Prime Tyson V Prime Joe Louis

[FLINT ISLAND]

Prime

these two warriors of boxing history

meet in a war over 12-15 rounds

what happens

who wins?

[Bill1234]

It kills me to say, but I think Tyson takes him. I think he would overwhelm Joe from the start and stop him around the 3rd. Joe didn't have the best chin, and Tyson had the speed, power, and timing to catch him early and drop him multiple times.

[mcvey]

Prime

these two warriors of boxing history

meet in a war over 12-15 rounds

what happens

who wins?

A prime Tyson has to be given a live chance with anyone ,his handspeed ,coupled with serious power ,solid combinations and ever agressive propulsion mean he would be a serious night's work for anyone.Maybe it's just an old timer wishful thinking ,but I lean towards the "Bomber" getting Tyson out out of there around the 9th , though he may visit the floor a couple of times first.

[pugilist_boyd]

you needed a toss up or undecided category because i cant hardly deciede tyson could ko joe but joe was better pure boxer tyson better fighter,the only reason im going with joe is if he can weather the storm i think he'll take mike,its the heart catogory that makes my decision for joe

[GPater11093]

i think joe would maybe get KD'd in the first 3 rounds but get up and grind down tyson before flattening him with a right hand around the 10th

[Minotauro]

Louis by late stoppage.

[ripcity]

This is a hard one to pick. I think Louis has better skills, as well as a hight and reach advantage, and would employ the right stratigy. Bascicly hit and hold when Tyson gets to close. I also think Louis would give Tyson some diffcult angles as well. He won't dance like Ali, which will work out in his favor as well. I think Louis wins in a les than exciting fight mabey a late round knockout.
On the other hand Louis could be knocked down and one good shot from Tyson could end things in an instant. A knockdown or two by Tyson could have an impact on the score cards. In otherwords Louis could win the fight but not the boxing match.
I'm going to say Louis 8-4 give or take a round over 12 and 9-6 give or take around over 15.

[Sweet Pea]

Tyson by early KO. To be honest I don't think it's that realistic to favor Louis, but that's just me.

[ripcity]

Tyson by early KO. To be honest I don't think it's that realistic to favor Louis, but that's just me.

I would agree that if there was an early knockout it would be in Tyson's favor.

[WhataRock]

Enzo stops them both of course.

[Manassa]

Louis KO3.

[SteveO]

It's a tough pick because Tyson's P4P ranking (in my opinion) is not too high, while Louis is quite high.

However, I feel Tyson on his best day troubles just about any HW.

[Smokin']

Tyson by early knockout. Tyson has the advantages in power, handspeed, punch resistance and head movement. Louis didn't like to be pressured and Tyson wouldn't let him get his distance. Louis would be floored early and eventually stopped.

[GoldenChild]

Tyson by KO and early.

Joe ain't got the chin to win this.

[Seamus]

You guys keep mentioning Tyson's handspeed, combos and power.

Louis was at least his equal in each department and but with pinpoint accuracy. He's the textbook of heavyweight boxing, the finest combo's ever put together by any hw i've seen.

Louis KO7.

[mr. magoo]

Tyson vs Louis? Is it that time of the week again?

[GoldenChild]

Louis is ahead!? What the hell kind of bullshit is that.

[Hydraulix]

It's really hard to predict the outcome of a Mike Tyson fight because his low confidence is a much bigger factor than his fast handspeed and frightening power. If you're not afraid of Tyson, you've got a good shot. I don't see any way Tyson wins against Louis.

[SteveO]

Tyson vs Louis? Is it that time of the week again?


Sure is.

We're going to do Tyson-Ali tomorrow.

It's like your favorite movie that you can watch 1000 times.

In all honesty, it's a decent fantasy match-up. No disrespect intended.

[leverage]

Joe louis had an only average chin and his slow feet wouldn't be fast enough to get him out of trouble once he got hurt. He was hurt and floored by men that 30-40 pounds lighter than tyson so it would stand to reason that tyson could do the same or worse. Also, tyson was a great finsher who rarely let his opponents off the hook once he hurt them.

Louis would be facing someone not only much heavier than himself, but is his equal in handspeed and punching power. Tyson also had superior defense and a much stronger chin. Louis would have try to get to him first and consistently and i doubt that he could do that without getting caught.

I know that joe is a legend but that doesn't mean that couldn't lose. My pick is tyson by tko in 5.

[Grinder]

Louis KO3.

Serious?

That is BS, Tyson won't go out to an early KO from almost any fighter in history, his chin is too good.

[asero]

tyson never evolves...he is just too slow

[sauhund II]

No disrespect to Joe but he was wobbled/knocked down by blown up middle/lthwts and Ko'ed by a cruiser in Schmeling. I guarantee that Mike does not need countless right hands like Max to stop him. A few will do. Remember Botha ? Tyson would be a laughing stock if he struggled with those tiny guys like Joe did. He made a career out of bouncing A to C level BIG skilled fighters like Berbick, Holmes,Spinks, Ruddock, Williams, Stewart etc etc around like ping pong balls.

Mike will easily match and probably outspeed him, chin is in another zipcode and Joes slow feet standing right in front of him ain't gonna help.

This will be a Tyson KO not matter how you are dicing or slicing it unless you use the shell of a shell fat ass who fought Lewis and then Mike better not get some clean shots in...........straight out of a time machine against a 86-88 prime Tyson it is going to be good nite early for Louis, again , no disrespect intended.

[Manassa]

People may forget how scary and explosive Louis could be.

[janitor]

People may forget how scary and explosive Louis could be.

This is true.

People talk about Tysons whirlwind attack and early stoppages because they have seen him destroy Berbick and Spinks in glorious technicolour but what about Louis's.

I would submit that Louis has a record of stoppages in the first and second round as impresive as Tyson's and arguably moreso.

[janitor]

No disrespect to Joe but he was wobbled/knocked down by blown up middle/lthwts and Ko'ed by a cruiser in Schmeling. I guarantee that Mike does not need countless right hands like Max to stop him. A few will do. Remember Botha ? Tyson would be a laughing stock if he struggled with those tiny guys like Joe did. He made a career out of bouncing A to C level BIG skilled fighters like Berbick, Holmes,Spinks, Ruddock, Williams, Stewart etc etc around like ping pong balls.

Mike will easily match and probably outspeed him, chin is in another zipcode and Joes slow feet standing right in front of him ain't gonna help.

This will be a Tyson KO not matter how you are dicing or slicing it unless you use the shell of a shell fat ass who fought Lewis and then Mike better not get some clean shots in...........straight out of a time machine against a 86-88 prime Tyson it is going to be good nite early for Louis, again , no disrespect intended.

You seem to think that Louis's chin is pure glass.

The fact is that he was only stopped twice in 70+ profesional fights and both times it was after sustained beatings from elite punchers. Louis never actualy lost a fight because of his chin.

Dont forgett also that Louis fought ranked contenders than Mike Tyson by a ratio of 2 or 3 to one so that is more room to screw up/get dumped on your ass.

If Louis's chin was so bad why did nobody ever manage to capitalise on it?

Its not like the top fighters of the era wernt given enough oportunities.

[Holmes' Jab]

Louis, late stoppage.

[Holmes' Jab]

People may forget how scary and explosive Louis could be.


I'm 100% in agreement with your pick, but am curious as to why you reckon so early on? I think Tyson would start well and Louis would have to brave the odd difficult moment, but brave it out he would./ It'd be a fairly even contest up until the later rounds. I think Tyson would begin to wilt a little bit earlier, Louis then picks him off more and outguns/outwills Tyson to win via accumulation stoppage in a intriguing battle between the best two composite punchers in the divisions history.


Louis TKO9 Tyson.

[Holmes' Jab]

Louis is ahead!? What the hell kind of bullshit is that.


It's realistic bullshit, which sounds right to me. :good

[McGrain]

I see Louis's skills in making room for a punch the difference here, but I accept that it could go either way.

The main thing - imagine being ringside for this one? Imagine how electric it would be. Tyson getting ready to come out of one corner. Louis getting ready to come out of the other. I don't think you'd get an atmosphere close to it in any other imaginable fight. Seriously. These guys were the unbeateables who were beaten. I bet it would be hard to catch a breath waiting for round 1.

[Bummy Davis]

Joe would earn his respect imediately, as soon as Tyson came charging in Joe would counter and Jab...Louis would be content jabbing and taking his time but if Mike came in looking for a quick night he would feel the power and counter punching ability of the best power/combo puncher ever. I remember in a fight with Tony Tucker (who was a decent puncher at best) Tucker caught Tyson early with an uppercut and Tyson was a bit more carefull how he came in. Joe Louis is a different animal than most of Tyson's opponents and ofcourse Iron Mike was a formidable puncher but Tyson never got off the floor to win and only once stpped a trial horse past 8 rds.....Louis by Ko

[Holmes' Jab]

I think in terms of great punchers at heavyweight Liston-Tyson comes closest to this one in terms of anticipation. Both these fights would be unreal in terms of the event and the fight itself. If we're talking a fight in general Ali-Marciano would've been a boxoffice smash had they been around in same era, but for me Ali is just too good more or less every time in that one.

[GoldenChild]

It's realistic bullshit, which sounds right to me. :good
No it's not.

[janitor]

No it's not.

What is not realistic is to pick against any top 10 all time heavyweight with certainty.

Have you never seen Tyson Douglas?

[Primadonna Kool]

Joe Louis was not eqaul to Mike Tyson in any..any department. This is a short fight, a pure beat down.

Mike Tyson by KO in 3 rounds..

[BlackWater]

Tyson pressures him into the ground. Tyson inside 4

Tyson is too fast and too powerful.

[janitor]

Joe Louis was not eqaul to Mike Tyson in any..any department.

I would say he was equal or better in virtualy every department.

[GoldenChild]

What is not realistic is to pick against any top 10 all time heavyweight with certainty.

Have you never seen Tyson Douglas?

Yeah, I have. And with all things surrounding that fight, Tyson still almost knocked him out.
Louis fought nothing like Douglas. Was a small heavyweight, hittable and a very dentable chin.

[janitor]

Tyson pressures him into the ground. Tyson inside 4

Tyson is too fast and too powerful.

What makes you think that Louis was any less fast or powerfull?

[Seamus]

What is not realistic is to pick against any top 10 all time heavyweight with certainty.


thank you.

You can posit suspected pro's and con's, give various scenarios, but in the case of all-time greats you can not emphatically deny the possibility of victory for either.

put a gun to my head and i say Louis weathers a quick storm and beats down tyson over 7 rounds. however, if they fought ten times, tyson would surely take out louis at least once. so...

[janitor]

Yeah, I have. And with all things surrounding that fight, Tyson still almost knocked him out.
Louis fought nothing like Douglas. Was a small heavyweight, hittable and a very dentable chin.

My poit is that when you match a world class heavyweight against a great fighter the outcome is in doubt.

If you match two great fighters the result is positively unpredictable.

While I think Louis would win I would not bet £10 on it because we are matching the two most efective heavyweight punchers of all time and either guy can make a mistake.

[BlackWater]

What makes you think that Louis was any less fast or powerfull?

Honestly, I think power could be handed to either fighter in this circumstance, but how can you even questions Tyson's speed? He's easily top 5 all time both foot and hand speed.

[janitor]

Honestly, I think power could be handed to either fighter in this circumstance, but how can you even questions Tyson's speed? He's easily top 5 all time both foot and hand speed.

Speed is a funny thing.

While Tyson had slightly faster hands Louis threw much straighter and more compact punches which ment that the delivery time could be quicker.

Tyson had faster feet but I dont think he was necisarily a faster starter.

[GoldenChild]

My poit is that when you match a world class heavyweight against a great fighter the outcome is in doubt.

If you match two great fighters the result is positively unpredictable.

While I think Louis would win I would not bet £10 on it because we are matching the two most efective heavyweight punchers of all time and either guy can make a mistake.

As great as he was, I don't see any possible way Louis wins this. I can't trust his defense, chin or his mobility.

[Bokaj]

Louis's big advantages are his boxing brain, steel mentality and better long range boxing. But IMO Tyson's advantage in speed and power, coupled with his strong defense, is enough not to give Louis sufficient time and space to explot his own advantages. Tyson by early KO.

But I can see a case for Louis as well, of course. This is just my take.

[janitor]

As great as he was, I don't see any possible way Louis wins this. I can't trust his defense, chin or his mobility.

Then you lack imagination.

Louis as a puncher is every bit as destructive as Tyson and his area of expertese is using aresive fighters forward motion against them.

How is Tyson going to get away if Louis starts milling him?

Nobody is going to "get away" here and nobodys defence is going to save them from takiong a shed load of punioshment.

[Woddy]

I can't believe so many people are picking Louis. I thought the classic section was for those who knew boxing.

[janitor]

I can't believe so many people are picking Louis. I thought the classic section was for those who knew boxing.

It reflects the fact that people on the classic forum actualy know about fighters who were active before colour television came along.

They know that awsome as Tyson was in his prime it was just a case of history repeating itself.

[Woddy]

It reflects the fact that people on the classic forum actualy know about fighters who were active before colour television came along.

They know that awsome as Tyson was in his prime it was just a case of history repeating itself.

Tyson was better.

[janitor]

Tyson was better.

No he wasnt.

In as much as you can compare them, Louis was a far more complete all round package.

Tyson was almost one dimensional by comparison.

[GoldenChild]

How is Tyson going to get away if Louis starts milling him?

Tyson had incredible head movement and an iron chin.

[janitor]

Tyson had incredible head movement and an iron chin.

Neither is going to work when Louis brings the sub 12" shots to the party.

If Tyson is taking those then he is going to be in the same boat as Louis.

If Louis gets inside and Tyson cant fire back in the available space (as happened against Holyfield) then he is going to be in trouble quickly.

This is going to come down toi a duel with uzi's in a phone booth.

[GoldenChild]

Neither is going to work when Louis brings the sub 12" shots to the party.

If Tyson is taking those then he is going to be in the same boat as Louis.

If Louis gets inside and Tyson cant fire back in the available space (as happened against Holyfield) then he is going to be in trouble quickly.

This is going to come down toi a duel with uzi's in a phone booth.

Holyfield was able to tie him up effectively.

[janitor]

Holyfield was able to tie him up effectively.

Not just tie him up efectivley but also work inside his punching range.

Tyson only really had one serious weakness and it might surprize you.

He couldnt infight!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tyson was only ever really a mid range fighter with short arms.

Louis was one of the best infighters of all time and had similar proportions to Holyfield, but hit a lot harder. Like Holyfield he would be able to beat Tyson at long range (due to reach) and on the inside (due to his compact punching).

For Tyson to win he will have to dictate that the fight takes place at his optimum punching range. Louis of course will try to make sure that he dosnt.

This fight would be verry interesting indeed. Rather than call it now you should be queing up for a ticket.

[BlackWater]

Not just tie him up efectivley but also work inside his punching range.

Tyson only really had one serious weakness and it might surprize you.

He couldnt infight!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tyson was only ever really a mid range fighter with short arms.

Louis was one of the best infighters of all time and had similar proportions to Holyfield, but hit a lot harder. Like Holyfield he would be able to beat Tyson at long range (due to reach) and on the inside (due to his compact punching).

For Tyson to win he will have to dictate that the fight takes place at his optimum punching range. Louis of course will try to make sure that he dosnt.

This fight would be verry interesting indeed. Rather than call it now you should be queing up for a ticket.

The shitty version of Tyson couldn't infight, but prime Tyson always landed uppercuts and bobbed and landed hooks even at close range.

[janitor]

The shitty version of Tyson couldn't infight, but prime Tyson always landed uppercuts and bobbed and landed hooks even at close range.

He never quite shortened his punches like Louis and Dempsey though and more crucialy he never learned sustained compact punching.

Louis and Dempsey could throw short punches of 12" or less for the duration of the entire round if the target couldnt get away from them.

Iam sure Cus DaMatto had it in hand but he didnt live long enough to implement this last lesson.

[mcvey]

:lol:I can't believe so many people are picking Louis. I thought the classic section was for those who knew boxing.

Which begs the question,what are you doing here? :lol:

[sauhund II]

You seem to think that Louis's chin is pure glass.

The fact is that he was only stopped twice in 70+ profesional fights and both times it was after sustained beatings from elite punchers. Louis never actualy lost a fight because of his chin.

Dont forgett also that Louis fought ranked contenders than Mike Tyson by a ratio of 2 or 3 to one so that is more room to screw up/get dumped on your ass.

If Louis's chin was so bad why did nobody ever manage to capitalise on it?

Its not like the top fighters of the era wernt given enough oportunities.
By todays standard both Marciano and Schmelling are absolutly not elite heavyweight punchers , not even close. Max is no big puncher by ANY means............take away Marcianos wintermittens and his power diminshes GREATLY. I don't expect you to understand, it stands to reason that you never laced them up, not even for fun. How many SKILLED BIG MAN in the 220-250 class did they KO ? lol. How many does Mike have, 20 ?

One more time, was Tyson EVER wobbled , knocked down or flat out KO'ed by under 200 pound fighters ? Easy answer , never. If Louis runs into the same shot Frank Bruno nailed Tyson with while coming in it is by by Louis.Fact.

Louis was never hard to hit while Tyson was very dfficult to get shots on. He is to upright, rarely clinches, stands right in front of you, poor lateral movement , very dentable chin and physiclly weaker. In his entire career he has never fought a two fisted fireball like Tyson who has skill, power , speed and talent in spades. Tyson never had problems slipping BIG mans jabs or getting away from straight rights. This is not some dude straight out of the soup kitchen with no dough , a over the hill German who literally had the entire world against him or a stiff horrible technique clown with a decent punch who all posed in front of him. ANY movement gives Louis fits.

Again, much admiration for Louis and his accomplishments but putting that dinosaur straight out of a time machine against a true modern fighter (and probably next to Ali the most naturally gifted heavyweight ever) in Tyson and Joe is kissing the canvas and stays there.

[Flea Man]

Enzo stops them both of course. :lol:

Honestly, Tyson in the 1st or 2nd round. Not a good matchup for Joe, Prime Tyson had brilliant defensive skills, his slipping of punches meant he would find a way inside. Once inside, he had the chin to deal with whatever Louis is throwing at him, for as long as he needs to put The Brown Bomber away....which I suspect wouldn't be very long, even for a man as tough as Louis.

[mcvey]

By todays standard both Marciano and Schmelling are absolutly not elite heavyweight punchers , not even close. Max is no big puncher by ANY means............take away Marcianos wintermittens and his power diminshes GREATLY. I don't expect you to understand, it stands to reason that you never laced them up, not even for fun. How many SKILLED BIG MAN in the 220-250 class did they KO ? lol. How many does Mike have, 20 ?

One more time, was Tyson EVER wobbled , knocked down or flat out KO'ed by under 200 pound fighters ? Easy answer , never. If Louis runs into the same shot Frank Bruno nailed Tyson with while coming in it is by by Louis.Fact.

Louis was never hard to hit while Tyson was very dfficult to get shots on. He is to upright, rarely clinches, stands right in front of you, poor lateral movement , very dentable chin and physiclly weaker. In his entire career he has never fought a two fisted fireball like Tyson who has skill, power , speed and talent in spades. Tyson never had problems slipping BIG mans jabs or getting away from straight rights. This is not some dude straight out of the soup kitchen with no dough , a over the hill German who literally had the entire world against him or a stiff horrible technique clown with a decent punch who all posed in front of him. ANY movement gives Louis fits.

Again, much admiration for Louis and his accomplishments but putting that dinosaur straight out of a time machine against a true modern fighter (and probably next to Ali the most naturally gifted heavyweight ever) in Tyson and Joe is kissing the canvas and stays there.

As champion Tyson fought 7 men over 220 lbs.
Smith
Tucker
Biggs
Holmes
Tubbs
Bruno x2
Seldon
Smith and Tucker went the distance without being off their feet.
Biggs was tkod.
Holmes, way past his best was stopped
Tubbs was stopped but he was carrying 30lbs of his weight around his guts.
Seldon choked and quit
Bruno was scared to death

[Manassa]

Louis's big advantages are his boxing brain, steel mentality and better long range boxing.

This the first thought, but then you remember how quick off the mark Louis was in the Baer, Simon and Schmeling rematches.

[Manassa]

I'm 100% in agreement with your pick, but am curious as to why you reckon so early on? I think Tyson would start well and Louis would have to brave the odd difficult moment, but brave it out he would./ It'd be a fairly even contest up until the later rounds. I think Tyson would begin to wilt a little bit earlier, Louis then picks him off more and outguns/outwills Tyson to win via accumulation stoppage in a intriguing battle between the best two composite punchers in the divisions history.


Louis TKO9 Tyson.

I used to say the same thing, even down to TKO9. But then I imagined a slugfest and it seemed more exciting.

I could see Louis weathering a first round storm and then in the next frame, catching Tyson with a couple of table turning punches and stopping his momentum.

[Bokaj]

This the first thought, but then you remember how quick off the mark Louis was in the Baer, Simon and Schmeling rematches.

Sure. I just think that Louis looses out if they both go out fast and hard. And I think Louis also would have a hard time controlling Tyson from a distance in the early rounds if he chose that route.

[janitor]

[quote=sauhund II;3279494]By todays standard both Marciano and Schmelling are absolutly not elite heavyweight punchers , not even close. Max is no big puncher by ANY means............

I strongly disagree.

First let me say that power on its own isnt worth two buckets of warm spit. It is a combination of power, technique and delivery that makes an elite puncher. Three components forming a three leged stool.

Rocky Marciano probably had the greatest cumulative power over 15 rounds of any heavyweight in history. He could maintain a punch output aproaching that of Tua Ibeabuchi for another three rounds. He could also throw verry short deceptive punches in the mix.

Max Schmeling was the kind of puncher you simply dont get today. A defensive copunterpuncher with dynamite in both fists. Fighters normaly develop this style today because they lack power but they are alays able to sting well above their absolute kinetic energy. For want of a better analogy he would be like Chris Byrd with a solid heavyweight walop if he were arond today. Dont doubt that Schmeling caried serious power either. Some common oponents said that he hit harder than Joe Louis.

take away Marcianos wintermittens and his power diminshes GREATLY.

Marciano used the same 8 oz gloves that Sonny Liston and George Foreman used. If his power is greatly magnified by the gloves then theirs was too. Of course we know that George Foreman caried his power into the 90s verry well.

One more time, was Tyson EVER wobbled , knocked down or flat out KO'ed by under 200 pound fighters ? Easy answer , never.

He was stopped by a former cruiserweight called Evander Holyfield.

Holyfield almost certainly didnt hit as hard as Marciano or even Schmeling.


If Louis runs into the same shot Frank Bruno nailed Tyson with while coming in it is by by Louis.Fact.


A. Louis wouldnt get caught coming in because he would have made Bruno come to him.

B. Louis took shots from punchers who might have hit as hard as Frank Bruno or harder.

C. Louis was never stopped by a single shot from anybody in over 70 fights so there are no grounds for asuming that it could be done by Bruno, Foreman, Shavers or Ivan Drago.

Louis was never hard to hit while Tyson was very dfficult to get shots on. He is to upright, rarely clinches, stands right in front of you, poor lateral movement ,

Louis had a far more multi layered defence than Tyson.

Tyson could slip punches better than almost any heavyweight in history but that is all that he could do.

Louis employed shoulder rolls, parries, head movment, low crouches and Archie Moore style armadilo defence.

physiclly weaker.

How do you know that Louis was physicaly weaker?

What reason do you have to think that Tyson was even a particularly strong heavyweight?

In his entire career he has never fought a two fisted fireball like Tyson who has skill, power , speed and talent in spades.

And Tyson never fought anybody remotely like Louis so what is your point?

Oh sh1t there isnt anybody in any era remotely like Louis except Louis.

Tyson never had problems slipping BIG mans jabs or getting away from straight rights.

He never had them thrown at him by anybody as fast as Louis.

This is not some dude straight out of the soup kitchen with no dough , a over the hill German who literally had the entire world against him or a stiff horrible technique clown with a decent punch who all posed in front of him.

If you want to make disparaging comments about Louis's oponents we can start comparing them to the best fighters Tyson actualy beat and see who comes out of it better.


Again, much admiration for Louis and his accomplishments but putting that dinosaur straight out of a time machine against a true modern fighter (and probably next to Ali the most naturally gifted heavyweight ever) in Tyson and Joe is kissing the canvas and stays there.


You seem to be implying that Louis is in some way primitive but the reality is that he is the most technicaly complete heavyweight with a big punch from any era. I am sorry but number two dosnt even come close.

I would further suggest that Louis and not Tyson is the most naturaly gifted heavyweight next to Ali and perhaps even including Ali.

[ripcity]

[quote]

I strongly disagree.

First let me say that power on its own isnt worth two buckets of warm spit. It is a combination of power, technique and delivery that makes an elite puncher. Three components forming a three leged stool.

Rocky Marciano probably had the greatest cumulative power over 15 rounds of any heavyweight in history. He could maintain a punch output aproaching that of Tua Ibeabuchi for another three rounds. He could also throw verry short deceptive punches in the mix.

Max Schmeling was the kind of puncher you simply dont get today. A defensive copunterpuncher with dynamite in both fists. Fighters normaly develop this style today because they lack power but they are alays able to sting well above their absolute kinetic energy. For want of a better analogy he would be like Chris Byrd with a solid heavyweight walop if he were arond today. Dont doubt that Schmeling caried serious power either. Some common oponents said that he hit harder than Joe Louis.



Marciano used the same 8 oz gloves that Sonny Liston and George Foreman used. If his power is greatly magnified by the gloves then theirs was too. Of course we know that George Foreman caried his power into the 90s verry well.



He was stopped by a former cruiserweight called Evander Holyfield.

Holyfield almost certainly didnt hit as hard as Marciano or even Schmeling.



A. Louis wouldnt get caught coming in because he would have made Bruno come to him.

B. Louis took shots from punchers who might have hit as hard as Frank Bruno or harder.

C. Louis was never stopped by a single shot from anybody in over 70 fights so there are no grounds for asuming that it could be done by Bruno, Foreman, Shavers or Ivan Drago.



Louis had a far more multi layered defence than Tyson.

Tyson could slip punches better than almost any heavyweight in history but that is all that he could do.

Louis employed shoulder rolls, parries, head movment, low crouches and Archie Moore style armadilo defence.



How do you know that Louis was physicaly weaker?

What reason do you have to think that Tyson was even a particularly strong heavyweight?



And Tyson never fought anybody remotely like Louis so what is your point?

Oh sh1t there isnt anybody in any era remotely like Louis except Louis.



He never had them thrown at him by anybody as fast as Louis.



If you want to make disparaging comments about Louis's oponents we can start comparing them to the best fighters Tyson actualy beat and see who comes out of it better.



You seem to be implying that Louis is in some way primitive but the reality is that he is the most technicaly complete heavyweight with a big punch from any era. I am sorry but number two dosnt even come close.

I would further suggest that Louis and not Tyson is the most naturaly gifted heavyweight next to Ali and perhaps even including Ali.
Are you omplying that the worst guys Louis beat are better than the best Tyson beat?

[mr. magoo]

Joe Louis would have the skills needed to beat Tyson, IF the fight went into the later rounds, where Tyson had the tendency to lose steam and interest. The problem I have here, is that Louis would have to weather a very dangerous storm early. We can talk all we want about how he was only stopped twice in sustained beatings over many rounds, but that doesn't erase the fact that he was often suseptible to getting decked early as shown in his fights with Schmeling, Braddock, Baer, Galento, and Walcott. Great as these fighters may have been, none of them, and I mean NONE of them had the fast starting tendencies or dangerous punching abilties that Tyson had. In order for Louis to beat Tyson and land those lethal combos, he would literally have to stand directly in front of Tyson in his usual stationary stance. This would be an extremely parilous position for him to be in.

I have to pick Tyson by knockout.

[Hydraulix]

Joe Louis would have the skills needed to beat Tyson, IF the fight went into the later rounds, where Tyson had the tendency to lose steam and interest. The problem I have here, is that Louis would have to weather a very dangerous storm early. We can talk all we want about how he was only stopped twice in sustained beatings over many rounds, but that doesn't erase the fact that he was often suseptible to getting decked early as shown in his fights with Schmeling, Braddock, Baer, Galento, and Walcott. Great as these fighters may have been, none of them, and I mean NONE of them had the fast starting tendencies or dangerous punching abilties that Tyson had. In order for Louis to beat Tyson and land those lethal combos, he would literally have to stand directly in front of Tyson in his usual stationary stance. This would be an extremely parilous position for him to be in.

I have to pick Tyson by knockout.

I can't help but agree. I think Louis would definitely find himself on the canvas during the early rounds. However, depending on the quality of his chin, he would get back up in Tyson's face despite the knockdowns, and this would frustrate Tyson, and he'd be ready to quit.

Joe had a good chin, but the closest thing to Tyson that he fought was Marciano. To me, it all depends on Louis' chin. If he could survive the early knockdowns, then he's gonna put a whoopin' on Mike later.

[Bokaj]

Joe Louis would have the skills needed to beat Tyson, IF the fight went into the later rounds, where Tyson had the tendency to lose steam and interest. The problem I have here, is that Louis would have to weather a very dangerous storm early. We can talk all we want about how he was only stopped twice in sustained beatings over many rounds, but that doesn't erase the fact that he was often suseptible to getting decked early as shown in his fights with Schmeling, Braddock, Baer, Galento, and Walcott. Great as these fighters may have been, none of them, and I mean NONE of them had the fast starting tendencies or dangerous punching abilties that Tyson had. In order for Louis to beat Tyson and land those lethal combos, he would literally have to stand directly in front of Tyson in his usual stationary stance. This would be an extremely parilous position for him to be in.

I have to pick Tyson by knockout.

This is how I see it as well.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;3281338]
Are you omplying that the worst guys Louis beat are better than the best Tyson beat?

No I am saying tht the best guys Louis beat are better than the best guys Tyson beat.

ie, Baer, Schmeling and Walcott are better than Berbick, Spinks, old Holmes etc.

[Bokaj]

I can't help but agree. I think Louis would definitely find himself on the canvas during the early rounds. However, depending on the quality of his chin, he would get back up in Tyson's face despite the knockdowns, and this would frustrate Tyson, and he'd be ready to quit.

Joe had a good chin, but the closest thing to Tyson that he fought was Marciano. To me, it all depends on Louis' chin. If he could survive the early knockdowns, then he's gonna put a whoopin' on Mike later.

Everytime Tyson decked someone early he finished him. Yes, I know that none of them were Louis. But the big difference between Louis and most of Tyson's opponents was Louis's mental strength and offense, not his chin and defence.

[janitor]

Joe Louis would have the skills needed to beat Tyson, IF the fight went into the later rounds, where Tyson had the tendency to lose steam and interest. The problem I have here, is that Louis would have to weather a very dangerous storm early. We can talk all we want about how he was only stopped twice in sustained beatings over many rounds, but that doesn't erase the fact that he was often suseptible to getting decked early as shown in his fights with Schmeling, Braddock, Baer, Galento, and Walcott. Great as these fighters may have been, none of them, and I mean NONE of them had the fast starting tendencies or dangerous punching abilties that Tyson had. In order for Louis to beat Tyson and land those lethal combos, he would literally have to stand directly in front of Tyson in his usual stationary stance. This would be an extremely parilous position for him to be in.

I have to pick Tyson by knockout.

This is certainly the most logicaly sound case for Tyson outlined so far.

While I disagree with your overall prediction I dont take issue with any of the points you outlined.

[Hydraulix]

Everytime Tyson decked someone early he finished him. Yes, I know that none of them were Louis. But the big difference between Louis and most of Tyson's opponents was Louis's mental strength and offense, not his chin and defence.

Good point. I like how you think. :smooch

I could definitely envision Tyson hurting Louis. This would have definitely been an exciting fight to watch!! Too bad we'll never know for sure.

[sauhund II]

[quote=ripcity;3282701]

No I am saying tht the best guys Louis beat are better than the best guys Tyson beat.

ie, Baer, Schmeling and Walcott are better than Berbick, Spinks, old Holmes etc.
Dude, give it a rest..........you have me laughing on my back if you believe that Schmeling, Walcot or Baer would give Tyson any trouble what - so- ever. The first two don't make out of the first and the big oaf might , and that is a big if, make it into the third and that was that.

Did those fighters achieve more from a historical standpoint ? Possible, but head to head against Mike those are total mis matches.

There are some guys who will give Tyson big trouble or beat him but it ain't (including Joe Louis) any of those three you mentioned.

BTW, for the rest of your old timer loving, let me repeat one more time that Tyson would be absolutly cruzified and ridiculed if he would have been knocked down or hurt by tomatoe cans like Galento or Braddock.................and in regards to Holyfield I would not call the off balance solar shot a great knock down and he had to throw the entire kitchen arsenal at a tired /severely declined Tyson (who was never ready to go the championship rounds after prison due to inferior/lazy training) and still could not get him off his feet.........there is your great cruiser weight "old timer" punching power.

[janitor]

[quote=sauhund II;3286257][quote=janitor;3282855]
Dude, give it a rest..........you have me laughing on my back if you believe that Schmeling, Walcot or Baer would give Tyson any trouble what - so- ever.


You have me laughing on my back if you think that James Douglas would give Joe Louis any trouble whatsoever at his physical peak.

Regardless of whether Tyson would have beaten these fighters they are still better than any that Tyson beat in the ring as oposed to in a fantasy matchup.

That is not a point that should be skirted over incidentaly. Louis beat the best put in front of himuntill age and his physical condition prevented it. Tysons head to head status rests to some extent on what might have been.


The first two don't make out of the first and the big oaf might , and that is a big if, make it into the third and that was that.

Did those fighters achieve more from a historical standpoint ? Possible, but head to head against Mike those are total mis matches.


Jersey Joe Walcott is one of the most elusive heavyweights from any era and he generaly didnt need knee braces. It is highly unlikley that Tyson would get him in the first round.

If Walcott could make it out of round six then all bets would be off.

Max Baer was as durable as Donovan Ruddock, hit as hardas Frank Bruno, and threw a lot more punches back than either so I dont think Tyson is having an easy time with him. The only way Tyson is stopping him early is if Baer decides to taker a knee to avoid further punishment.


There are some guys who will give Tyson big trouble or beat him but it ain't (including Joe Louis) any of those three you mentioned.


Yet they do include much worse fighters like Tubbs, Tills, Tucker, Douglas Ruddock. Even Holyfield is not in Louis's class as a puncher.

Get it through your head that Tyson was not some invincible alien in his prime. He could be troubled by some average fighters and beraten by good fighters.

BTW, for the rest of your old timer loving, let me repeat one more time that Tyson would be absolutly cruzified and ridiculed if he would have been knocked down or hurt by tomatoe cans like Galento or Braddock.................

You are calling the curent champion and the No4 contender tomato cans?

I guess by that logic James Douglas was a tomato can going into the Tyson fight yet Tyson gets a pass for loosing to a 42/1 underdog in his absolute physical prime because he was unfocused.

I might as well argue that Louis was unfocused when he was dropped by Braddock and Gallento yet he still found a way to win despite the fact that his mother wasnt there to hold him. When it comes to having his shortcomings in the ring excused Tyson TKOs any oldtimer.


and in regards to Holyfield I would not call the off balance solar shot a great knock down and he had to throw the entire kitchen arsenal at a tired /severely declined Tyson (who was never ready to go the championship rounds after prison due to inferior/lazy training) and still could not get him off his feet.........there is your great cruiser weight "old timer" punching power.


I could just as easily argue that Louis was unfocused/green and tired due to lazy training when he was stopped by Schmeling, yet Schmeling still had to wail away on him for 12 rounds.

If you swaped the referres from Louis/Schmeling I and Tyson/Holyfield I, then it is likley that Louis would have been TKOd before the 12th round, and Tyson would have been alowed to continue untill he was counted out.

I could also argue that he was old and unfocused and tired due to lazy training when Marciano sopped him yet still Marciano had to throw everything except the kitchen sink at him for eight rounds.

Or we could agree that they were both just stopped.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Chin, Yep Louis got knocked down a few times but out side of one fight wasn't' hurt. And Schmelling lambasted that shaky chin for a hell of a lot of rounds, back when Louis still had that lazy jab and wasn't really in shape being a party animal.

Two Ton Tony Galanto was ranked number 2 for that fight.

Louis did admit that he didn't like being pressured...Like saying Rock might have beaten him in his prime too. Then Tyson too....if Tyson could do 15.
Blackburn vs Cuz is the trick.
Louis drew them in with his little back shuffle.

This is harder than I thought, but Louis gets Tyson tapes and Louis was absoulte murder on a second fight....that makes it even.
Louis's jab is top 6 heavy all time at least.
I'll go with Louis getting up off his ass, and Ko'ing Tyson in the Championship rounds,say round 14, in a grueling fight.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Louis never fought anyone big....Well someone never looked up the records.
Primo Carera 260
Max Baer 210 who was considered big for then.
Two ton Toney Gallento 233
Abe Simons 2 x-@254
Buddy Baer 2x 237 and 250

[mr. magoo]

This is certainly the most logicaly sound case for Tyson outlined so far.

While I disagree with your overall prediction I dont take issue with any of the points you outlined.

Well, if I had my preference as to who I'd rather see win, it would be Joe Louis. Joe is the better fighter by far, but for stylistic reasons, I think he may have some problems here.

[Hydraulix]

Everytime Tyson decked someone he finished him.

Not Buster Douglas. :nono If Douglas could survive a knockdown from Tyson, then I'm certain that Joe Louis would.

[Bokaj]

Not Buster Douglas. :nono If Douglas could survive a knockdown from Tyson, then I'm certain that Joe Louis would.

Hey, if you quote me, don't edit the qoute. I wrote that Tyson finished everyone he floored early. You edited that from the quote.

[$.02]

People are disregarding Louis's combos and his speed. Also, you guys need tpo watch some film of this man before you even talk about how he would knocked out early!

This fight would be too tough for me to call and i am a 80's baby. You would assume that i am like the rest from my generation that would yell "tyson by knockout" but it aint so.

[GoldenChild]

Also, you guys need tpo watch some film of this man before you even talk about how he would knocked out early!

I did and thought "Tyson would knock him the fuck out. "

[janitor]

People are disregarding Louis's combos and his speed. Also, you guys need tpo watch some film of this man before you even talk about how he would knocked out early!


So who was the early knockout king Louis or Tyson?

There is a lot of talk here about Tyson scoring an early knockout which implies that he was better than Louis in the early rounds.

Lets see how this asumption stands up to scrutiny.

World class fighters they stopped in the first round

Louis

Stanley Porreda
King Levinsky
Max Schmeling (lineal champion)
John Henry Lewis (lineal champion)
Buddy Baer (bigger than any world class fighter Tyson managed to put away early)
Tami Maurellio

Tyson

Michael Spinks (lineal champion)
Carl Williams
Alex Stewart
Orlin Noris
Bruce Seldon (lay down)

World class fighters they stopped in the second to third round

Louis

Charlie Massera
Lee Ramage
Red Barry
Jack Sharkey (lineal champion)
Nathan Mann
Gus Dorazio

Tyson

Trevor Berbick
Tony Tubbs
Frank Bruno
Andrew Golotta

Conclusion

There are no grounds for saying that Mike Tyson was more efective at finishing oponents in the early rounds than Joe Louis. They are about opn a par and Louis might just be a bit better.

[leverage]

tysons right over louis left, k.o in 3.

[sauhund II]

Louis never fought anyone big....Well someone never looked up the records.
Primo Carera 260
Max Baer 210 who was considered big for then.
Two ton Toney Gallento 233
Abe Simons 2 x-@254
Buddy Baer 2x 237 and 250
I don't have to look up the records................I happen to know about those guys and the ONLY reason those guys get ever mentioned is to support the old timers argument. The only one out of your sample who can box a bit is Primo, the rest are cannonfoddrr by todays standards.

Lets turn the tables, if you would transfer your list of big oafs out of a time machine to fight the top dogs in the division, currently WK/VK, it would create a public outrage.......HBO would never fund those fights, no way no how. Insert Tyson or Louis here and you have a blockbuster. Get my drift ? Do you think the phrase"bum of the month" was a compliment boxing commenators gave Joe ?

[janitor]

[quote=sauhund II;3292440]I don't have to look up the records................I happen to know about those guys and the ONLY reason those guys get ever mentioned is to support the old timers argument. The only one out of your sample who can box a bit is Primo, the rest are cannonfoddrr by todays standards.


Did Tyson ever actualy beat a world class fighter as big as Primo Carnera or Buddy Baer?

Did he ever beat a fighter that size with good all round boxing skills.

Lets turn the tables, if you would transfer your list of big oafs out of a time machine to fight the top dogs in the division, currently WK/VK, it would create a public outrage.......HBO would never fund those fights, no way no how.

How many top heavyweights today apart from the Klitschko brothers are actualy as good as Primo Carnera or Buddy Baer?

Sam Peter obviously isn.

Do you think the phrase"bum of the month" was a compliment boxing commenators gave Joe ?

Actualy it was a compliment if you understand the history behind it.

The term did not imply that these fighters were bad but that they were not in Louis's league. The same comentators who coined the term "bum of the month" knew that some of these guys would be champions if Louis wasnt around.

[janitor]

I did and thought "Tyson would knock him the fuck out. "

I dont think you have "thought" much at all about this matchup.

[zadfrak]

Louis may have had the best corner the sport has ever seen. And they always had their guy ready and scrutinized opponents. Tyson had guys that held the spit bucket and collected checks. Huge huge advantage for Louis and just how often do the great corners get beat by the woefully inferior ones?

[Bokaj]

Louis may have had the best corner the sport has ever seen. And they always had their guy ready and scrutinized opponents. Tyson had guys that held the spit bucket and collected checks. Huge huge advantage for Louis and just how often do the great corners get beat by the woefully inferior ones?

Don't think many will agree with you that Rooney did no more than so.

[zadfrak]

What great tactics and preperations did the trainer Rooney do for that Smith fight? A wide swinging 1dimensional guy with a zero gastank as opposition. Smith was badly outboxed for 9 rounds by Bruno and had those Frazier/Witherspoon 1/Holmes/bouts for his what, 20 fights? A way to beat the guy had already been established, it wasn't as if Rooney had a force to break down.

Any great trainer should be able to cope with the tools of a Bonecrusher Smith, right? It's hardly insurmountable & Tyson held every advantage possible except physical strength.

[Bokaj]

What great tactics and preperations did the trainer Rooney do for that Smith fight? A wide swinging 1dimensional guy with a zero gastank as opposition. Smith was badly outboxed for 9 rounds by Bruno and had those Frazier/Witherspoon 1/Holmes/bouts for his what, 20 fights? A way to beat the guy had already been established, it wasn't as if Rooney had a force to break down.

Any great trainer should be able to cope with the tools of a Bonecrusher Smith, right? It's hardly insurmountable & Tyson held every advantage possible except physical strength.

And what does it many that Louis was out-thought by Schmeling? That Louis's corner wasn't any good? His tactics weren't quite spot on for Conn or Walcott either, were they?

There's always going to exist such instances to point to. What matters is that both Louis and Tyson had good corners in Blackburn and Rooney.

[zadfrak]

Disagree. If you call Rooney good, what adjectives would describe Blackburn and his assistant Seamon?

As for the Schmeling loss, that fight sure was awful awful early in the career of an up and comer. Not many guys are taking on that live of an opponent that early in their career. Plus, go look at what that Joe Louis corner did > that defeat.

[Shake]

Some of the pro-tyson crowd are doing a great disservice to Louis.


A chin is a chin -- and a punch is a punch. Louis punched hard, short, and thus often caught people hard coming in with shorter punches.

I have a hard time thinking that all the accolades Louis was bestowed in his time were due to mass hysteria.

He hits Mike, Mike is hurt. Drop the notion this is a mis-match. This isn't the Big League against the Lower League. Louis is a frightening fighter to be up against.

I think Tyson stops Louis in the middle rounds. Incidentally, I believe he loses a decision to Walcott.

[Bokaj]

Disagree. If you call Rooney good, what adjectives would describe Blackburn and his assistant Seamon?

As for the Schmeling loss, that fight sure was awful awful early in the career of an up and comer. Not many guys are taking on that live of an opponent that early in their career. Plus, go look at what that Joe Louis corner did > that defeat.

Blackburn may well have been better than Rooney, but you claimed that Tyson's help from the corner was more or less non-existent, and that was just not the case during Rooney's time. If you can't accept this I'm not going to wast anymore time on you.

[mr. magoo]

Some of the pro-tyson crowd are doing a great disservice to Louis.


A chin is a chin -- and a punch is a punch. Louis punched hard, short, and thus often caught people hard coming in with shorter punches.

I have a hard time thinking that all the accolades Louis was bestowed in his time were due to mass hysteria.

He hits Mike, Mike is hurt. Drop the notion this is a mis-match. This isn't the Big League against the Lower League. Louis is a frightening fighter to be up against.

I think Tyson stops Louis in the middle rounds. Incidentally, I believe he loses a decision to Walcott.


Well, the concencus has clearly favored Louis and by a long shot. I myself voted for Tyson, but I am well aware that it can go the other way.

[ripcity]

Louis may have had the best corner the sport has ever seen. And they always had their guy ready and scrutinized opponents. Tyson had guys that held the spit bucket and collected checks. Huge huge advantage for Louis and just how often do the great corners get beat by the woefully inferior ones?

Mike Tyson and Kevin Rooney may have been one of the best boxer/trainer combo's in boxing.

[janitor]

And what does it many that Louis was out-thought by Schmeling? That Louis's corner wasn't any good? His tactics weren't quite spot on for Conn or Walcott either, were they?


To be fair to Blackburn:

He warned Louis that Schmeling would try to use his overhand right to counter him.

He told Louis not to try to reduce weight for the Conn fight. Then when everything was going to ratshit he told Louis exactly wich punch to catch Conn with.

He was dead when Louis fought Walcott.

Louis didnt always listen to his corner and he ocasionaly got stung as a result.

[Bokaj]

To be fair to Blackburn:

He warned Louis that Schmeling would try to use his overhand right to counter him.

He told Louis not to try to reduce weight for the Conn fight. Then when everything was going to ratshit he told Louis exactly wich punch to catch Conn with.

He was dead when Louis fought Walcott.

Louis didnt always listen to his corner and he ocasionaly got stung as a result.


My point was that you can't attribute one bad perfomance to the trainer, and not that Blackburn was a bad trainer. He clearly was anything but.

[anon1]

Louis TKO 9.

Louis' punches were more consistently compact & straight than Tyson's. Louis would plan and time his more compact punches to counter Tyson. With this, he'd keep beating Tyson to the punch despite not having an advantage in handspeed (just like Holyfield). Yes, Louis didn't have a chin as good as Mike Tyson's but don't count on a few punches to win the fight against Joe Louis.

[Bill Butcher]

Everyone has a style that is bad for them, Tyson `might` have had the style & attributes to beat Louis, one of my dream matches as anything could happen.

Joe may have went down a few times in his career but he recovered very well - even vs Schmelling he was done a few rds before he actually stayed down - but prime Tyson aint no Schmelling & thats why I lean ever so slightly towards Mike Tyson.

[anon1]

- but prime Tyson aint no Schmelling .

exactly. schmelling would have put up a better fight against evander holyfield. has mike tyson ever consistently countered a contender level fighter? no. too many people consider mike tyson's physical talents but overlook his lack of strategy in the ring to beat ATG fighters like louis.

it's OK if tyson lost to douglas and holyfield. i won't go into the "every decent fighter he faced he lost" ROFL. what's not ok is that tyson showed very little progress to change strategy and stand up to the challenge against douglas or holyfield. he just confusedly took a beating for the most part. that's a serious question mark when going against ATGs.

[sauhund II]

[QUOTE]


Did Tyson ever actualy beat a world class fighter as big as Primo Carnera or Buddy Baer?

Did he ever beat a fighter that size with good all round boxing skills.



How many top heavyweights today apart from the Klitschko brothers are actualy as good as Primo Carnera or Buddy Baer?

Sam Peter obviously isn.



Actualy it was a compliment if you understand the history behind it.

The term did not imply that these fighters were bad but that they were not in Louis's league. The same comentators who coined the term "bum of the month" knew that some of these guys would be champions if Louis wasnt around.
LOL @ you.

You are not a boxing fan you fancy debates. That is the only reason you post here.

Buddy Baer or Primo world class ? Yeah when methusalem was around ..........

[janitor]

[quote=sauhund II;3300528]
LOL @ you.
You are not a boxing fan you fancy debates. That is the only reason you post here.


I enjoy a good debate, and I am good at it due to my background, but I am pasionate about boxing history, as anybody here will tell you.

The thing that you will soon understand about me, is that while most people start today and look backwards in time, I start in about 1910 and look forwards.

Understand that and all will be clear.

[anon1]

[quote]
I start in about 1910 and look forwards.

how old are you?

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;3304630]

how old are you?

30

[ChrisPontius]

Do you think the phrase"bum of the month" was a compliment boxing commenators gave Joe ?

Actually, it was a play of words on a similar phrase of the time, which i have forgotten for the moment. The meaning behind it was that he disposed of his opponents so quickly, not that they were "bums".

[sauhund II]

Actually, it was a play of words on a similar phrase of the time, which i have forgotten for the moment. The meaning behind it was that he disposed of his opponents so quickly, not that they were "bums".
BS, forget about newspaper clippings, once you spend some time in boxing circles with old timers you will hear exactly what I posted before, they called them BUMS. period aka no respect aka cannonfodder aka no challenge aka gimme fights.

[ChrisPontius]

BS, forget about newspaper clippings, once you spend some time in boxing circles with old timers you will hear exactly what I posted before, they called them BUMS. period aka no respect aka cannonfodder aka no challenge aka gimme fights.

Okay, i guess what people say afterward is the real meaning instead of what they said at the time. :patsch

[janitor]

BS, forget about newspaper clippings, once you spend some time in boxing circles with old timers you will hear exactly what I posted before, they called them BUMS. period aka no respect aka cannonfodder aka no challenge aka gimme fights.

Joe Louis and Muhamad Ali had an argument once about who would have won if they had fought in their primes. Ali criticised Louis's opposition:

"You had the bum of the month club"

Louis replied.

"Yes kid you would have been one of them"

Now whether or not that is literaly true the point is valid. The bum of the month club were fighters in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They were the best challengers available for Louis and if he had never been born then two or more of them would have been the lineal heavyweight champion.

[hermeneut]

Joe Louis and Muhamad Ali had an argument once about who would have won if they had fought in their primes. Ali criticised Louis's opposition:

"You had the bum of the month club"

Louis replied.

"Yes kid you would have been one of them"

Now whether or not that is literaly true the point is valid. The bum of the month club were fighters in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They were the best challengers available for Louis and if he had never been born then two or more of them would have been the lineal heavyweight champion.

Janitor, or anyone, I wonder what you make of Archie Moore's use of the expression "bum a month." Check Fitzgerald's "Ageless Warrior" where Moore is cited as saying that Louis fought a "bum a month" and further says he himself fought a "bum a week." See page 147. The book is in GoogleBooks online.

The context seems to suggest Moore is claiming he (and Louis) lasted as long as they did fighting "bums" (though Moore claims he lasted longer fighting a "bum a week!") which certainly seems to be a negative description of their opponents. In fact, Moore asks who did Louis fight?

If those citations are accurate, perhaps there is something to learn about the meaning of the expression.

[janitor]

Janitor, or anyone, I wonder what you make of Archie Moore's use of the expression "bum a month." Check Fitzgerald's "Ageless Warrior" where Moore is cited as saying that Louis fought a "bum a month" and further says he himself fought a "bum a week." See page 147. The book is in GoogleBooks online.

The context seems to suggest Moore is claiming he (and Louis) lasted as long as they did fighting "bums" (though Moore claims he lasted longer fighting a "bum a week!") which certainly seems to be a negative description of their opponents. In fact, Moore asks who did Louis fight?

If those citations are accurate, perhaps there is something to learn about the meaning of the expression.

Can you find a better set of potential oponents that either man could have fought?

Look at the rankings and you will see that the bum of the month clubs were the best around at the time.

Bum of the month = born at the wrong time.

[MrMagic]

Bad matchup for Joe Louis.

He's still the greater fighter.

Tyson KO mid-rds, different eras, different physiques

[BUDW]

Louis left hook ko in short order,Tyson couldnt beat a Fighter of Joe's ability Tyson only won when he could intimidate his opponet

[Axl_Nose]

Tyson was an awesome 4 round fighter like Dempsey but after that he wasnt such a threat. Louis on the other hand was the greatest heavyweight thats ever lived with Ali. His power, the leverage he got on his punches and his 'genuine' class would take out Tyson late on .. Louis had a technical problem against Schmelling in that he dropped his left hand when he threw his right, thats how Schmelling beat him but the rematch was probably the most brutal 2 minutes in the history of the heavyweight division .. Tyson doesnt compare to Louis, in fact Tyson was a very average fighter compared to Louis, if Tyson had serious 'Class' it would have lasted more than 4 years .. Tyson's reign was far too short to compare him to Louis or Ali