Your top 10 SMW list...?

[Amsterdam]

Instead of this being a standard list, post 2 lists, the first being if Calzaghe defeats Kessler, the second being if Kessler defeats Calzaghe.

What do you have?:think

[TBooze]

Calzaghe wins:

1 Joe Calzaghe
2 Chong Pal Park
3 Roy Jones Jr
4 Nigel Benn
5 Chris Eubank
6 Steve Collins
7 Sven Ottke
8 James Toney
9 Frankie Liles
10 Byron Mitchell

Mentions: Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Thulani Malinga, Charles Brewster, Richie Woodhall, Eric Lucas and Mikkel Kessler

Calzaghe loses:

1 Joe Calzaghe
2 Chong Pal Park
3 Roy Jones Jr
4 Nigel Benn
5 Chris Eubank
6 Mikkel Kessler
7 Steve Collins
8 Sven Ottke
9 James Toney
10 Frankie Liles

Mentions: Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Thulani Malinga, Charles Brewster, Richie Woodhall, Byron Mitchell and Eric Lucas

[cross_trainer]

I haven't thought about it, so I'll make a preliminary top 5 list:


Wins:

1. Fitzsimmons
2. Calzaghe
3. Park
4. Jones Jr.
5. Choynski

Loses:

1. Fitzsimmons
2. Kessler
3. Park
4. Jones Jr.
5. Calzaghe

[TBooze]

I haven't thought about it, so I'll make a preliminary top 5 list:


Wins:

1. Fitzsimmons
2. Calzaghe
3. Park
4. Jones Jr.
5. Choynski

Loses:

1. Fitzsimmons
2. Kessler
3. Park
4. Jones Jr.
5. Calzaghe

If you are going down that path (also rating fighters who had excellent careers between 160 and 168 pre 1983), no place for Greb or Moore?

[Amsterdam]

If you are going down that path (also rating fighters who had excellent careers between 160 and 168 pre 1983), no place for Greb?

I meant in the divisions history, which would be after it's creation, knowing guys like Janitor and the legendary Cross Trainer, I should have specified.:yep

[brooklyn1550]

Calzaghe Wins
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Roy Jones, Jr.
3. James Toney
4. Chris Eubank
5. Nigel Benn

Kessler Wins
1. Roy Jones, Jr.
2. James Toney
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Chris Eubank
5. Nigel Benn

[My dinner with Conteh]

Why do you have Park ahead of Benn? Benn defended title as many times and was a better fighter.

[TBooze]

Why do you have Park ahead of Benn? Benn defended title as many times and was a better fighter.

Park was a pioneer of the division and was the World Champion at the weight for four years making 10 successful defences. Benn was only a titlist, although yes he had the better wins on paper.

[cross_trainer]

I meant in the divisions history, which would be after it's creation, knowing guys like Janitor and the legendary Cross Trainer, I should have specified.:yep

My apologies. :D

I still think, of all the guys mentioned, Fitz still deserves the credit. He was essentially an old supermiddleweight (167) fighting heavies. 'Twould be interesting, if Calzaghe beats Kessler, to debate Fitz vs. Calzaghe in a "greatness" and "head to head" sense in honor of the occasion. :good

[Amsterdam]

Calzaghe victory:

1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Roy Jones Jr
3. Chris Eubank
4. Nigel Benn
5. Steve Collins
6. Chong Pal Pak
7. James Toney
8. Mikkel Kessler(Think about his resume still)
9. Frankie Liles
10. Richie Woodhall

Kessler victory:

1. Roy Jones Jr
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Chris Eubank
4. Mikkel Kessler
5. Nigel Benn
6. Steve Collins
7. Chong Pal Pak
8. James Toney
9. Frankie Liles
10. Richie Woodhall

Note that I dismiss Ottke completely, I don't rate his fraudulent, corrupt career, nor his 7 gift decision wins.

[Amsterdam]

My apologies. :D

I still think, of all the guys mentioned, Fitz still deserves the credit. He was essentially an old supermiddleweight (167) fighting heavies. 'Twould be interesting, if Calzaghe beats Kessler, to debate Fitz vs. Calzaghe in a "greatness" and "head to head" sense in honor of the occasion. :good

:yep

I think you know by now how I view fighters from that old of an era, I rate them for their era accomplishment, but in head to head, especially since I was shredding Joe Louis' abilities to compete at the modern level, imagine where I would rate Fitz head to head, especially if there is any video of him, which there is not to my knowledge.:yep

Though, as you and I also know, it would likely be a 20 page thread full of memorable material...:yep

[cross_trainer]

Though, as you and I also know, it would likely be a 20 page thread full of memorable material...:yep

And that, my friend, is precisely why it should be made. :good

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, you proved already you´re just a hater when nobody agreed with that 7 gift decision in your other thread.

I'm not "just a hater", I have plenty of just reasons to call on Ottke's run. And while I didn't get people to agree to my 7 gift decision call, I at least got 4-5 from several legitimate posters, and that's not even discussing the corruption coming from other ends that have nothing to do with scoring.

That's well enough to drop him from any top 10 list, because you count the corruption, anywhere from 3-5 essentially universally considered losses, which break his title defence "record"(which is what gives most reason to rank him) and then ducking Calzaghe and not accepting any challenges outside of Germany(where the tricks couldn't be pulled).

You can call on Calzaghe not fighting outside of the UK much, but he damn well would have had the challenges been issued and team Calzaghe offered plenty of offers for a unification fight in Germany, I am just stating this before hand...:yep ;)

[Amsterdam]

And that, my friend, is precisely why it should be made. :good

I don't know if it should commense though, there are some things that you just can't mess with and my favourite fighter seems to bring an either "love him" or "hate him" vibe, even though post-Lacy there has been some universal respect laid down.

I'm not a nuthugger, but I am a massive fan and can be biased a little, even though I seek at all costs for fairness and unbiased views because I view fanboyism to be a negative respect on any discussion, but my true thoughts on Calzaghe vs. Fitz in a head to head comparison and not a legacy comparison are going to bring some people to view me as not legitimate in other discussions.:lol:

[Amsterdam]

I won´t argue with you. You fall in a categorie of posters together with zakman, senya and redrooster. Posters who know what they are talking about but are too biased on certain subject to be taken serious. Taking to a wall isn´t worth my time.

Comparing me to a knowledgeable and progressive poster like Zakman is fine by me, but don't underrate me because I like to discuss all aspects of boxing and you may find things you agree me with me.

I could also say likewise that you being from Germany, which Ottke was well accepted in Germany, could make you biased on the issue of Ottke.

Most international boxing fans counted at the very least 3 blatant robberies and at least 4 other swing fights, this includes American, British, Italian, French and even Swiss boxing fans that I have known, the Germans are the only ones who give him leniency on the issue because he's a national.

Anyways, why don't you post your top 10 that takes both results into consideration, to become officially apart of this threads discussion.:D

[cross_trainer]

I don't know if it should commense though, there are some things that you just can't mess with and my favourite fighter seems to bring an either "love him" or "hate him" vibe, even though post-Lacy there has been some universal respect laid down.

I'm not a nuthugger, but I am a massive fan and can be biased a little, even though I seek at all costs for fairness and unbiased views because I view fanboyism to be a negative respect on any discussion, but my true thoughts on Calzaghe vs. Fitz in a head to head comparison and not a legacy comparison are going to bring some people to view me as not legitimate in other discussions.:lol:

:lol:

It's possible, but at the same time I've always been a little (perhaps jokingly) fanatical about Fitz's abilities, so our biases should cancel each other out. There's (just) enough Youtube and Google Book evidence on Fitz's style that we can dissect it (and Calzaghe's) in the same way we did Louis's.

Besides, debates that we have an emotional stake in (as long as we keep the arguments themselves polite and objective) are often the most enlightening.

So...shall we set a date with destiny after the Calzaghe-Kessler bout is concluded? Perhaps something like, "Calzaghe vs. Fitzsimmons: A Great Supermiddle in Retrospect". :think

[Amsterdam]

:lol:

It's possible, but at the same time I've always been a little (perhaps jokingly) fanatical about Fitz's abilities, so our biases should cancel each other out. There's (just) enough Youtube and Google Book evidence on Fitz's style that we can dissect it (and Calzaghe's) in the same way we did Louis's.

Besides, debates that we have an emotional stake in (as long as we keep the arguments themselves polite and objective) are often the most enlightening.

So...shall we set a date with destiny after the Calzaghe-Kessler bout is concluded? Perhaps something like, "Calzaghe vs. Fitzsimmons: A Great Supermiddle in Retrospect". :think

Sure thing, only it needs one change in the title, "Calzaghe vs. Fitzsimmons: Supernatural fighters of 168 in retrospect".:D

[cross_trainer]

Sure thing, only it needs one change in the title, "Calzaghe vs. Fitzsimmons: Supernatural fighters of 168 in retrospect".:D

:rofl

Correct, except for one detail. Fitz was only 168 pounds for five minutes (after eating half of Detroit) before his superhuman metabolism brought him back to the perfect 167 lbs. Only one photograph of a 168 lb. Fitzsimmons has survived:








































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[McGrain]

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:lol:

But your mistaken, of course, that is Hatton.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Park was a pioneer of the division and was the World Champion at the weight for four years making 10 successful defences. Benn was only a titlist, although yes he had the better wins on paper.


A pioneer? The division was boxing's laughing stock until the 1990s (or specifically after Leonard and Tommy won trinkets). Journeymen (and that's being kind) like Roy Gumbs received shots at the crown usually by getting sparked and iced- often a pre-requisite for super-middles in the 1980s. Park also fought exclusively in Korea...there's bad decisions, then there's 'Korean decisions' and struggled with every half-decent fighter he ever fought.