Lennox's chin - for once and for all

[fists of fury]

Was it bad? Was it good? Was it somewhere in between?

The amount of spin from Lewis fans and detractors on this site about his chin is quite amazing.
I think it was no more than average, and below average at world class level.
My reasoning is simple: No other ATG heavyweight has ever been knocked out cold with a single punch.

Arguments to the contrary are welcome. :good

[Holmes' Jab]

It was neither granite, nor china. In fact pretty solid truth be told.

The Rahman right hand in the first fight was a peach- right on the money. He caught Lewis underprepared, overconfident and on the ropes guard down, though that doesn't take anything away from his victory. Other great HW's would have perhaps struggled to recover from that shot. Lewis was a tad hard done by not being allowed to continue in the first McCall fight.

Two knockout defeats from 40-odd fights, many vs Heavy enough hitters isn't that disasterous. Lewis also took big shots from Tyson, Tua, Briggs and Bruno etc , etc and didn't go down.

[fists of fury]

Fair comment, but did Tyson, Ruddock, Tua or Briggs hit him with their money shots? What would have happened had they?

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis fought more big punchers than any other heavyweight in history except for Ali and Louis. He was knocked out twice, once before refining his style and once at the age of 35, when 90% of the other heavyweights are washed up.

He took flush shots from Briggs, Tua, Bruno, Tyson (still powerful), Grant, Morrison, Holyfield and Mason. Ruddock is the only big puncher who didn't manage to land.

Only Tunney (And Vitali Klitschko if you count the ring magazine champion) of the linear champions can claim to have been knocked down fewer times, and Tunney did not exactly have a long career at heavyweight against big punchers.

He didn't have an iron chin but his chin held up 95% of the time nethertheless. And when it didn't, unfocusedness also played a role.

[Stewbear]

Fair comment, but did Tyson, Ruddock, Tua or Briggs hit him with their money shots? What would have happened had they?

:good

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[Doppleganger]

Fair comment, but did Tyson, Ruddock, Tua or Briggs hit him with their money shots? What would have happened had they? Well, let's see:
Tyson hit Lewis with what looked like a full blooded left hook in round 1
Briggs hit Lewis a few times and staggered him with the left hook
Tua hit Lewis with what looked like a full blooded left hook in round 6So the answer aside from Ruddock is yes. The only reason Ruddock didn't hit Lewis with his 'smash' is because he never got a chance to.

Moreover Lewis was only knocked out cold once and IMO the effects of altitude had some bearing on that. He got up against McCall if you recall but was unfairly not allowed to see if he could continue.

Lewis's chin was a solid B IMO. It wasn't rock solid but it was reliable enough for him to go 14 years, fighting a succession of big punchers and only be knocked down twice. If we reduce this argument to a set of statistics then in 44 fights Lewis was only knocked down twice. So, he had a less than 5% chance of being knocked down. I don't want to even calculate how many power shots Lewis took in his career but it is certainly much more than 44, which would make the above percentage a lot smaller, likely less than 0.5% IMO. The bottom line is, if Lewis really did have a glass jaw surely those percentages would have been a lot higher. That's logic and common sense to me and I can't see how anyone else can argue otherwise.

[DamonD]

Tyson hit Lewis with what looked like a full blooded left hook in round 1
And his best shot of the night with a short left hook in the 3rd.
Tua hit Lewis with what looked like a full blooded left hook in round 6
Two in a row, as it happens. The impact was enough to knock Lewis back, but not down (or even looking dazed, actually).

I can say, off the top of my head because I know anal trivia stats like this, that in Lewis's 18 title fights combined he's take in the region of about 1,350 punches or so. I have the exact number in a file at home. And he had 26 other non-title efforts, including the 223 he took from Mercer and so on...

I would have to rate it as decent. Not great, not iron or anything, but decent.
He simply couldn't go in there with so many opponents, many of them noted punches, and do so well for so long without having a decent beard unless he was the greatest defensive master that HW boxing has ever seen.

And while I think Lewis's defence is indeed notably good, that one I can't buy.

[Mendoza]

Was it bad? Was it good? Was it somewhere in between?

The amount of spin from Lewis fans and detractors on this site about his chin is quite amazing.
I think it was no more than average, and below average at world class level.
My reasoning is simple: No other ATG heavyweight has ever been knocked out cold with a single punch.

Arguments to the contrary are welcome. :good

Good is out of the question. Bad is up for debate. On a scale of 1 to 10, with ten being the best and one being the worst, I say Lewis’ chin was about a 5.5. Most heavyweights are suspect to power punchers.

Lewis was Ko’d twice by one punch, but he also took some hard shots from the likes of Bruno, Briggs, Tyson, and Kiltschko. Lewis fought in a timeline full of heavy hitters. In the grand scheme of things, 2 knockouts in 44 professional fights are not so bad. In fact, it’s better than average. Fans unfair label Lewis with a glass jaw. Those with glass jaws at the very least go down from the shots Bruno, Briggs, Tyson, and Kltischko landed.

[fists of fury]

Would you guys rate his chin as better than say, Michael Moorer's?

[McGrain]

Lewis fought more big punchers than any other heavyweight in history except for Ali and Louis. He was knocked out twice, once before refining his style and once at the age of 35, when 90% of the other heavyweights are washed up.

He took flush shots from Briggs, Tua, Bruno, Tyson (still powerful), Grant, Morrison, Holyfield and Mason. Ruddock is the only big puncher who didn't manage to land.

Only Tunney (And Vitali Klitschko if you count the ring magazine champion) of the linear champions can claim to have been knocked down fewer times, and Tunney did not exactly have a long career at heavyweight against big punchers.

He didn't have an iron chin but his chin held up 95% of the time nethertheless. And when it didn't, unfocusedness also played a role.

Anyone reading shit in general abot Lewis' chin should just cut and paste the above answer. Chris has nailed the details of Lennox's chin over and over again, not least when he did his excellent "puncher's faced" thread.

Lennox had a good chin. It's likely he had one of the weakest chins on your top ten heavyweight list but it was still good.

The whole notion of a dominant heavyweight champ of the world having a "china chin" is nonsensical. Totally counter-inuative and for a reason.

[Bummy Davis]

Lewis can be compared to Vlad Klitschko in the respect that if not warmed, Like he was not vs McCall any fighter could be KO'd, and if not in tip top shape like with Rahman any fighter can be KO;d, in Lewis's case he did not get up and if he did he was done anyway, In Klitschko's case, he got off the floor but was done, in 2 fights he was spent and in 1 fight(Sanders) he did not warm up. Manny Stewart and both fighter learned something from all this, these BIG men should fight behind there size and Jab and wait for the opportunity( Lewis wacked Tua enough to keep him at bay) and out boxed Tua, Vlad did it to Peter and gave him the Bowllegged dance in the 12th. I think a warmed up version of Lewis took a good punch(Vitali,Evander,Mercer,Tyson)((same with Vlad and these men along with Vitali were head and shoulders over the other BIG men in history

[Sizzle]

I rate his chin about 6/10, and would say it's "good"

I've seen him take some big hits, although he was indeed hit with two exceptional shots from McCall and Rahman.

But yeh, you can't really say anyone who's been put down with a single punch has a "granite" chin.

I don't think Tysons punching was even half as effective as it was around '88, even in terms of raw power. He was too muscular for his stature, and couldn't get the same sort of force behind his punches.

[Holmes' Jab]

Would you guys rate his chin as better than say, Michael Moorer's?

Yes

[Jack]

I rate it pretty highly. More than say, Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey.

As bad as the knockout losses were, they can be put down to him being unaware of the punches coming, as opposed to him just not being able to take the punches. If you look at his fight with Klitschko, who was a much harder hitter than McCall or Rahman, he takes a fantastic right, straight on the jaw, but doesn't go down. he was hurt, sure, but he knew it was coming.

Some of the punches he took were bigger than the ones he was KOed by. As bzaree as it sounds, when it comes to judging his chin, maybe the losses shouild be completely ignored? I don't think they were a reflection of how strong a punch he could take, but more about his overconifence and lackadaisical attitude against inferior fighters.

Looking at the punches he took from very hard htiters such as Tua, Klitschko or Tyson is fairer I think.

If McCall or Chuvalo are 10/10, Ali is 9/10, I'd say Lewis was a 7 or maybe an 8. Nowhere near as bad as it is made out to be, but as Klitschko showed, it was possible to hurt him badly.

[ChrisPontius]

Would you guys rate his chin as better than say, Michael Moorer's?

Moorer got knocked out cold by every decent heavyweight puncher he faced.


And that's doing him a favor in calling the old Foreman a puncher because other than Moorer, he didn't knock anyone of note out in his comeback.
Holyfield dropped him in the first match and knocked him out in the rematch.

Lewis, on the other had, faced 12+ hard punchers, lost twice but avenged both of them by returning the favor.


There's no comparison really, they're not even close. One of them lost to 80% of the punchers he faced, the other lost to 8% of the punchers he faced.

[fists of fury]

There's no comparison really, they're not even close. One of them lost to 80% of the punchers he faced, the other lost to 8% of the punchers he faced.

To be fair though, there are a zillion other factors that come into play here.

[Amsterdam]

He was only down twice, but it's quality and not quantity. Louis at his best was never KTFO with a single shot. Louis' chin could be qualified as "average".

It's not china, as nobody can be elite with a china chin, it's also not even really glass. I'd call it "shaky", which is workable but can be annihilated easily.

China is like Fraudley Harrison and Amir Khan.

[barneyrub]

Fair comment, but did Tyson, Ruddock, Tua or Briggs hit him with their money shots? What would have happened had they? Yes they did,

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[Jack]

It's not china, as nobody can be elite with a china chin, it's also not even really glass. I'd call it "shaky", which is workable but can be annihilated easily.
Just a simple question here, if his chin was easy to break down, why couldn't so many hard hitters do it? How about that fantastic punch on the jaw from Klitschko - A man witha 97% knockout ratio?

Joe Louis would have been KOed from that punch, no doubt about it. I doubt he could take the punche Tua landed on Louis and survive either.

[barneyrub]

Good is out of the question. Bad is up for debate. On a scale of 1 to 10, with ten being the best and one being the worst, I say Lewis’ chin was about a 5.5. Most heavyweights are suspect to power punchers.

Lewis was Ko’d twice by one punch, but he also took some hard shots from the likes of Bruno, Briggs, Tyson, and Kiltschko. Lewis fought in a timeline full of heavy hitters. In the grand scheme of things, 2 knockouts in 44 professional fights are not so bad. In fact, it’s better than average. Fans unfair label Lewis with a glass jaw. Those with glass jaws at the very least go down from the shots Bruno, Briggs, Tyson, and Kltischko landed.
The one punch thing isnt completley accurate. Rahman actually landed that flush right several times in the fight, obviously it must have hurt Lewis but he didnt go down, by the point in the 5th when he went down he was clearly tired and with the accumulation of effect from those earlier shots [one earlier in that round] he was was then caught while off balance, bouncing off the ropes without his legs being set beneath him.

[McGrain]

The one punch thing isnt completley accurate. Rahman actually landed that flush right several times in the fight, obviously it must have hurt Lewis but he didnt go down, by the point in the 5th when he went down he was clearly tired and with the accumulation of effect from those earlier shots [one earlier in that round] he was was then caught while off balance, bouncing off the ropes without his legs being set beneath him.


It has to be said, Lewis fundamentals need to be criticised every bit as much as his chin for that KO.

[Amsterdam]

Just a simple question here, if his chin was easy to break down, why couldn't so many hard hitters do it? How about that fantastic punch on the jaw from Klitschko - A man witha 97% knockout ratio?

Joe Louis would have been KOed from that punch, no doubt about it. I doubt he could take the punche Tua landed on Louis and survive either.

Joe Louis was also essentially a Cruiserweight though and you share many of my sentiments on modern vs. classic, that's not even a comparison.

Had Tua followed up, he'd have floored Lewis and would have ended the fight, a guy like Tua is massively overrated in the sense that he has the power but lacks the ability to put a guy away and that punch he landed on Lewis was extended, when a small powerhouse like him generates more power from a shorter compact punch.

Plus, Lewis had a great defence, he never ate shots like Holyfield did for example. Lessening the impact of punches is apart of an expanded defence, Lewis was great at this.

Let's bring another point up about Vit Klitschko, this guy had a KO percentage that is impressive, but what's really impressive is that he doesn't have 1 punch KO power in the least bit, what is impressive is that he broke those fighters down to stop them. Vit Klit had to significantly break someone down to TKO them, it's impressive that he had the skill to do it 34 times, look at the Danny Williams fight, a fighter who's been stopped on multiple occasions, it took Vitali 8 rounds, took Fraudley 3.

[ChrisPontius]

To be fair though, there are a zillion other factors that come into play here.

When one guy is using Foreman as a heavybag for 10 rounds and then gets caught and is out cold, as well as against any other puncher he faced, i think the common factor is chin. It's not like he lacked the boxing skill not the go the distance with Holyfield, Tua or Foreman. He just couldn't take the punches.


Like it or not, but Tua, Morrison, Grant, Klitschko, Briggs, Tyson, Bruno, Mason and Tucker DID land their sunday punches and Lewis didn't go anywhere. Lewis had excellent defense but everyone gets tagged a couple of times and with Moorers chin he wouldn't have made it to the finish in half of those fights or more.

[Amsterdam]

When one guy is using Foreman as a heavybag for 10 rounds and then gets caught and is out cold, as well as against any other puncher he faced, i think the common factor is chin. It's not like he lacked the boxing skill not the go the distance with Holyfield, Tua or Foreman. He just couldn't take the punches.


Like it or not, but Tua, Morrison, Grant, Klitschko, Briggs, Tyson, Bruno, Mason and Tucker DID land their sunday punches and Lewis didn't go anywhere. Lewis had excellent defense but everyone gets tagged a couple of times and with Moorers chin he wouldn't have made it to the finish in half of those fights or more.

Moorer's is worse than Lewis, I'll agree to that.

[Jack]

Joe Louis was also essentially a Cruiserweight though and you share many of my sentiments on modern vs. classic, that's not even a comparison.A fair point on Louis being a cruiser, but there has been a lot of small heavies who took a great punch. I don't think he was that was either. Despite being smaller, Marciano had a much better chin than Louis did. Plus the people who dropped him weren't huge either.
Had Tua followed up, he'd have floored Lewis and would have ended the fight, a guy like Tua is massively overrated in the sense that he has the power but lacks the ability to put a guy away and that punch he landed on Lewis was extended, when a small powerhouse like him generates more power from a shorter compact punch.Tua landed quite a few good shots, and a guyw ith his natural power, technique isn't essential. Look at Max Baer, George Foreman or right now, Sam Peter. All are really poor technicians, yet all have a good KO ratio.

They could have been better punches, but lets not act like they were weak because of the way he through them. He had so much raw power, those were KO punches regardless of whether he was off balance.
Let's bring another point up about Vit Klitschko, this guy had a KO percentage that is impressive, but what's really impressive is that he doesn't have 1 punch KO power in the least bit, what is impressive is that he broke those fighters down to stop them. Vit Klit had to significantly break someone down to TKO them, it's impressive that he had the skill to do it 34 times, look at the Danny Williams fight, a fighter who's been stopped on multiple occasions, it took Vitali 8 rounds, took Fraudley 3.Danny Williams was shot by the time Harrison beat him. Williams beat Harrison over 12 rounds, before their second fight.

And Vitali is still a ridiculously hard puncher. Whether he breaks the down or not, that was a seriously hard punch. Fighters breaking people down isn't to do with how hard they hit, but their style anyway.

[Amsterdam]

A fair point on Louis being a cruiser, but there has been a lot of small heavies who took a great punch. I don't think he was that was either. Despite being smaller, Marciano had a much better chin than Louis did.

Marciano gets KTFO by Tua as well, but again, he was a cruiserweight and from an era not even comparable to the 90's, or even the 30's for that matter. Marciano would have been KOed by Liston, he came in and did his run at the right time.


Plus the people who dropped him weren't huge either.
Tua landed quite a few good shots, and a guyw ith his natural power, technique isn't essential. Look at Max Baer, George Foreman or right now, Sam Peter. All are really poor technicians, yet all have a good KO ratio.


I never said he didn't have the power mate, but Tua is even more lacking in his skill to set up his gigantic blows than a Foreman type, this is why it took him 10 rounds to get a lucky shot in on glass Rahman and why he couldn't follow up when he had Lewis buzzed.

He has tremendous power, the shot he landed on Lewis was decent, I am not saying Lewis is glass or china, but imagine if he followed up with a short right hand on the button after that shot that is circulating on the internet... Lewis would have been KTFO, where as I promise you that a guy like Holyfield would have eaten it.

The call on Tua is only on the fact that I am tired of people saying "Lewis or Rahman ate Tua's shots" when it's known he has awesome power, but when it's also known that he lacks even a proper SLUGGERS skill to really deliver them there and that's why he couldn't put a dent in some really average fighters on top of not following it up on Lewis.

Foreman at his peak would have immediatley followed through with one of his powerful clubbing rights and would have finished the job, even though Foreman looks sloppy at times, there is more skill in there than David Tua.


They could have been better punches, but lets not act like they were weak because of the way he through them. He had so much raw power, those were KO punches regardless of whether he was off balance.


Well, all I was getting at was that Tua's best shots were short punches because he's a compact powerhouse that uses no levarage like a longer fighter.

They were decent shots, I'll give him that.

Danny Williams was shot by the time Harrison beat him. Williams beat Harrison over 12 rounds, before their second fight.

Yes, but Harrison didn't open up on Williams in their first, he was fighting scared to protect that china chin. Williams has a shaky chin regardless, about like Lennox to be exact, only Lennox has ATG skills and ATG athletic ability, where as Danny is a plodding, overweight fighter.


And Vitali is still a ridiculously hard puncher. Whether he breaks the down or not, that was a seriously hard punch. Fighters breaking people down isn't to do with how hard they hit, but their style anyway.


He's a decent puncher and having to break somebody down while landing your best shots round after round shows that you are an accumulation hitter, not a 1 punch hitter. Vitali has an impressive stoppage ratio because he was highly proficient at his style, the guy is really underrated at that and he could stick to a gameplan like any of the best.

But a ridiculously hard puncher? Not at all, he doesn't even have Rahman's power, imagine if he did with his workrate... he'd have a ton of KO's, not TKO's and they'd be early, including something like a KO 1 or KO 2 on Danny Williams. A single shot from Vit Klit means little, because he did his damage through accumulation of punishment, ask any deep Klitschko fan.

[fists of fury]

When one guy is using Foreman as a heavybag for 10 rounds and then gets caught and is out cold, as well as against any other puncher he faced, i think the common factor is chin. It's not like he lacked the boxing skill not the go the distance with Holyfield, Tua or Foreman. He just couldn't take the punches.

Not to worry Chris, I agree Lewis has a better chin than Moorer, but we cannot rule out other factors like defensive techniques etc. in your comparison. That's all I'm saying.



Like it or not, but Tua, Morrison, Grant, Klitschko, Briggs, Tyson, Bruno, Mason and Tucker DID land their sunday punches and Lewis didn't go anywhere. Lewis had excellent defense but everyone gets tagged a couple of times and with Moorers chin he wouldn't have made it to the finish in half of those fights or more.

This part I'm not so sure about. They all landed decent punches sure, but although Tua caught Lennox a few good ones, Lewis was usually on the retreat when he was hit. It does lessen the impact to a degree. Tyson landed some okay shots, but non were really timed that well. Certainly nothing as clean as the shots he hit Tubbs, Berbick or Holmes with.

To me, Vitali Klitschko doesn't really belong in a list of huge punchers. He didn't possess one-punch KO power at an elite level. A solid, thudding puncher yes, but not really a KO artist, despite his record. I think the same can be said for Gary Mason.
They didn't hit Lewis consistently enough to wear him down, which was their modus operandi.

Not denying he faced big hitters - only a fool could deny that - but to say he fought them and took their best punches is incorrect, imo.
To say he fought them and took some solid shots is more accurate.

[janitor]

While his chin was certainly a point of weakness it was generaly not bad enough to save you if you did not have the tools to beat him anyway, however hard you hit.

A lot of big punchers landed their Sunday best and had nothing to show for it. After that they almost seem to be thinking-

"Er right. What exactly am I surposed to do now"?

[janitor]

Just a simple question here, if his chin was easy to break down, why couldn't so many hard hitters do it? How about that fantastic punch on the jaw from Klitschko - A man witha 97% knockout ratio?

Joe Louis would have been KOed from that punch, no doubt about it. I doubt he could take the punche Tua landed on Louis and survive either.

Since Joe Louis was never KOd by a single punch in his entire career I think there is a great deal of doubt about it.

[ChrisPontius]

This part I'm not so sure about. They all landed decent punches sure, but although Tua caught Lennox a few good ones, Lewis was usually on the retreat when he was hit. It does lessen the impact to a degree. Tyson landed some okay shots, but non were really timed that well. Certainly nothing as clean as the shots he hit Tubbs, Berbick or Holmes with.

I disagree. Although Lewis was on the retreat a couple of times, Tua also nailed Lewis flush other times. Just watch the video Barneyrub posted or watch the fight itself, i believe some landed in rounds 3 & 4.

If Lewis would've been knocked out or down by the shots they landed you would've classified them as the shots that knocked down Tubbs, Berbick and Holmes. They were snappy, quick and hard punches that looked less hard because Lewis took them.


To me, Vitali Klitschko doesn't really belong in a list of huge punchers. He didn't possess one-punch KO power at an elite level. A solid, thudding puncher yes, but not really a KO artist, despite his record. I think the same can be said for Gary Mason.
They didn't hit Lewis consistently enough to wear him down, which was their modus operandi.

Agreed to a certain degree in that they weren't one-punch KO artists, but their KO % doesn't lie and if Lewis had such a glass or average chin, he would've at least been out of the fight or survival mode after taking those shots. But he wasn't.



Not denying he faced big hitters - only a fool could deny that - but to say he fought them and took their best punches is incorrect, imo.
To say he fought them and took some solid shots is more accurate.
I think a key factor here is that the effect of the punch usually makes the punch.
Watch the punch with which Tyson knocks Berbick down three times - if you see the fight for the first time and you'd pause the tape right before Berbick falls, you'd say "hmm, that was a decent shot". Only when you see the replay, different angle and the effect of the punch you recognise what a great punch it was, when it could well have been interpreted as an average one had there been no reaction or replay.

The most effective KO punches are the quick, hard to see ones. When they don't knock down a fighter or stagger him then they are easily overlooked. If you watch the slow-motion replay you'll see that they are power shots with full leverage on them from proven punchers.

The only exception here is that left hook from Briggs which made Lewis stagger into the ropes, but Lewis did exactly what he had to do: go on defense, keep his hands up and make Briggs shoot his load.

[barneyrub]

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[Cojimar 1945]

I think it's doubtful that the Tyson that Lewis faced was as deadly a puncher as the younger version.

[Bill1234]

Was it bad? Was it good? Was it somewhere in between?

The amount of spin from Lewis fans and detractors on this site about his chin is quite amazing.
I think it was no more than average, and below average at world class level.
My reasoning is simple: No other ATG heavyweight has ever been knocked out cold with a single punch.

Arguments to the contrary are welcome. :good


There have been plent ATG's knocked out cold. Look at the punch Marciano KO'd Walcott with...that would knock anyone out cold. But anyway, I think you are right with how you have it.

[Vanboxingfan]

I'd rate Lewis' chin as a 7 if we're talking elite fighters, 8 or higher, if we're discussing all the heavyweights who ever fought.

[ironchamp]

Larry Merchant would say "...Lennox Lewis may have real some *****s in his armor, but look at all that armor...."

Lewis's chin was actually better than most make it out to be. But I don't believe for a second that it was granite. While its certainly not glass I believe its sturdy enough to allow for him to compete at an elite level. Lewis unlike most ATG fighters has a chin that can fail him however his steller fundamentals, size, stamina and power made his chin a non issue in all but two fights.

[Doppleganger]

I think it's doubtful that the Tyson that Lewis faced was as deadly a puncher as the younger version.
You're right, Tyson was not the same deadly puncher as he was in his younger days but he was, IMO, a harder single shot puncher. He was no longer throwing as many combos and by the time he fought Lewis he was relying far more on single punch power to get results.

[Mendoza]

both McCall & Rahman poleaxed him and neither has ever K.Od anyone else in similar style so its got to be down to Lenox having a dodgy chin... and lets not forget that Briggs wobbled him bigstyle and he should have taken a count against Akinwande

Wow. I do not recall Lewis being close to taking the count vs Akinwande. The fight was marred by Akinwande’s holding antics. Did Lewis hit the floor in this fight?

[Doppleganger]

both McCall & Rahman poleaxed him and neither has ever K.Od anyone else in similar style so its got to be down to Lenox having a dodgy chin... and lets not forget that Briggs wobbled him bigstyle and he should have taken a count against Akinwande
Have you read nothing that guys like Chris Pontius and others have posted?

However, Lewis did touch down against Akinwande so technically it should have been ruled a knockdown. It was impossible to tell though whether that touchdown was as a result of a punch or a combination of punch and being off balance because of Akindwande's horrible holding. In any case Lewis did not even remotely look like being stopped so I'd put it in the same category as the Hagler 'knockdown' against Roldan.

[JohnThomas1]

While his chin was certainly a point of weakness it was generaly not bad enough to save you if you did not have the tools to beat him anyway, however hard you hit.


I actually disagree technically here. To say it's a point of weakness is far overstated and sounds like he was wobbled every time he was hit. He survived and thrived vs numerous top bombers and only hit the canvas a couple of times in his life, being up and ready to fight in one of them. The statement makes me think of guys like Shavers and similar, not Lewis. Just a minor point.

[janitor]

I actually disagree technically here. To say it's a point of weakness is far overstated and sounds like he was wobbled every time he was hit. He survived and thrived vs numerous top bombers and only hit the canvas a couple of times in his life, being up and ready to fight in one of them. The statement makes me think of guys like Shavers and similar, not Lewis. Just a minor point.

When I say point of weakness I mean it lost him two fights that he would not have lost with a slightly better chin.

To take an analogy Joe Louis is a fighter often criticised for his chin but it never lost him a fight. If Lewis has a chin just that little bit better then McCall and Ramhan are just enbarasing knockdowns.

[JohnThomas1]

When I say point of weakness I mean it lost him two fights that he would not have lost with a slightly better chin.

To take an analogy Joe Louis is a fighter often criticised for his chin but it never lost him a fight.

Fair enough. It sounded like you meant going into fights and it was present all the time. You mean looking back. Sort of like Ali's lack of Foreman power was a point of weakness, as otherwise he would have beat Norton and Frazier everytime.

[DamonD]

Ali with Foreman power is an utterly scary thought. He'd never have lost.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali with Foreman power is an utterly scary thought. He'd never have lost.

Well prolly not until about 1995 anyways LOL!

[cross_trainer]

Was it bad? Was it good? Was it somewhere in between?



Maybe.

[fists of fury]

He survived and thrived vs numerous top bombers and only hit the canvas a couple of times in his life, being up and ready to fight in one of them.

:huh

While the McCall fight may be a case of a slightly premature stoppage, I would hardly call Lewis 'up and ready to fight.' He was clearly wobbly and was leaning against the ref.

[fists of fury]

Maybe.

Maybe? Maybe? You're not getting off that lightly, my learned friend. :D

[cross_trainer]

Maybe? Maybe? You're not getting off that lightly, my learned friend. :D

How about "Perhaps"?

[JohnThomas1]

:huh

While the McCall fight may be a case of a slightly premature stoppage, I would hardly call Lewis 'up and ready to fight.' He was clearly wobbly and was leaning against the ref.

Lewis seemed keen to fight on to me, maybe i need to watch it again.

[fists of fury]

Lewis seemed keen to fight on to me, maybe i need to watch it again.

He was (in a groggy sort of way) but whether he could is another story.
Anyway, guess we'll never know...

[JohnThomas1]

He was (in a groggy sort of way) but whether he could is another story.
Anyway, guess we'll never know...


Would you say he was in any worse condition than Holmes vs Snipes or Shavers?

[fists of fury]

Would you say he was in any worse condition than Holmes vs Snipes or Shavers?

Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. I'll have to go and watch those knockdowns again.
My personal opinion is that Lewis should have been allowed to continue, because this was a championship fight and he was the champion. you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, I wasn't the one standing next to him and looking into his eyes...

[JohnThomas1]

Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. I'll have to go and watch those knockdowns again.
My personal opinion is that Lewis should have been allowed to continue, because this was a championship fight and he was the champion. you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, I wasn't the one standing next to him and looking into his eyes...

Lewis was denied his chance to show the world he could come back from a severe KD and win. Who knows, if he wasn't threads like this one might never have existed.

[barneyrub]

:huh

While the McCall fight may be a case of a slightly premature stoppage, I would hardly call Lewis 'up and ready to fight.' He was clearly wobbly and was leaning against the ref.No more than when he leaned up against Mercante at every break in the Holyfield fight, in the end he was up and in just as if not better condition than Holmes was versus snipes and shavers, as Holyfield was when he got 17 seconds from Bowes knockdown or Barrera when he got 19 seconds from Jones knockdown. But this ref only gave Lewis 8 seconds. Not even a 10 count, hell look at Danny Williams getting up at 9 and a half against vitali and wobbling yet being allowed to continue!

[Doppleganger]

When I say point of weakness I mean it lost him two fights that he would not have lost with a slightly better chin.

To take an analogy Joe Louis is a fighter often criticised for his chin but it never lost him a fight. If Lewis has a chin just that little bit better then McCall and Ramhan are just enbarasing knockdowns. I disagree with this. Who is to say that someone like Holyfield, Bowe or Joe Louis would not have been stopped had they taken the punch from McCall and the accumulation of punches from Rahman and been in the physical and psychological state that Lewis was in for those 2 fights? Holyfield got nailed by Bert Cooper in round 3 and was all over the place for about 10-15 seconds. Bowe was out on his fight against Holyfield and Louis of course was floored several times and stopped by Schmeling and later by Marciano.

Moreover, how can you say that Louis's chin never cost him a fight when he was stopped twice? That doesn't make any logical sense.

Before the McCall fight the consensus seemed to be how solid Lewis's chin was. He had never been visibly hurt until that fight.

[robert ungurean]

It was fragile.
Which is why he fought so cautius even though he was usually so much bigger than everyone he fought.
My God this man is so overated on this forum.

[barneyrub]

However, Lewis did touch down against Akinwande so technically it should have been ruled a knockdown. It was impossible to tell though whether that touchdown was as a result of a punch or a combination of punch and being off balance because of Akindwande's horrible holding. In any case Lewis did not even remotely look like being stopped so I'd put it in the same category as the Hagler 'knockdown' against Roldan.It was more of a push down on the back of his head/kneck, not a legit punch. Though Harold Lederman made a big deal about it at the time.

[ripcity]

He got caught by two good punchers.

[Zakman]

Was it bad? Was it good? Was it somewhere in between?

The amount of spin from Lewis fans and detractors on this site about his chin is quite amazing.
I think it was no more than average, and below average at world class level.
My reasoning is simple: No other ATG heavyweight has ever been knocked out cold with a single punch.

Arguments to the contrary are welcome. :good

Not glass, but certainly not solid. "Shaky" would seem to be the most accurate descriptor.

[ChrisPontius]

Zakman, this is the first time you haven't classed it "glass" AND you haven't thrown out the "if McCall and Rahman could..." line yet.

Did your wife beat some sense into you?:lol:

[MrSmall]

Lewis never got hit by some prime Tyson meat. His punches in 2002 were looking pretty weak in comparison.
I think Lewis' chin was average at world class level.

[NickHudson]

Hmmm, I guess its a compliment to Lewis that his chin gets criticised, because it shows we are comparing him against the highest benchmarks i.e. the greatest HWs that have ever lived.

I think his chin was good, but that is someway short of 'granite', 'tremendous' or whatever words we might use for Ali, Foreman et al.

Clearly, saying he has a glass jaw is hyperbole, presumably used to make a point by over-emphasis.

[Doppleganger]

It was fragile.
Which is why he fought so cautius even though he was usually so much bigger than everyone he fought.
Like he did against Golota, Ruddock, Klitschko, Grant, Holyfield, and Mercer right? Lewis was aggressive in the majority of his fights. In fights where he was cautious he usually did so for a reason, although admittedly against Tyson he was far too cautious for my liking. Aginst Tua though it was the correct tactic. Why get into a brawl with a rock-chinned big puncher when you can keep him on the outside and win the fight comfortably? That's not called cautious, that's called smart. :yep

[JohnThomas1]

Like he did against Golota, Ruddock, Klitschko, Grant, Holyfield, and Mercer right? Lewis was aggressive in the majority of his fights. In fights where he was cautious he usually did so for a reason, although admittedly against Tyson he was far too cautious for my liking. Aginst Tua though it was the correct tactic. Why get into a brawl with a rock-chinned big puncher when you can keep him on the outside and win the fight comfortably? That's not called cautious, that's called smart. :yep

Another loose anti Lewis post absolutely gunned down in flames.

[Mendoza]

There has to be some middle ground here. I’ll risk being caught in no man’s land between two opposite sides to define it. Lewis to me had a better chin than the following heavyweight champions:

Johnson, J. Sharkey, M Schmeling, Carnera, Charels, Walcott, Patterson , Johansson, L Spinks, Morrer, and Rhaman. This is 11 of 37 champions.

We could argue, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Louis, Frazier, Douglas, and Briggs too as each of the fighters was knocked down more often, and out as much or more! That would bring the total up to 17 of 37, which is middle of the pack. Could a big puncher KO Lewis? Sure. Could the same puncher KO the above men I mentioned too? Sure.

[fists of fury]

There has to be some middle ground here. I’ll risk being caught in no man’s land between two opposite sides to define it. Lewis to me had a better chin than the following heavyweight champions:

Johnson, J. Sharkey, M Schmeling, Carnera, Charels, Walcott, Patterson , Johansson, L Spinks, Morrer, and Rhaman. This is 11 of 37 champions.

We could argue, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Louis, Frazier, Douglas, and Briggs too as each of the fighters was knocked down more often, and out as much or more! That would bring the total up to 17 of 37, which is middle of the pack. Could a big puncher KO Lewis? Sure. Could the same puncher KO the above men I mentioned too? Sure.

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

I wonder how many will agree?

[achillesthegreat]

It is a good chin, its not glass, its not granite.

Its about as proven as can be, Lewis has taken some good shots in his time. The shots that put him away were unbelievable punches.

[DamonD]

McCall caught him right in the middle of a 1-2, that's horribly disorientating on its own. Reminds me a little of the Tyson-Botha KO come to think of it ("Haah! H-ugh...")

The Rahman one, well, that was a right belter anyway. A 238-pound man hitting you like that is not going to feel good whoever you are. I can't think of many HWs that would've taken that and kept upright. Which is why it was so stupid with the casual attitude, lazy defence and insufficient altitude training, but that's a long story... ;)

[Luigi1985]

You can only take 2 responses IMO:

Mediocre or good

[JohnThomas1]

You can only take 2 responses IMO:

Mediocre or good

There's a lot of grey area between medicore and good, no?

[Luigi1985]

There's a lot of grey area between medicore and good, no?


Correct, but I only wanted that 2 peeving "sides" stop now:

the one who said he had an iron chin because he survided against big punchers like Tua, Grant, etc.

and the other side who said he had a glass chin because he was KO´d twice with one punch


IMO both opinions are hyperbolical and not fair, Lewis did have a good chin, ATG´s-wise he had a mediocre chin when we compare it with the best chins ever at HW...

[Doppleganger]

Another loose anti Lewis post absolutely gunned down in flames.
Absolutely my good man. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Correct, but I only wanted that 2 peeving "sides" stop now:

the one who said he had an iron chin because he survided against big punchers like Tua, Grant, etc.

and the other side who said he had a glass chin because he was KO´d twice with one punch


IMO both opinions are hyperbolical and not fair, Lewis did have a good chin, ATG´s-wise he had a mediocre chin when we compare it with the best chins ever at HW...

I fail to see much difference between mediocre and glass

:hey

[Luigi1985]

I fail to see much difference between mediocre and glass

:hey

Wrong. In his era, Lewis had a good chin, otherwise he wouldn´t have a great record he has now. Compared to the ATG´s at HW, than his chin is mediocre...

big difference!

[JohnThomas1]

Wrong. In his era, Lewis had a good chin, otherwise he wouldn´t have a great record he has now. Compared to the ATG´s at HW, than his chin is mediocre...

big difference!

Mediocre? I won't be the one but plenty here could shoot you down on that one. The man lost two fights in his life, by stoppage. One he should have been allowed to go on. ATG's at heavyweight. He was on his ass what, 2 times? How many of your ATG's have been down two times or less? Ali? Frazier? Foreman? Charles? Holmes? Louis?

[Doppleganger]

Wrong. In his era, Lewis had a good chin, otherwise he wouldn´t have a great record he has now. Compared to the ATG´s at HW, than his chin is mediocre...

big difference! Why? Because he was stopped on 2 occasions and by a punch in the McCall fight that would have put many of the top 10 consensus Heavyweights of all time flat on their backs as well? Most people's top 10 Heavyweight rankings is not based on their chins, otherwise we'd have McCall and Chuvalo fighting it out for best Heavyweight of all time! So I don't understand your logic of Lewis having a good chin in his own era and it suddenly becoming mediocre in a top 10 ranking of overall skills, abilities and achievements.

Luigi, no fighter ever got into the top 10 of any division based solely on the strength of their chins. I'm sure you know this so I don't follow your logic.

[Luigi1985]

Mediocre? I won't be the one but plenty here could shoot you down on that one. The man lost two fights in his life, by stoppage. One he should have been allowed to go on. ATG's at heavyweight. He was on his ass what, 2 times? How many of your ATG's have been down two times or less? Ali? Frazier? Foreman? Charles? Holmes? Louis?



Here only some ATG´s who had better chins IMO:

Rocky Marciano
Ali
George Foreman
James J. Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes

and some others, although Lewis chin was good, compared to the ATG´s you can only say mediocre, you get my point?

[JohnThomas1]

Here only some ATG´s who had better chins IMO:

Rocky Marciano
Ali
George Foreman
James J. Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Jess Willard
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes

and some others, although Lewis chin was good, compared to the ATG´s you can only say mediocre, you get my point?

Totally disagree, and i would rank Lewis with Frazier, or damn close.

[Luigi1985]

Why? Because he was stopped on 2 occasions and by a punch in the McCall fight that would have put many of the top 10 consensus Heavyweights of all time flat on their backs as well? Most people's top 10 Heavyweight rankings is not based on their chins, otherwise we'd have McCall and Chuvalo fighting it out for best Heavyweight of all time! So I don't understand your logic of Lewis having a good chin in his own era and it suddenly becoming mediocre in a top 10 ranking of overall skills, abilities and achievements.

Luigi, no fighter ever got into the top 10 of any division based solely on the strength of their chins. I'm sure you know this so I don't follow your logic.


I try to explain it, if one of the best fighters from era A fights in a matchup against one of the best fighters from era D, it wouldn´t be one-sided (like most of Lewis fights), it would have been a war, and when fighters like Rahman and McCall, who had both good power, but not compared to ATG´s like Foreman, Marciano, Jeffries, etc., KO´d Lewis with only one punch, than you must honestly say that in a fantasy matchup Lewis chances to get KTFO again wouldn´t be that low...

[Zakman]

Zakman, this is the first time you haven't classed it "glass" AND you haven't thrown out the "if McCall and Rahman could..." line yet.

Did your wife beat some sense into you?:lol:

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

Well, I don't know about that, let's just say my chin wasn't tested.

What I'd say is this - Lewis's chin clearly wasn't good, but it wasn't grade A china either. I'd rate it a 3 or 4 out of 10. Better than Tommy Morrison, but worse than Joe Louis.

[Luigi1985]

Totally disagree, and i would rank Lewis with Frazier, or damn close.


But Frazier wasn´t KTFO against fighters with only good punching power, one of the hardest hitting HW´s ever, George Foreman, needed so many punches to TKO him, you get my point? Lewis chin was better than the examples I mentioned?