My All Time Top 5 HWTs (Ive no doubt)

[Bill Butcher]

I know the top /best of lists get done to death but the HWTs have always been difficult for me but now Im confident that I have a top 5 that Im comfortable with, here they are......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman


:good

[stonerose]

From one's i've seen, which eliminates shit loads it's ....


1. Ali
2. Tyson
3. Lewis
4. Frazier
5. Foreman



Shit list i know but hey ho :roll: Was tempted to include Liston but not seen enough and Holmes has a major case for being in there .

[jaffay]

Any reasons that Tyson is higher than Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis?

[stonerose]

Any reasons that Tyson is higher than Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman, Frazier, Lewis?


Just fucking loved the guy's style, for a brief spell i think he was as good as any HW bar Ali . I know this is controversial and is hard to back up cos his comp wasn't great and he fucked his career up .

Just my opinion, probably affected by my age , i grew up in his 80's heyday .

[flamengo]

Ali
Louis
Holyfield
..................4th and 5th remains open

[kosaros]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Holmes
5. Liston

Those who missed out; frazier, lewis, tyson, norton, johnson (have not seen enough/heard enough to put him in the list)

[sugar71]

Depends on the criteria also:

1) Ali (with his athleticism chin & heart I believe the man can at least out point anyone in HW history.

Holmes (see Ali

Lewis

Holyfield

Liston/Tyson?/Foreman

Always reluctant to include the 180/190 something pound Hw's of yesteryear.

[PowerPuncher]

I know the top /best of lists get done to death but the HWTs have always been difficult for me but now Im confident that I have a top 5 that Im comfortable with, here they are......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman


:good

Holyfield beat 3 of your top 5, and Jimmy Young possibly deserves the verdict over 2 of them :good

[Bill Butcher]

Holyfield beat 3 of your top 5, and Jimmy Young possibly deserves the verdict over 2 of them :good

But IMO absolutely NONE of that would have happened if they were all in their prime at the same time.

By your criteria, I should perhaps include Trevor Berbick for his victory over Ali.... after all, it was still Ali, or even James Toney for STOPPING Holy, fuck taking primes & whole careers into account right ?

Ps. Holyfield or Young would lose to every guy on my list prime for prime.
Holy doesnt make my top 10 HWTs either (nor does Young obviously)

[rekcutnevets]

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Lewis
Marciano
Foreman
Frazier
Holyfield
Tyson

[Rico Spadafora]

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey
5. Foreman

[downthatbottle]

1. Louis
2. Marciano
3. Ali
4. Lewis
5. Holmes
6. Johnson
7. Dempsey
8. Foreman
9. Tyson
10. Frazier

[janitor]

Based on acomplishments:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhamad Ali

3. Jack Johnson


4. It gets complicated

[Napoleon]

1. Audley Harrison
2. Muhammed Ali
3. David Haye
4. Audley Harrison
5. Lennox Lewis

[mr. magoo]

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Lewis
Marciano
Foreman
Frazier
Holyfield
Tyson

Now that's a hell of a good list:good Jack Johnson is a tad higher than I'd put him, but I can still live with it. Nice job.

[DINAMITA]

I know the top /best of lists get done to death but the HWTs have always been difficult for me but now Im confident that I have a top 5 that Im comfortable with, here they are......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman


:good

Sorry, but George Foreman is not a greater heavyweight than Lennox Lewis.

[Dempsey1238]

1 Louis
2 Ali
3 Johnson
4 Marciano
5 I suppose Dempsey on legends?

[Bill Butcher]

Sorry, but George Foreman is not a greater heavyweight than Lennox Lewis.

Lennox makes my top 10, I have him at no 9.
Its close between a lot of the guys. LL was more textbook than big George but George fought in the golden era & was only beat by Ali & Young (his heart & mind werent in boxing by the young fight), he destroyed fellow top 10 HWT Frazier twice along with a lot of good contenders in a similar manner... he was arguably the most powerfull HWT ever, reaching 41-0 before the Ali fight.

After 10 yrs out, he comes back to become the oldest HWT champ in history at 45... he even went the distance with guys like Holyfield in THEIR prime, they still couldnt KO him.

Prime for prime, I think he sparks Lewis, who`s chin let him down on a couple of occassions vs lets face it, shit fighters.


Big George deserves a high ranking :good

[Rise Above]

Joe Louis
Muhammed Ali
Jack Johnson
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes

[biglads]

1. Audley Harrison
2. Muhammed Ali
3. David Haye
4. Audley Harrison
5. Lennox Lewis

You forgot big Enzo :!:

[asero]

my top 10 all time HW

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Gene Tunney
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Larry Holmes

then, Foreman is not in My top 10...even Liston and frazier...
holyfield is not considered top 10 HW in many experts' lists but i would rank him at 9 ahead of holmes, foreman and frazier...

[PhillyPhan69]

1 Louis
2 Ali
3 Holmes
4 Marciano
5 Foreman
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 Lewis
9 Holyfield
10 Liston

Tyson #2...I can't even squezze him into a top 10...Top 15 (13 for me)

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by mr. magoo
Now that's a hell of a good list Jack Johnson is a tad higher than I'd put him, but I can still live with it. Nice job.
Thanks, that means a lot.

That has been my top 10 for several years now, but the order shifts now and then. Lewis has crept up a few spots in recent years, even though he has been inactive.

[Bummy Davis]

Louis
Marciano
Ali
Dempsey
Lewis

[Muchmoore]

I know the top /best of lists get done to death but the HWTs have always been difficult for me but now Im confident that I have a top 5 that Im comfortable with, here they are......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman


:good

Good list.

The top 3 is the same as mine. Holmes at 4 is good too, I usually have him around there. The only thing I can say is Foreman is a little too high, I have him near the bottom of the top ten but good list.

[Bill1234]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5..............Jack Johnson

I have been switching #5 a lot, I'm trying to decide if I should put Lennox Lewis there instead.

[asero]

how about charles, tunney and more..

holyfield is top 10 HW if you would consider only his career at HW..

[Napoleon]

You forgot big Enzo :!:

Whats wrong with me? He's supposed to big second.:patsch

[radianttwilight]

Ali/Louis (indistinguishable to me)
Marciano
Lewis
Holmes

Very clear-cut for me - Ali and Louis are the lock #1/#2, Marciano #3...etc

6-10 would look something like this -
Foreman/Tyson
Frazier/Liston
Holyfield

pre-Dempsey fighters excluded. Johnson would probably sneak into the 5-10 range.

Names for a top 11-20 (no order) -

Walcott
Charles
Patterson
Schmeling
Johansson
Norton
Wladimir Klitschko
Dempsey
Moore
Tunney

I am very uncomfortable the the Tunney and Moore picks. I'm sure I can find someone to replace them eventually.

[radianttwilight]

Ali/Louis (indistinguishable to me)
Marciano
Lewis
Holmes

Very clear-cut for me - Ali and Louis are the lock #1/#2, Marciano #3...etc

6-10 would look something like this -
Foreman/Tyson
Frazier/Liston
Holyfield

pre-Dempsey fighters excluded. Johnson would probably sneak into the 5-10 range.

Names for a top 11-20 (no order) -

Walcott
Charles
Patterson
Schmeling
Johansson
Norton
Wladimir Klitschko
Dempsey
Moore
Tunney
Bowe?

I am very uncomfortable the the Tunney and Moore picks. I'm sure I can find someone to replace them eventually.

I am very confident with my top 10 choices, if not entirely so with their order. The only name "missing" is Johnson, who I do not rate because it opens up a whole new can of worms, but he certainly deserves a top 10 placing. I would put Holyfield at #11 and give Johnson a top 10 spot if I were to include him.

Louis and Ali are a clear cut above anyone else.

Marciano - ditto. he'd be up on the Louis/Ali tier if he had fought more contenders, but going undefeated + KO'ing all of them (plus pretty much everyone) and beating no small number of ranked contenders himself has him as my CLEAR #3.

Lewis beat many ranked (and good ones, at that) contenders himself. What holds him back from being higher is that he was iced twice by ~mediocre fighters. He is only behind true greatness in Louis and Ali and perfection in Marciano. Not a low ranking by any means.

Holmes is like Lewis but he fought worse competition and cherrypicked to a greater extent later on. An impressive record, though, and his 90s resume is just gravy.

Foreman gets in because of his resume in the 1970s (bar the Greatest himself and his poor performance against Young). His 1990s resume is greater than Holmes' but he has a lot more ground to make up because of his 1970s losses. I rate his comeback very highly, though.

I rate Tyson very highly because I think that the best version of Tyson that we saw never lost. In the same way that Ali was diminished by the time he lost to Frazier, I think Tyson had deteriorated in both physical condition and technique as early as Bruno I and certainly so by Douglas. His 1990s/2000s resume gives enough "beef" to make me confident that his 1980s self was good enough for a #5/#6 ranking.

Frazier had an impressive run to the title and the win over Ali. He was demolished by Foreman, which I am partly willing to excuse because of a terrible styles matchup + questionable refereeing + poor physical condition, but the fact is that he did not face that many ranked contenders (compared to Ali, Louis, Lewis, etc.) and did not beat + dominate all of them (like Marciano did). He did alot in a short career, but to break the top 5 you have to do even more in a LONG career and not get dominated like he was.


Liston is comparable to Frazier in that he was a true destroyer when coming up through the ranks. Liston's 1958-1962 run is very impressive and his losses to Marshall and Martin are not held in high regard because of their placements in his career (he also avenged Marshall). Ali I, even though I consider it a bit post-prime (think Tyson-Bruno I), is damaging to his ranking, but I am convinced enough that Ali II was a dive that I do not doubly/triply penalize him for quitting/being stopped/losing to the same guy twice. Liston beat a good deal of ranked contenders via domination and only lost to the Greatest himself during his prime/near-prime. He also had an overlooked run post-Ali that is worth some consideration.

I do not rank Holyfield as highly as many. I don't think he was ever the real best man in the HW division at any time. I rate him rather highly in a p4p sense because he was a truly great CW that moved up and mad serious noise at HW while mostly past his best, but being past your best does not justify a record that is, quite accurately, hit-or-miss. He was thoroughly beaten by Bowe in their trilogy and 1-1 with Moorer during his early years at HW. His wins over Foreman and especially Holmes are not overtly impressive. All in all, he beat some good (and average) contenders like Mercer, Dokes, Stewart, et al. He was well past his best by the time of the Lewis fights but did not impress me very much there either. His best wins are undoubtedly the two over Tyson, but I do not think they do enough to overshadow going 1-2 against Bowe (who, despite his talent, never really did that much else in an ATG sense) and losing to Moorer.

EDIT - completely forgot about Wills! 8-12ish for him, most likely.

[Seamus]

What are the criteria for this list? Legacy? Head to Head? Championship record? These lists mean nothing without context. And under very few contexts- outside of social importance- can Jack Johnson be included in a top-5.

[Bill Butcher]

What are the criteria for this list? Legacy? Head to Head? Championship record? These lists mean nothing without context. And under very few contexts- outside of social importance- can Jack Johnson be included in a top-5.

The list is personal, so whatever YOU value most.

I try to consider everything, I regard primes, H2H ability & skillset higher than most posters personally.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Always makes me giggle when people put Tyson, Holyfield or Marciano ahead of Lewis. But hey. thats their cross to bare!!
Over their whole career:

1&2) Louis/Ali
3&4)Lewis/Holmes
5)Marciano/Foreman

I never understand why people place boxers high of a list purely because at their peak they were amazing or because of one fight. Lots of people still hold boxers in high regard even after they fight on for too long.

A basic example:
I see Holyfield being placed ahead of Lewis on lists here. Are you for real???
Since when in this day and age does -
Holyfield 42-10-2 27Ko's Equal greatness?
Loses to Ruiz, Ibragimov, Donald, Toney, Byrd. Is this top 5 all time material?
Guess I must have missed the joke.
Oh, and ring magazines Top 50 all time greats 2005 is just as Biased and ridiculous.

Evander Holyfield - 3
Riddick Bowe - 23
Lennox Lewis - 32

Is this some sort of joke also? That right their tells me all I need to know about Ring Magazines lists.

[Holmes' Jab]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Rocky Marciano

then...

6. Sonny Liston
7. Jack Johnson
8. Joe Frazier
9. Mike Tyson
10. Evander Holyfield


PS: Top 5 is clear for the most part in my view, Marciano just edges out Liston careerwise, though isn't as formidable head to head against the very best and would lose if they ever fought each other. Johnson has been the only mover for this past long while. I've now read, seen and heard enough for him to be confident of where he now is on my list.

[JohnThomas1]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano

[Godfather]

I take it this is in a head to head sense. p4p id have Langford, Louis, Ali, Foreman, Holmes

h2h id have Louis, Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Tyson

[Holmes' Jab]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Rocky Marciano


Same guys as me, though different order. Top two are set in stone I think (I have Louis over Ali), but very close after that.

[JohnThomas1]

Same guys as me, though different order. Top two are set in stone I think (I have Louis over Ali), but very close after that.

Indeed mate. I was actually going to quote yours and comment on our orders. Top 2 deffo cast in stone IMO. I poured for hours making my top 5 a bit back and am very happy with em.

[Minotauro]

Johnson has a better resume then Foreman, Holmes and Tyson he is easily top five probably number 3. Tyson is way too high how many great wins does he have?

[Bill Butcher]

I strongly disagree. For me Lewis is a top 50 ATG, and Foreman maybe a top 80, but maybe not even that. The more I study Foreman the more my opinion of him slides a little.

I have encountered your strangely low opinion of Lewis before though (in threads where you cannot believe that many rank him considerably higher in all-time p4p terms than Joe Calzaghe - which he so clearly does IMO!), so I am not surprised!

Foreman beat Frazier twice, and you can't argue with those wins. Two real top quality hw wins. After that??? I don't see what was so great about his career at all.

He stopped Norton in two, but I'm not sure how impressive a feat that was. I think Norton is too highly rated because he was a tough match stylistically for Ali. Norton had been KO'd by a journeyman before he fought Big George, and both Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney put him away in the 1st round (this is maybe a bit unfair as Norton was well past-prime by then, but two 1st round KO defeats are there on his record).

George was very very nearly KO'd by Ron Lyle (the Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman of the Golden Era maybe??), and lost to Jimmy Young (record 20-5-2 at the time) - not a shock KO due to complacency like Lewis suffered, but simply a defeat by a better boxer on the night. Lewis was never outboxed and defeated.


And that was that for Big George in the Golden Era. World champion for one year. Two great wins, one or two good ones, KO'd by Ali, took to the brink by Lyle, beaten by Young.



The comeback was thoroughly underwhelming. Years of mediocrity alleviated by a one-punch KO of a former light-heavyweight champion after having been completely outboxed. Best wins were that win over Moorer, Moorer's fellow former lhw Qawi, and guys the standard of Cooper and Cooney. Foreman got a gift v Axel Schulz in his first defence and soon lost to Shannon Briggs.


I cannot understand how anyone could think this was a superior career to Lewis's at all.

I concede there is not a whole world/tier of difference between Lewis & Foreman, if someone wants Lewis ahead of Foreman thats fine & I actually do rate Lewis, I just think he gets overrated on ESB.

I seriously considered putting Liston as my no5 but it was George winning the title at 45 that edged out Sonny, I think Liston was a little better in their primes, I know you were not impressed by George`s 2nd coming but he still did what no other HWT had ever done at that age & previously he had 10 YEARS out of the ring, I could count on a saudi arabian thiefs hand how many HWTs are likely to do that again in my lifetime.

Ps. Foreman`s stoppage of iron chinned Chuvalo was mighty impressive too when he was a very young man.

:thumbsup

[Bill Butcher]

I know the top /best of lists get done to death but the HWTs have always been difficult for me but now Im confident that I have a top 5 that Im comfortable with, here they are......

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Mike Tyson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman


:good

I have to make a small adjustment to my list (Im still keeping the same 5)

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Tyson
5. Foreman

:good