Working on My alltime list.

[WhataRock]

With all this recent talk of lists I decided to have an attempt at my own top 100 list but Ill see if I can really take my time with it so I can at least be happy with it.

I had a top50 list for a while but I formatted my computer a few months ago and lost it. Attempted to type out the top 40 based on memory (even though it probably needed an overhaul anyway), it was a quick go of it which took me like 10 mins...Already I can see some things I want to change but for now I leave them, at least till I get some feedback.

This is what I came with.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Joe Louis
12. Archie Moore
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Pernell Whitaker
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Barney Ross

21. Mickey Walker
22. Ike Williams
23. Tony Canzoneri
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Salvador Sanchez
33. Fighting Harada
34. Michael Spinks
35. Jose Napoles
36. Carlos Ortiz
37. Luis Manual Rodriguez
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Joe Walcott
40. Jimmy McLarin

41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta
48. Terry McGovern
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins



Special Mention Antonio Tarver.

Notable changes from my old list is that Ive swapped Robinson and Armstrong...I feel comfortable with that.
I also clearly remember having Duran at #8 and Im sure Ali at #10 but I cant think who I have missed to put in front of them, so they shuffle up a spot for now.

Really would love some input. Especially reasonings, so I can go research about yous guyses justifications on my own.

And redrooster..Camacho and Norris are coming dont worry.

Edit: Ill at least round out the top50...It was something like that. I know Hopkins wasnt in it but this was before he beat Tarver, Wright and Pavlik. And I think I had him in the late 40's at one stage but he got pushed out as I was finishing off the list, so he would have been in the 50-60 range anyway.

Moved Walcott up a few spots..which brought down Marciano and Loughran.

Ill have to think hard about the next 50 though.

[JohnThomas1]

You give Tarver special mention but not Hopkins?

[WhataRock]

You give Tarver special mention but not Hopkins?


Its a joke mate...This bloke in the General posted a list a few weeks back that was a top25 alltime that was rounded out by Tarver. Suffice to say it didnt go down well and whenever a list was posted for the next week or so people would sometimes ask the silly question "No Tarver?" or "Wheres Antonio Tarver?".

He will not be making my top100 when Im done...Im fairly certain of that.

[JohnThomas1]

Its a joke mate...This bloke in the General posted a list a few weeks back that was a top25 alltime that was rounded out by Tarver. Suffice to say it didnt go down well and whenever a list was posted for the next week or so people would sometimes ask the silly question "No Tarver?" or "Wheres Antonio Tarver?".

He will not be making my top100 when Im done...Im fairly certain of that.

Fair enough

:lol:

[True Writer]

What evidence and reasoning do you have to base greb so high?

[WhataRock]

What evidence and reasoning do you have to base greb so high?

Resume..His quality (and quantity) of opponants, longevity and dominance.

[sweet_scientist]

With all this recent talk of lists I decided to have an attempt at my own top 100 list but Ill see if I can really take my time with it so I can at least be happy with it.

I had a top50 list for a while but I formatted my computer a few months ago and lost it. Attempted to type out the top 40 based on memory (even though it probably needed an overhaul anyway), it was a quick go of it which took me like 10 mins...Already I can see some things I want to change but for now I leave them, at least till I get some feedback.

This is what I came with.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Joe Louis
12. Archie Moore
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Pernell Whitaker
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Barney Ross

21. Mickey Walker
22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Ike Williams
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31.Charley Burley
32. Salvador Sanchez
33. Fighting Harada
34. Michael Spinks
35. Jose Napoles
36. Carlos Ortiz
37. Luis Manual Rodriguez
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Rocky Marciano
40. Jimmy McLarin


Special Mention Antonio Tarver.

Notable changes from my old list is that Ive swapped Robinson and Armstrong...I feel comfortable with that.
I also clearly remember having Duran at #8 and Im sure Ali at #10 but I cant think who I have missed to put in front of them, so they shuffle up a spot for now.

Really would love some input. Especially reasonings, so I can go research about yous guyses justifications on my own.

And redrooster..Camacho and Norris are coming dont worry.

I like it a lot :good

[bladerunner]

very good list.

[Sweet Pea]

Good list, though I'd especialy like Walcott to be higher. He was the definition of P4P.

Also, can everyone explain to me their Terry McGovern fixation? Not just you, but he seems to be popping up on these lists consistently, when I wouldn't even think to rate him over someone like Abe Attell.

[Bill Butcher]

Good list.....

Id personally have Chavez, Pep & Ali higher.....
Ali was the greatest HWT that beat the best comp in HWT history....
Pep was the best ever FWT with a record of 230-11-1, one of or thee best pure boxer, likewise with his defence.....
Chavez mastered 3 weights, has over 100 victories & reached 87-0 at one point........

Mayweather should be on the list & I might squeeze Morales & Barrera onto it but that isnt an arguement I would pursue, just my personal choice.

[GPater11093]

i would definitly have mayweather, morales and barrera in it

[Sweet Pea]

i would definitly have mayweather, morales and barrera in it

Barrera and Morales have no place in an all time top 50 list. Mayweather doesn't quite scrape into mine either. Hopkins just barely.

[Minotauro]

Good list although Walcott should be much higher and maybe Hagler a little lower with Walker jumping up a bit.

[sweet_scientist]

Good list, though I'd especialy like Walcott to be higher. He was the definition of P4P.

Also, can everyone explain to me their Terry McGovern fixation? Not just you, but he seems to be popping up on these lists consistently, when I wouldn't even think to rate him over someone like Abe Attell.

Knocking out the bantamweight, featherweight and lightweight champs in under a year might have a tad something to do with it.

[Sweet Pea]

Knocking out the bantamweight, featherweight and lightweight champs in under a year might have a tad something to do with it.I think it was more than a year's span between Palmar and Gans, and he gave up the title without defending it after winning against Palmar.

And the Gans fight is widely considered to be a dive (in fact McGovern was involved in a few controversial fights), therefore I don't rate it especially highly. The win over Dixon was big, but again, I don't see why McGovern's entire body of work surpasses that of a guy like Attell or even someone like Young Corbett who beat him twice.

[sweet_scientist]

I think it was more than a year's span between Palmar and Gans, and he gave up the title without defending it after winning against Palmar.

And the Gans fight is widely considered to be a dive (in fact McGovern was involved in a few controversial fights), therefore I don't rate it especially highly. The win over Dixon was big, but again, I don't see why McGovern's entire body of work surpasses that of a guy like Attell or even someone like Young Corbett who beat him twice.

Was actually in reference to Frank Erne pea, who was lightweight champ at the time.

I give McGovern no credit for the Gans farce. That was clearly a fake.

McGovern, much like Tyson just had that air of invincibility for a while and was ripping through the divisions. Like Tyson's reign though, McGovern's was short and he didn't accumulate the depth of resume that someone like Attell did, who faced everyone, even though he would drop the occasional decision here and there.

[Dempsey1238]

Not sure if the fight was a dive, I just felt McGoven caught Gans, which can happen imo. Add in no nc rule, and the odds goes more in McGoven's favor if he knock Gans down.

[sweet_scientist]

Not sure if the fight was a dive, I just felt McGoven caught Gans, which can happen imo. Add in no nc rule, and the odds goes more in McGoven's favor if he knock Gans down.

It looked fake on film imo, and when seen against the backdrop of how good Gans' chin was against naturally bigger guys than McGovern, it becomes pretty hard to believe that Terry whipped him like that.

[Dempsey1238]

I just dont see if it was a dive, Gans would keep getting up for more of tha smack down from WWE style talking. Its not like McGoven was a feather fisted hitter. If he hits you clean, he will hurt you. And he did catch Gans clean plenty of times, when Gans trying to get up. I just think he caught Gans cold, in the same way Carter caught Emile Griffith cold. It happens. Not saying McGoven can repeat it again or something, but in the old days one knockdown could turn the tide because of the lack of a certain rule.

I belive say Jess Willard had far much better had Dempsey been force to back off, and give Willard time to get up.

[mcvey]

I think I would have found room for Bob Foster ,but it's a good list ,we will all differ where we place them ,but no real anomalies there.

[WhataRock]

Good list, though I'd especialy like Walcott to be higher. He was the definition of P4P.

Also, can everyone explain to me their Terry McGovern fixation? Not just you, but he seems to be popping up on these lists consistently, when I wouldn't even think to rate him over someone like Abe Attell.


Its been drilled into my brain because someone suggested to me years ago how underrated he was and how he thought he was top 30 alltime.
Ive since seen thats a bit drastic and uncalled for but whenever I think top 50 I want to slot Terry in towards the end..Maybe thats up for review.

Im putting Attell in the 50-60 range.

[WhataRock]

I think I would have found room for Bob Foster ,but it's a good list ,we will all differ where we place them ,but no real anomalies there.


Bob is sitting on 58 as we speak..So Im glad that Im only just missing out on these guys people are suggesting anyway.

Just didnt think Bob beat the people to have him ranked above Johnson for example.


Thanks for the replies everyone.

[WhataRock]

Where is a fair placement for Dave Holly by the way?

[WhataRock]

This is a draft for my next portion up to 70

51. Jack Johnson
52. Dick Tiger
53. Abe Attell
54. Holman Williams
55. Wilfred Benitez
56. Carlos Zarate
57. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
58. Bob Foster
59. Jack “Kid” Berg
60. Packey McFarland
61. Lou Ambers
62. Jim Driscoll
63. Stanley Ketchel
64. Dave Holly
65. Kid Chocolate
66. Miguel Canto
67. Azumah Nelson
69. Mike McCallum
70. Manuel Ortiz

Something doesnt sit right about it :huh But Im struggling to think who Im missing and who is getting ranked to high.

[WhataRock]

Where does Fritzie Zivic belong? Top 50, Top 100, just outside. :think

[asero]

monzon and harada is too high

[WhataRock]

monzon and harada is too high

Where would you place them?

I have Carlos there because I reckon he could beat just about every middleweight Ive seen on film, his resume is also outstanding there.. And it is one of the deepest divisions ever.

[Senya13]

As usual, no Packey McFarland...

[WhataRock]

As usual, no Packey McFarland...


Ive got him at 64* at the moment in the rest of my unfinished list.

Im starting to think its a bit low but I only just got to him and Im still tweaking it. Britton is about 15 places behind him at the moment.

Its harder then I thought...Its hard deciding who to put in and who to leave out.

Edit Decided to move him up some places..makes it into the top 70 now.

[asero]

Where would you place them?

I have Carlos there because I reckon he could beat just about every middleweight Ive seen on film, his resume is also outstanding there.. And it is one of the deepest divisions ever.


you put him there merely bec of speculation?

[WhataRock]

you put him there merely bec of speculation?

Nah..As I said his record was outstanding there.

But I put some merit in how they look on film, how they deal with their opposition. Its not the most important thing, but I do take it into consideration.

Obviously someone like Greb you cant do that but there is enough film of the guys he beat to say he must have been pretty damn good.

Where would you have him though? Top 30, Top 40?

[asero]

Nah..As I said his record was outstanding there.

But I put some merit in how they look on film, how they deal with their opposition. Its not the most important thing, but I do take it into consideration.

Obviously someone like Greb you cant do that but there is enough film of the guys he beat to say he must have been pretty damn good.

Where would you have him though? Top 30, Top 40?


i would put him 23-25..also i would put cesar chavez higher than arguello

[Senya13]

Ive got him at 76 at the moment in the rest of my unfinished list.
About 2/3 of the names inside 50 right now are worse than McFarland both in head-to-head ability and resume-wise.

[WhataRock]

About 2/3 of the names inside 50 right now are worse than McFarland both in head-to-head ability and resume-wise.


Hmmm..Im not so sure I can come to that conclusion yet. I dont know of much film around of Packey and apart from Britton, Gibbons and Moran I dont know to much about that guys he beat.

[sweet_scientist]

McFarland is quite underrated. He also got the best of excellent lightweights like Freddie Welsh, Jimmy Britt.

A sure fire top 50 for me.

[flamengo]

Its your top 100 W.a.R... keep working on it mate... Cerdan, Fitzsimmons to be considered???

[WhataRock]

Its your top 100 W.a.R... keep working on it mate... Cerdan, Fitzsimmons to be considered???


Fitzsimmons is 24 on my list..I had him in the late 20's a while ago..I dont think Ill be going any higher then that.

Cerdan is sitting in the 80-90 range at the moment..I havent chosen a spot for him yet, not sure if Ill find room for him higher up but he wont be going any lower for now.

[WhataRock]

McFarland is quite underrated. He also got the best of excellent lightweights like Freddie Welsh, Jimmy Britt.

A sure fire top 50 for me.


He is well inside my 100.

I just cant really agree that he beat 2/3 of my top 50 list in a H2H sense yet, as Senya thinks. I may be swayed one day, Ill have to look into it for myself.

[flamengo]

Fitzsimmons is 24 on my list..I had him in the late 20's a while ago..I dont think Ill be going any higher then that.

Cerdan is sitting in the 80-90 range at the moment..I havent chosen a spot for him yet, not sure if Ill find room for him higher up but he wont be going any lower for now.

My oversight.... appologies.

[Senya13]

McFarland is quite underrated. He also got the best of excellent lightweights like Freddie Welsh, Jimmy Britt.
I'm still trying to track down that only loss on his resume, with no luck so far. At least, in early years reports he was asserted to be undefeated, maybe he admitted to a loss in one of his later years interviews, I don't know. He or his manager (don't have my notes at hand) admitted that they filled his early record with lots of KO wins in order to boost him for better matches, so it's possible they have concealed a loss too.

[Dempsey1238]

I think Fitz should be around the top ten, being the first to hold 3 weight divison titles, before the likes or ross, Armstrong and Berg would repeat the feat, and of couse before the jr titles.
Also Fitz was mostly a middleweight taking out the likes of Tomy Sharkey, by ko, were Jeff failed.
The term pound for pound was used for Fitz, more than a good 40 years before Robinson.

[McGrain]

I agree that Fitz should be top 15 at least. I see him just inside the ten.

Rock, I think Zivic makes the lower end of the 100, yeah.

[WhataRock]

I think Fitz should be around the top ten, being the first to hold 3 weight divison titles, before the likes or ross, Armstrong and Berg would repeat the feat, and of couse before the jr titles.
Also Fitz was mostly a middleweight taking out the likes of Tomy Sharkey, by ko, were Jeff failed.
The term pound for pound was used for Fitz, more than a good 40 years before Robinson.


The wins just arent there for me to justify that IMO..Maybe I dont know enough about his opponants but seems to me he lost to basically every notable heavy he fought. Got Nonpareil towards the end of his career putting that one into perspective.

A definite top25 fighter, has some excellent wins on his record..maybe he deserves to be slotted a little higher on my list but Im happy with him there.

[WhataRock]

I agree that Fitz should be top 15 at least. I see him just inside the ten.

Rock, I think Zivic makes the lower end of the 100, yeah.

Cheers for the reply McGrain.

As it stands Fritz is sitting just outside my 100, when I say just he is 106..not sure he will make it but Im sure some will argue against some of my inclusions in the last 20, which Im happy to hear.

[DINAMITA]

With all this recent talk of lists I decided to have an attempt at my own top 100 list but Ill see if I can really take my time with it so I can at least be happy with it.

I had a top50 list for a while but I formatted my computer a few months ago and lost it. Attempted to type out the top 40 based on memory (even though it probably needed an overhaul anyway), it was a quick go of it which took me like 10 mins...Already I can see some things I want to change but for now I leave them, at least till I get some feedback.

This is what I came with.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Joe Louis
12. Archie Moore
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Pernell Whitaker
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Barney Ross

21. Mickey Walker
22. Ike Williams
23. Tony Canzoneri
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Salvador Sanchez
33. Fighting Harada
34. Michael Spinks
35. Jose Napoles
36. Carlos Ortiz
37. Luis Manual Rodriguez
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Joe Walcott
40. Jimmy McLarin

41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta
48. Terry McGovern
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins



Special Mention Antonio Tarver.

Notable changes from my old list is that Ive swapped Robinson and Armstrong...I feel comfortable with that.
I also clearly remember having Duran at #8 and Im sure Ali at #10 but I cant think who I have missed to put in front of them, so they shuffle up a spot for now.

Really would love some input. Especially reasonings, so I can go research about yous guyses justifications on my own.

And redrooster..Camacho and Norris are coming dont worry.

Edit: Ill at least round out the top50...It was something like that. I know Hopkins wasnt in it but this was before he beat Tarver, Wright and Pavlik. And I think I had him in the late 40's at one stage but he got pushed out as I was finishing off the list, so he would have been in the 50-60 range anyway.

Moved Walcott up a few spots..which brought down Marciano and Loughran.

Ill have to think hard about the next 50 though.

Hey Rock, congratulations on making your list, I have posted my own top 100 a while back and I know how difficult a task it is. I like your list overall. Some minor gripes:

- Mickey Walker is far too low. For me, he is a lock for any top 10
- Having Marvin Hagler above Barney Ross cannot really be justified
- Same with having Joe Louis above Archie Moore
- It's just a personal opinion, but I never agree with how highly Jimmy Wilde is ranked in lists. I had him around 30th in my own. I don't see how his resume justifies these top 15-20 placings.
- JC Chavez above Burley?
- Michael Spinks above Roy Jones Jr?

Other than that, good list. :good

[McGrain]

I had Packy McFarland at #52 last time I updated my list.

[WhataRock]

Hey Rock, congratulations on making your list, I have posted my own top 100 a while back and I know how difficult a task it is. I like your list overall. Some minor gripes:

- Mickey Walker is far too low. For me, he is a lock for any top 10
- Having Marvin Hagler above Barney Ross cannot really be justified
- Same with having Joe Louis above Archie Moore
- It's just a personal opinion, but I never agree with how highly Jimmy Wilde is ranked in lists. I had him around 30th in my own. I don't see how his resume justifies these top 15-20 placings.
- JC Chavez above Burley?
- Michael Spinks above Roy Jones Jr?

Other than that, good list. :good

Thanks for your reply Dinamita.

In answer to you "gripes" :D
This was an attempt at copying my old list...Im certain I had Walker around the 20 mark...He may well go up in review, he "looks" to low for me but I dont think he is to unreasonable there. So there may be a few mistakes from my old list anyway but the whole point of this exercise was to re do the whole thing.

This is an alltime p4p list and I think Wilde defines the meaning of p4p considering the weight he gave away for the bulk of his career.

Spinks is a better fighter then Roy IMO, who had a better career at lightheavyweight and a much better career at heavy. No brainer having him ahead IMO, though not by much which I think their placements within 4 spots of each other indicates.

Hagler even isnt one of my favourite fighters but I dont know I just like the look of him being that high. Its only 1 spot and both have wins over highly placed individuals in the list, so I think they are comparable in a way. I know for sure I had Ross at 20, dont think he will go much higher but I wont place him any lower..Might swap Hagler and Walker around?

RE: JCC above Burley As stated before its a work in progress..For some parts I kind of bundled guys together in a tier system like yours and then just assigned them numbers..Thats about where I had them in my old list, maybe Burley was ahead of JCC, maybe he was behind but Im fairly certain they both fell in the 25-35 range.
I do think JCC did more in the p4p sense, which is maybe why I put him there.

Now you got me thinking the H.Williams is sitting a bit low at 54...damn this is tricky.

Cheers again for your reply.

[McGrain]

H Williams is OK at 54 IMO. That's fine for him. Higher can certainly be justified though.

[WhataRock]

I had Packy McFarland at #52 last time I updated my list.


Ive elevated him to 60 now...to keep Senya and Sweet happy.

I think that shall be his final resting place on my list...Ive looked up a ton of him on the net and the books I have today and its all really the same stuff that I can find..pretty vague at times but he is considered a truly great fighter.

[DINAMITA]

Thanks for your reply Dinamita.

In answer to you "gripes" :D
This was an attempt at copying my old list...Im certain I had Walker around the 20 mark...He may well go up in review, he "looks" to low for me but I dont think he is to unreasonable there. So there may be a few mistakes from my old list anyway but the whole point of this exercise was to re do the whole thing.

This is an alltime p4p list and I think Wilde defines the meaning of p4p considering the weight he gave away for the bulk of his career.

Spinks is a better fighter then Roy IMO, who had a better career at lightheavyweight and a much better career at heavy. No brainer having him ahead IMO, though not by much which I think their placements within 4 spots of each other indicates.

Hagler even isnt one of my favourite fighters but I dont know I just like the look of him being that high. Its only 1 spot and both have wins over highly placed individuals in the list, so I think they are comparable in a way. I know for sure I had Ross at 20, dont think he will go much higher but I wont place him any lower..Might swap Hagler and Walker around?

RE: JCC above Burley As stated before its a work in progress..For some parts I kind of bundled guys together in a tier system like yours and then just assigned them numbers..Thats about where I had them in my old list, maybe Burley was ahead of JCC, maybe he was behind but Im fairly certain they both fell in the 25-35 range.
I do think JCC did more in the p4p sense, which is maybe why I put him there.

Now you got me thinking the H.Williams is sitting a bit low at 54...damn this is tricky.

Cheers again for your reply.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my 'gripes' mate, much appreciated. Your reasoning seems pretty sound to me, your explanations of Wilde, Chavez, Burley, Ross, Williams, Spinks/Jones are cool. However, I can't accept Marvin Hagler and Mickey Walker being ranked so closely, I just can't!! For me they are in completely different classes of greatness (I had Walker 8th and Hagler 33rd, something like that). But hey, your list your call, you're doing a good job here all things considered, it's a very very tough thing to do :good

[Senya13]

Looked up on the net? There are basically only Tracy Callis' and Mike Casey's articles about him, is all. Both are relying mostly on secondary sources, than on first-hand knowledge, and provide no information about boxers McFarland beat or got better of.

[WhataRock]

Looked up on the net? There are basically only Tracy Callis' and Mike Casey's articles about him, is all. Both are relying mostly on secondary sources, than on first-hand knowledge, and provide no information about boxers McFarland beat or got better of.


Thats what Im saying.

I have books where he is mentioned also but not in any greater detail.

[WhataRock]

That'll do pig...Over it. That last 20 I was just banging in random names, I thought I missed out on heaps so I kept going to 120.

Couldnt be bothered going and researching every fighter individually..taking to much of my time trying to perfect it. Its probably far from it now, full of contradictions and misplacement's Im sure but it will do..Im sorry I missed out on Tarver and Joppy though.
So here it is..my alltime top 120. :D

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Archie Moore
12. Joe Louis
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Mickey Walker
15. Pernell Whitaker
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Barney Ross

21. Marvin Hagler
22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Ike Williams
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Joe Walcott
33. Salvador Sanchez
34. Jose Napoles
35. Carlos Ortiz
36. Michael Spinks
37. Fighting Harada
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Luis Manual Rodriguez

40. Jimmy McLarin
41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta
48. Holman Williams
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Jack Johnson
52. Dick Tiger
53. Abe Attell
54. Terry McGovern
55. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
56. Wilfred Benitez
57. Carlos Zarate
58. Bob Foster
59. Jack “Kid” Berg

60. Packey McFarland
61. Lou Ambers
62. Jim Driscoll
63. Stanley Ketchel
64. Dave Holly
65. Kid Chocolate
66. Miguel Canto
67. Azumah Nelson
69. Mike McCallum
70. Manuel Ortiz
71. Oscar De La Hoya
72. Vicente Salvidar
73. Pascual Perez
74. Lennox Lewis
75. Billy Graham
76. Young Corbett
77. Felix Trinidad
78. Billy Conn
79. Aaron Pryor

80. Joe Frazier
81. Lloyd Marshall
82. Nicolino Lochee
83. Flash Elorade
84. Jack Britton
85. George Foreman
86. Larry Holmes
87. Tiger Flowers
88. Jeff Fenech
89. Antonio Cervantes
90. Marcel Cerdan
91. Ricardo Lopez
92. Carmen Basillo
93. Jack Dempsey
94. Duillo Loi
95. Evander Holyfield
96. Joe Brown
97. Erik Morales
98. Gene Fullmer
99. Mike Tyson
100. Beau Jack

101. Pancho Villa
102. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
103. Sammy Angott
104. Lew Tendler
105. Marco Antonio Barrera
106. Bob Montgomery
107. Ismael Laguna
108. Fritizie Zivic
109. Jack Dillon
110. Jersey Joe Walcott
111. Jim Jeffries
112. Young Griffo
113. Eusebio Pedroza
114. Jimmy Bivins
115. Kostya Tszyu
116. Owen Moran
117. Nino Benvenuti
118. Joe Calzaghe
119. Abe Goldstein
120. Johnny Kilbane

[asero]

carlos ortiz is your greatest puerto rican boxer?

[WhataRock]

carlos ortiz is your greatest puerto rican boxer?


Certainly is...not yours?

[asero]

i only catch a glimpse of ortiz fights but i like benitez more.. i do not know, i never followed the career of ortiz but i read somewhere that benitez is the best puertorican boxer..

[WhataRock]

Ortiz has a stellar resume and if you can get some more video you can see how well rounded and skilled he was in his prime.

Incidentally I have Benitez at 56..making him no3 PR behind Gomez who is at 45.

[asero]

ok, maybe that the reason why you put ismael laguna at 107...he was able to beat ortiz in his prime

[WhataRock]

ok, maybe that the reason why you put ismael laguna at 107...he was able to beat ortiz in his prime


Certainly helps, in fact it is the main reason he is in there...Laguna was a great fighter in his own right though..Also beat Ishimatsu, Camora, Ramos and Hernandez..Two time undisputed champ.

[trampie]

Well done on the list

Observations for me -
Wilde to low
Hopkins #50, Calzaghe #118 {i take Joe to beat Bernard at anytime of their careers}
Pacquiao to high
La Motta to high
Holyfield to low

ps if i think two boxers are in the same ballpark ranking wise and have met in the ring, i would tend to rank the victor higher.
{same ballpark, not Norris/Leonard type scenarios}

[WhataRock]

Well done on the list

Observations for me -
Wilde to low
Hopkins #50, Calzaghe #118 {i take Joe to beat Bernard at anytime of their careers}
Pacquiao to high
La Motta to high
Holyfield to low

ps if i think two boxers are in the same ballpark ranking wise and have met in the ring, i would tend to rank the victor higher.
{same ballpark, not Norris/Leonard type scenarios}

Cheers for the reply

Im happy with Wilde there to tell you the truth, I have had a few people say he was a tad to high if anything.

I wouldnt..I think Nard may be a tad high there but I wouldnt have him any lower then 60 anyway. Joe is in the right place, H2H he goes well but the wins are just not there over prime opposition.

I can dig the comment regarding Pac but I like him :tong

Jake has wins over the no1, 48, 90, 108 on my list and a host of other good fighters to boot..I do agree thats the very highest Id ever have him, maybe could stand to get pushed back a little but I dont have an issue with him there.

RE: The P.S..I agree with that somewhat but there are also other factors you need to take into consideration such as where the respective fighters were in their career and the nature of the fight. I think basing each fighter on their own merit is the most important factor however..much more important.

[asero]

i observed you ranked jim jeffries and demsey too low

[asero]

spinks and holyfield are miles away...

[asero]

for me, mosley is better than tszyu...mosley is an elite top 5 p4p for 4 years

[DINAMITA]

IMO...

TOO HIGH in red
TOO LOW in green
GOOD CALLS in pink

That'll do pig...Over it. That last 20 I was just banging in random names, I thought I missed out on heaps so I kept going to 120.

Couldnt be bothered going and researching every fighter individually..taking to much of my time trying to perfect it. Its probably far from it now, full of contradictions and misplacement's Im sure but it will do..Im sorry I missed out on Tarver and Joppy though.
So here it is..my alltime top 120. :D

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Archie Moore
12. Joe Louis
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Mickey Walker
15. Pernell Whitaker
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Barney Ross

21. Marvin Hagler
22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Ike Williams
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Joe Walcott
33. Salvador Sanchez
34. Jose Napoles
35. Carlos Ortiz
36. Michael Spinks
37. Fighting Harada
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Luis Manual Rodriguez

40. Jimmy McLarin
41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta
48. Holman Williams
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Jack Johnson
52. Dick Tiger
53. Abe Attell
54. Terry McGovern
55. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
56. Wilfred Benitez
57. Carlos Zarate
58. Bob Foster
59. Jack “Kid” Berg

60. Packey McFarland
61. Lou Ambers
62. Jim Driscoll
63. Stanley Ketchel
64. Dave Holly
65. Kid Chocolate
66. Miguel Canto
67. Azumah Nelson
69. Mike McCallum
70. Manuel Ortiz
71. Oscar De La Hoya
72. Vicente Salvidar
73. Pascual Perez
74. Lennox Lewis
75. Billy Graham
76. Young Corbett
77. Felix Trinidad
78. Billy Conn
79. Aaron Pryor

80. Joe Frazier
81. Lloyd Marshall
82. Nicolino Lochee
83. Flash Elorade
84. Jack Britton
85. George Foreman
86. Larry Holmes
87. Tiger Flowers
88. Jeff Fenech
89. Antonio Cervantes
90. Marcel Cerdan
91. Ricardo Lopez
92. Carmen Basillo
93. Jack Dempsey
94. Duillo Loi
95. Evander Holyfield
96. Joe Brown
97. Erik Morales
98. Gene Fullmer
99. Mike Tyson
100. Beau Jack

101. Pancho Villa
102. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
103. Sammy Angott
104. Lew Tendler
105. Marco Antonio Barrera
106. Bob Montgomery
107. Ismael Laguna
108. Fritizie Zivic
109. Jack Dillon
110. Jersey Joe Walcott
111. Jim Jeffries
112. Young Griffo
113. Eusebio Pedroza
114. Jimmy Bivins
115. Kostya Tszyu
116. Owen Moran
117. Nino Benvenuti
118. Joe Calzaghe
119. Abe Goldstein
120. Johnny Kilbane


A great list mate, some things I agree with, some things I don't, but all round a fantastic effort. No real shocking crimes (I still think Ross is too low and Hagler too high, there shouldn't only be one space between those two guys, Hagler's resume against natural middleweights just doesn't justify it at all), and some very good calls.

You have got the often overrated in good positions (Calzaghe, Jack Dempsey the heavyweight, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Stanley Ketchel) and you have given some true greats their due (Griffith, Charles, Arguello, Whitaker, Pacquiao, McCallum).

I think the modern trio of Hopkins, Holyfield and Lewis are all a bit low (especially Holyfield, a very strange ranking IMO), but that's a minor gripe.

Well done :good

(though I have to ask - why no number 68?)


And why did none of these guys make the cut mate:


- GEORGE CARPENTIER
- HARRY WILLS
- SONNY LISTON
- PANAMA AL BROWN
- JAMES TONEY

Do you really think guys like Calzaghe and Tsyzu have the resumes to be in there ahead of these five?

[the cobra]

I think Holyfield is far too low. It's really my only major problem.

I can't see what Lopez, Fenech, Loi, Dempsey, Pryor, Cervantes, Elorde, Locche, and a lot of others did that earns them a spot above Evander.

He's got a better resume than all of those I mentioned, was dominant at his stay at cruiser, and had an impressive heavyweight career. The only two men who beat him in what could be argued his prime IMO were Bowe and Moorer, and he has wins over both.

I haven't made a list in a while, but I would probably place him somewhere around #50.

A good list overall though.

[WhataRock]

Cheers for the replies fellas...I pretty much gave up in the end, I was moving people around, not being happy with it and then moving them again. I was getting to immersed in research, it was taking a lot of my time and It was starting to be a pain, so I stopped looking a just left it at that, chucking on a few guys at the end to make it an even 120. So Im was always going to miss out on a few names and I take your critique on board.

Having Evander there is quite bizarre actually...I put in the "who is greater Holmes/Evander" thread I have Holmes a bit higher and I wasnt sure why and that answers it. I thought I had him at 60 but he got pushed back and bit whilst I was chopping and changing..possibly as far back as the late 70's.
Im fairly certain he was the phantom 68 but how he got pushed back 30 spots is beyond me..Im a big Holy fan to tell you the truth.

So this is the revised list with Sonny Liston slotting in...bit of an oversight of mine, he should have made it in there.


Top 50.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Muhammed Ali
10. Joe Gans
11. Archie Moore
12. Joe Louis
13. Sugar Ray Leonard
14. Mickey Walker
15. Pernell Whitaker
16. Jimmy Wilde
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Gene Tunney
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Barney Ross

21. Marvin Hagler
22. Tony Canzoneri
23. Ike Williams
24. Bob Fitzsimmons
25. Emile Griffith
26. Kid Gavilan
27. Eder Jofre
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Tommy Hearns
30. Julio Cesar Chavez
31. Charley Burley
32. Joe Walcott
33. Salvador Sanchez
34. Jose Napoles
35. Carlos Ortiz
36. Michael Spinks
37. Fighting Harada
38. Roy Jones Jr
39. Luis Manual Rodriguez

40. Jimmy McLarin
41. Tommy Loughran
42. Rocky Marciano
43. Harold Johnson
44. Manny Pacquaio
45. Wilfredo Gomez
46. Ruben Olivares
47. Jake Lamotta

48. Holman Williams
49. Ted Lewis
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Jack Johnson
52. Dick Tiger
53. Abe Attell
54. Terry McGovern
55. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
56. Wilfred Benitez
57. Carlos Zarate
58. Bob Foster
59. Jack “Kid” Berg

60. Packey McFarland
61. Lou Ambers
62. Jim Driscoll
63. Stanley Ketchel
64. Dave Holly
65. Kid Chocolate
66. Miguel Canto
67. Azumah Nelson
68. Evander Holyfield
69. Mike McCallum
70. Manuel Ortiz
71. Oscar De La Hoya
72. Vicente Salvidar
73. Pascual Perez
74. Lennox Lewis
75. Billy Graham
76. Young Corbett
77. Felix Trinidad
78. Billy Conn
79. Aaron Pryor

80. Joe Frazier
81. Lloyd Marshall
82. Nicolino Lochee
83. Flash Elorade
84. Jack Britton
85. George Foreman
86. Larry Holmes
87. Tiger Flowers
88. Jeff Fenech
89. Antonio Cervantes
90. Marcel Cerdan
91. Ricardo Lopez
92. Carmen Basillo
93. Jack Dempsey
94. Duillo Loi
95. Joe Brown
96. Erik Morales
97. Gene Fullmer
98. Mike Tyson
99. Beau Jack
100. PanchoVilla

101. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
102. Sammy Angott
103. Lew Tendler
104. Sonny Liston
105. Marco Antonio Barrera
106. Bob Montgomery
107. Ismael Laguna
108. Fritizie Zivic
109. Jack Dillon
110. Shane Mosley
111. Jersey Joe Walcott
112. Jim Jeffries
113. Young Griffo
114. Eusebio Pedroza
115. Jimmy Bivins
116. Kostya Tszyu
117. Owen Moran
118. Nino Benvenuti
119. Joe Calzaghe
120. Johnny Kilbane


That was the only major change I made..Ill work on it from time to time, taking people out, putting people in, moving them around but overall Im pleased with it.

[asero]

^^^ continue working on it..

can you justify kostya over mosley?

[smitty_son408]

I'd move Kid Gavilan up a slot or two on the list. He holds 2 wins over Williams in their trilogy and victories over Carmen Basillio and Beau Jack all of whom hold victories over Williams.

[asero]

jimmy bivins always losses on big time fights...harry wills sould be given BIG consideration since you put langford at #3..at the very worse, he should be in the top 50

willis has the number of sam langford

[WhataRock]

jimmy bivins always losses on big time fights...harry wills sould be given BIG consideration since you put langford at #3..at the very worse, he should be in the top 50

willis has the number of sam langford

Harry not being there is another oversight I admit but Im not so sure Id have him top 50..Id have to think about it.

His wins over Langford certainly mean he should be ranked in at least the 100 but considering the size advantage he had over Langford, you have to put those wins into context and not just take them on face value.

His first win over Sam was when Langford was 31 in the long tailend of his career and Wills was 25 or so and just coming into his prime years. Wills was a true heavyweight, relatively big for the day whereas Sam was more suited to middleweight.
Other then Langford, Harry's resume is a little thin compared to a lot of guys in the 100..No fault of his own more then likely as he seemed to be avoided like the plague, especially by Dempsey..A win over Dempsey would have changed how his career is viewed immensely.

Im not sure what your are talking about saying Bivins lost all his big time fights considering he has wins over Charles, Burley, Moore, Marshall and Maxim. Most of his losses came in the last 1/3 of his career.


RE: Kostya over Shane..Mosley was a name that was in that list towards the end but he got squeezed out. I think I would have had him at 122-123 if I continued anyway.
Beating Marga wont catapault him up the list as far as some people would want him to but he will certainly move up some places. Im sure Id put him over Kostya now seeing as though he wasnt that far behind him IMO to start off with.

[Rise Above]

How long did it take you to put together a list like this mate ?

I'm in the process of trying to do something like this myself but will be more likely to be a top 50 at most. The more I research it the harder it becomes, not to mention time consuming.

Also what factors did you take into consideration to place these guys where you did. Was it a combination of titles held and opposition fought or were there other factors ?

[WhataRock]

I'd move Kid Gavilan up a slot or two on the list. He holds 2 wins over Williams in their trilogy and victories over Carmen Basillio and Beau Jack all of whom hold victories over Williams.

Thats fair..they are close anyway.

But considering Ike's best weight was lightweight and Gavilan's was welter, the wins have to be put into context, especially when Ike gave away 10 pounds in their last fight.

Just because Gavilan has the edge H2H doesnt necessarily make him clearly the greater fighter when you think about it.

I dont have a problem with someone putting Gav higher but I dont agree with their fight series being the breaker.

[WhataRock]

How long did it take you to put together a list like this mate ?

I'm in the process of trying to do something like this myself but will be more likely to be a top 50 at most. The more I research it the harder it becomes, not to mention time consuming.

Also what factors did you take into consideration to place these guys where you did. Was it a combination of titles held and opposition fought or were there other factors ?

When I did the original 50 about 2 years ago I spent a couple of weeks working on it. Not every day or anything..Id go 3 or 4 days sometimes with out even looking at it, but then I could spend close to 3 hours working on it in a sitting.

This time around I kept the 50 mostly in tact, with a few minor changes..I spent like a week doing the 100 then I gave up and just slotted in the rest in, extending it to 120 because there were a few names I wanted to put in to show (to myself mainly but others aswell) that I hadnt forgotten about these guys, they just missed out. I wanted to fully do it properly but in the end I was just spending to much time looking up stuff..rather be fishing, boating and/or drinking to tell you the truth. Hence why its far from perfect and now you can see people are pointing out its flaws, which I was expecting.

Its good fun but it can drag you into far sometimes with the researching.

First and foremost its about the resume.

Who they beat, how they beat them, their longevity as a champ or/and a contender, their level of dominance. Their p4p achievments are very important but you have to look at the opposition beaten more then anything. Manny has won many titles across a lot of weight divisions if you were to base it purely on that then he would be very high on the list. But you have to consider the guys he beat to get them, where they were in their respective careers at the time and the fact that he fights in an era with a lot more divisions and titles to fight for.
Takes a bit of time to research the names on a lot of guys records because they can often be obscure..And it certainly should involve more then just looking up boxrec and youtube.

I put a lot less emphasis on H2H specualtion but I do consider it when making the list nonetheless.

I got to be honest I wasnt totally consistent with my criteria. Some guys are in there because I like them and I put more emphasis on other criteria to cater for them a little more. But you have to because some guys you can see there whole career on film, whereas other you would be hardpressed to see any video on them. For instance a guy like Pryor doesnt have near the resume of many guys behind him but his clearly a monster H2H at the weight he fought at.
A guy like Greb is there based purely on his amazing record, not because he impressed on film because there is basically none of him.

Good luck with it mate. They are fun to make and you can learn a lot in the process.:good

[Rise Above]

Thanks mate, its been very educational so far thats for sure.

I have been using quite a few sources in regards to researching some of these guys. One book I have thats been very handy so far is the ibhof boxing register, definitely recommended.

I have a feeling this is something that will take a fair while to do but it keeps me out of trouble when I'm bored so its all good.

[asero]

how would you factor in the illegal drugs used by boxers during big fights like mosley vs hoya?

[asero]

charles and moore beat bivins 4x...

[asero]

jim jeffries had been champion for 5 years..that longetivity there...

[asero]

how can you rank spinks too high and holmes at 86..spinks is not top 70 if he did not beat holmes.

i see the logic of harada being high bec he beat jofre who ranks high in your lists..that is harada's ticket to fame and immortality..spinks ticket is a guy that is not in your top 85..add to the fact that spinks is not knocking his opponents down at lightheavy..there is no drama in the wins of spinks..

[WhataRock]

how can you rank spinks too high and at 86..spinks is not top 70 if he did not beat holmes.

i see the logic of harada being high bec he beat jofre who ranks high in your lists..that is harada's ticket to fame and immortality..spinks ticket is a guy that is not in your top 85..add to the fact that spinks is not knocking his opponents down at lightheavy..there is no drama in the wins of spinks..


Im sorry mate but I have no idea what you are talking about.

[DINAMITA]

Having Calzaghe and Tszyu above Mosley is no longer viable IMO.

[asero]

Success is not based on how many Championship you've won, but what you've left behind for others to follow - Isiah Thomas 1990 Detriot Pistons

somehow its true..