his chin because of loses to Oliver McCall (who came into the fight with5 stright ko wins) and Hasim Rahman (Who had ko'd his past 2 oponents). Lewis at his best is my pick to beat anyother heveyweight at his best

2. Mike Tyson: He ws elusive on defence and he hit with power. His abillity to slip punches and his agression makes Tyson a potentional winner in any head to head match up. (excipition to the bigger is beter rule)

3. Muhammad Ali (pre exile): At 6'3" he is not that small. Posibily the fastest heaveyweight of all time. A master in the art of hiting and not geting hit, but could get over cofdent which would cost him head to head.

4. Wladimir Klitschko: Like Lewis there are questions about his chin. His ko loses are to Corrie Sanders (who had won his last two fights by ko) and Lamon Brewster (who came in to the fight with five stright ko wins). Curently trained by Emanual Steward who ws Lewis's trainer at his peek. I can see Wladimir Klitschko at the top of my list in a few years.

5. Riddick Bowe: Overshowed by Lewis and his own personal problems. He had size and skils.

6. Vitali Klitschko: Older brother of Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali could hit 34 ko's in 35 wins but he could also be hit The Lewis fight is a prime example of this.

7. Larry Holmes: Like Ali Holmes is 6'3". His jab is one of the best in the history of boxing.

8. Nikolay Valuev: ( You can stop laughing now). His bigest advantage is his size 7'0". Combined with decent skils he would be truble for any heaveyweight head to head.

9. Joe Louis: at 6'2" he was not a small man but he fought around 200 lbs at his peek sometimes less. He has exlent power and fundementles which puts him on the list.

10. Muhammad Ali (post exile) : I'm sure I could have put some one who was not already on my list hear. Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier are all worthy of this list. I went with this version of Ali because he used experance and gile to defet his opoents.

To be honest I don't put that much stock in head to head match ups or actule fights in making top 10 lists. Styles make fights and sometimes espicily at heaveyweight one boxer would have such a psycial advantage that there is no way despite the other boxer having a better resumie that I can not pick the biger man to win.

This will cause controversy galore. I salute you!

[hopkinsfan07]

1 - Ali
2 - Liston
3 - Louis
4 - Foreman
5 - Tyson
6 - Marciano
7 - Lewis
8 - Frazier
9 - Holmes
10 - Holyfield
10 - Vitali Klitschko

[cross_trainer]

Against the modern crop of fighters, the best would be:

1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Liston
6. Holyfield
7. Louis
8. Foreman
9. Patterson
10. Frazier

[hopkinsfan07]

8. Nikolay Valuev: ( You can stop laughing now). His bigest advantage is his size 7'0". Combined with decent skils he would be truble for any heaveyweight head to head.

brave pick

[Dempsey1238]

You guys are Highly underated the Rock imo.

[Lacyace]

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Lewis
4. Liston
5. J. Johnson
6. Foreman
7. J. Louis
8. Bowe
9. Frazier
10. Tyson

[ironchamp]

Against the modern crop of fighters, the best would be:

1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Liston
6. Holyfield
7. Louis
8. Foreman
9. Patterson
10. Frazier

Patterson is an interesting pick.....

My list:

1. Tyson
2. Ali (pre-exile)
3. Lewis
4. Holmes
5. Louis
6. Liston
7. Bowe
8. Foreman
9. Holyfield
10. Frazier

Honarble Mention: Wlad Klitschko, Rocky Marciano

[Muchmoore]

1. Tyson
2. Ali
3. Foreman
4. Liston
5. Lewis
6. Louis
7. Marciano
8. Holmes
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

[Shareef]

1. Ali - His awesome speed of foot and hand, granite chin, heart, toughness, stamina, and often overlooked he had a good punch. He wasn't a one punch type of guy but he was a good puncher when he wanted to be. He was schooling his opposition in his prime barely getting touched due to his wicked movement and reflexes. Then when you add in his resume he is the most proven heavyweight of all time no other heavies have wins as impressive as Liston 2x, Frazier 2x, Foreman, add in solid wins over Norton (he did win the 2nd i don't care what anybody says), Shavers, Patterson, Terell, Quarry etc. He was out of his prime too when he fought his fights against Frazier, Foreman and the bunch in the 70's.

2. Mike Tyson - He was the most explosive heavyweight of all time. His combination of punching power and speed is #1 among heavyweights. He had great head movement in his prime was hard to tag cleanly. Bonecrusher Smith said what he found the most interesting about Tyson was that he was so hard to hit cleanly. He threw devastating combinations in his prime and had a good jab albeit his short reach. He had a granite chin which is on display agianst Razor Rudduck, he took a massive 10rd beating agianst Douglas before falling, 11rounds against Holy (stopped on his feet), and 8 rounds of flush shots from Lewis. Tyson had to be beaten to a pulp before he would go. His heart and determination are underrated pre prison Tyson wasn't the front runner people remember from later years. His resume is good too destroyed undefeated Michael Spinks in 91 seconds who had previously beaten Holmes, and Cooney at heavy. Only man to knockout Holmes who 5yrs after the fight went the distance with holy and beat mercer. Ruined Tyrell Biggs career, first to beat Tony Tucker, 2 wins over huge punching Ruddock, 2 kos over Bruno who went on to win a alphabet title yrs after Tyson stopped him in 89.

3. Larry Holmes - The best jab in heavyweight history in my opinion. He could use his piston jab all night pumping it out non stop. His right hand was a good and had a wicked 1 2. Like Ali underated as a puncher. His toughness and heart were second to none displayed in his war with Norton and fight against Ernie Shavers. Defeated unbeaten moster punching Gerry Coony as well as good boxer puncher Tim Witherspoon. Often underrated and overlooked due to his personality.

4. George Foreman - The strongest and punch for punch hardest hitting heavyweight. His pure physicality was so awesome i rank him this high. He had a great chin and win too win. His destruction of Joe Frazier is legendary. Won the title first in 1974 and won it again 20 yrs later against Michael Moorer. Although he could be outboxed at the same time any opponent going against him is in risk of being pummelled into the ground. (He wasn't mentally right for the Young fight by the way)

5. Lennox Lewis- Very good jab along with perhaps the divisions hardest right hand. Great uppercut as well to catch opponents on there way in. Has a very good resume with wins over ruddock, morrison, tua, holyfield (past prime), tyson (shot version), Vitali Klitchko, Michael Grant (exposed the hype), Bruno, Mercer, Rahman, McCall. Often dissed about his chin as being glass which i do not agree with. Lewis wasn't the most durable guy but he didn't have a glass chin but not a great chin either i would say his chin was average he took some good shots
from Bruno and Mercer and could take his share of punishment.

I'll add the rest later.

[janitor]

Making adjustments for the rule set each fought under-

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Muhamad Ali
4. Jim Jeffries
5. Jack Johnson
6. Sonny Liston
7. Sam Langford
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Joe Frazier

[Nick Balsamo]

Solid list, but Foreman doesn't belong there.

He could always, throughout both his careers, be outboxed. Even someone with a pretty basic set of skills in Schulz could nearly beat him. And some think he did.

You can't slug it out with Foreman... But really... You might as well put Earnie Shavers there instead of Foreman. Besides the chin George had in his second career, there's not much seperating the two.

Bowe does belong there.

I'd replace Holyfield with Lennox Lewis, personally. Serious power, size, skill, a solid chin, great reach...

Can't really fault anyone else on that list, though.

You gotta be kidding dude. Foreman easily belongs there. In fact, I believe that night in Zaire, he would've crush any HW who ever lived. Ali was the most resistant HW ever, that's why he was able to stand and beat Foreman.

Then you compare Foreman with Earnie Shavers ? That's ridiculous. Foreman was a better boxer, better finisher, was stronger, rangier, bigger and was better to cut the ring off. He had a wider array of punches. True, Foreman was slow, easy to hit and sometimes predictable but to put Shavers in the same category is sick... :scaredas:

[Nick Balsamo]

1. Lennox Lewis: Best combo of size and skils. People question his chin because of loses to Oliver McCall (who came into the fight with5 stright ko wins) and Hasim Rahman (Who had ko'd his past 2 oponents). Lewis at his best is my pick to beat anyother heveyweight at his best

2. Mike Tyson: He ws elusive on defence and he hit with power. His abillity to slip punches and his agression makes Tyson a potentional winner in any head to head match up. (excipition to the bigger is beter rule)

3. Muhammad Ali (pre exile): At 6'3" he is not that small. Posibily the fastest heaveyweight of all time. A master in the art of hiting and not geting hit, but could get over cofdent which would cost him head to head.

4. Wladimir Klitschko: Like Lewis there are questions about his chin. His ko loses are to Corrie Sanders (who had won his last two fights by ko) and Lamon Brewster (who came in to the fight with five stright ko wins). Curently trained by Emanual Steward who ws Lewis's trainer at his peek. I can see Wladimir Klitschko at the top of my list in a few years.

5. Riddick Bowe: Overshowed by Lewis and his own personal problems. He had size and skils.

6. Vitali Klitschko: Older brother of Wladimir Klitschko. Vitali could hit 34 ko's in 35 wins but he could also be hit The Lewis fight is a prime example of this.

7. Larry Holmes: Like Ali Holmes is 6'3". His jab is one of the best in the history of boxing.

8. Nikolay Valuev: ( You can stop laughing now). His bigest advantage is his size 7'0". Combined with decent skils he would be truble for any heaveyweight head to head.

9. Joe Louis: at 6'2" he was not a small man but he fought around 200 lbs at his peek sometimes less. He has exlent power and fundementles which puts him on the list.

10. Muhammad Ali (post exile) : I'm sure I could have put some one who was not already on my list hear. Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier are all worthy of this list. I went with this version of Ali because he used experance and gile to defet his opoents.

To be honest I don't put that much stock in head to head match ups or actule fights in making top 10 lists. Styles make fights and sometimes espicily at heaveyweight one boxer would have such a psycial advantage that there is no way despite the other boxer having a better resumie that I can not pick the biger man to win.

I'm speechless :lol:

[brooklyn1550]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Liston
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Frazier
9. Holyfield
10. Marciano

HM
Johnson
Dempsey
W. Klitschko
Bowe

[Nick Balsamo]

1. Muhammad Ali

Incredible hand & foot speed, quick jab, flair, reflexes, anticipation, movement, toughness and stamina. Impossible to knock out. Lacked the fundamentals but his natural atheticism was one of a kind.

2. Sonny Liston

The best power-boxer ever. Could jab you to death or simply put you away with hooks and uppercuts from long range. Able to fight inside and outside, he can manhandle anybody, including Foreman. Heart is questionnable at times but the guy was a bad SOB (Look at the Williams rematch).

3. Larry Holmes

The less-flawed HW ever. He was good in all departments and he was as good offensively as defensively. Had the best HW jab ever. Underrated heart and great recuperating powers.

4. George Foreman

The most brutal KO artist ever. Was extremely strong, had excellent finishing skills and was able to cut the ring and push his opponent where he wants to knock him out. Crunching hooks, booming uppercuts, was slow but was able to connect with his stuff. Had issues with stamina and good movers.

5. Lennox Lewis

The best blend of size\skills\power. Found his range with the jab before unloading heavy right hands. Excellent ring general who can fight very cautiously at times but tooks some risks at the right time. Laziness cost him twice.

6. Joe Louis

The best puncher ever. Sharp, fast, powerful, accuracy and deadly combinations. Footwork, size\strenght and chin prevent him to be at the top of the list.

7. Mike Tyson

The best mix of speed\power ever. Was lightning fast, explosive and mean. Maybe the most feared fighter ever. Excellent head movement and good chin, couldn't be KO'ed with one punch. Lack of grit and inside skills are huge downfalls for him.

8. Jack Dempsey

The original Tyson. Fast, vicious, relentless, was able to box and slug. Was a sharp shooter from inside as he would fight like a cat, with unequalled sprawling and lunging movement. It's highly doubtful he could beat bigger men like Lewis or Liston.

9. Jack Johnson

The best defensive HW ever. A master strategist, an adept feinter with speed, ring generalship and legendary uppercut. His chin was made of glass though.

10. Rocky Marciano

A crude but unpredictable mauler who punched hard from all angles. He had freakish power for his size, endless stamina and will to win. Could be outboxed or outslugged but his record speaks for himself. No one ever beat that guy.

[prime]

1. The Greatest
2. The Galveston Giant
3. Kid Dynamite
4. The Manassa Mauler
5. The Brown Bomber
6. Big George
7. Smokin’ Joe
8. The Easton Assassin
9. The Boilermaker
10. The Bear

[Bill1234]

Personally I think Foreman definitely belongs high on this list (as it focuses on head 2 head), yes he wasn't the slickest of boxers, well he was pretty crude really but with his unmatched raw power he'd knock most people out regardless of their superior skills.


Shavers beat him in the raw power department, and Foreman didn't have 1 punch KO power. A slick boxer with a decent chin would be able to take his 1 shot. Which is why I would move him down below Holmes. I would move Tyson and Liston below Holmes too.

[Sweet Science]

Shavers beat him in the raw power department, and Foreman didn't have 1 punch KO power. A slick boxer with a decent chin would be able to take his 1 shot. Which is why I would move him down below Holmes. I would move Tyson and Liston below Holmes too.

Foreman definitley had 1 punch power and I also believe he hit harder than even Shavers. In fact, I rate Foreman as the hardest puncher ever to grace the heavyweight division.

[Irish Steel]

1.Ali
2.[I]prime[I]Jack Dempsey
3.Larry Holmes
4.Wlad Klitschko (if he can unify)
5. Joe Louis
5. Mike Tyson
6.Frazier
7.Jeffries
8.Johnson
9.Liston
10.Marciano

[Irish Steel]

Foreman definitley had 1 punch power and I also believe he hit harder than even Shavers. In fact, I rate Foreman as the hardest puncher ever to grace the heavyweight division.
I beg to differ. HOlmes said that the hardest he was ever hit by, was from gerrey conney. Whch is impressive because he also faced shavers.

[Sweet Science]

I beg to differ. HOlmes said that the hardest he was ever hit by, was from gerrey conney. Whch is impressive because he also faced shavers.

How does that suggest Foreman wasn't the hardest hitter ever?

[My dinner with Conteh]

I beg to differ. HOlmes said that the hardest he was ever hit by, was from gerrey conney. Whch is impressive because he also faced shavers.



Jesus, yet another bloke that believes the old "the guy that didn't rock me hit harder than the one that nearly knocked me out" crap. :huh

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yes I really do think Lewis would struggle to beat these guys. Mainly because of the chin factor.


Why's Louis #2 then?

[Sweet Science]

Jesus, yet another bloke that believes the old "the guy that didn't rock me hit harder than the one that nearly knocked me out" crap. :huh


Well he does have Wlad at number 4 on his Head 2 Head list. :nut

[Sweet Science]

Why's Louis #2 then?

Louis had a better chin than Lewis. Joe was also a better finisher and could string together better combinations.

[Doppleganger]

Louis had a better chin than Lewis.
Unproven IMO.

Joe was also a better finisher and could string together better combinations.IMO the first part is arguable but the 2nd part I fully agree with. Louis was one of the very few Heavyweights who was a better combination puncher than Lewis.

[Sweet Science]

Unproven IMO.

IMO the first part is arguable but the 2nd part I fully agree with. Louis was one of the very few Heavyweights who was a better combination puncher than Lewis.

I think the majority of people consider Joe Louis to have a better chin than Lennox. I certainly do.

I also stand by my opinion that Louis was a better finisher than Lennox. Lennox could be too cautious and tentative like he was against a washed up Holyfield. Futhermore, I totally disagree with your opinion that Lewis is one of the very best combination punchers. He was good at it but there were far more than a few Heavyweights who were better at stringing together blows.

[goat15]

1. Holmes
2. Ali
3. Louis
4. Lewis
5. Liston

if you merge the sixties and seventies ali (taking his best attributes from both periods to make a super-fighter) he's number 1 by a mile. i'm thinking primes only, though.

number 5 could be a few of the others who had great primes e.g. dempsey, tyson, foreman. but for me, liston was the closest to actually being unbeatable.

[Pachilles]

Something like this:

1 - Ali
2 - Louis
3 - Liston
4 - Johnson
5 - Lewis
6 - Jeffries
7 - Frazier
8 - Hollyfield
9 - Tyson
10- Holmes

sorry but i'm going to have to call you McGraintard today, because this list is dire

[Pachilles]

Purely H2H. At their peaks, who would do the best against the other greats..

1) Muhammed Ali
2) Lennox Lewis
3) Joe Frazier
4) Mike Tyson
5) Larry Holmes
6) Joe Louis
7) Evander Holyfield
8) George Foreman
9) Riddick Bowe
10) Rocky Marciano

[PH|LLA]

isn't Norton the equal of Ali, head to head?

head to head should be about comparing 2 fighters, not more.

[Pachilles]

isn't Norton the equal of Ali, head to head?

head to head should be about comparing 2 fighters, not more.

you better take yo ass to the store wit' that

[lora]

Conteh of the Preacher whatever his name was and Terry Daniels fights should fit into the top ten nicely.

[frankenfrank]

1. Vitali Klitschko
2. George Foreman
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Oliver McCall
5. David Tua
6. Nikolay Valuev
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mike Tyson


11. Lennox Lewis
12. Larry Holmes
13. Wladimir Klitschko
14. Joe Frazier
15. Joe Louis
16. Tony Tucker
17. James Smith
18. Chris Byrd
19. James Douglas
20. Jameel McCline

21. Rocky Marciano

[manbearpig]

1. Vitali Klitschko
2. George Foreman
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Oliver McCall
5. David Tua
6. Nikolay Valuev
7. Riddick Bowe
8. Ike Ibeabuchi
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mike Tyson


11. Lennox Lewis
12. Larry Holmes
13. Wladimir Klitschko
14. Joe Frazier
15. Joe Louis
16. Tony Tucker
17. James Smith
18. Chris Byrd
19. James Douglas
20. Jameel McCline

21. Rocky Marciano

Vitali Klitschko was beaten by your number eleven.
Foreman was beaten by Ali.
David Tua was beaten by your number eleven.
Oliver McCall was beaten by your number eleven.


You are a crazy spastic bastard.
Jameel McCline? Really?

[D.T]

Time for me to put a proper list on here...

1. 60s Ali
2. Tyson
3. 70s Foreman
4. Holmes
5. Louis
6. Bowe
7. Liston
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnso

People are underrating Tyson. He would easily KO Louis, Johnson, Lewis, Frazier etc. Only Ali would beat him.

[Mordechai]

without order

lennox lewis
mike tyson
vitali klitschko
larry holmes
ali
foreman
louis
holyfield
wladimir klitschko
jack johnson

[sirhenrycooper6]

will post mine l8r .
my list is v. good .

[Duranium]

1) John L Sullivan
2) Jim Jeffries
3) Bob Fitzsimmon
4) James Corbett
5) Jack Dempsey
6) Tommy Burns
7) Rocky Marciano
8) Joe Choynsky
9) Jack Sharkey
10) Jack Johnson

[Kalasinn]

Vitali Klitschko was beaten by your number eleven.
Foreman was beaten by Ali.
David Tua was beaten by your number eleven.
Oliver McCall was beaten by your number eleven.


You are a crazy spastic bastard.
Jameel McCline? Really?

More important than any of those points, he badly underrated Sugar Niko, having him at only #6 is an insult. :verysad

[globenerd]

1. Joe Louis - I can't seem to find any way to rank these guys and not have him No. 1. Even head-to-head, he has the most complete package.
2. Larry Holmes - Didn't have the overall footwork or handspeed of Ali, but no one else in HW history did either. He did have the best jab in HW history, and great timing; two things that neutralize Ali's strengths.
3. Ali - Obviously a prime Joe Frazier beat a prime Ali, but the rest of the ATG give Frazier more trouble than Ali.
4. Lennox Lewis - Provided it was a focused and in shape Lewis. The manner of his losses is one of the biggest enigmas in boxing. His abilities are on par with any of the ATGs. I think he stands a better than 50-50 shot against anyone not ranked above him, with the possible exception of early Foreman. Early Foreman may be just the right guy to put him to sleep, even if Lewis is on his game. He'd have to do it early though.
5. Joe Frazier - You could flip-flop him and Tyson, they are so similar. I give Smokin Joe the edge because he ruled a far superior era.
6. Mike Tyson - I hesitated to put these two below Lewis, but I think both, being much shorter, would have trouble getting to a focused Lewis. And I also ranked Joe above Tyson because Joe's prospects of getting that KO wouldn't diminish as much in the later rounds as Tyson's would.

Honestly guys, everyone else I can think of would just result in a smorgasboard of mixed results.
I must add the disclaimer that I simply don't consider myself knowledgeable enough of the pre-30s eras to make a determination on those guys. I could throw Dempsey and Sulllivan and Johnson in there, but I'd be doing so on appearances.

I do wonder though, why Marciano is on no one's list at all. Unless I missed something somewhere. I skimmed through as I got in on this late.

[junior-soprano]

1 ali
2 holmes
3 liston
4 louis
5 foreman
6 frazier
7 bowe
8 tyson
9 lewis
10 dempsey

[PetethePrince]

Purely H2H. At their peaks, who would do the best against the other greats..

1) Muhammed Ali
2) Lennox Lewis
3) Joe Frazier
4) Mike Tyson
5) Larry Holmes
6) Joe Louis
7) Evander Holyfield
8) George Foreman
9) Riddick Bowe
10) Rocky Marciano

Lewis is too steep considering who he ended up losing to. In comparison, Holmes went 48-0 on his best streak before Spinks bested him, regardless of how bad you see the opposition Holmes in his best days never would've had a McCall or Rahman moment. He got up against Shavers, who hit much harder than Rahman. Tyson's got to be above Frazier, it's just a styles thing. He operates much better against punchers, and should do well against boxers, even if Frazier does better in that aspect. I know you dig him, though. I'm not the bigger Holmes fan either but strange finding myself thinking Lewis feels wrong having him 3 spots ahead, considering his career. Don't ya think?

[Duranium]

Lewis is too steep considering who he ended up losing to. In comparison, Holmes went 48-0 on his best streak before Spinks bested him, regardless of how bad you see the opposition Holmes in his best days never would've had a McCall or Rahman moment. He got up against Shavers, who hit much harder than Rahman. Tyson's got to be above Frazier, it's just a styles thing. He operates much better against punchers, and should do well against boxers, even if Frazier does better in that aspect. I know you dig him, though. I'm not the bigger Holmes fan either but strange finding myself thinking Lewis feels wrong having him 3 spots ahead, considering his career. Don't ya think?

Lewis has size, has top level boxing skills and top level KO power. He has alot going for him here, theres no real bad style matchups for him in my list. I favour him over most of the smaller guys and think he's probably the hardest matchup on there for Ali, too.

Frazier is my homeboy, no doubt. But i really do rate peak Frazier. I see him swarm-fucking almost everybody on that list, most importantly the boxers Ali, Holmes and Lewis. Barring the massive banger Foreman of course. And i also thin he'd fare alot better against Tyson than most people do. If Tyson doesnt put him away early and he runs out of ideas, he's getting dragged into deep waters and swarm-fucked also, maybe.

[Blood Green]

without order

lennox lewis
mike tyson
vitali klitschko
larry holmes
ali
foreman
louis
holyfield
wladimir klitschko
jack johnson
I like this one, but Liston deserves to be in there more than about half of those guys.

[Kalasinn]

Latest version, probably much more controversial than previous versions:

Peak H2H

1. Muhammad Ali ('65 Patterson to '67 Folley) (8 fights)

2. Mike Tyson ('86 Ribalta to '88 Spinks) (10 fights)

3. Lennox Lewis ('97 McCall II to '00 Tua) (10 fights)

4. Evander Holyfield ('90 Douglas to '93 Bowe II) (7 fights)

5. Larry Holmes ('78 Shavers I to '82 Cobb) (14 fights)

6. Riddick Bowe ('92 Holy to '93 Holy II) (4 fights)

7. Sonny Liston ('59 Dejohn to '60 Machen) (9 fights)

8. George Foreman ('73 Frazier I to '74 Ali) (4 fights)

9. Joe Frazier ('68 Mathis to '71 Ali) (8 fights)

10. Vitali Klitschko ('02 Puritty to '04 Williams) (6 fights)


Notes:

List doesn't include sub-200lbers, those i know little about (e.g. Louis) or unfilmed fighters.

Holy is above Bowe, because i favour '93 Holy (Bowe II) 55-45 against '92 Bowe I (Holy I). Plus Holyfield performs better against Tyson, Lewis, Liston, Foreman, Vitali...whereas Bowe performs better against Holmes & Frazier.

While i favour Holmes over Holy, i have Holy higher, since he performs better against Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Liston, Frazier & Vitali...while Holmes performs better against Ali & Foreman.

[Jersey Joe]

The fighters chin needs to be substantially stronger than "a bit above average" to make this list my friend. The chin of Lewis would be seriously tested by most people on this list.

The guys Lewis actually fought were harder punchers than most on this list e.g. Tyson, Tua, Ruddock, Morrison.

My list would look similar to my overall list:

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Liston
Tyson
Dempsey
Frazier
Marciano

[MonzonFan914]

Im curious to hear where everyone would place Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano....im surprised these two havent been ranked higher more often.

[Boilermaker]

Latest version, probably much more controversial than previous versions:

Peak H2H

1. Muhammad Ali ('65 Patterson to '67 Folley) (8 fights)

2. Mike Tyson ('86 Ribalta to '88 Spinks) (10 fights)

3. Lennox Lewis ('97 McCall II to '00 Tua) (10 fights)

4. Evander Holyfield ('90 Douglas to '93 Bowe II) (7 fights)

5. Larry Holmes ('78 Shavers I to '82 Cobb) (14 fights)

6. Riddick Bowe ('92 Holy to '93 Holy II) (4 fights)

7. Sonny Liston ('59 Dejohn to '60 Machen) (9 fights)

8. George Foreman ('73 Frazier I to '74 Ali) (4 fights)

9. Joe Frazier ('68 Mathis to '71 Ali) (8 fights)

10. Vitali Klitschko ('02 Puritty to '04 Williams) (6 fights)


Notes:



List doesn't include sub-200lbers, those i know little about (e.g. Louis) or unfilmed fighters.

Holy is above Bowe, because i favour '93 Holy (Bowe II) 55-45 against '92 Bowe I (Holy I). Plus Holyfield performs better against Tyson, Lewis, Liston, Foreman, Vitali...whereas Bowe performs better against Holmes & Frazier.

While i favour Holmes over Holy, i have Holy higher, since he performs better against Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Liston, Frazier & Vitali...while Holmes performs better against Ali & Foreman.

Under these circumstances, i think it is a pretty reasonable list. Though i wonder where Wlad would fit into the list. I think Wlad probably should be considered for a spot, though i am not sure who for. Also expect Michael Spinks to great some head to head chaos even though his record under the conditions is only about 2-1.

[lufcrazy]

The top 3 for me just have to be

Louis
Marciano

Clear top two for me.

Ali

He is the next best head 2 head.

The next 3 are interchangeable

Tyson
Liston
Frazier

In the bottom half you then have begin looking at

Lewis
Bowe

At 9 or ten then there could be a number of different guys. I think it's those with alwkward styles who make the cut for me

Johnson
Vitali

An honourable mention has to go to holyfield because I think he beats prime tyson, but noone else in that list.

Also I don't rate holmes that high head 2 head, I see him in the next bracket with the likes of foreman, sullivan, langford etc.

I feel the need to justify my selection of liston, it's mainly his reach and fearsome nature, I don't have him high atg, but h2h he's a beast. The same can be said for vitali, it's been a long time since there's been an iron chinned, hard hitting, well conditioned, awkward boxer. Whilst I appreciate he didn't achieve as much as the top twenty or so heavyweights, I think in his prime he gives anyone hell.

[SuzieQ49]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Sonny Liston
4. Mike Tyson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Joe Frazier


Something like that. H2H lists suck.

Real List

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Sonny Liston
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Larry Holmes
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Mike Tyson
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Jack Johnson

[lufcrazy]

Suzieq... Are you of the opinion that liston would have dominated was it not for ali, or do you believe liston was really a lot older than he claimed to be?