Frazier vs Foreman 2

[garymcfall]

I thought Frazier fought a decent tactical fight in this one, although it didnt work out for him. But supposing the fight went on a bit later, Foreman got tired and Frazier won a unanimous decision, avenging his destruction at the hands of George from the first fight.

How is Fraziers all time great ranking affected, and how is Foremans affected?

[mr. magoo]

Both men's rating would surely be affected, however I think Frazier's would be more so than George's. If Joe had avenged such a horribly one sided loss, at incredible odds, he probably would have been bumped up a notch on a lot of people's all time great list. George on the otherhand, probably wouldn't move as much, given that the memory of his first victory would still sit strong in the minds of most people.

[garymcfall]

Infact id like to add to this question - If Frazier had beaten Foreman would it have diminished the importance of Ali's earlier win over Foreman as well? Even slightly?

[jhar26]

I thought Frazier fought a decent tactical fight in this one, although it didnt work out for him. But supposing the fight went on a bit later, Foreman got tired and Frazier won a unanimous decision, avenging his destruction at the hands of George from the first fight.

How is Fraziers all time great ranking affected, and how is Foremans affected?
Frazier would no doubt go up a bit in the ATG rankings of most people. If Frazier had won that fight maybe there even would have been a fourth fight with Ali. Impossible to predict how that one would have gone because both were way past their peak at that point.

[jhar26]

Infact id like to add to this question - If Frazier had beaten Foreman would it have diminished the importance of Ali's earlier win over Foreman as well? Even slightly?
I don't think so. It would be argued that Foreman wasn't the same fighter anymore after fighting Ali.

[clark]

Frazier was not in the best of shape in the second fight, even heavier than George! Had Joe been in better shape and not have fought in Manilla, there is a chance Frazier could have taken this into the later rounds. George was getting a little winded from all of his punching.

[Lex]

It's moot. Frazier didn't have the style to give Foreman serious trouble. He actually clobbered George with some pretty good shots during their first fight and nothing seemed to hurt Foreman.

Sure, eventually Frazier's shots could grind anyone down. But he'd need time and he'd never get it against Foreman. Assuming both were in good shape, Joe would need several rounds to chop down George, and I don't see him getting enough time to do it. Foreman's early power would always overwhelm Frazier.

[round15]

Joe was practically done as a heavyweight after Manilla. His vision was severely deteriorated to the point where he dangerously wore contact lenses against Foreman in the second fight in Uniondale. Eddie Futch was saying that Frazier shoudn't have fought Foreman so soon after taking Ali to near death in Manilla. Frazier apparently put off cataract surgery to be able to avenge his loss to Foreman. The tactics Eddie Futch employed in the Foreman rematch were right, but Joe didn't have the shape, legs or the vision to sustain any type of serious offense against Foreman. He landed some good left hooks in both fights though. He was doing OK in the first minute of the 1973 fight before George started pushing and shoving him around illegally in order to tee off on him. Foreman was perhaps at his best the second time around and he said that he was still scared of Frazier even though he had beaten him before.

I'd still say if Joe was in the shape he was from 1967 - 1970 against Foreman, George would probably have a much, much tougher fight and I dare say the outcome could have been different. Take nothing away from what Foreman did to Frazier both times. He fought the textbook fight both times on how to beat Frazier by keeping him at arms length and not letting him get inside.

[mcvey]

It's moot. Frazier didn't have the style to give Foreman serious trouble. He actually clobbered George with some pretty good shots during their first fight and nothing seemed to hurt Foreman.

Sure, eventually Frazier's shots could grind anyone down. But he'd need time and he'd never get it against Foreman. Assuming both were in good shape, Joe would need several rounds to chop down George, and I don't see him getting enough time to do it. Foreman's early power would always overwhelm Frazier.
Frazier's hooks got no reaction from George.

[round15]

Frazier's hooks got no reaction from George.

Joe landed a couple of hooks in the first minute of the first fight with George and backed him up. It was only after this first minute where Foreman started to push, shove, and grab Fraziers shoulders to illegally set up his own punches.

Frazier was more depleted after Manilla as a fighter and he didn't have much left in his tank to do any serious damage to Foreman. He lasted nearly five rounds circling and bobbing, but I believe George was at or near his very best in the rematch with Frazier.

[CANNONBALL]

If They Fought 100 Times Foreman Would Win By Ko 100 Times. Styles....

[Bill Butcher]

Prime Frazier might beat Foreman if he can get past 4 or 5 rds, he`d have to at 1st fight like he did in their 2nd fight, lateral movement, bob & weave when cornered & bull rush George any chance he gets, bury his head in Georges chest, attack the liver & time that left hook to perfection then get his guard up quickly much like he fought Ali in the mid rds in Manila.

Every time GF pushes him back he should just back off rather than steaming back in because thats when big GF is gonna nail him, with those big looping shots... Joe should work inside & I mean REALLY inside, head glued to the chest as GF doesnt have anywhere near as much power when in close.

Very important that Joe backs off once pushed back, gets his lateral movement going again & look for that bull rush to get inside, thats the key for him to win, I feel its the only way he can win.

Now, with all that said.... Id still fancy GF to win by TKO due to the styles but if prime Frazier fought this way & won, Id not be a bit suprised.

:thumbsup

[round15]

Prime Frazier might beat Foreman if he can get past 4 or 5 rds, he`d have to at 1st fight like he did in their 2nd fight, lateral movement, bob & weave when cornered & bull rush George any chance he gets, bury his head in Georges chest, attack the liver & time that left hook to perfection then get his guard up quickly much like he fought Ali in the mid rds in Manila.

Every time GF pushes him back he should just back off rather than steaming back in because thats when big GF is gonna nail him, with those big looping shots... Joe should work inside & I mean REALLY inside, head glued to the chest as GF doesnt have anywhere near as much power when in close.

Very important that Joe backs off once pushed back, gets his lateral movement going again & look for that bull rush to get inside, thats the key for him to win, I feel its the only way he can win.

Now, with all that said.... Id still fancy GF to win by TKO due to the styles but if prime Frazier fought this way & won, Id not be a bit suprised.

:thumbsup


I agree with you that styles make fights, but another referee might have penalized George for his pushing and shoving in the first fight and maybe a warning in the second fight.

Definitely prime Frazier has a legit shot at beating Foreman if he's allowed to work inside without being mauled and shoved aside at the shoulders. The key for Frazier is being able to get past the early rounds and work Foreman to the body in the middle rounds.

[BlackWater]

I agree with you that styles make fights, but another referee might have penalized George for his pushing and shoving in the first fight and maybe a warning in the second fight.

Definitely prime Frazier has a legit shot at beating Foreman if he's allowed to work inside without being mauled and shoved aside at the shoulders. The key for Frazier is being able to get past the early rounds and work Foreman to the body in the middle rounds.

That's what I'm saying. Prime fraizer on the inside in the late rounds would definitely do some damage to foreman.

[round15]

That's what I'm saying. Prime fraizer on the inside in the late rounds would definitely do some damage to foreman.

This is exactly the reason why I'm not sold on those who keep saying Foreman KO's Frazier every time they fight.

Frazier wasn't too far past his prime age-wise in 1973, but he was most definitely far from his prime shape when he fought Foreman in 1973.

A prime, in shape Frazier would give George a much tougher fight and is probably a lock to make it past the early rounds. If Foreman doesn't KO Frazier before the middle of the fight, Frazier probably TKO's George inside 10 rounds or takes a unanimous decision.

[MachineGunMitch]

nobody beats a prime forman,ever.........then or today










cept Ali

[he grant]

Styles make fights and Frazier, brave and tough as hell, was simply made for Foreman. There may not have been another fighter in history that could have bombed Joe out that way but he had the misfortune of running into the one that could. Foreman's size, strength and power were simply too much for the smaller guy ... the second fight was a bit interesting as Joe tried to shift strategies and managed to survive a bit longer but he also ended up getting really hurt ... would it have changed his legacy? Tough to say. Anyone that knows boxing knows that from 68 - 71, four years, Joe Frazier was a great heavyweight fighter and belongs on anyone's short list of all time greats. Even by the first Ali fight he was having vision problems. By the Foreman fight it was worse and he had arm issues as well. He simply was not what he was and I personally feel even at his best he simply does not beat Foreman.