Lewis vs Tyson primes

[hopkinsfan07]

.........

[rr94]

Tyson

[lefthook31]

Tyson by devastating KO

[jonesjrp4p1]

tyson easily

[Jinx]

i'll take an '87 Tyson over a '99 Lewis, which was when both fighters were at their top form both physically and mentally...

[King Dan]

Lewis, easily.

LL always beat little guys, Tyson couldn't beat bigger guys with nice jabs that weren't afraid of him.

[mightyd40]

tyson mid fight ko

[nulty]

Lewis UD.

[jlrivera81]

Lewis, easily.

LL always beat little guys, Tyson couldn't beat bigger guys with nice jabs that weren't afraid of him.

Who are you talking about exactly. We're talking about Tyson's prime. He was undefeated till he fought Douglas. The only reason he lost to Douglas was b/c he was caught up in the fame and he didnt have Cus.

[King Dan]

Lewis, easily.

LL always beat little guys, Tyson couldn't beat bigger guys with nice jabs that weren't afraid of him.

Who are you talking about exactly. We're talking about Tyson's prime. He was undefeated till he fought Douglas. The only reason he lost to Douglas was b/c he was caught up in the fame and he didnt have Cus.

Razor Ruddock fights were close, Holyfield, Douglas and Lewis.

None of these top guys were afraid of Tyson and they did well.

Style wise, Tyson is made for Lewis.

[nulty]

Lewis, easily.

LL always beat little guys, Tyson couldn't beat bigger guys with nice jabs that weren't afraid of him.

Who are you talking about exactly. We're talking about Tyson's prime. He was undefeated till he fought Douglas. The only reason he lost to Douglas was b/c he was caught up in the fame and he didnt have Cus.

He didn't have Cus for his entire title reign. Stop making excuses for the man. Also just look at his opponents in the 80's they were terrified of him, just watch the Spinks fight for starters. The first guy who stood up to him consistantly was Douglas.

[nick wells jr]

one thing is without a doubt for sure,this fight with both of them in their primes would be one of the greatest of all time.im kinda leaning towards lewis because of the size differntial but at the same time mike tysons "maniacal im not gonna be happy till your not breathing style "raises questions.could lewis be able to deal with this flavor of tyson?or does mike get outboxed by a true boxer and recieve an early career blimish.its sad to say during mikes reign of terror that there wasnt anyone to really step up to the task.i would say the first one to give mike a problem was bonecrusher smith.but is mike even in his prime when this fight occurs?tough to say,good thread though.

[McGrain]

Lewis has absolutley everything required to beat Tyson except the iron jaw.

Great defencive infighting, good jab, self confidence, body weight and the know how to use it, height, great strength and a lot of power spread across a variety of shots.

I make Lewis a pretty big favourite.

BUT Tyson has a serious punchers chance.

Tyson early or Lewis late.

[barneyrub]

Lewis Tyson 1984 to 2002

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[hobgoblin]

Lewis has absolutley everything required to beat Tyson except the iron jaw.

Great defencive infighting, good jab, self confidence, body weight and the know how to use it, height, great strength and a lot of power spread across a variety of shots.

I make Lewis a pretty big favourite.

BUT Tyson has a serious punchers chance.

Tyson early or Lewis late.

At first I thought Tyson would overwhelm Lewis with his speed & aggression before Lewis could catch him - but now I don't think so. Instead, what happens is that Tyson rushes in on Lennox and forces him to make it a brawl or a slug out - that is what the original fight was except one sided. IMO, young Tyson takes a punch MUCH BETTER than the 2002 version IN THE SENSE that he can recover much faster since he is younger & superbly conditioned - the latter is key to being able to take a punch. While Lewis was a superior puncher to Ruddock - Ruddock's power & punches were comparable to the leather that Lewis landed on Tyson. Tyson almost always took Ruddock's best shots AND IMMEDIATELY came back with his own with quick recovery. He couldn't do this in 2002 not because Lewis was too powerful of a puncher for him - it is because he wasn't conditioned to recover.

What Tyson ALWAYS lacked in his career was consistent strategy - he didn't have this even in his prime. What he did have in his prime and not after though - was SPIRIT (and some more physical abilities). The Tyson against Ruddock - had SPIRIT (and superior recovery). It takes spirit to come right back after taking a Ruddock smash.

I see Lewis being FORCED to slug. He lands on Tyson because he is fast himself - but then that leaves him vulnerable for a counter. Tyson has a terrific chin and excellent recovery from a punch or two at a time (for which he is hardly given credit) AND can come back to dish his own. This is where he catches Lewis with a great shot and decks Lewis. Lewis has a better chin than given credit for - gets up. Tyson either decisions him or eventually wears him down or catches him with a monster counter punch to get the TKO.

Yes, Lennox Lewis overal with his size, POWER, boxing skills etc was GREAT. However, as a boxer alone - he was highly overrated. You can look good against guys like David Tua or even a washed up Tyson with the jab - but when he faced a decent boxer like Ray Mercer (A grade contender btw that Lennox CLEARLY but closely beat) or even Frank Bruno - his average boxing skills showed - but his AWESOME POWER (against Bruno) showed up and proved that this was his single best asset.

His jab is not as fluid or as doubled as Douglas'. Lennox throws the combinations of a slugger IMO rather than the combinatons of a boxer. Slugger's combo is generally more powerful a little slower and less fluid whereas a boxer's combo is lesser powerful but more faster & fluid. The latter type are easier to land from a distance IMO although I have to say - you see the Rahman 2 KO and realize how great of a puncher Lennox was. Still, Tyson had great reflexes for power shots from a distance. Whereas Douglas always a kept a distance unless he chose to school Tyson on the inside - Lennox would fight midrange quite a bit so he could slug it out. If he tried to purely box Tyson (this wouldn't even be an option) - he wouldn't be very successful.

Lennox Lewis will not be as successful with the jab as Douglas because his boxer's jab is not as good. He was not as great of an inside combination puncher as Douglas either (key to beating Tyson) where Douglas landed many 4 punch combinations on the inside. What made Lennox obviously better than Douglas, among other things, was not his boxing but his AMAZING POWER.

Lennox's power IMO would betray him here against the spirited, granite chinned Mike Tyson. It wouldn't be nearly as successful as it was in 2002 because Tyson would recover and counter in the blink of an eye.

My mechanism clearly isn't certain. So I say 50/50. The key question is: what does Tyson do when Lewis tags him? Come right back (my opinion) or slow down?

[Vanboxingfan]

I personally think Lewis' uppercut becomes a key weapon..along with leaning on Tyson's back and sapping his strength. I agree with the poster who said Tyson early or Lewis late and would lean every towards the latter.

[hobgoblin]

I personally think Lewis' uppercut becomes a key weapon

Definitely. Tyson was always a sucker for uppercuts. Interestingly though, the punch before the actual KO - was an uppercut that Tyson dodged. Key question is: can Tyson take that uppercut and come right back with his own? I think so.

along with leaning on Tyson's back and sapping his strength

If someone just gave Tyson an ounce of common sense and told him to infight rather than do zilch and wait for ref to break them. Too bad. However, I do think 1980s Tyson was very well conditioned to handle this and he'd throw some explosive punches on the inside occasionally to let Lewis know this isn't a good idea.

[Vanboxingfan]

Definitely. Tyson was always a sucker for uppercuts. Interestingly though, the punch before the actual KO - was an uppercut that Tyson dodged. Key question is: can Tyson take that uppercut and come right back with his own? I think so.



If someone just gave Tyson an ounce of common sense and told him to infight rather than do zilch and wait for ref to break them. Too bad. However, I do think 1980s Tyson was very well conditioned to handle this and he'd throw some explosive punches on the inside occasionally to let Lewis know this isn't a good idea.

I don't know, Tyson himself said he was hurt in the first round by Lewis' uppercut..as for Tyson's uppercut, it would end up being more of a bodyshot than anything else, not that that would be a bad thing, in fact it could prove to be devastating.

I don't think Tyson was the best insider fighter of all time. If Lewis tied him up he could lean on him quite a bit. Tyson may have been more explosive but I believe Lewis was significantly stronger than Tyson. But this wouldn't be Lewis' fight, I think he'd be backiing up as Tyson comes in and throwing either uppercuts or his overhand right, then trying to tie Tyson up if Tyson did get through. Tyson would have to deal with this within the first 2-3 rounds otherwise the punishment would accumulate. That's my thinking anyway. Tyson would have to try and trap Lewis, which wouldn't be easy. Prime Lewis was much faster than the older version.

[hopkinsfan07]

tyson would have a great punchers chance even at his worst moment against dougless he nearly got a ko late in the fight and i felt he had knocked him out when the ref got to 9

[McGrain]

It's good that you mention ALL fights when he was past his prime when we're talking about a prime Tyson. I have this fight 50/50, but your points were ridiculous. What makes you think he is made for Lewis?


Interesting you should see it as 50/50, not nearly enough people have it that way (I don't myself).

Sweet Pea, to what extent do you agree with my theory that, chin aside, the perfect design for a fighter who has to beat Tyson would be close to Lewis.

Big, tall, powerful across a wide range of punches, very strong, heavy with the smarts to use it and a world class defensive infighter?

[TIGEREDGE]

Lewis late TKO.

They sparred together before both turned pro, in the end Lewis knew how to beat Tyson. Tyson never changed his style and Lewis always knew what to do against him. Would be more close than the original fight but the end would be similar.

Lewis really feared the 80's Tyson. he said in the legendary nights program "That he would never like to cross paths with tyson in his prime"

[Muchmoore]

.........

Tyson makes him his girlfriend :yep

I think Lewis gives Tyson problems but in the end Tysons aggression and natural ability is too much and he stops him in about 4 rounds.

[TheGreat]

Interesting you should see it as 50/50, not nearly enough people have it that way (I don't myself).

Sweet Pea, to what extent do you agree with my theory that, chin aside, the perfect design for a fighter who has to beat Tyson would be close to Lewis.

Big, tall, powerful across a wide range of punches, very strong, heavy with the smarts to use it and a world class defensive infighter?

The perfect fighter to beat a peak Tyson would be some with good size and fast hands and feet who could dance or move like Ali, Holy or Holmes, before Tyson got old (01 Neilson fight is when he was shot) He never had problems with big guys who could punch Like Ruddock, Bruno or Golota as he only had problems with movers with speed like Holy, Douglas, Tillis, and tucker.

[stuistylee]

tyson early

[barneyrub]

The perfect fighter to beat a peak Tyson would be some with good size and fast hands and feet who could dance or move like Ali, Holy or Holmes, before Tyson got old (01 Neilson fight is when he was shot) He never had problems with big guys who could punch Like Ruddock, Bruno or Golota as he only had problems with movers with speed like Holy, Douglas, Tillis, and tucker.Lewis was a good mover who could get on his toes and move just like holmes, ali and all.

[JMotrain]

Tyson by KO within 3 rounds.

[Vanboxingfan]

Tyson by KO within 3 rounds.


Funny, that's pretty much what the consensus was before they actually fought and look how that turned out.

[brooklyn1550]

Lewis by KO

[tays001]

gots to go with lewis. even though a prime tyson is very good for some reason i think a prime lewis beat him by MD . but tyson could ge the win realy im split dnt realy know

but my gut says lewis even prime for prime im nort a delusional tyson fan just a fanatic

[paulfv]

Tyson by HUGE KO.

Even the later, prime Lewis [the "jab-and-grab" Lewis] could not have contained the rampaging prime Tyson.

And we all know that Lewis' chin would not hold up under the assault. So it would just be how long Lewis could avoid getting laid out. My guess is Tyson chops him down within 8, probably around the 6th or so.

[Carlos Primera]

tyson by KO inside 6 rounds

[codeman99998]

Anyone who thinks Tyson easily wins this is stupid.

Seriously.

If you think that you are stupid. Fucking stupid.

People who think it's a tough fight, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, Lewis KO 8-11.

[huki]

Anyone who thinks Tyson easily wins this is stupid.

Seriously.

If you think that you are stupid. Fucking stupid.

People who think it's a tough fight, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, Lewis KO 8-11. Is it that crazy to think that an offensive beast like Tyson with insane speed, power, timing, etc can crack the chin of Lennox in a few rounds? I don't think this is an "easy" fight for Tyson, but there are more difficult head to head matchups for him than Lewis. If Lennox had an iron chin, then this would be a MUCH tougher match.

You're making it seem like this is an easy pick and Lennox would definitely beat Tyson prime for prime. THAT is pretty damn stupid.

[codeman99998]

Is it that crazy to think that an offensive beast like Tyson with insane speed, power, timing, etc can crack the chin of Lennox in a few rounds? I don't think this is an "easy" fight for Tyson, but there are more difficult head to head matchups for him than Lewis. If Lennox had an iron chin, then this would be a MUCH tougher match.

You're making it seem like this is an easy pick and Lennox would definitely beat Tyson prime for prime. THAT is pretty damn stupid.

Lennox Lewis has a much much better chin than people give him credit for.

Tyson has been KOd more times than Lewis.

[huki]

Lennox Lewis has a much much better chin than people give him credit for.

Tyson has been KOd more times than Lewis.
First of all, we're talking prime here and Tyson was never even close to being KO'ed in the 80's. Second, both times Lewis was KO'ed it was from a single punch. Tyson was only KO'ed in matches where he was getting beat down round by round. Even an old ass, 5% of what he once was Tyson took a HUGE amount of punishment from a strong puncher in Lennox before getting knocked out. Don't even try to make it seem like Lennox's chin was better or even close to being in the same league as Tyson's. Any Lewis fan that thinks he could take even a few of Tyson's best shots in a prime for prime matchup is absolutely crazy.

[JMotrain]

First of all, we're talking prime here and Tyson was never even close to being KO'ed in the 80's. Second, both times Lewis was KO'ed it was from a single punch. Tyson was only KO'ed in matches where he was getting beat down round by round. Even an old ass, 5% of what he once was Tyson took a HUGE amount of punishment from a strong puncher in Lennox before getting knocked out. Don't even try to make it seem like Lennox's chin was better or even close to being in the same league as Tyson's. Any Lewis fan that thinks he could take even a few of Tyson's best shots in a prime for prime matchup is absolutely crazy.

:good

Tyson never went down from 1 shot from a journeymen and didn't get back up. At his best, he was buzzed but never down. Tyson was a HUGE waste of talent, but at his best, he was a formible opponent for anybody.

Tyson in his prime was relentless, and he would eventually find Lewis, and Lewis would get tagged and not get up.

We are talking prime for prime here, not the washed up Tyson that still ate huge shots from Lewis for 8 fucking rounds before being disposed of. Just imagine the young Tyson with excellent defense, it would be a very short night for Lewis.

[fists of fury]

[quote=codeman99998]Anyone who thinks Tyson easily wins this is stupid.

Seriously.

If you think that you are stupid. Fucking stupid.

quote]
:-( Now I know why I stay in the classic section. Wonderful rationale there, buddy.

[marauder1999]

Tyson by first round KO

[lion]

it is not easy for LEWIS to survive this one, not with that chin of his. tyson wrecks him in 5 rounds.
lewis could never beat that tyson no way.

[Stewbear]

First of all, we're talking prime here and Tyson was never even close to being KO'ed in the 80's. Second, both times Lewis was KO'ed it was from a single punch. Tyson was only KO'ed in matches where he was getting beat down round by round. Even an old ass, 5% of what he once was Tyson took a HUGE amount of punishment from a strong puncher in Lennox before getting knocked out. Don't even try to make it seem like Lennox's chin was better or even close to being in the same league as Tyson's. Any Lewis fan that thinks he could take even a few of Tyson's best shots in a prime for prime matchup is absolutely crazy.
Lol Tyson got KTFO in his prime by Buster Douglas:lol:
Worse than that he got completely dominated and outboxed.
Tyson was exposed there is no basis to suggest Tyson could ever beat Lewis.

[McGrain]

The perfect fighter to beat a peak Tyson would be some with good size and fast hands and feet who could dance or move like Ali, Holy or Holmes, before Tyson got old (01 Neilson fight is when he was shot) He never had problems with big guys who could punch Like Ruddock, Bruno or Golota as he only had problems with movers with speed like Holy, Douglas, Tillis, and tucker.


Hollyfield and Tillis were hardly dancers.

They had quickish hands, but I don't agree with you at all. Lateral movement was what Tyson was prepared to overcome - that style was found out over and over again v Tyson.

[Dr Gonzo]

you consider the tyson, that went in with douglas, a prime tyson..?? :patsch

he had been on the grog and fucking japanese hookers for 3 days straight apparently

silly boy:-(

[Stewbear]

you consider the tyson, that went in with douglas, a prime tyson..?? :patsch

Ok well then no one has ever lost in their prime.

[McGrain]

Tyson by HUGE KO.

Even the later, prime Lewis [the "jab-and-grab" Lewis] could not have contained the rampaging prime Tyson.

But Bonecrusher Smith did - Lewis is far more adept at using his weight to control his man.

And we all know that Lewis' chin would not hold up under the assault.

No, we don't know that.

Lewis has fought a huge number of punchers and was knocked down less than almost every other lineal champ. He was sparked on those two occasions of course.

To quantify - Liston, Tyson, Ali, Dempsey, etc. etc. etc. were all finished at the age Lewis was sparked the second time.

[McGrain]

Tucker , Bonecrusher Smith, Savarese, Alex Stewart, Carl Williams, Tyrell Biggs, Jose Ribalta, Mitch Green all measured up to Lewis in size and Mike Tyson destroyed them all .... Tyson beats Lewis K.O1


Right. Mike destroyed Bonecrusher Smith.

Thanks.

[ThePlugInBabies]

Lol Tyson got KTFO in his prime by Buster Douglas:lol:
Worse than that he got completely dominated and outboxed.
Tyson was exposed there is no basis to suggest Tyson could ever beat Lewis.

oh didn't you know? tyson gets a free pass for this loss because on the flight over to japan he left his prime and went into the 'shot' phase of his career. :roll:

just like lewis has no one to blame but himself for being unprepared and getting his arse kicked by rahman, the same should apply here, tyson has no one to blame but himself for his shoddy showing v douglas, and defending him for it is lame and a job for the nuthuggers.

[McGrain]

Yes Tyson destroyed Bonecrusher Smith winning every round on ALL judges score-cards...

Of course, but in the meantime, Bonecrusher smothered Tyson's offense in a very affective way (at cost to his own offense).

Lewis is more adept at infighting (primarliy defencive) than anyone Tyson has faced. He is heavier and knows more about controlling the action with his weight. He can punch with good leverage from a clinch (As Tyson knows).

You've used Bonecrusher as an example of why Tyson would beat Lewis. I think it is a paramount example of the opposite.

Lewis pulled out of a match against Bonecrusher in 1991 when he and his camp realized that Lewis was in way over his head and would have been beaten

What proof do you have to back this outrageous statement?

[McGrain]

any normal person, with a reasonable inteligence, could and still can see, that tyson was far from the fitness required to fight, he looked like a guy who had smoken a little to much marihuana. he was more then sluggish.

Do you give Lewis a pass in the Rahman fight?

[McGrain]

I agree. You can't just be a tall fighter with a good jab, he will over-power you.


Yes. One of boxing's biggest myths is that


Jab + lateral movement + bravery


Is the equation for beating Tyson.

I really don't even know where it came from.

[ThePlugInBabies]

you brits often sound jealous or paranoid.. :yep

yes, because saying lewis and tyson deserve equal stick for their losses against rahman and douglas is sooooo crazy :patsch you're the one saying giving tyson a free pass because his life was 'so fucked up'. didn't harm him before that fight though did it?

both were undercooked, both got what they deserved.

but only one came back to avenge his defeat :deal

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis has absolutley everything required to beat Tyson except the iron jaw.

Great defencive infighting, good jab, self confidence, body weight and the know how to use it, height, great strength and a lot of power spread across a variety of shots.

I make Lewis a pretty big favourite.

BUT Tyson has a serious punchers chance.

Tyson early or Lewis late.

Agree with near enough everything here, except for the big favourite tag.

My take is that it's a 50/50 fight. :good

[McGrain]

personally i think, that tysons life, was by far mor fucked up, then lewis ever was.

But who's fault is that? If Tyson is up all night fucking hookers and drinking two days before a fight he is an idiot. Of course he will lose in the composite sport that is boxing. He must blame himself.

I blame Tyson, as an adult male, for the way he lived his life. Similairly, I hold Lewis responsible for his loss in South Africa.

how many things did tyson endure.. there is circumstances, that explains tyson demise and why he wasnt able to comeback strong.

He "endured" surrounding himself with the wrong people in his personal and business life. The circustances are mostly self inflicted. I still don't see how this impacts upon Lewis in South Africa and where you stand over that.

likewise there were cirsumstances, that made lewis, to be able to comeback strong.

Yes. Clean living, dedication to training and the sport he loved.

lewis came unprepared because of a movie, tyson came unprepared because his live was fucked up.

Both made stupid mistakes,yes. Are you suggesting there's a difference?

so to answer your question, the pass i give tyson, i wouldnt give to lewis, not the the same extent.

I think that's pitiful. Really pitiful. Nuthuggery of the worst order because it apples rules of judgement unevenly.

[ThePlugInBabies]

was tysons life so fucked before the douglas fight..

go do your research boy:deal

my point wasn't that tyson didn't have a tough life, i'm fully aware of the troubles he has faced throughout his life, my point was it is rather a
convenient arguement to use and that it didn't seem to bother him in every other pro fight leading up to his bout with douglas.

[McGrain]

nuthuggery.. pitiful sounds like your mother.!:deal

Ah, here we go, quite literally the last bastion of the wrong, insulting the guys mother.

you might wanna study some basics psychology, and then come back.

If you are trying to say that Tyson is damaged goods basically, I will have to repeat myself (much to your disgust, but you just don't seem to be getting it). BOXING IS A COMPOSITE SPORT. If Tyson is weak mentally, damaged mentally, or has mental problems, of course that is going to impact his results. You can't just dismiss those results.

to just say, its choices and therefore its the same, is perhaps the biggest crock of stinking shit, since i witnessed you mammas breath.

Nice.

Tyson made a series of choices that you say cost him a match.

Lewis made a series of choices that I say cost him a match.

Where's the problem here?

ive already stated my opinion, and re writing the same shit over and over again, isnt my style

Yes, defending your opinion certainly isn't your style. Instulting a guys mother is.

[TheGreat]

Hollyfield and Tillis were hardly dancers.

They had quickish hands, but I don't agree with you at all. Lateral movement was what Tyson was prepared to overcome - that style was found out over and over again v Tyson.

They were also light on there feet. Before Tyson got old he NEVER had problems with big strong stationary fighters who could bang his most competetive fights were against guys who could match his speed or atleast were just a little bit slower but could move, Bruno, golata, and Ruddock were hard punchers with good jabs but Tyson destroyed them.

[BigReg]

I've had this debate with so many people. A prime Tyson gets his ass kicked by a prime Lewis. This fight wouldn't even be that close.

[codeman99998]

I've had this debate with so many people. A prime Tyson gets his ass kicked by a prime Lewis. This fight wouldn't even be that close.

Exactly right.

Perhaps 1 or 2 times out of 10 Tyson gets lucky.

[josak]

Exactly right.

Perhaps 1 or 2 times out of 10 Tyson gets lucky.

:lol: u r funny. I'll give Lewis a chance here but were talking prime Tyson -- not the guy who fought Douglas, Rudduck, Holyfield, Lewis etc... this is the guy who took out spinks in 90 seconds; the motivated, hungry, wrecking machine of the late 80's. In my book, Lewis gets KO'd 9 times out of ten, but believe what you want.

[ironchamp]

Lennox Lewis has a much much better chin than people give him credit for.

Tyson has been KOd more times than Lewis.

Tyson has also been hit flush more times than Lewis.

In the match up I take Tyson via KO.

Not an easy fight for either but Tyson's aggression will keep Lewis fighting a fight not suited for him.

[josak]

And Lewis has said himself he wouldn't want to fight a prime Tyson.

[paulfv]

Here's a question for anyone who thinks Lewis had a prayer against Prime Tyson:


Do you think Mike Tyson can hit harder than the man delivering the blow in the following video clip? -


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Unless you believe Hasim Rahman - who couldn't even take out Oleg Maskaev - hits harder than Prime Tyson, that clip gives you a pretty good idea of what would have happened to Lewis if he had faced Prime Tyson.

The only guys who could stay in the ring with Prime Mike were made of FAR sturdier stuff than Lewis or his tinfoil chin: Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, James Tillis and Mitch Green.

The only question would have been which round. And remember, had Lewis actually fought Prime Tyson, it would have been before LL mastered his "jab-and-grab."

Let's just say that the Brits would have been a'whistling for the 2-3 rounds it would have lasted before Lewis was blasted out like a PT boat going against a battleship.

Verdict: Tyson by brutal KTFO somewhere between rounds 2-4.

[Danny Ocean]

lewis ko

[T.S.]

Prime for prime
Lewis destroys Tyson with ease.

[Danny Ocean]

And Lewis has said himself he wouldn't want to fight a prime Tyson.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

prime tyson was a myth

[Vanboxingfan]

And Lewis has said himself he wouldn't want to fight a prime Tyson.

And the source is?

Actually it was Tyson after his loss to Lewis who said he could never beat him. However, unlike you, I don't take this type of comment too seriously.

[Vanboxingfan]

Is it that crazy to think that an offensive beast like Tyson with insane speed, power, timing, etc can crack the chin of Lennox in a few rounds? I don't think this is an "easy" fight for Tyson, but there are more difficult head to head matchups for him than Lewis. If Lennox had an iron chin, then this would be a MUCH tougher match.

You're making it seem like this is an easy pick and Lennox would definitely beat Tyson prime for prime. THAT is pretty damn stupid.

Both extremes are equally stupid. And you haven't actually watched any of Lewis' fights if you buy into how easy it is to crack Lewis' chin. In fact they've summed up his ability to take a punch on a you tube video, you should check it out.

[codeman99998]

Here's a question for anyone who thinks Lewis had a prayer against Prime Tyson:


Do you think Mike Tyson can hit harder than the man delivering the blow in the following video clip? -


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Unless you believe Hasim Rahman - who couldn't even take out Oleg Maskaev - hits harder than Prime Tyson, that clip gives you a pretty good idea of what would have happened to Lewis if he had faced Prime Tyson.

The only guys who could stay in the ring with Prime Mike were made of FAR sturdier stuff than Lewis or his tinfoil chin: Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, James Tillis and Mitch Green.

The only question would have been which round. And remember, had Lewis actually fought Prime Tyson, it would have been before LL mastered his "jab-and-grab."

Let's just say that the Brits would have been a'whistling for the 2-3 rounds it would have lasted before Lewis was blasted out like a PT boat going against a battleship.

Verdict: Tyson by brutal KTFO somewhere between rounds 2-4.
Dumb argument.

I think Tua hits harder than the guy in the clip. I think Briggs hits harder than the guy in that clip, and Lewis beat both of them.

Lennox Lewis hits harder than Buster Douglas therefore there is no doubt that Lewis beats Tyson, right? (No, obviously not, it's an idiot's argument.)

The truth that no Tyson fan wants to admit is that Lewis was OBVIOUSLY horribly under-prepared in the Rahman fight, and he showed that very clearly in their rematch. See, Lewis was able to PROVE after his losses that he was actually the better man, and that he either A) was having an off-night or B) didn't take the fight seriously enough.

Lewis beat Tua pretty impressively. He showed he can beat a shorter hard hitting HW.

Tyson never beat anyone even close to close to as good as Lennox Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

Well, Lewis could NOT move like Ali or Holmes. He could move though and was mobile enough to avoid a brawl he couldn't win.

I wouldn't put down Tyson's skills. He may have been a brawler, but he was smart in how he executed. Battering the body to get to the head - usually dropping punches hard when tagged.

He wasn't the most cultured, but he knew what worked. If Lewis could weather the initial barrage and counter effectively, while not being bullied, then he would probably get the win because Tyson didn't have the height or reach advantage to effectively box his way in. he did have the stamina and workrate to keep hitting though, which could have phased Lewis.

Lewis, however, was a better technician, using his jab and straight right to hold the outside. If Tyson did get through, Lewis could throw a vicious uppercut to keep the momentum before holding Tyson and smothering his work.

I'd go 60-40 Lewis if it makes it past round three.

Best comment on the thread, I agree wholeheartedly. Nice analysis.

[lefthook31]

Tyson during his prime, was pretty close to the best ever in my opinion. Unfortunately he couldnt keep it together to realize his full potential. He could have easily broken Marciano's record, and wiped the division clean of its best fighters, and retired somewhere in the mid 90's. He would have beaten Holyfield, Lewis, and probably had a little tougher time with Bowe if he fought him at his best.
Noone is to blame but Tyson. Anyone who thinks he was the same fighter after he got out of prision is crazy. Its understandable people still thought that Tyson was the same even after leaving Rooney, but that wasnt the case either. Its not just the fighter that makes greatness. Its the trainer, the team, the matchmaker, and the manager. Tyson had the perfect group around him in the beginning to bring him along and test him at the right times in his career and bring out the best in him. He got better and better, more confident, and reached the pinnacle when he faced Mike Spinks, who many thought would give Tyson a real tough fight. He mowed over Spinks, detroyed Larry Holmes, who went on to give guys like Holyfield, Mercer, and Mcall, really tough fights.
He fought for the title, for glory, the money was secondary. He was programmed to be a fighter, who went to the gym and back to the arena.
His handlers always knew if they let him run wild, he would destroy himself, and thats why they kept him tucked away in the Catskills, and had him fighting 3 times a month. As soon as he lost his authority figures and started doing what he wanted, it was as quick a progression down, as it was to the top.
Noone should be surprised how Tyson wound up, if anything they should be suprised hes not dead or in jail by now.
He even admitted he stopped being a figther after the Razor Ruddock fights. It doesnt matter how good you are or how much money they offer, if your heart aint into it, you cant do it anymore. Tyson pretended for the last 10 years of his career.

[Vanboxingfan]

what was it 2 deaths. rooney leaving, a psycho bitch in givens and king manipulating tyson..

its not really what the doctor ordered, for a youndgand allredy troubled man:deal

plug in, its like you cant enjoy both fighters.. i rate both guys very highly, based on what they did in the ring, but for me, there are circumstances that expalins why tyson, was more messed up, then lewis ever was.

lewis was handled the exact correct way, while tyson was taken advantage of.

you could say, it was his choice, but take a look at his childhood, take a look at his life, then you should realize, that he didnt have the capacity to take such choices.

on one hand tyson, could sound smart, on the other he could seem like a boy in a grown mans body.. tyson was never ever equipped to the task of taking the correct choices.

he will always be sorrounde by controversy and mistakes, that makes his life harder

This is idiotic. In the world of sports, what you accomplish is what you accomplish period. Do you Tyson's the only one to overcome problems? What about Louis? What about Dempsey riding the rails? What about Jack Johnson. The list is endless. Once two fighters step into the ring, the excusses go out the window, period.

[paulfv]

The only fighters I could see hanging with the 1985-1989 version of Tyson are: Ali, a SUPREMELY MOTIVATED Buster Douglas, and possibly a motivated Foreman (the young version). I'll add Jack Johnson because of his amazing defensive ability.

Of those 4 mentioned above, the only guy I could actually see winning a best-of-ten series with Prime Tyson is Ali. Others:

Marciano? - giving up 25+ pounds.

Holmes? - No shot, would have been hunted down and destroyed. His jab would not have saved him.

Liston? - Huge discrepancy in speed. Can't see it.

Louis? - Like Lewis, didn't have the chin to take Tyson's shots

Holyfield? - If you saw the success (a diminished) Tyson had going to Holyfield's body, you know Evander wouldn't have lasted, even as tough as he was

Dempsey? - See Marciano and Louis.

Jack Johnson? - Maybe, maybe. Johnson was so good at defense that he might be able to hang in with Tyson long
enough to frustrate him and land some scoring blows. But you're talking about 80 years of difference in athletic training, technique, etc. Tyson's speed would have been very eye-opening for Johnson, especially that speed coming from a HW. But Jack could probably last the fight and possibly have
a chance to win.

Lewis? - No way. Even the "jab-and-grab" version of Lewis would have had no chance to last the fight. That version of Lewis took some wicked shots from Holyfield, shots that would have without a doubt dropped him or set him up for the kill against Prime Tyson. Any version of Lewis on any type of supplements he wanted would have been KO'd against Prime Tyson. The "jab-and-grab" may have prolonged the beating, but there is no way that Lewis would have made the final bell. All of Prime Tyson's opponents felt Mike's power, and only Bonecrusher Smith had the IRON jaw to not be on his bicycle and absorb it without going down (of course, he was re-nicknamed "Bonehugger" after the fight and his incessant clinching of Tyson during the match). Needless to say, Lewis did not have Smith's chin, nor was he an 'on-his-toes' fighter for 12 rounds like the far more athletic Tucker. There is no other sound conclusion to come to than Tyson eventually penetrates the "jab-and-grab" of Lewis and soon thereafter concusses the frail-chinned one into the child-eating wilderness of Mike's "Bolivion."


Verdict: Tyson by HUGE KTFO somewhere between rounds 8-10, earlier if Lewis feels he must trade with Mike to have a chance to win (which would be his only hope).

[Danny Ocean]

lewis,ali,louis,holyfield,foreman and holmes would all beat prime tyson

[Vanboxingfan]

Tyson during his prime, was pretty close to the best ever in my opinion. Unfortunately he couldnt keep it together to realize his full potential. He could have easily broken Marciano's record, and wiped the division clean of its best fighters, and retired somewhere in the mid 90's. He would have beaten Holyfield, Lewis, and probably had a little tougher time with Bowe if he fought him at his best.
Noone is to blame but Tyson. Anyone who thinks he was the same fighter after he got out of prision is crazy. Its understandable people still thought that Tyson was the same even after leaving Rooney, but that wasnt the case either. Its not just the fighter that makes greatness. Its the trainer, the team, the matchmaker, and the manager. Tyson had the perfect group around him in the beginning to bring him along and test him at the right times in his career and bring out the best in him. He got better and better, more confident, and reached the pinnacle when he faced Mike Spinks, who many thought would give Tyson a real tough fight. He mowed over Spinks, detroyed Larry Holmes, who went on to give guys like Holyfield, Mercer, and Mcall, really tough fights.
He fought for the title, for glory, the money was secondary. He was programmed to be a fighter, who went to the gym and back to the arena.
His handlers always knew if they let him run wild, he would destroy himself, and thats why they kept him tucked away in the Catskills, and had him fighting 3 times a month. As soon as he lost his authority figures and started doing what he wanted, it was as quick a progression down, as it was to the top.
Noone should be surprised how Tyson wound up, if anything they should be suprised hes not dead or in jail by now.
He even admitted he stopped being a figther after the Razor Ruddock fights. It doesnt matter how good you are or how much money they offer, if your heart aint into it, you cant do it anymore. Tyson pretended for the last 10 years of his career.

I agree with a lot of this, but I wouldn't say for sure Tyson beats Holyfield, Lewis or Bowe, that's pure speculation based on how he did against lesser skilled fighters. All three had the skills, and two had the size to make any fight very difficult for Tyson. Over the years posters, partiularly the younger ones, have mythical believes about his abilities and his accomplishments. Sure in his prime I too thought he wasn't going to get beat, but he never fought anyone as good as these three and certainly one or more of them could possibly have beaten him.

[MrMagic]

Either man can prevail.
But the "ooh, Douglas fought like a real ATG-top5 against Tyson" is absolute bullshit, Lewis would beat Tyson just as bad as he did eventually, if it had been that bad night for Tyson against a prime Lewis.

[lefthook31]

I agree with a lot of this, but I wouldn't say for sure Tyson beats Holyfield, Lewis or Bowe, that's pure speculation based on how he did against lesser skilled fighters. All three had the skills, and two had the size to make any fight very difficult for Tyson. Over the years posters, partiularly the younger ones, have mythical believes about his abilities and his accomplishments. Sure in his prime I too thought he wasn't going to get beat, but he never fought anyone as good as these three and certainly one or more of them could possibly have beaten him.

Sure and that can be said for most fights between good champions that never happened. Did they have a chance to win, of course. We will never know because they never happened. The only way to evaluate them is how they faced similar competition stylistically. Tyson during his prime had a ton of speed and was a tremendous infighter. He showed the ability to avoid punches and work his way in against taller more mobile fighters. Lewis was never a good infighter, and I dont think Lewis style of grabbing on the inside would have done much good for him against a relentless Tyson. Lewis possessed a good jab, but that would not have been enough to keep Tyson in check. It took more than that, it took someone who could fight inside and more of a range of punches in their arsenal. Someone with a style like Buster Douglas. Bowe had a similar style to Douglas, but better. He was mean, he could fight like hell on the inside, and had an awesome jab. He would have had more chances against Tyson if his chin could stand up.
Holyfield on the other hand had the heart, and stamina, but I dont believe he would have been able to stand up to the punishment a prime Tyson would have dished out. Holyfield was much more of a brawler in his prime, and he showed his vulnerability when he brawled with guys like Bert Cooper, and George Foreman.
Tyson in his prime was a force, he didnt quit or give up, and showed a lot of heart. He would have been able to keep the pressure on Holyfield most likely wearing him down and stopping him mid to late rounds of their fight.
All specualtion, but my opinion. :good

[barneyrub]

Here's a question for anyone who thinks Lewis had a prayer against Prime Tyson:


Do you think Mike Tyson can hit harder than the man delivering the blow in the following video clip? -


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Unless you believe Hasim Rahman - who couldn't even take out Oleg Maskaev - hits harder than Prime Tyson, that clip gives you a pretty good idea of what would have happened to Lewis if he had faced Prime Tyson.

The only guys who could stay in the ring with Prime Mike were made of FAR sturdier stuff than Lewis or his tinfoil chin: Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tucker, James Tillis and Mitch Green.

The only question would have been which round. And remember, had Lewis actually fought Prime Tyson, it would have been before LL mastered his "jab-and-grab."

Let's just say that the Brits would have been a'whistling for the 2-3 rounds it would have lasted before Lewis was blasted out like a PT boat going against a battleship.

Verdict: Tyson by brutal KTFO somewhere between rounds 2-4.Prime Tyson who couldnt take out Smith, Ruddock, green, tucker........ oh yeah guys that were so much tougher than Lewis lol you get better all the time JLC, sonnybox, paul whatever you want to call yourself today lol.

[nick wells jr]

lets go with the tyson in the berbick fight to settle all the time frames of which tyson we're talking about.this flavor of tyson in my opinion is him at his finest,this was the first fight in which mike was on his his way to unifying all the titles.now which flavor of lewis do we go with?

[lefthook31]

lets go with the tyson in the berbick fight to settle all the time frames of which tyson we're talking about.this flavor of tyson in my opinion is him at his finest,this was the first fight in which mike was on his his way to unifying all the titles.now which flavor of lewis do we go with?

Tyson was at his peak against Spinks.

[paulfv]

Dumb argument.
No, you selectively took from my argument and omitted other unspoken premises, things such as "Prime Tyson was faster than both Rahman and Tua." I'd expect any knowledgable fan to understand that implicitly, but I forgot I have to write for both the rubes and the knowledgable fan. Point taken. Tyson hits harder than Rahman, who has proven he has enough power to 1-punch KO Lewis. Tua did not have enough speed (or conditioning) to overcome Prime "jab-and-grab" Lewis. Prime Tyson was both faster and had better conditioning and footwork than either Rahman or Tua. Etc., etc. Continue the reasoning and syllogisms-creation until you come to the conclusion I've arrived at.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about (syllogisms involving Tyson and Lewis):

P1- Rahman 1-punch-KO'd Lewis
P2- Prime Tyson hits harder than Rahman
-------------------------------------------------
C- Prime Tyson could 1-punch-KO Lewis

or:

P1- McCall 1-punch-TKO'd Lewis
P2- Prime Tyson hits at least as hard as McCall
----------------------------------------------------------
C - Prime Tyson could 1-punch-TKO Lewis


Thinking logically isn't difficult. That is, when you're used to doing it, and you don't have your "hugger" glasses on.

What's especially useful with Lewis is that his 1-punch KO/TKO defeats came at different ages (one at the age of 29, one at the age of 35), so the theory of his being 'past his prime' when he was 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd is out the window. You dont get much more prime than 29. His style changed after McCall, but his chin remained as shoddy as it started, as weak as was in his 'prime.'

How much remedial boxing instruction do you need, codeman, just so I know for future posts/articles? Can I assume you know what the different weight divisions are named, or will that, too, need to be explicitly stated?

Here's your first lesson: A "heavyweight," as that term is used in professional boxing involving a man fighting a man, is currently defined as someone who fights at a weight of 200+ lbs. That definition has changed over time. More can be learned here:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

No charge for my first lesson.

[paulfv]

Prime Tyson who couldnt take out Smith, Ruddock, green, tucker........ oh yeah guys that were so much tougher than Lewis lol you get better all the time JLC, sonnybox, paul whatever you want to call yourself today lol.

I have no relation to JLC, Sonnybox, or anyone else. I only post under my own handle. Always have, always will.

And if you think Tyson was "Prime" against Ruddock, you should recuse yourself from this discussion immediately. You do have a car to power with your feet, don't you? Best work on those callouses.

[paulfv]

I tell you what, I'll save you guys the hassle of getting to know me and my writing. It'll save both of our time. I write, professionally, and I often post on the site sportsjournalists.com under the handle "Rokski," as well as under the handle "rokski2."

Here's the site's main forum link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

(BTW:I am in no way affiliated with sportsjournalists.com, so this isn't a plug for profit)


...and here's a link to my two profiles, which have 'post histories' (the link is 'show the last posts of this person') on each of them:

Rokski:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

rokski2:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


If you doubt my intelligence, ability to write, or how my writing stacks up against professional sports writers,' go to sportsjournalists.com and see for yourself. Don't take my word for it, read what the other posters say about me.

As I said, hopefully this will save all of our time in the future.

Peace. :good

[codeman99998]

No, you selectively took from my argument and omitted other unspoken premises, things such as "Prime Tyson was faster than both Rahman and Tua." I'd expect any knowledgable fan to understand that implicitly, but I forgot I have to write for both the rubes and the knowledgable fan. Point taken. Tyson hits harder than Rahman, who has proven he has enough power to 1-punch KO Lewis. Tua did not have enough speed (or conditioning) to overcome Prime "jab-and-grab" Lewis. Prime Tyson was both faster and had better conditioning and footwork than either Rahman or Tua. Etc., etc. Continue the reasoning and syllogisms-creation until you come to the conclusion I've arrived at.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about (syllogisms involving Tyson and Lewis):

P1- Rahman 1-punch-KO'd Lewis
P2- Prime Tyson hits harder than Rahman
-------------------------------------------------
C- Prime Tyson could 1-punch-KO Lewis

or:

P1- McCall 1-punch-TKO'd Lewis
P2- Prime Tyson hits at least as hard as McCall
----------------------------------------------------------
C - Prime Tyson could 1-punch-TKO Lewis


Thinking logically isn't difficult. That is, when you're used to doing it, and you don't have your "hugger" glasses on.

What's especially useful with Lewis is that his 1-punch KO/TKO defeats came at different ages (one at the age of 29, one at the age of 35), so the theory of his being 'past his prime' when he was 1-punch KO'd/TKO'd is out the window. You dont get much more prime than 29. His style changed after McCall, but his chin remained as shoddy as it started, as weak as was in his 'prime.'

How much remedial boxing instruction do you need, codeman, just so I know for future posts/articles? Can I assume you know what the different weight divisions are named, or will that, too, need to be explicitly stated?

Here's your first lesson: A "heavyweight," as that term is used in professional boxing involving a man fighting a man, is currently defined as someone who fights at a weight of 200+ lbs. That definition has changed over time. More can be learned here:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

No charge for my first lesson.

Woohoo!

Okay, first of all, just to get this out of the way, let us both concede that nothing that either of us says will change the other's view on this matter. It is clear that we both have our opinions on it, and that since we have arrived at those opinions using different methods, there is little reason to believe that one of us will be able to change the other's mind. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

Your logic is too simplistic, and it doesn't arrive at a definite conclusion anyways. Yes, Rahman KOd Lewis with one punch, but that merely proves that Tyson is CAPABLE of KOing Lewis with one punch. I think most people would concede that MOST very good heavyweights are physically capable of KOing most other HWs with one punch. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, and of course most fights do NOT end in one punch, but most hard hitting heavyweights always have what we call "A puncher's chance" if only because they are very large powerful professional boxers.

First, Lennox Lewis's chin is not glass. You can look at countless Lewis fights where he is hit clean by very hard punchers and not KOd. It's very easy to remember the times that he was, because those instances stand out far more clearly than the times that he wasn't. Watching him fight Klitschko, or Tua, or Briggs clearly demonstrates that there was PROBABLY some other variable in the mix for his McCall and Rahman KO losses. For Rahman, being on the movie set for as long as he was probably didn't help much, also there was the fact that Lewis was clearly underestimating Rahman, as demonstrated by the fact that he easily handled him in their rematch.

There is about a .1% chance that Lewis underestimates Tyson and comes in unprepared, showing off open for a perfect shot.

I tend to use former fights versus similar fighters as my primary basis for judging hypothetical head to head matchups. In this case, the BEST fight to look at, though it is certainly not definitive, is obviously their actual fight. The way Lewis absolutely dominated Tyson does not prove that it would be the same outcome in a prime for prime fight, but it does lend great evidence for it.

Other than that, the closest fighter to Tyson that Lewis fought was probably Tua. Tua landed clean quite a few times but was unable to hurt Lewis, Lewis beat Tua very convincingly.

With Tyson, and this may be a bit biased but I can't think of a better comparison off the top of my head, I tend to look at the Douglas fight.

Your logic isn't wrong, but I don't think the fact that Tyson COULD KO Lewis with one punch means that he WOULD KO Lewis with one punch more than 1 or 2 out of 10 times.

Tyson never beat, nor did anything that suggests he could beat, a fighter of Lennox Lewis' calibre, whereas Lennox has beaten great fighters before. This is a hugely important fact, one that I think overwhelms pretty much anything else. Couple that with the fact that Tyson lost badly to Lewis when they did fight outside of their primes, and the fact that looking at the stylistic matchup, when they fought similar fighters, Lewis won and Tyson lost, to me leads to only one logical conclusion.

Lennox Lewis KO 8-11.

[paulfv]

Tyson never beat, nor did anything that suggests he could beat, a fighter of Lennox Lewis' calibre
Spoken (actually, "spelled") as a true Brit/member of the UK. :)

At least you have a mind, and can see the validity and soundness of my conclusions.

We can agree to disagree. :)

[codeman99998]

Spoken (actually, "spelled") as a true Brit. :)

At least you have a mind, and can see the soundness and validity of my conclusions.

We can agree to disagree. :)

Actually, I am 100% American I just tend to spell it both ways.

Seriously.

And yes, on a personal level, we do agree to disagree, but FUCK YOU for insinuating that I have no idea what I am talking about and need a lesson on boxing history from your stupid ass. As if posting on some OTHER forum or writing for some OTHER site for no profit makes you Bert fucking Sugar. Go write a fucking book, asshole.

[lefthook31]

Actually, I am 100% American I just tend to spell it both ways.

Seriously.

And yes, on a personal level, we do agree to disagree, but FUCK YOU for insinuating that I have no idea what I am talking about and need a lesson on boxing history from your stupid ass. As if posting on some OTHER forum or writing for some OTHER site for no profit makes you Bert fucking Sugar. Go write a fucking book, asshole.

Bert sugar doesnt know shit about boxing.:yep

[codeman99998]

Bert sugar doesnt know shit about boxing.:yep

Hahaha, yes, I actually agree with you.

He was just the first, like, well known boxing historian I could think of.

[paulfv]

Actually, I am 100% American I just tend to spell it both ways.

Seriously.

And yes, on a personal level, we do agree to disagree, but FUCK YOU for insinuating that I have no idea what I am talking about and need a lesson on boxing history from your stupid ass. As if posting on some OTHER forum or writing for some OTHER site for no profit makes you Bert fucking Sugar. Go write a fucking book, asshole.


No, friend, f*ck you. You started the insinuation game, and I concluded it. Another axiom of boxing: "Don't stalk a puncher."

Don't make that mistake again, and you won't be typing-out meaningless "f*ck you's" which only expose your own insinuation-game attempts.

Save us both the hassle, please.

[paulfv]

Bert sugar doesnt know shit about boxing.:yep
He knows some, but not nearly as much as he thinks he does, IMO. But far more than many would-be 'historians' (yes, Max Kellerman, that list includes you).

Bert's a talker, which makes sense since he has a law degree. He's always been a good self-promoter.

Personally, I'm ok with him.

Oh, and I think he posts on the main forum sometimes.

[codeman99998]

He knows some, but not nearly as much as he thinks he does, IMO. But far more than many would-be 'historians' (yes, Max Kellerman, that list includes you).

Bert's a talker, which makes sense since he has a law degree. He's always been a good self-promoter.

Personally, I'm ok with him.

Oh, and I think he posts on the main forum sometimes.

Hey, master writer.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Read it. I never insinuated anything. I SAID it, you fucking moron.

[codeman99998]

No, friend, f*ck you. You started the insinuation game, and I concluded it. Another axiom of boxing: "Don't stalk a puncher."

Don't make that mistake again, and you won't be typing-out meaningless "f*ck you's" which only expose your own insinuation-game attempts.

Save us both the hassle, please.

Also, for the love of God, this is the internet alright. If you are too much of a pussy to type four letters in a row, by all means, say something else. Fitting in a little star in place of one of the letters just makes you look like a jackass.

[BigReg]

Here's another funny thing about Tyson threads. People always say his "prime" was from 86 to 88 or 89. They fail to mention that having a 2 to 3 year prime is pathetic, that Tyson beat up on mostly scrubs and decent fighters during this period, and that Tyson was only 23 years old in 1989. It's ridiculous. "Prime" unstoppable Tyson's best win was against a blown up LHW. The closest thing Tyson ever faced to Lewis during his prime was Buster Douglas. Oh wait I forget, Tyson was no longer in his "prime" when he fought Douglas at the age of 23.

[lefthook31]

Here's another funny thing about Tyson threads. People always say his "prime" was from 86 to 88 or 89. They fail to mention that having a 2 to 3 year prime is pathetic, that Tyson beat up on mostly scrubs and decent fighters during this period, and that Tyson was only 23 years old in 1989. It's ridiculous. "Prime" unstoppable Tyson's best win was against a blown up LHW. The closest thing Tyson ever faced to Lewis during his prime was Buster Douglas. Oh wait I forget, Tyson was no longer in his "prime" when he fought Douglas at the age of 23.

Tyson had close to 40 fights in that "pathetic" time period. Whats the difference of fighting 40 fights in 5 years or 40 fights in 10 years??

[Vanboxingfan]

Sure and that can be said for most fights between good champions that never happened. Did they have a chance to win, of course. We will never know because they never happened. The only way to evaluate them is how they faced similar competition stylistically. Tyson during his prime had a ton of speed and was a tremendous infighter. He showed the ability to avoid punches and work his way in against taller more mobile fighters. Lewis was never a good infighter, and I dont think Lewis style of grabbing on the inside would have done much good for him against a relentless Tyson. Lewis possessed a good jab, but that would not have been enough to keep Tyson in check. It took more than that, it took someone who could fight inside and more of a range of punches in their arsenal. Someone with a style like Buster Douglas. Bowe had a similar style to Douglas, but better. He was mean, he could fight like hell on the inside, and had an awesome jab. He would have had more chances against Tyson if his chin could stand up.
Holyfield on the other hand had the heart, and stamina, but I dont believe he would have been able to stand up to the punishment a prime Tyson would have dished out. Holyfield was much more of a brawler in his prime, and he showed his vulnerability when he brawled with guys like Bert Cooper, and George Foreman.
Tyson in his prime was a force, he didnt quit or give up, and showed a lot of heart. He would have been able to keep the pressure on Holyfield most likely wearing him down and stopping him mid to late rounds of their fight.
All specualtion, but my opinion. :good

I disagree with several points. First of all, I don't think Tyson was an incredibly good infighter..mid range yes. Speed, he had it in spades, combos, yup he was good, power, good but not as good as Lewis', but he makes up for it by throwing combos. Good head movement yup. but not a terribly great infighter.

Secondly I think Lewis is and always has been, significantly stronger than Tyson and would be able to tie him up in the clinches.

Thirdly, Lewis has an uppercut which dropped Grant like a tree, and hurt Tyson repeatedly when they fought. It was Tyson who was hurt in the first round of their fight, not Lewis, and it was due to uppercuts. Lewis' uppercut which would be his best weapon, isn't even mentioned in your analysis.

Personally, what I think would happen is that if Tyson came forward, Lewis would back up, throw over hand rights, then uppercuts and then tried to hold Tyson and lean on him. He would attempt to do this repeatedly, until this wore Tyson out. I'm not saying he could do it, I don't know, but he would try. He would also jab a lot and try to control the distance between the two of them. His power, might allow him to do this.

[paulfv]

*sigh*

This is my last response to you, codeman. At least regarding this topic and given your current "hissiness." I actually have work to get done.

#1 - I don't have to swear to make my points. That's part of what being a good writer/talker is. I don't mind swearing, but I don't have to swear.

#2 - You're missing my usage of the term "insinuate." I don't really feel the need to explain it to a guy who looked it up to try (unsuccessfully) to score a 'technical point' against me.

#3 - A pictorial representation of where we are now, as a forum community, vis-a-vis the relative arguments/writing/reasoning ability/lack-of-throwing "hissy fits" for paulfv 'vs' codeman:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
codeman, that's 'you' being waved over by the ref. And, as in the picture, the figurative ESB ref has waved over you to indicate he is stopping the 'contest' for your own good (and for the good of the community, and for the good of the 'victor's' time constraints). In the picture, 'I' am off-camera with arms held aloft over my headgear.

Peace, y'all, and I'm outta here! :good :thumbsup :good

[paulfv]

Tyson had close to 40 fights in that "pathetic" time period. Whats the difference of fighting 40 fights in 5 years or 40 fights in 10 years??

Ref, I see your services are needed again, to signal's lefthook's triumph. If you would...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Thanks, ref! :)

[Vanboxingfan]

Ref, I see your services are needed again, to signal's lefthook's triumph. If you would...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Thanks, ref! :)

..........

[TheGreat]

Here's another funny thing about Tyson threads. People always say his "prime" was from 86 to 88 or 89. They fail to mention that having a 2 to 3 year prime is pathetic, that Tyson beat up on mostly scrubs and decent fighters during this period, and that Tyson was only 23 years old in 1989. It's ridiculous. "Prime" unstoppable Tyson's best win was against a blown up LHW. The closest thing Tyson ever faced to Lewis during his prime was Buster Douglas. Oh wait I forget, Tyson was no longer in his "prime" when he fought Douglas at the age of 23.

Tyson beat alot of good fighters in his day they weren't great but they were good and Bruno . Holmes, Spinks and Tucker were better than Douglas and mike handled them, prime for prime its hard to pick a winner but when they fought every body saw a good version of Lewis against a shot version of Tyson.

[hobgoblin]

Lol Tyson got KTFO in his prime by Buster Douglas:lol:
Worse than that he got completely dominated and outboxed.
Tyson was exposed there is no basis to suggest Tyson could ever beat Lewis.

losing to the douglas of tokyo (who mind you, would have lost to most of the ATGs including lennox) is not nearly as much of a laughing matter as losing to mcall or rahman. douglas was legimately very talented, skilled, and accomplished (KO'd several guys with the jab). this was a near his prime mike tyson but i feel if he had better guidance (all this means is someone tells him to work the body rather than headhunt!) he wouldn't have lost that fight. you can talk about the losses after lewis but even the haters won't deny this wasn't even a shell of tyson. oh well. still, not a good topic to bring up - if you're a LEWIS fan.

[hobgoblin]

Prime Tyson who couldnt take out Smith, Ruddock, green, tucker........ oh yeah guys that were so much tougher than Lewis lol you

Lennox was an incomparably SUPERIOR fighter overall to those fighters, yes. But in terms of durability, he is right, those guys were better. Lewis is more durable than given credit for, his record shows, but those guys were granite chinned. Green & Tucker took beatings in those fights, ran, and survived to make Tyson work full time only because of GRANITE chin. Ruddock had amazing recuperative ability - something Lennox could have used in 2001. Do you realize this guy ALWAYS got up, ready to continue against guys like Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Smith, etc...! Lewis was NOT tougher than those guys - but he was obviously far GREATER.

And the source is?

Actually it was Tyson after his loss to Lewis who said he could never beat him. However, unlike you, I don't take this type of comment too seriously.

I appreciate your intelligence.

yes, because saying lewis and tyson deserve equal stick for their losses against rahman and douglas is sooooo crazy

but only one came back to avenge his defeat

it is crazy. douglas was much better than rahman or mccall.

also, tyson tried to rematch douglas who had become 400 lb in 1996 and got diabetes. I’m sure he’d wouldn’t have turned down a 30 million dollar payday if he was actually able to pass health tests.

Tyson himself said he was hurt in the first round by Lewis' uppercut.

Exactly because IMO washed up Tyson couldn't recover from a punch nearly as well as he did in his prime when he was young & healthy. In the latter case, Tyson would recover immediately like he did against Ruddock's uppercuts and hit right back at Lewis. True, Lewis' uppercut would be a key weapon against Tyson - I'm 50/50 about it being nearly as successful in this scenario as it was in 2002.

I don't think Tyson was the best insider fighter of all time.

He was one of the worst. He did ZILCH and waited for ref to break them up. Boring to watch in those cases. Sometimes, occasionally, he'd get an ounce of common sense and throw a punch.

Tyson may have been more explosive but I believe Lewis was significantly stronger than Tyson.

Ahh, but explosiveness & punching power can neutralize that! Not sure if Lewis was significantly stronger than Tyson. In 1984 sparring, Lewis expressed shock at how such a small man like Tyson was so strong. Remember, even McNeeley pushed back Tyson. It isn't because McNeeley was stronger - Tyson just allowed it for a similar unknown reason why he didn't do anything when clinched. Oh well pointless argument, for all the consequential reasons, Lewis would be the one pushing Tyson around - agreed. Although I haven't seen actual fight ina long time - Lewis was not inclined to do that - because it does leave you vulnerable when trying to push someone.

I think he'd be backiing up as Tyson comes in and throwing either uppercuts or his overhand right, then trying to tie Tyson up if Tyson did get through.

I'm curious to see if Lewis can deal with the speed at which Tyson comes in. I was SHOCKED to see Lewis do that in 2002 but then again, Tyson was much slower (so was Lewis but nearly as deteriorated as Tyson who at his best had blinding speed).

Prime Lewis was much faster than the older version.

Yes he was - not as fast as Tyson - but fast.

these are just my random thoughts -not necessarily conclusons.

[Vanboxingfan]

Lennox was an incomparably SUPERIOR fighter overall to those fighters, yes. But in terms of durability, he is right, those guys were better. Lewis is more durable than given credit for, his record shows, but those guys were granite chinned. Green & Tucker took beatings in those fights, ran, and survived to make Tyson work full time only because of GRANITE chin. Ruddock had amazing recuperative ability - something Lennox could have used in 2001. Do you realize this guy ALWAYS got up, ready to continue against guys like Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Smith, etc...! Lewis was NOT tougher than those guys - but he was obviously far GREATER.



I appreciate your intelligence.



it is crazy. douglas was much better than rahman or mccall.

also, tyson tried to rematch douglas who had become 400 lb in 1996 and got diabetes. I’m sure he’d wouldn’t have turned down a 30 million dollar payday if he was actually able to pass health tests.



Exactly because IMO washed up Tyson couldn't recover from a punch nearly as well as he did in his prime when he was young & healthy. In the latter case, Tyson would recover immediately like he did against Ruddock's uppercuts and hit right back at Lewis. True, Lewis' uppercut would be a key weapon against Tyson - I'm 50/50 about it being nearly as successful in this scenario as it was in 2002.



He was one of the worst. He did ZILCH and waited for ref to break them up. Boring to watch in those cases. Sometimes, occasionally, he'd get an ounce of common sense and throw a punch.



Ahh, but explosiveness & punching power can neutralize that! Not sure if Lewis was significantly stronger than Tyson. In 1984 sparring, Lewis expressed shock at how such a small man like Tyson was so strong. Remember, even McNeeley pushed back Tyson. It isn't because McNeeley was stronger - Tyson just allowed it for a similar unknown reason why he didn't do anything when clinched. Oh well pointless argument, for all the consequential reasons, Lewis would be the one pushing Tyson around - agreed. Although I haven't seen actual fight ina long time - Lewis was not inclined to do that - because it does leave you vulnerable when trying to push someone.



I'm curious to see if Lewis can deal with the speed at which Tyson comes in. I was SHOCKED to see Lewis do that in 2002 but then again, Tyson was much slower (so was Lewis but nearly as deteriorated as Tyson who at his best had blinding speed).



Yes he was - not as fast as Tyson - but fast.

these are just my random thoughts -not necessarily conclusons.

Very good post. The point of my post isn't to suggest Lewis would win, I honestly don't know who would win, but rather to suggest it could go either way and why Lewis has a reasonable chance of winning. Tyson's chances speak for themselves,

[Alo2006]

Tyson

[lefthook31]

I disagree with several points. First of all, I don't think Tyson was an incredibly good infighter..mid range yes. Speed, he had it in spades, combos, yup he was good, power, good but not as good as Lewis', but he makes up for it by throwing combos. Good head movement yup. but not a terribly great infighter.

Secondly I think Lewis is and always has been, significantly stronger than Tyson and would be able to tie him up in the clinches.

Thirdly, Lewis has an uppercut which dropped Grant like a tree, and hurt Tyson repeatedly when they fought. It was Tyson who was hurt in the first round of their fight, not Lewis, and it was due to uppercuts. Lewis' uppercut which would be his best weapon, isn't even mentioned in your analysis.

Personally, what I think would happen is that if Tyson came forward, Lewis would back up, throw over hand rights, then uppercuts and then tried to hold Tyson and lean on him. He would attempt to do this repeatedly, until this wore Tyson out. I'm not saying he could do it, I don't know, but he would try. He would also jab a lot and try to control the distance between the two of them. His power, might allow him to do this.

Tyson not a good infighter?? Are you kidding? 90% of his Ko's in his prime were from the inside. He had short stubby arms, and was able to get a lot of leverage on his punches on the inside. Tyson faced some really quick fighters that moved around well. He wouldnt have been hit as cleanly as he was when he fought Lewis far past his best. Tyson rarely took a clean shot during his prime because of his quickness and head movement. When he did, he showed a really good chin. A determined Tyson using his head movement and good jab to get inside would give Lewis a really tough time.
So many people only remember the Tyson that came out of prision who wasnt half the fighter he was in his title reign years, but back then Tyson was a complete fighter, with devastating power and speed, and when he hurt his opponent he finished them.
I remember the Lewis that was a fighter before the Mercer fight, and that lewis wouldnt have stood a chance against any version of Tyson. Lewis under Steward progressed as quickly as Tyson regressed once his team was no longer.

[Vanboxingfan]

I suggest you read Hobgoblin's posts, this pretty much mirrors my thoughts on his abilities. If someone held him, he wouldn't break free, he allowed himself to be punshed back pretty easily, etc. He was hell on wheel's trying to get inside, and he hurt people in the process, but he wasn't one to break free of a hold and start wailing away. And you still haven't addressed Lewis' upper cut. Nor Lewis' superior strength. Basically you've done a one sided analysis and then formed your opinion, which is no doubt carved in stone.

And I'm in my 40's, so not to worry, I've seen Tyson at his best, and at his best he was awesome, but I still don't buy into the myth that he was unbeatable. I believe that Ali, Lewis, perhaps Holyfield, Foreman and Liston, all could have potentially beaten him. Some would add Holmes to this list, but I don't think Holmes had the power. Basically you either have to be able to counter him, (Holyfield), outspeed and out think him (Ali), or hurt him (Foreman, Liston, Lewis). Lewis might also be able to control distance on him, which is a key component to beating him. I'm not saying these guys would beat him, but they would likely have the best chance.

[hobgoblin]

Tyson not a good infighter??
I love Tyson but he SUCKED as an infighter. A fighter could EASILY clinch him and then Tyson would do NOTHING but wait for the referee to break the two. Douglas beat Tyson BIG TIME on the inside (a good chunk of the reason for his success) just as much as he did on the outside. Watch the Tokyo fight again and see how many times Douglas lands 3 punch combinations on the inside. Same thing with Holyfield - Holyfield made it an INSIDE fight and absolutely SMOTHERED Tyson. A good infighter would have welcomed that but Tyson was terrible on the inside. At the least, he didn't have the common sense to ACTUALLY fight on the inside - Holy made it an inside game and Tyson showed success when he actually did SOMETHING on the inside in round 5. Tyson at his best was a MID RANGE fighter - this is where he got most of his KOs. SMITH made him passive. If Tyson was even a DECENT infighter - his chance of having lost to Doulgas & Holy would have decreased tremendously. Great midrange fighter - HORRIBLE inside fighter. He did NOTHING. He gets a 0, an F.

His POTENTIAL as infighter was COMPLETELY different. What he ACTUALLY did even at HIS BEST - was ZILCH. EVEN PETER MCNEELEY PUSHED HIM BACK! Was it because McNeeley was stronger? NO! Because Tyson did NOTHING.

[josak]

I love Tyson but he SUCKED as an infighter. A fighter could EASILY clinch him and then Tyson would do NOTHING but wait for the referee to break the two. Douglas beat Tyson BIG TIME on the inside (a good chunk of the reason for his success) just as much as he did on the outside. Watch the Tokyo fight again and see how many times Douglas lands 3 punch combinations on the inside. Same thing with Holyfield - Holyfield made it an INSIDE fight and absolutely SMOTHERED Tyson. A good infighter would have welcomed that but Tyson was terrible on the inside. At the least, he didn't have the common sense to ACTUALLY fight on the inside - Holy made it an inside game and Tyson showed success when he actually did SOMETHING on the inside in round 5. Tyson at his best was a MID RANGE fighter - this is where he got most of his KOs. SMITH made him passive. If Tyson was even a DECENT infighter - his chance of having lost to Doulgas & Holy would have decreased tremendously. Great midrange fighter - HORRIBLE inside fighter. He did NOTHING. He gets a 0, an F.

His POTENTIAL as infighter was COMPLETELY different. What he ACTUALLY did even at HIS BEST - was ZILCH. EVEN PETER MCNEELEY PUSHED HIM BACK! Was it because McNeeley was stronger? NO! Because Tyson did NOTHING.

What the hell r u talking about? Tyson knocked Mcneeley down in like 1.2 seconds of the first round ... yes, on inside. Tyson was a good inside fighter. Where do you think those body shots and uppercut came from? I can think of several of his KO's that were on the inside (Mathis, Ferguson, Berbick, etc).

[lefthook31]

Lennox was an incomparably SUPERIOR fighter overall to those fighters, yes. But in terms of durability, he is right, those guys were better. Lewis is more durable than given credit for, his record shows, but those guys were granite chinned. Green & Tucker took beatings in those fights, ran, and survived to make Tyson work full time only because of GRANITE chin. Ruddock had amazing recuperative ability - something Lennox could have used in 2001. Do you realize this guy ALWAYS got up, ready to continue against guys like Lewis, Tyson, Morrison, Smith, etc...! Lewis was NOT tougher than those guys - but he was obviously far GREATER.



I appreciate your intelligence.



it is crazy. douglas was much better than rahman or mccall.

also, tyson tried to rematch douglas who had become 400 lb in 1996 and got diabetes. I’m sure he’d wouldn’t have turned down a 30 million dollar payday if he was actually able to pass health tests.



Exactly because IMO washed up Tyson couldn't recover from a punch nearly as well as he did in his prime when he was young & healthy. In the latter case, Tyson would recover immediately like he did against Ruddock's uppercuts and hit right back at Lewis. True, Lewis' uppercut would be a key weapon against Tyson - I'm 50/50 about it being nearly as successful in this scenario as it was in 2002.



He was one of the worst. He did ZILCH and waited for ref to break them up. Boring to watch in those cases. Sometimes, occasionally, he'd get an ounce of common sense and throw a punch.



Ahh, but explosiveness & punching power can neutralize that! Not sure if Lewis was significantly stronger than Tyson. In 1984 sparring, Lewis expressed shock at how such a small man like Tyson was so strong. Remember, even McNeeley pushed back Tyson. It isn't because McNeeley was stronger - Tyson just allowed it for a similar unknown reason why he didn't do anything when clinched. Oh well pointless argument, for all the consequential reasons, Lewis would be the one pushing Tyson around - agreed. Although I haven't seen actual fight ina long time - Lewis was not inclined to do that - because it does leave you vulnerable when trying to push someone.



I'm curious to see if Lewis can deal with the speed at which Tyson comes in. I was SHOCKED to see Lewis do that in 2002 but then again, Tyson was much slower (so was Lewis but nearly as deteriorated as Tyson who at his best had blinding speed).



Yes he was - not as fast as Tyson - but fast.

these are just my random thoughts -not necessarily conclusons.

Just a few fights that come to mind, that show Tysons outstanding infighting ability, that come to mind. Maybe you can go back and watch Tyson earlier in his career against fighters like Berbick, Ribalta, Biggs, Holmes, Williams, Frazier, Bruno, and Tubbs and even Ruddock. I dont think you will ever say that Tyson was a bad infighter after watching them. Tyson had tendencies to slow down at times in fights on the inside, but his entire fighting style during a fight was being the shorter man forcing his way inside to land punches from the outside. It was a very intense tough fighting style.

[hobgoblin]

Just a few fights that come to mind, that show Tysons outstanding infighting ability, that come to mind. Maybe you can go back and watch Tyson earlier in his career against fighters like Berbick, Ribalta, Biggs, Holmes, Williams, Frazier, Bruno, and Tubbs and even Ruddock. I dont think you will ever say that Tyson was a bad infighter after watching them. Tyson had tendencies to slow down at times in fights on the inside, but his entire fighting style during a fight was being the shorter man forcing his way inside to land punches from the outside. It was a very intense tough fighting style.

Berbick: Most of the damage was done at midrange first - then when Berbick was beaten Tyson throws a left hook from close. Don't remember this fight that well but who can forget that memorable first knockdown where Tyson is charging from the outside and backing up Berbick.

Ribalta: I faintly remember this as a great Tyson performance.

Holmes: No, most of the work was done from midrange. See that first AWESOME knockdown - from midrange- he was excellent at attacking while coming in.

Frazier: Midrange - then the final seconds when Marvis is on the floor Tyson comes real close.

Bruno I: Only the finish was on the inside.

Ruddock: Agreed - except Ruddock was one of the dumbest boxers I've ever seen.

I like Tyson, he's in my top 10, but he never was a GOOD inside fighter. He had the potential to be the BEST inside fighter (best combination of speed, power, chin among all swarmers) but he neverl lived up to it.

If he was even GOOD - he would have been at least SOMEWHAT competitive on the INSIDE against Douglas & Holy (he was competitive overall but not on the inside). Sure he wasn't at his prime in those fights but he was comparable and far from shot. Why did he do zilch?

I don't mean to nag, this is my last post on the subject -this is my opinion. Tyson was a top 5 PUNCHER, top 10 fighter, but NOT a good inside fighter. Excellent midrange fighter.

[josak]

He was a good in-fighter, period. I have all of his fights. He could of did more at times, but to call him a bad infighter is simply a joke.

[trac209]

rahman ko'ed a prime lewis nuff said

[lefthook31]

it.

If he was even GOOD - he would have been at least SOMEWHAT competitive on the INSIDE against Douglas & Holy (he was competitive overall but not on the inside). Sure he wasn't at his prime in those fights but he was comparable and far from shot. Why did he do zilch?

Throw out the Holyfield fight, that was a post prision fight. Even so Tyson still managed to land a huge right left to the body that staggered Holy in the fifth. Probably his best rally in the entire fight.
As far as Douglas, he landed an uppercut in the 8th on the inside against the ropes that dropped Douglas, who almost didnt make the count, remember?

[barneyrub]

Tyson, Lewis talking about sparring together,

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[GazOC]

Tyson not a good infighter?? Are you kidding? 90% of his Ko's in his prime were from the inside. He had short stubby arms, and was able to get a lot of leverage on his punches on the inside. Tyson faced some really quick fighters that moved around well. He wouldnt have been hit as cleanly as he was when he fought Lewis far past his best. Tyson rarely took a clean shot during his prime because of his quickness and head movement. When he did, he showed a really good chin. A determined Tyson using his head movement and good jab to get inside would give Lewis a really tough time.
So many people only remember the Tyson that came out of prision who wasnt half the fighter he was in his title reign years, but back then Tyson was a complete fighter, with devastating power and speed, and when he hurt his opponent he finished them.
I remember the Lewis that was a fighter before the Mercer fight, and that lewis wouldnt have stood a chance against any version of Tyson. Lewis under Steward progressed as quickly as Tyson regressed once his team was no longer.

Ah, now I get the irrational Lewis hating in the other thread.....you're a Tyson fan..:lol:

[barneyrub]

rahman ko'ed a prime lewis nuff saidprime at 35 aye!!!!!! and at 30 pounds heavier than his best performance [Ruddock]
Being old, slower and heavier means he was physically not at his prime. Nuff said!

[lefthook31]

Ah, now I get the irrational Lewis hating in the other thread.....you're a Tyson fan..:lol:
Actually Im a fan of both. Hating or reality? Or something you dont like to hear? It humors me the majority of people who judge Tyson's career, never even watched him during the 80's. The same can be said for Lewis in the early 90's. Its about putting the fighters in the proper perspective during their respective careers.

[lefthook31]

prime at 35 aye!!!!!! and at 30 pounds heavier than his best performance [Ruddock]
Being old, slower and heavier means he was physically not at his prime. Nuff said!

Why was Ruddock his best performance. Ruddock went onto to accomplish nothing after his beatings by Tyson. He was ko'd by Lewis, ko'd by Morrison, and fell off the map.
Lewis himself will tell you that he came into his prime far later than most fighters, and it all started for him after the Mercer fight, far from his win over Ruddock. Until then, he was very inconsistent, against the upper echelon of the division. Losing to Mcall, getting badly hurt by Bruno. Lewis became a real fighter after the Mercer fight, and he suffered his worst defeat in his prime against Rahman.

[Fighting Weight]

Why was Ruddock his best performance. Ruddock went onto to accomplish nothing after his beatings by Tyson. He was ko'd by Lewis, ko'd by Morrison, and fell off the map.
Lewis himself will tell you that he came into his prime far later than most fighters, and it all started for him after the Mercer fight, far from his win over Ruddock. Until then, he was very inconsistent, against the upper echelon of the division. Losing to Mcall, getting badly hurt by Bruno. Lewis became a real fighter after the Mercer fight, and he suffered his worst defeat in his prime against Rahman.

Only a moron would suggest Lewis was in his prime V Rahman. Congratulations, moron :good

[BobDigi5060]

Congratulations, moron :good

:lol: Lewis 5 times outta 8.

[lefthook31]

Only a moron would suggest Lewis was in his prime V Rahman. Congratulations, moron :good

I love guys like you who offer nothing but stupidity to back up their feelings. How about making some vaild points about boxing you schmuck.

[GazOC]

Actually Im a fan of both. Hating or reality? Or something you dont like to hear? It humors me the majority of people who judge Tyson's career, never even watched him during the 80's. The same can be said for Lewis in the early 90's. Its about putting the fighters in the proper perspective during their respective careers.

Beware of using hindsight though...whether you admit it or not you were wrong on the Grant/ Ruiz/ Byrd thing......

[lefthook31]

This was Lewis' prime. If it wasnt he sure didnt do much in his other prime. :lol:

2002-06-08 ([Only registered and activated users can see links])249¼Mike Tyson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23449-3-0The Pyramid, Memphis, Tennessee, United StatesWKO812~ time: 2:25 | referee: Eddie Cotton | judge: Alfred Buqwana | judge: Anek Hongtongkam | judge: Bob Logist ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
Lewis vacated the IBF title after this fight
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])246½Hasim Rahman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23635-2-0Mandalay Bay, Las Vegas, Nevada, United StatesWKO412~ time: 1:29 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 30-27 | judge: Dave Moretti 30-27 | judge: Dalby Shirley 30-27 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])253½Hasim Rahman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23834-2-0Carnival City, Brakpan, Gauteng, South AfricaLKO512~ time: 2:32 | referee: Daniel Van de Wiele | judge: Dave Parris 39-37 | judge: Valerie Dorsett 39-37 | judge: Thabo Spampool 39-37 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
2001 Upset of the Year - Ring Magazine
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])249David Tua ([Only registered and activated users can see links])24537-1-0Mandalay Bay, Las Vegas, Nevada, United StatesWUD1212~ referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Jerry Roth 117-111 | judge: Dave Moretti 119-109 | judge: Chuck Giampa 118-110 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])250Francois Botha ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23740-2-1New London Arena, Millwall, London, United KingdomWTKO212~ time: 2:39 | referee: Larry O'Connell | judge: Chuck Williams 10-9 | judge: Roy Francis 10-9 | judge: Al Bennett 10-9 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])247Michael Grant ([Only registered and activated users can see links])25031-0-0Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, United StatesWKO212~ time: 2:53 | referee: Arthur Mercante Jr. | judge: Melvina Lathan 10-7 | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 10-6 | judge: Steve Weisfeld 10-6 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ IBO heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])242Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])21736-3-1Thomas & Mack Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, United StatesWUD1212~ referee: Mitch Halpern | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Bill Graham 117-111 | judge: Jerry Roth 115-113 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
~ vacant IBO heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])245Evander Holyfield ([Only registered and activated users can see links])21536-3-0Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, United StatesDPTS1212~ referee: Arthur Mercante Jr. | judge: Stanley Christodoulou 116-113 | judge: Eugenia Williams 113-115 | judge: Larry O'Connell 115-115 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])243Zeljko Mavrovic ([Only registered and activated users can see links])21427-0-0Mohegan Sun Casino, Uncasville, Connecticut, United StatesWUD1212~ referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 119-109 | judge: Bob Logist 117-112 | judge: Franco Ciminale 117-111 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])243Shannon Briggs ([Only registered and activated users can see links])22830-1-0Boardwalk Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, United StatesWTKO512~ time: 1:45 | referee: Frank Cappuccino ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
Briggs down 3 times.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])244Andrew Golota ([Only registered and activated users can see links])24428-2-0Caesars Hotel & Casino, Atlantic City, New Jersey, United StatesWKO112~ time: 1:35 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Marty Denkin | judge: Chuck Hassett | judge: Barbara Perez ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])242Henry Akinwande ([Only registered and activated users can see links])237½32-0-1Caesars Tahoe, Stateline, Nevada, United StatesWDQ512~ time: 2:34 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Terry Smith 40-35 | judge: Larry O'Connell 40-35 | judge: Dalby Shirley 38-37 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])241Oliver McCall ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23728-6-0Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada, United StatesWTKO512~ time: 0:55 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 40-36 | judge: Larry O'Connell 39-36 | judge: Dalby Shirley 40-35 ~
~ vacant WBC heavyweight title ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])247Ray Mercer ([Only registered and activated users can see links])23823-3-1Madison Square Garden, New York City, New York, United StatesWMD1010~ referee: Arthur Mercante Jr. | judge: George Colon 96-94 | judge: Luis Rivera 96-95 | judge: Melvina Lathan 95-95 ~
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])241Tommy Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links])22745-2-1Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, United StatesWTKO612

[lefthook31]

Beware of using hindsight though...whether you admit it or not you were wrong on the Grant/ Ruiz/ Byrd thing......

Look,,,, at that point, Don King was feuding with HBO and was putting all his fights over on Showtime. He quickly swept up most of the contenders and fighters that were close enough to title shots. In fact King was responsible for sending the call girl that ultimately sent Ibeabuchi to prision during the time he stole Ibeabuchi away from Cedric Kushner.
HBO was trying to get away from King because they were tired of him calling the shots. So what did HBO do?? Just like a promoter, they promoted and moved their fighter, Grant, into a position where he was perceived to be the next threat to Lewis. Boxing "people" knew that Grant started boxing very late, and had little experience as an amatuer and as a pro, but he became a product of the HBO hype machine.
So my point is, yes maybe the general public and even some of the boxing scribes bought into Grant, but he never really proved himself ready for the task. The exact same thing happend with the Klitschkos. They were annoited heir apparents before they even proved themselves.
Same goes for Tyson when he got out of prision. His gut wasnt checked until he fought Holyfield. I remember saying to myself, now we'll see what Tyson has left when they made the Holyfield fight.

[GazOC]

I don't want to go round in circles on this again. We'll just have to agree to disagree....

[lefthook31]

I don't want to go round in circles on this again. We'll just have to agree to disagree....

Fair enough... This is a boxing message board where people discuss their opinions. Some people take it way to serious.

[GazOC]

Fair enough... This is a boxing message board where people discuss their opinions. Some people take it way to serious.


Deal!:good

[codeman99998]

Actually Im a fan of both. Hating or reality? Or something you dont like to hear? It humors me the majority of people who judge Tyson's career, never even watched him during the 80's. The same can be said for Lewis in the early 90's. Its about putting the fighters in the proper perspective during their respective careers.

Not watching Tyson's fights could actually be helpful in this argument? How does that make any sense?

Well, because when Tyson fought shitty shitty fighters, he beat them in extremely impressive fashion. Everyone who watched boxing in the 80s busted a nut watching Tyson KO B class fighters day in and day out.

BTW, I have seen his fights, but not live, back in the 80s.

[BoxingGuru]

Come on. Quick Tillis almost had Tyson figured out and gave him all he could handle. You don't think Lewis would destroy him?

[LukeO]

Tyson... duh? Lewis even said tyson was 13 years past his prime when they fought.

[hobgoblin]

Come on. Quick Tillis almost had Tyson figured out and gave him all he could handle. You don't think Lewis would destroy him?

Such nonsense. Tyson won that fight easily & dominantly. He was having fun in there. It was just a full night's work but an easy shift nevertheless. Some of the "success" that Tyson's opponents had is grossly exaggerated in an attempt to avoid giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[ripcity]

My pick is Lewis but he would have to be the most focused person in the history of the world for 36 minuets. Tyson in his prime needed only the smallest of openings to take advantage of and end the fight. Tyson in his prime would be dangres for any heaveyweight. Lewis would have to jab and move also on ocision fire his stright right, and if Tyson got in close where he could hurt Lewis he would have to tie him up. It would be unwise for Lewis to go toe to toe with Tyson and I beleve that he is smart enough to do anything in his power ot avoide going toe to toe with Tyson. I like this match up because Lewis is my #1 head to head prime heaveyweight and Tyson is my #2. Most of the drama in this fight will come from seeing if tyson can get on the inside and land big shots and get a ko.

[lefthook31]

Not watching Tyson's fights could actually be helpful in this argument? How does that make any sense?

Well, because when Tyson fought shitty shitty fighters, he beat them in extremely impressive fashion. Everyone who watched boxing in the 80s busted a nut watching Tyson KO B class fighters day in and day out.

BTW, I have seen his fights, but not live, back in the 80s.
Ignorance

[2ironmt]

Anyone who thinks Tyson easily wins this is stupid.

Seriously.

If you think that you are stupid. Fucking stupid.

People who think it's a tough fight, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, Lewis KO 8-11. People who claim Tyson only has a punchers chance, etc are more stupid. Tyson circa 1988 has every advantage (power, chin, speed, skill, defense although some areas are very close) except size on any version of Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

People who claim Tyson only has a punchers chance, etc are more stupid. Tyson circa 1988 has every advantage (power, chin, speed, skill, defense although some areas are very close) except size on any version of Lewis.

I'd dispute that Tyson had more power, and skills than Lewis.

In my opinion Lewis has more one punch power, Tyson had more power simply because he threw combinations. Strength and reach would also hugely favour Lewis. And these three attributes, may allow Lewis to keep Tyson on the outside for most of the fight, as when Tyson did try and come in he might be eating overhand rights and wicked uppercuts.
But certainly if Tyson could get in and find a home for his combinations he would likely get to Lewis at some point. I just don't expect Lewis to just sit there and let it happen.

[ChampionsForever]

Tyson by KO, no doubt in my mind.

[Vanboxingfan]

Tyson by KO, no doubt in my mind.

Very insightful!

[nick wells jr]

Tyson... duh? Lewis even said tyson was 13 years past his prime when they fought.
so this means lewis would only fight tyson 13 yrs removed from his prime.

[Shareef]

I would pick Iron Mike either by mid round stoppage or UD. Lennox fougth a shot version of Mike who in know way resembled the version who terrorized the 80's. In his prime Tyson had awesome ko power combined with his speed, combination punching, headmovement and desire. Suppose Lewis fought the 88 version of Tyson hypothetically speaking. The fight would be much different than the fight that happened in 2002. Back in his prime Tyson had good head movement and punching in combinations, he also had a good jab to work his way. In later years Tyson became a head hunter who looked for one shot to ko his opponents and his head movement had detrioted greatly.

I would predict that a prime for prime fight would go like this. Tyson would come out fast Lewis would be on the defensive trying to keep his distance and clinching when Tyson gets close. Tyson would be winning most of the rounds mainly due to his aggression. Lennox would feel the power and find Tyson hard to tag cleanly with a big shot that he would fight very defensively. Tyson himself prolly wouldn't be landing huge punch after punch himself. Unless Tyson really was getting some quality body work in which slowed Lewis down therefore enabling Tyson to land wicked shots to his head (Pinklon Thomas Style) i doubt Lewis would get stopped. Lewis would have to catch Tyson with a big shot which makes Tyson respect him and after that get aggressive with Tyson but in doing so he might also leave himself exposed. I see Tyson winning a UD in a fight that woudn't be that spectacular and Larry Merchant would be bitching about a superfight that had more hype than fight.

[BoxingGuru]

Such nonsense. Tyson won that fight easily & dominantly. He was having fun in there. It was just a full night's work but an easy shift nevertheless. Some of the "success" that Tyson's opponents had is grossly exaggerated in an attempt to avoid giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Actually watch the fight sober. He was getting jabbed all night long by a horrible fighter. Tillis put together a plan that Douglas and Holyfield executed PERFECTLY.

[lefthook31]

The best punch Tillis landed was the last second of the fight. It was too late though. Funny if Tyson didnt knock someone out and won a UD, he struggled with someone.

[McGrain]

He was a good in-fighter, period. I have all of his fights. He could of did more at times, but to call him a bad infighter is simply a joke.


He could be handled inside. Especially by a big strong guy like Lewis, who happens to be a world class defencive in-fighter.

[anut]

look at thye problems mercer gave lewis....and mercer was up too 236 lbs......tyson at his peak was much harder to hit than mercer.....mercer dogged the last couple of rds and thats why he lost too lewis.......well tyson would make lewis work much harder than mercer....and when pinned against the ropes tyson wouldnt let lewis off the hook like mercer did.........i think tyson would stop lewis by the 7th or 8th rd....with lewis maybe winning the 1st round....what happened in 2002....should have happened in 92.......:smoke:smoke:smoke

[lefthook31]

look at thye problems mercer gave lewis....and mercer was up too 236 lbs......tyson at his peak was much harder to hit than mercer.....mercer dogged the last couple of rds and thats why he lost too lewis.......well tyson would make lewis work much harder than mercer....and when pinned against the ropes tyson wouldnt let lewis off the hook like mercer did.........i think tyson would stop lewis by the 7th or 8th rd....with lewis maybe winning the 1st round....what happened in 2002....should have happened in 92.......:smoke:smoke:smoke

I dont think that was the best of Lewis. It was his second or third fight with Emanuel Steward, and his first real gut check type fight. That was the beginning of what Emanuel Steward polished Lewis into, but first Steward wanted to see how much heart Lewis had and it showed in that fight. Lewis could never fight inside and Mercer was getting the better of him, but Steward taught Lewis how to shut his opponent down once on the inside by tieing up. I dont think that version of Lewis would have stood any chance against a prime Tyson, but that was probably two years from Lewis's best.

[TIGEREDGE]

TYSON GO KO'D BY HOLYFILED AND DOUGLAS BECAUSE HE WAS TIRED AND OUT OF SHAPE. he took a beating before he went down. He was like a human punch bag for them

Lewis got ko's with the first good punch he took from mccall and rahman. different KO'S

Anybody who doubts TYSON'S HEART AND CHIN SHOULD WATCH THE RUDDOCK FIGHTS IS WELL AS THE LEWIS AND ABOVE FIGHTS.

He Had the character when he was in the mood and in shape

TYSON KO 10 (if in a good state of mind

Lewis W12 (if tyson was in a bad mood)

[TIGEREDGE]

People who claim Tyson only has a punchers chance, etc are more stupid. Tyson circa 1988 has every advantage (power, chin, speed, skill, defense although some areas are very close) except size on any version of Lewis.

GREAT GREAT STATEMENT. he could box. he had so much speed and power, he didn't need to box a lot of the time

Lewis would own him in the jab department becuase of his size

i WOULD DESCRIBE prime Tyson not as slugger, but a very powerful attacking boxer/puncher