What would the 15th round of Ali vs Frazier III look like?

[Mendoza]

What is your interpretation of what would have happened in the 15th round of Ali vs Frazier III? While Ali did come on strong toward the end of the fight, he called the evening the closest he has even been to death, and causally joked if Frazier had acted like he had some energy left in him, he might have not come out fort the 15th round. While this might be a bit of a tale, Ali virtually collapsed as soon as the fight was waived off.

No one knows for sure what would have happened in the 15th if Futch did not stop the fight. What is your best guess? Did either fighter have enough left to go the distance, or score a knockdown/out?

[MrSmall]

I reckon Joe would come out on top.
Ali wanted out, Joe wanted in, their trainers thought differently.

[McGrain]

It would have been pretty grim I think.

It's my guess that Ali would have won the round. I think he collapsed because he let go his will. That is my opinion.

I think the opposite opinion is pretty valid though.

[Sweet Science]

What is your interpretation of what would have happened in the 15th round of Ali vs Frazier III? While Ali did come on strong toward the end of the fight, he called the evening the closest he has even been to death, and causally joked if Frazier had acted like he had some energy left in him, he might have not come out fort the 15th round. While this might be a bit of a tale, Ali virtually collapsed as soon as the fight was waived off.

No one knows for sure what would have happened in the 15th if Futch did not stop the fight. What is your best guess? Did either fighter have enough left to go the distance, or score a knockdown/out?

I think this is an excellent question.

I would have to agree with McGrain on this. I think he is spot on, although Ali collapsed this is probably due to him letting go of his will when he knew the fight was over.

Had Joe been allowed to continue he would have survived the round the man was a warrior and Ali was too tired to rally for a knockout. I think Ali would have survived any onslaught from Frazier too, his ego would have ensured he would have died before giving up.

The round would have come to a natural end, Ali would probably take the round as Frazier was all swollen up and having difficulty with his vision.


Ali may have said he was the closest ever to death but don't let that fool you into thinking he was finished. He would have gotten up from his stool and gone back to work. Ali was a warrior too. Anyway, I'm sure he wanted that massive silly trophy! :yep

[fists of fury]

Ali nearly quit in the 10th, but he had regained the momentum from Frazier and clearly has the better of the 13th and 14th rounds.

By the end of the 14th Frazier was close to being stopped, and he had trouble finding his corner.
I think the 15th would have been a continuation of the 14th round, with Ali having gotten his second (or third) wind and punishing Frazier with sharp punches.
Frazier had so much heart though, and he'd struggle through the round to finish on his feet. However, I think he would have taken a lot of punishment in the 15th and may have been on the receiving end of a flash knockdown at some point.

[FlatNose]

Ali was really nailing Joe flush in the 14th.Both were tired and badly beaten up, but Joe couldn't see.Both had the balls and the will to keep going, but Futch saw the writing on the wall.It was just too dangerous to send Joe out not being able to see.Ali would have sucked it up and punished Joe badly in the 15th.

[ChrisPontius]

Frazier would end up dead, in a coma or with even more brain damage than he has now. Yes Ali was exhausted too, but he was still throwing a lot of punches in the 14th. Frazier's corner not stopping it would've been homicide.

[McGrain]

I think Frazier's willingness to continue is a little overstated.

On returning to his corner at the end of 14 he apparenlty said "I can't see them to good" in response to Futch's question about Ali's punches.

That is as much a cry for help as a man like Frazier would ever allow himself.

[Amsterdam]

I'm afraid to think of it, but Frazier would have taken whatever until the end. Sadistic.

[fists of fury]

I think Frazier's willingness to continue is a little overstated.

On returning to his corner at the end of 14 he apparenlty said "I can't see them to good" in response to Futch's question about Ali's punches.

That is as much a cry for help as a man like Frazier would ever allow himself.

One of the things I like about this folder are the little insights like this that really flesh out a fight you think you knew everything about. I didn't know Joe had said that, and I think you're absolutely correct in your assesment that it was Joe's way of waving a little white flag.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Pretty much like the 14th. Joe would eat up punches till the bell went (but there wouldn't be as many of them).

[DamonD]

I've always pictured it like the 14th but with fewer punches and more leaning on. Both guys were exhausted, I don't think Frazier could've summoned sufficient energy for one last push, and I think Ali would've been happy to grapple and slug his way through the last round. Plus the risk of injury to Frazier would've been even greater, with his eyes so bad on top of the dehydration and the effect on his brain.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I always thought Fraier would have won if they would have continued after the 14th.



In what way? Would his sight have just simply improved with the magic sponge?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Don´t know but i like Frazier and dislike Ali, so let me have this illusion :D


Ha ha fair enough. :yep

[Duodenum]

At the end of the 14th round, Ali was actually knocking Frazier backwards. Joe wasn't like Sam Langford, he needed his vision to perform effectively. Muhammad had withstood Smoke's best at that point, as witnessed by Frazier's comment that he hit Ali with punches that would have knocked down walls.

Keep in mind that this wasn't the first time that year in which Ali had collapsed at the end of a contest. He did the same thing after dispatching Wepner. The gauntlet of bouts he had against Foreman, Wepner, Lyle and Bugner had forged him into steel, and he probably would have come out of his corner for the final round heartened by his success at the end of the previous round. Unfortunately for Frazier, Muhammad was absolutely at the most battle ready and battle tested condition of his career.

1975 may have been the single greatest year any heavyweight titlist has ever had. He took out Wepner at the very end of a sustained championship round surge, with what would have been a clean knockout if Tony Perez hadn't waved off the count at seven. (Chuck struggled to his feet 12 seconds after going down.) If Perez hadn't ruled Ali's earlier falling as a knockdown, Muhammad probably would have settled for an easy decision, but he wanted to avenge his fall by scoring one of his own. This resulted in him exerting himself late in a way he never had before. (He didn't particularly put himself out against Bonavena, but essentially finished Ringo with a single hook.) Remarkably, Wepner didn't turn into a bloody mess in Cleveland, or he would have been stopped earlier. (The press expected Chuck to be stopped earlier in a bloodbath. That this didn't happen was a huge surprise, but this work undoubtedly aided his ability to perform late in Manila.)

Ali spotted Lyle a lead on the scorecards, then took Ron out in one of the few come from behind wins of his career.

In Malaysia, Bugner made Ali do most of the work in scorching hot temperatures under the sun. Not a particularly difficult win for Muhammad, but he did get in a good 15 round workout against a well schooled challenger.

Frazier challenged Ali for the title at the worst possible time he could have tried for it. Muhammad was into a grueling rhythym when round 14 ended, and would have forced Carlos Padilla to stop the fight. Padilla said he would have let Frazier come out for the final round, but would have stopped it if Joe continued getting hit the way he had been. That's what I believe would have happened. It might have been like the end of Lyle (when Ali battered Ron from corner, to corner, to corner, with 46 unanswered punches). I don't think Joe would have gone down, but he was pretty much reduced to a punching bag by that point. He did not give ground to Ali unless he was in very, very serious trouble, and rendered unable to see. He'd have been reduced to covering against the ropes or in the corner, and Padilla would have interceded fairly early in the round. The competitive phase of Manila was over when Futch stopped it.

[DamonD]

Don´t know but i like Frazier and dislike Ali, so let me have this illusion :D
Heh, can't argue with that really :thumbsup

[ironchamp]

Frazier would end up dead, in a coma or with even more brain damage than he has now. Yes Ali was exhausted too, but he was still throwing a lot of punches in the 14th. Frazier's corner not stopping it would've been homicide.

Accessory to homicide....

[mcvey]

:oops: :oops: :oops: Oh Dear!

[C. M. Clay II]

Referee Padilla said he would have stopped it in the 15th if Frazier was ging tagged too often, so it would have been a 15th round TKO for Ali.:good

[C. M. Clay II]

I always thought Fraier would have won if they would have continued after the 14th.

:tired

[garymcfall]

I think the referee would have stopped it very quickly, Ali would have came out and for 30 seconds would be hitting Joe cleanly and getting nothing back.

[Mendoza]

I think the referee would have stopped it very quickly, Ali would have came out and for 30 seconds would be hitting Joe cleanly and getting nothing back.

How much do you think Ali had left after the end of the 14th?

[garymcfall]

How much do you think Ali had left after the end of the 14th?

Too much for Frazier to be honest. I think the stories about him wanting to quit are exaggerated. Ali would have sensed Joe was gone and came out strong, trying to get the round in the bag early. If he came out strong and Frazier was still standing then the pace would have slowed down dramatically, Ali holding the centre of the ring jabbing Frazier from range, who at this time was too exhuasted to even contemplate trying to slip a jab.

[Smokin'Joe100]

I had a dream the once that Frazier came out and was getting tagged and smashed up much like many of the distiguished posters on here are prophesising. Then Frazier has a 'rocky' moment, where he sucks it up, steels himself, and starts firing back with scorching hook-and-uppercut body and head combinations. He finally hits Ali with a left hook of the same magnitude of the one in round 15th of FOTC and the great warrior falls for the ten.

However, in reality i believe that frazier would lose on points.

[Lex]

Frazier's claim that Futch stopped the bout prematurely was disingenuous. Futch can clearly be seen talking to Joe, trying to find out whether Frazier can go on or wants to go on, and Frazier repeatedly shakes his head no.

Now, if Joe misunderstood Futch in the noise, confusion and blurry headed brain buzz, well, that's unfortunate. But Joe shouldn't have blamed Eddie for doing his job, which includes keeping his fighter from getting killed.

If Joe had gone into the 15th round he wouldn't have finished it. I don't think Ali had enough to KO Frazier, but Padilla would have stopped the fight to save Joe from further punishment. Ali was bouncing punches off of Frazier's head like he was dribbling a basketball. It was relentless and getting ugly.

Frazier was well behind on the cards. He was taking too much punishment and altho' he was connecting, his best shots didn't seem to be threatening to stop Ali or even slow him down enough to give Joe a break.

Ali's "collapse" afterward was as much show business as exhaustion. It reminded me of James Brown's emotional collapses on stage, complete with throwing off his cape and wailing. It was real and heartfelt, but it was also show biz. A well trained Ali always had just a little more in the tank than his opponents. No matter what he said about feeling like he was gonna die, might have quit earlier in the fight, etc., it was show biz and, in an odd way, showing respect for Frazier. No way was Ali gonna quit.

[Sweet Science]

Well, i obviously i never thought a nuthugger like you will agree with me.

You have a real problem with Ali as you have previously stated you hate him. That severely taints your opinion of him, in other words your obtuse opinion of Ali has absolutley no credibility whatsoever.

[ThinBlack]

Ali would have put Frazier on the canvas, and the referee issues a stoppage.

[MagnaNasakki]

Frazier was absolutely spent, a completely blind sitting duck. Ali had done enough heavy bag work at that point in his boxing career to answer the bell, throw some punches and land them, at which point Padilla says he'd have stopped the fight.

Ali TKO 15.

[Addie]

I think the 15th would have looked much like the 14th.

[Stevie G]

What is your interpretation of what would have happened in the 15th round of Ali vs Frazier III? While Ali did come on strong toward the end of the fight, he called the evening the closest he has even been to death, and causally joked if Frazier had acted like he had some energy left in him, he might have not come out fort the 15th round. While this might be a bit of a tale, Ali virtually collapsed as soon as the fight was waived off.

No one knows for sure what would have happened in the 15th if Futch did not stop the fight. What is your best guess? Did either fighter have enough left to go the distance, or score a knockdown/out?

I'm extremely glad that Eddie Futch did n't allow Frazier out for the last round. Both men were exhausted in that one,by the end of the fourteenth. Frazier was eating Ali's punches non-stop in that round,and the situation would have worsened. Joe could have got seriously hurt,and a Michael Watson or Gerald McClellan like tragedy could easily have prevailed.

[Sawyers]

Frazier would end up dead, in a coma or with even more brain damage than he has now. Yes Ali was exhausted too, but he was still throwing a lot of punches in the 14th. Frazier's corner not stopping it would've been homicide.


So true.

[Stevie G]

I've heard that Frazier was still bitter at Futch,for stopping the fight,in recent years. Can't understand it.

[round15]

Who knows if Ali had enough to finish Frazier off in the 15th round. I think the exhaustion factor would set in for both men at the start of the round and there wouldn't be a whole lot of punches thrown. Frazier looked like he had a little more energy than Ali, despite taking a lot of shots in the 14th. Perhaps Carlos Padilla would have stepped in and stopped the fight had Ali saved his last flurry for this round like he did against Shavers a few years later. Frazier's right eye was pretty much closed at that point so he would still have to take a step back to find his punching range. I wouldn't put it past Frazier to land a big hook and drop Ali in the last round like he did in the FOTC but Ali's fighting heart wouldn't keep him on the canvas, unless Frazier puts him down again.

Ali wins by UD, but not without a dangerous final round.

[round15]

Too much for Frazier to be honest. I think the stories about him wanting to quit are exaggerated. Ali would have sensed Joe was gone and came out strong, trying to get the round in the bag early. If he came out strong and Frazier was still standing then the pace would have slowed down dramatically, Ali holding the centre of the ring jabbing Frazier from range, who at this time was too exhuasted to even contemplate trying to slip a jab.

Who's to say Ali would have had the strength to keep his hands up and throw his jabs, let alone combinations. Both men were spent. Pacheco and Brown said Ali punched himself out in the 14th and were hoping for a stoppage. Dundee was the one working tirelessly on Ali's weary legs in the corner and this is apparently when Ali told him "cut em off, I ain't going out there, that man's crazy."

How much truth you put to this statement is the telling factor in the Ali's legacy. All three men in his corner said he wanted to quit and the only one ignoring him was Dundee.

[The Wanderer]

Wow, old time thread getting bumped. Anyway...

I've always pictured it like the 14th but with fewer punches and more leaning on. Both guys were exhausted, I don't think Frazier could've summoned sufficient energy for one last push, and I think Ali would've been happy to grapple and slug his way through the last round. Plus the risk of injury to Frazier would've been even greater, with his eyes so bad on top of the dehydration and the effect on his brain.

I think the 15th would have looked much like the 14th.

These are basically my thoughts. Most likely a tamer version of the 14th as both men are exhausted, Frazier is still blind and had throw virtually nothing with any zip for the past 2 rounds, and Ali would know he only had to kill 3 minutes to make it to the end.

The two guys lean all over each other, occasionally throwing exhausted arm punches, and then after spending about half the round that way Ali makes one last big statement with a series of combos and flurries until the bell rings.

[round15]

I think Frazier's willingness to continue is a little overstated.

On returning to his corner at the end of 14 he apparenlty said "I can't see them to good" in response to Futch's question about Ali's punches.

That is as much a cry for help as a man like Frazier would ever allow himself.

And before he died, Futch was very candid and clear in an interview I watched. He said Frazier stood up in protest after being told by Futch he was going to stop the fight. Eddie put his hand on Frazier's shoulder, sat him back down and told him it's all over.

After the 14th round, Futch asked Joe about Ali's right hand, to which you are correct, Frazier said "I can't se them to good." How does this echo a cry for help, when the man wanted to go out fighting?

[The Wanderer]

After the 14th round, Futch asked Joe about Ali's right hand, to which you are correct, Frazier said "I can't se them to good." How does this echo a cry for help, when the man wanted to go out fighting?

What I figure McGrain is saying is that Frazier was too stubborn, proud and tough to ever back away for a fight, admit to weakness, or surrender rather than keep battling. For him to admit to having any difficulty meant it was very severe indeed.

Kind of like in a movie or show where someone very tough and stoic gets injured, and when they asked if they're ok, they say something like "Kinda smarts a bit" and later on you find out that they have a broken bone sticking out through the skin.

And on top of that, Futch knows that Frazier was blind in one eye due to cataracts and the other eye had swollen to a slit. He know Frazier had thrown only very few punches the last two rounds, and those punches were arm punches. He knows in the meantime that Ali had been wearing out his hands on Frazier's head. Most of all, he knows that he's seen a lot of fighters get killed in the ring.

Maybe if Joe was 100% confident, had a second wind, and was raring to go for the last round he would have let it go on. But that's not what happened, so Futch did the humane thing and stopped the fight.

[apollack]

You never know. Educated guess says that given that Frazier was getting hit a lot in the 14th, and really could not see too well, he probably keeps getting hit a lot in the 15th. However, Ali was likely tired from hitting him so much, so it is possible that Ali slows the pace a bit and does what he needs to do to win the round without taking too many risks of getting caught with something in a fatigued state. Perhaps he pours it on in spots to test Joe, but I'm not totally certain he had the power to stop Frazier. It is possible though, depending on how bad Frazier's vision was and just how tired/broken down he was. It is possible that the referee steps in and stops it with Frazier on his feet but simply taking too many clean shots.

I think Futch knew Frazier was behind, knew he was getting hit more and more and couldn't see, and realized things weren't likely to get any better for his man, and that he would just be going out there to take punishment, which at that late stage of the fight, given all the cumulative punishment, could land him in the hospital. So he felt that enough was enough. Perhaps he wanted to give Frazier the out so Joe could blame the corner, and protect his pride by never having Ali stand over him with his arms raised while Joe was on the canvas.

Personally, I don’t think either Frazier or Ali were ever the same again after their first fight.

[gattiwarrior]

I think Frazier's willingness to continue is a little overstated.

On returning to his corner at the end of 14 he apparenlty said "I can't see them to good" in response to Futch's question about Ali's punches.

That is as much a cry for help as a man like Frazier would ever allow himself.

frazier fought this fight from the beginning and loads of fights before this blind in 1 eye

and he wanted out???? lol behave

[CrossedLine]

Ali would've quit. Ali was asking to get his gloves cut off when they ended the fight, he was quitting, he spit his mouthpiece out.

[ripcity]

They both had taken a lot out of each other. A lot would depend on rather or not Ali felt he was doing on the score cards. In reality he had a comfortable lead. If he felt he was a head enough to give the around away. He would have had done his best to stay away, and when he couldn't stay away he would have held. The result would be a unamious decision victory for Ali.
If Ali felt he needed to win the last round the winner of the round would be whoever could dig a little deeper than the other guy. Both Ali and Frazier were hurt, both were ready to be stopped. Frazier needed to stop Ali to win.