Was Holyfield vs Bowe I an example of ...

[ChrisPontius]

A good big man beating a good smaller man?

The commentators, including the experienced Larry Merchant, thought so.

Now i'm not saying Holyfield couldn't beat Bowe because of the size difference. It was clear that Holyfield consistently got the better of Bowe from the outside, jabbing, during the first round of their first fight, during most of the second fight (which is how he won) and during the first three or so rounds of their third match.

What i noticed in Bowe-Holyfield I is that Holyfield outlanded and outboxed Bowe early. Then he got lured into a close-range brawl and he was still landing far more than Bowe. However, as soon as the 4th or 5th round, it was painfully evident that Holyfield was much more tired and busted while Bowe was relatively fresh, despite the fact that Holyfield outlanded him by quite a margin. Seeing that fight, i tend to think Holyfield was simply too small to brawl with Bowe despite Holyfields great chin.

[ironchamp]

I agree.....

I'm not one to say that a good big man always beats a good small man but this was clearly a case of it. Evander's inability to overcome Riddicks size and strength was a major factor although I should add much of it had to with Riddicks ability

[jackiebrown]

it didnt hurt bowe that holy didnt have the fire power to dent him either ..

[NickHudson]

I also agree, and I think Bowe Holy I would be the result for poor old Evander versus many 'natural' gifted heavies...

If your opponent is talented and determined, but has the natural frame and musculature of a heavy (but you are not) then you are bound to be pushing shit uphill. It is a measure of Evan Fields determination coupled with some unmotivated opposition that lead to some of his success, IMO.

His signature wins (Dokes, Bowe II, Tyson I, Lewis II (?)) required a huge amount of drive, a very well thought out gameplan, bags of heart AND an opponent who was a bit off - and even then they were close calls).

[Marciano Frazier]

A good big man beating a good smaller man?

The commentators, including the experienced Larry Merchant, thought so.

Now i'm not saying Holyfield couldn't beat Bowe because of the size difference. It was clear that Holyfield consistently got the better of Bowe from the outside, jabbing, during the first round of their first fight, during most of the second fight (which is how he won) and during the first three or so rounds of their third match.

What i noticed in Bowe-Holyfield I is that Holyfield outlanded and outboxed Bowe early. Then he got lured into a close-range brawl and he was still landing far more than Bowe. However, as soon as the 4th or 5th round, it was painfully evident that Holyfield was much more tired and busted while Bowe was relatively fresh, despite the fact that Holyfield outlanded him by quite a margin. Seeing that fight, i tend to think Holyfield was simply too small to brawl with Bowe despite Holyfields great chin. I think "too small" is an oversimplification. He was smaller, and he didn't really have the punch or stamina(as a heavyweight) to break down Bowe in a slugfest. Holyfield had great 15-round stamina in his cruiserweight days, but after gaining all that body-builder-like and possibly steroid-induced muscle to get up past 205, he never had that kind of endurance again. He also didn't have quite enough pop to really be a monstrous threat at heavyweight.

In other words, Holyfield's combination of a lack of top size, power and stamina at heavyweight led to his failure to prevail against Bowe in a slugfest, not just the first one. A small man with more long-term endurance and a bigger punch could have outslugged Bowe, in my opinion.

[ChrisPontius]

I think "too small" is an oversimplification. He was smaller, and he didn't really have the punch or stamina(as a heavyweight) to break down Bowe in a slugfest. Holyfield had great 15-round stamina in his cruiserweight days, but after gaining all that body-builder-like and possibly steroid-induced muscle to get up past 205, he never had that kind of endurance again. He also didn't have quite enough pop to really be a monstrous threat at heavyweight.

In other words, Holyfield's combination of a lack of top size, power and stamina at heavyweight led to his failure to prevail against Bowe in a slugfest, not just the first one. A small man with more long-term endurance and a bigger punch could have outslugged Bowe, in my opinion.

Disagree.

Especially on the stamina part.
Holyfield had no problem throwing a lot of punches over 12 rounds against Dokes, Thomas, old Holmes & Foreman. He busted them all up with no signs of stamina problems. Against Bowe he was tired as early as round 5 while his conditioning was as good as identical as against the former mentioned.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Holyfield's conditioning going into the first Bowe fight. You make a good point about Holyfield lacking power but Bowe wasn't really a power puncher either, more a wear you down guy.


When he gained even more muscle later, his stamina did seem to suffer quite a bit, although he did seem to add a bit more power.


By the way - which smaller man do you think could've outslugged Bowe? Dempsey, Frazier?

[Muchmoore]

Disagree.

By the way - which smaller man do you think could've outslugged Bowe? Dempsey, Frazier?

Tyson would outslug Bowe fairly easily. Frazier and Dempsey could of as well.

[ChrisPontius]

Agreed on Tyson, although he was naturally around 215lb, Holyfield had to bulk up to 205lb.

[Hitman]

I was worried about that fight for Holy going in ,because I had just watched Holyfield on Arsenio Hall a few weeks before the fight and bragging that he would stop Bowe in 6. Now ...I don't know about you guys...but it shocked me how overconfident bordering on arragants Evander was...it put up red flag with me right away and made think about what kind of time he put in the gym. It was so out of charactor to see Holy act that way before a fight because he wasn't the type of fighter to brag before fights. I soon learned right after that , that Bowe was his sparring partner yrs before and that Holy usually controlled Bowe during sparring sessions.The rest was history and it was evident that Holy totally miscalculated Bowe from the outset and that even Duva,Benten and others in Holy's camp had problems getting him into the gym for that fight. I still feel that if Holy prepared properly for that fight ...he would have took care of Bowe in a fight for the ages.

[bigG]

holyfields game plan of hit and move went out the window as soon as he got tagged..then it became a fight that suited the bigger, brawling, infighting style of bowe as vandrs heart and stubborness drew him into a brawl ....one of the finest h/w fights you will ever see..in fact, as a trilogy, pretty hard to beat...

[AnthonyJ74]

I think "too small" is an oversimplification. He was smaller, and he didn't really have the punch or stamina(as a heavyweight) to break down Bowe in a slugfest. Holyfield had great 15-round stamina in his cruiserweight days, but after gaining all that body-builder-like and possibly steroid-induced muscle to get up past 205, he never had that kind of endurance again. He also didn't have quite enough pop to really be a monstrous threat at heavyweight.

In other words, Holyfield's combination of a lack of top size, power and stamina at heavyweight led to his failure to prevail against Bowe in a slugfest, not just the first one. A small man with more long-term endurance and a bigger punch could have outslugged Bowe, in my opinion.

I'm not so sure that I would consider Evander Holyfield underpowered. He did manage to hurt George Foreman badly on a few occasions during their fight, and he dropped and seriously hurt Riddick Bowe in their third fight. I wouldn't consider Evander a great puncher, but I think he hit harder than alot of heavyweights.

[Marciano Frazier]

Disagree.

Especially on the stamina part.
Holyfield had no problem throwing a lot of punches over 12 rounds against Dokes, Thomas, old Holmes & Foreman. He busted them all up with no signs of stamina problems.
No, actually, watch again- Holyfield is dead tired in the late rounds of most of these fights, although his heart sometimes masks it. For example, watch late in the 12th round against Foreman- Holyfield is heaving for breath at times and at one point late in the round he grabs hold of Foreman and refuses to let go for several seconds despite the ref's repeated attempts to separate them(not an exaggeration- watch the film). This is a far cry from the Holyfield who fought an action-packed 15 rounds without slowing down against Qawi. Holyfield still had GOOD stamina in his early heavyweight fights, but he definitely no longer had GREAT stamina. It was better than your average contender's, but clearly worse than someone like Jeffries, Marciano or Frazier's, or even Ali or Holmes'.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Holyfield's conditioning going into the first Bowe fight.
Nothing wrong with his conditioning in that he had trained hard like he always did, but again, when you gain 20 pounds of muscle mass, it weighs down on you. Why do you think the greatest long-distance endurance fighters, the guys who could fight an unusually fast pace for 15 rounds without taking a break(Marciano, Armstrong, Greb, Frazier), were all of the lighter-and-wirier as opposed to bulky-muscular variety? Holyfield used to be able to fight like that, when he was built more like those guys, but the added muscle mass was a hindrance to his endurance and it was never the way it had been against Qawi again.

You make a good point about Holyfield lacking power but Bowe wasn't really a power puncher either, more a wear you down guy.
Bowe wasn't what you'd call a monstrous puncher, but he was only a tier or so below that level, definitely more of a power puncher than Holyfield. Moreover, this is a little beside the point- it wasn't about Bowe and Holyfield's respective punching power, but whether a smaller guy who had more power than Holyfield could have outslugged Bowe. Holyfield had Bowe hurt badly at least once or twice and had him down and nearly out in the third fight, so I don't think the prospects of such an idea are too bad.


By the way - which smaller man do you think could've outslugged Bowe? Dempsey, Frazier?
Both of those guys, Marciano, and possibly someone like a Tom Sharkey or Langford.

[ChrisPontius]

No, actually, watch again- Holyfield is dead tired in the late rounds of most of these fights, although his heart sometimes masks it. For example, watch late in the 12th round against Foreman- Holyfield is heaving for breath at times and at one point late in the round he grabs hold of Foreman and refuses to let go for several seconds despite the ref's repeated attempts to separate them(not an exaggeration- watch the film). This is a far cry from the Holyfield who fought an action-packed 15 rounds without slowing down against Qawi. Holyfield still had GOOD stamina in his early heavyweight fights, but he definitely no longer had GREAT stamina. It was better than your average contender's, but clearly worse than someone like Jeffries, Marciano or Frazier's, or even Ali or Holmes'.


Nothing wrong with his conditioning in that he had trained hard like he always did, but again, when you gain 20 pounds of muscle mass, it weighs down on you. Why do you think the greatest long-distance endurance fighters, the guys who could fight an unusually fast pace for 15 rounds without taking a break(Marciano, Armstrong, Greb, Frazier), were all of the lighter-and-wirier as opposed to bulky-muscular variety? Holyfield used to be able to fight like that, when he was built more like those guys, but the added muscle mass was a hindrance to his endurance and it was never the way it had been against Qawi again.


Bowe wasn't what you'd call a monstrous puncher, but he was only a tier or so below that level, definitely more of a power puncher than Holyfield. Moreover, this is a little beside the point- it wasn't about Bowe and Holyfield's respective punching power, but whether a smaller guy who had more power than Holyfield could have outslugged Bowe. Holyfield had Bowe hurt badly at least once or twice and had him down and nearly out in the third fight, so I don't think the prospects of such an idea are too bad.



Both of those guys, Marciano, and possibly someone like a Tom Sharkey or Langford.


So in fact you do think Holyfield was too small. Because you think the bulking up hurt his stamina too much, i.e. he should've been naturally that big so as to retain stamina at that weight.

And yes, of course he was tired at the end of the Foreman fight; who wants to end a fight while still having gas in the tank, that would be a waste. On top of that, Foreman was a huge 6'4 259 pound man. While he didn't apply that much pressure because of age, it's still tiring to pound an immovable object. Nethertheless, stamina did not become a limiting factor on Holyfield as he thoroughly dominated Foreman (and Thomas, Dokes and Holmes for that matter).


And you say Holyfield lacked the power.

But what if the Holyfield from the Qawi fight shows up - yes he has better stamina, but his power is even less than the 205lb version. I see Bowe simply walking through whatever Holyfield has to offer even easier than he did in reality. On top of that, Holyfield would have a full 50lb to give up; that definitly drains energy.

It's easy to fight hard for 15 rounds and throw many punches against someone who is 5'9 187lb. Yes he could do that at that weight. But i think it's naive to think he could simply do the same when having a 50 pound weight disadvantage. If you've ever boxed yourself then you will have noted that one of the most difficult things about fighting bigger guys is saving your energy. The fact that you have to spend so much time on getting in and out, defense, the easiness by which you are pushed around, the heavyness of even shots that you block, etc. I think a 188lb Holyfield would've lost even more decisive because he would be busted up worse, able to take the punches less well and not able to faze Bowe at all.



I could see Frazier busting Bowe up late but it would be very hard considering Bowe's excellent infighting skills and size. I wouldn't consider a Bowe win a big upset.

Dempsey and Marciano, they never fought someone as big and skilled as Bowe. Would their stamina hold up when they're facing a 6'5 235lb man who throws 50-60 punches a round?

Willard was hopelessly skillless, a white hope who dethroned a fat, old and unfocused Johnson not on boxing skill but because he could take the punishement and not tire as much, a bit like Holyfield vs Bowe although Johnson's age had a lot to do with it. He was 37 and overweight against Dempsey.

Sharkey and Langford i've not seen decent film on so i cannot judge that.

[DamonD]

it didnt hurt bowe that holy didnt have the fire power to dent him either ..
I do think the extra 10 pounds he stuck on after Bowe I directly improved his power, which came as a nasty surprise to Bowe in their other two fights. Personally I've always felt that the '93 Holyfield of Bowe II was his peak as a heavyweight.

[fists of fury]

This is an interesting thread.

I'm going on memory here, so please forgive any mistakes...

Holy initially weighed 202 for his heavyweight debut, and won the title at 208.
He pretty much stayed at 208 except for the Bowe fight, where he was 205. I remember it being said that Holyfield came in slightly lighter in an effort to outspeed Bowe.
The plan fell to pieces when Holyfield neglected the gameplan and brawled. As with everyone else, I noticed Evander had a serious problem putting the hurt on Bowe, who basically ground Holyfield down.
Basically, the difference in power was the big decider in the fight.

On the face of it, one could logically assume a good big man just beat a good little man. Had they never fought again, I would have continued to believe that.

However, in the rematch Evander had Bowe hurt on several occasions. In that fight Holyfield weighed 214. That's an additional 9 lbs of muscle, but should only 9 lbs. have made that big a difference to Evander's ability to hurt Bowe? (Who incidentally was 11 lbs. heavier himself)
I'm not so sure...

I'm not saying that size had nothing to do with the result in Bowe-Holy 1, but I tend to think other factors, in addition to the size issue, led to Evander's eventual downfall here. Maybe he slightly overtrained to come in lighter than normal?

Holyfield was always a very chiseled athlete who carried minimal bodyfat. In a fast-paced action bout like their first fight, he was probably burning muscle for energy as opposed to bodyfat. That would have a big impact on stamina and overall recovery.

[Ted Spoon]

Holyfield came into the second fight with the right fight plan and necessary bulk, but the outcome of the series relied far more on Bowe than Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe came into the first fight at a solid 230lbs with ambition, a plan and sharpness. Evander would probably never have beaten the Bowe of the first fight. When Holyfield had real success in the slugfest it was more a case of Bowe being comfortable there, knowing he would get the last say.

The first fight was not close, Bowe gave Holyfield a battering.

Come the second fight and Bowe's lazy habits where for all to see on the scales and in his appearance. Even still, that fight was very close with Bowe fighting sluggishly, and Holyfield arguably being cut a break with the 'fan-man' just when Bowe seemed to be finding his foothold.

A super entertaining heavyweight trilogy, but it was more a case of Bowe having the power to prevent Holyfield from having any real success rather than vice versa.

[janitor]

A good big man beating a good smaller man?

The commentators, including the experienced Larry Merchant, thought so.


I think it was a combination of factors-

Stupid fight plan on Holyfields part.

Bad stylistic match up

And as you say size disparity

It is worth noting however that Hollyfield was never really a puncher so he lacked perhaps the most crucial equalizer for a smaller man taking on a bigger man. It would be interesting to see how Bowe would faer against a Dempsey, Louis or Tyson by contrast.

[Cojimar 1945]

A much older Holyfield was able to last the distance against Lennox Lewis who is as big as Bowe and regarded as a better puncher so it seems odd he would have trouble with the less powerful Bowe. Something aside from size and strength must have been an issue.

[Mendoza]

I think it was a combination of factors-

Stupid fight plan on Holyfields part.

Bad stylistic match up

And as you say size disparity

It is worth noting however that Hollyfield was never really a puncher so he lacked perhaps the most crucial equalizer for a smaller man taking on a bigger man. It would be interesting to see how Bowe would faer against a Dempsey, Louis or Tyson by contrast.

This is how I see it. In a match of two skilled heavyweights the much larger heavyweight has the advantage in height, reach, and weight. The larger man usually has a strength advantage as well. The smaller heavyweight can win, but to do so he’s going other advantages. My rule of thumb is the smaller heavy is going to need a clear edge in at least two of the following categories to win: power, speed, stamina, style, heart, and durability, with Power and durability being the most deseriable.

Bowe had the power, stamina, and style.
The speed was near even. Maybe Holyfield by a small margin.
The heart of the two was even.
Holyfield was more durable, but he lacked the power to hurt Bowe

To sum it up:

Bowe had the height, reach, weight, strength, power, stamina and style advantage. Holyfield was only more durable

[redrooster]

great display by Bowe. i was glad to see the reign of Holyfield over. it was very uneventful

[apollack]

Bottom line is that Holyfield on his best day could not outfight Bowe. But, he could outbox him. Just like Carbajal v. Gonzalez. After the first fight, Humberto realized he needed to box. That's what Evander did - the style that was most likely to be effective. Evander made a big mistake of trying to bomb with Bowe in the third fight and it cost him yet again. Don't punch with a puncher, especially one that is way bigger than you and can throw more punches than you can. Exploit his weakness, which is lack of speed and footwork.

[The Kurgan]

Holyfield-Bowe I was an example of Holyfield's immaturity as a boxer. Had he stuck with his strategy and not gotten into a brawl, he'd have widely out-pointed Bowe.

A good small man can beat a good big man, IF he has a better strategy than the big man. Put Joe Louis or Sonny Liston against that Bowe, and they'd devastate him.

[The Kurgan]

Bottom line is that Holyfield on his best day could not outfight Bowe. But, he could outbox him. Just like Carbajal v. Gonzalez. After the first fight, Humberto realized he needed to box. That's what Evander did - the style that was most likely to be effective. Evander made a big mistake of trying to bomb with Bowe in the third fight and it cost him yet again. Don't punch with a puncher, especially one that is way bigger than you and can throw more punches than you can. Exploit his weakness, which is lack of speed and footwork.

Exactly. A height disadvantage can become a height advantage; Frazier had a massive height advantage over Ali on the inside, for instance.

[Marciano Frazier]

So in fact you do think Holyfield was too small. Because you think the bulking up hurt his stamina too much, i.e. he should've been naturally that big so as to retain stamina at that weight.
Um, no, that's a pretty odd interpretation of what I wrote. The argument had no relation to whether Holyfield was too big or too small to beat Bowe, but whether, whatever size he was at, he still had enough stamina to brawl with Bowe for the full route without breaking down, which he didn't. But I do suppose a 205-pound man who didn't have to add 15-20 pounds of muscle bulk to get to that weight and was in great shape would endure better, so in a round-about sense this could be interpreted that way.

And yes, of course he was tired at the end of the Foreman fight; who wants to end a fight while still having gas in the tank, that would be a waste.

On top of that, Foreman was a huge 6'4 259 pound man. While he didn't apply that much pressure because of age, it's still tiring to pound an immovable object. Nethertheless, stamina did not become a limiting factor on Holyfield as he thoroughly dominated Foreman (and Thomas, Dokes and Holmes for that matter).
Frazier ended the first Ali fight with gas left in the tank. Marciano ended the first Charles fight with gas left in the tank. Those matches were grueling 15-round wars. If you're sagging and looking on the edge of exhaustion at the end of a fairly hard-fought-but-not-exactly-furiously-contested 12-rounder, then you apparently don't have stamina on those guys' level. Yes, a big, heavy guy you can't move around can prove an exhausting opponent, but, especially if he's old and fat with a huge belly and poor stamina, he gives you plenty of room for recuperaiton, unlike a little guy who throws a ton of punches and won't let you breathe.

And you say Holyfield lacked the power.

But what if the Holyfield from the Qawi fight shows up - yes he has better stamina, but his power is even less than the 205lb version. I see Bowe simply walking through whatever Holyfield has to offer even easier than he did in reality. On top of that, Holyfield would have a full 50lb to give up; that definitly drains energy.
No, I don't think a cruiserweight Holyfield could've outslugged Bowe either. I'm not sure he would have lost more decisively, though; he would have the stamina to hold up better and would prove quite a pesky, relentless little bugger for Bowe to try and take down.
Holyfield was never going to beat Bowe in a brawl. He needed to box, like he did in the second fight, and to great effect. I think we can agree, though, that Holyfield was not the greatest slugger of all time among smaller heavyweights.

It's easy to fight hard for 15 rounds and throw many punches against someone who is 5'9 187lb.
:lol: WOW! Sorry. You're usually an intelligent and reasonable poster, but I think you must not have thought this particular sentence through very much before typing it.

Yes he could do that at that weight. But i think it's naive to think he could simply do the same when having a 50 pound weight disadvantage. If you've ever boxed yourself then you will have noted that one of the most difficult things about fighting bigger guys is saving your energy. The fact that you have to spend so much time on getting in and out, defense, the easiness by which you are pushed around, the heavyness of even shots that you block, etc.
Yes, but a smaller man like Qawi, who is busy, relentless and never stops coming or lets you rest also makes for an especially tiring opponent.

I could see Frazier busting Bowe up late but it would be very hard considering Bowe's excellent infighting skills and size. I wouldn't consider a Bowe win a big upset.
I agree.

Dempsey and Marciano, they never fought someone as big and skilled as Bowe. Would their stamina hold up when they're facing a 6'5 235lb man who throws 50-60 punches a round?
Short answer: yes. You're kidding yourself if you think Bowe, or anyone in the last 30 years for that matter, would wear down and outlast Rocky Marciano, and I think Dempsey would have a good shot at finishing him early before the question of size-wearing-you-down came into play.

Willard was hopelessly skillless, a white hope who dethroned a fat, old and unfocused Johnson not on boxing skill but because he could take the punishement and not tire as much, a bit like Holyfield vs Bowe although Johnson's age had a lot to do with it. He was 37 and overweight against Dempsey.
Willard was better than you're making him sound. Johnson was not particularly fat when they fought, and although he was old, he was the type of fighter who performs well into old age and went on to perform pretty successfully for many years afterwards, although he was never given another real big fight to test whether he could make the bigtime again. He certainly still had top boxing skill, good speed and good stamina.
And anyway, I absolutely think Willard was at least as strong and could take and deliver a harder punch than Bowe, besides being even bigger than Bowe was, and Dempsey obviously had no trouble moving him around or hurting him.

Sharkey and Langford i've not seen decent film on so i cannot judge that.
Me neither(there isn't any, really). I listed them as "possibles" because, according to the descriptions I've read, they could both give and take great deals of very hard punches, and Langford was known for good speed and slippery defensive skills as well.

And remember that this entire discussion is based only on guys who could outslug Bowe. If we go into who could outbox him, the field broadens considerably.