Why didnt Wills fight Greb,Tunney,Gibbons,Godfrey?

[mcvey]

Well why not?

[OLD FOGEY]

Well why not?

When was Wills under an obligation to fight any of them. Anyway, do you have any quote from Wills on Tunney, Greb, Gibbons, or Godfrey, or for that matter Dempsey, such as this one from Dempsey on Wills:

Time Magazine 1-7-1924

"All this talk that I'm afraid to fight Harry Wills is getting on my nerves. Let me get in the ring with Harry and I'll win in a round or two."

It is amazing to me that Dempsey's supporters quote this embarressing bragging in order to prove that Dempsey "was not afraid of Wills" when he never in fact got into the ring with the man.

[janitor]

When was Wills under an obligation to fight any of them. Anyway, do you have any quote from Wills on Tunney, Greb, Gibbons, or Godfrey, or for that matter Dempsey, such as this one from Dempsey on Wills:

Time Magazine 1-7-1924

"All this talk that I'm afraid to fight Harry Wills is getting on my nerves. Let me get in the ring with Harry and I'll win in a round or two."

It is amazing to me that Dempsey's supporters quote this embarressing bragging in order to prove that Dempsey "was not afraid of Wills" when he never in fact got into the ring with the man.

Well he did sign articles to fight him twice.

Some of his critics try to pretend that this didnt happen.

No Wills wasnt obliged to fight the No2 challenger but he sure as hell didnt want to and that imples that the length of his tenure as No1 contender might be an artefact of his unwillingnes to fight other top contenders.

You can reiterate that he was not obliged to do this but Tommy Gibbons certainly put his No2 ranking on the line against some tough customers over this pereiod.

[Mendoza]

Well why not?


The papers say an older Wills did not want to fight Tunney. Godfrey's manager made 8 offers over a span of years to fight Wills. Not sure about Greb or Gibbions.

[klompton]

Its easy to sign articles for a fight you know your never going to have to participate in...

[mr. magoo]

Its easy to sign articles for a fight you know your never going to have to participate in...


I'm not desputing your statement, but do we know for a fact that Dempsey's signing to fight Wills was nothing more than a media stunt?

[janitor]

Its easy to sign articles for a fight you know your never going to have to participate in...

That is an extroardinary statment.

How could Dempsey know that:

A. The New York State Athletic comission would refuse to sanction a bout.

or

B. His cheque would bounce after another offer.

It seems to me that while previous white champions simply said "no and never" Dempsey was at least prepared to consider it. Perhaps he even went a bit beyond the call of duty to make it happen.

[OLD FOGEY]

I'm not desputing your statement, but do we know for a fact that Dempsey's signing to fight Wills was nothing more than a media stunt?

Kevin Smith posted a few years back that it was only that and in fact there was an escape clause that Dempsey's lawyer had to sign for it to be an "official" signing.

My take--Indiana was the stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the northern part of the United States in the 1920's. It might or might not be an exaggeration to say they called the tune on racial matters in Indiana, but there was no doubt they had a great deal of political influence. Why try to put on a fight in a state in which the governor and the legislature will immediately get up in arms at the Klan's urging? It makes you wonder.

Dempsey actually gave up his license in New York State rather than fight Wills in that state.

[mr. magoo]

Kevin Smith posted a few years back that it was only that and in fact there was an escape clause that Dempsey's lawyer had to sign for it to be an "official" signing.

My take--Indiana was the stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan in the northern part of the United States in the 1920's. It might or might not be an exaggeration to say they called the tune on racial matters in Indiana, but there was no doubt they had a great deal of political influence. Why try to put on a fight in a state in which the governor and the legislature will immediately get up in arms at the Klan's urging? It makes you wonder.

Dempsey actually gave up his license in New York State rather than fight Wills in that state.


This does sound rather convincing now that you've provided some of the history. Giving up a boxing license in a major media venue such as New York, suggests going through great lengths to avoid a challenge, as does designing a contract with an escape clause.

Frankly, it doesn't seem to me like the appologists have much to work with. The writing on the wall is pretty clear.

[Bummy Davis]

Wills would have made money with Dempsey win or lose but the other guys would have not brought in that type of dough

[OLD FOGEY]

That is an extroardinary statment.

How could Dempsey know that:

A. The New York State Athletic comission would refuse to sanction a bout.

or

B. His cheque would bounce after another offer.

It seems to me that while previous white champions simply said "no and never" Dempsey was at least prepared to consider it. Perhaps he even went a bit beyond the call of duty to make it happen.

The fight was signed for Indiana, not New York. New York State suspended Dempsey's license when he refused to sign to fight Wills in that state.

There is no doubt Wills got the run around. TIME MAGAZINE 4-7-1924:

"Tex Rickard--'Wills agrees to fight any heavyweight I select leading up to a meeting with Dempsey.' Wills was expected to meet Firpo. If Firpo retires, Wills would fight Spalla. If Wills wins, Rickard will let him have at Dempsey in September."

Now I personally don't see how you can criticize Wills when Rickard quotes him as being willing to fight "any heavyweight I select" in order to get that long-awaited shot at Dempsey. Of course, Wills did fight and defeat Firpo and the result? TIME MAGAZINE 7-27-1925:

"Jack Dempsey reached an agreement to fight whomever Tex Rickard should select--one bout this year, one next. His first opponent will be Gene Tunney, George Godfrey, or Jack Renault. Then, if not defeated, he will face Harry Wills."

What the hell is this? Wills fights and wins Rickard's elimination and so falls behind three other guys for a shot. Come on. There is really nothing to debate here. Wills got the shaft. Anyone can see that. The only real question is whether this is all Rickard's doing or is Rickard running into a stone wall when he tries to get Dempsey into the ring with Wills.

[OLD FOGEY]

Well he did sign articles to fight him twice.

Some of his critics try to pretend that this didnt happen.

No Wills wasnt obliged to fight the No2 challenger but he sure as hell didnt want to and that imples that the length of his tenure as No1 contender might be an artefact of his unwillingnes to fight other top contenders.

You can reiterate that he was not obliged to do this but Tommy Gibbons certainly put his No2 ranking on the line against some tough customers over this pereiod.

I think that most of this post is simply wrong-headed.

As the quote from Tex Rickard taken from TIME MAGAZINE indicates, Wills was willing to fight any man Rickard selected in order to get to Dempsey. Rickard selected Firpo.

Who were these tough men that Gibbons was fighting? Carpentier? He was over the hill and losing to almost everyone by 1924. Norfolk? This is better. He was a rated lightheavy, but Wills had in fact risked his #1 rating fighting Norfolk and had blown him away. And Wills was not ducking the top contenders in 1924 and 1925. He fought Firpo in 1924. My guess is that Firpo would have been the #2 contender behind Wills when they fought. That loss and another one to Weinert dropped him to #7 by the end of the year. In 1925 Wills fought Weinert, the #3 contender in the 1924 RING MAGAZINE ratings.

[ChrisPontius]

I'm not desputing your statement, but do we know for a fact that Dempsey's signing to fight Wills was nothing more than a media stunt?


Well, that's really simple:


They never fought.


Actions speak louder than words ... or contracts. Rickard was a smart manager who wasn't going to risk his money cow. He's like an old school Rock Newman, perhaps without the punk attitude, but certainly with the same amount of greed and if that means disgracing the title, then so be it.







This thread is kind of funny, though. Now, instead of Dempsey, the champion, having an "obligation" to fight the seven-years established #1, that #1 contender's status is being doubted and whether he "proved" himself. :lol:

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3344619]The fight was signed for Indiana, not New York. New York State suspended Dempsey's license when he refused to sign to fight Wills in that state.


It wasnt just Indiana.

The same New York State Athletic comision that suspended Dempseys liscence for not fighting Wills refused to mandate the fight in the same state.

Even after they took his liscence for not fighting Wills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There is no doubt Wills got the run around. TIME MAGAZINE 4-7-1924:


I dont think anybody is disputing that Wills got the runaround bigtime.

What we have to question is to what extent was Dempsey complicit and to what extent was he swept away by forces around him.

Tex Rickard claimed that the voices arguing against the bout included "oficials in Washington". His words.

Wills got the shaft. Anyone can see that. The only real question is whether this is all Rickard's doing or is Rickard running into a stone wall when he tries to get Dempsey into the ring with Wills.

That is precisely the question and I lean towards the former explanation.

I think Wills did as well from what I can discern.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]


It wasnt just Indiana.

The same New York State Athletic comision that suspended Dempseys liscence for not fighting Wills refused to mandate the fight in the same state.

Even after they took his liscence for not fighting Wills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I dont think anybody is disputing that Wills got the runaround bigtime.

What we have to question is to what extent was Dempsey complicit and to what extent was he swept away by forces around him.

Tex Rickard claimed that the voices arguing against the bout included "oficials in Washington". His words.



That is precisely the question and I lean towards the former explanation.

I think Wills did as well from what I can discern.

You are right about the New York Athletic Commission, but I believe it was William Muldoon and his really bizarre complaints about ticket pricing which supposedly sunk a Dempsey-Wills fight in 1922. By 1925 and 1926 James Farley, a real power in politics who was later Postmaster General under Roosevelt and considered a frontrunner for the 1940 Democratic presidential nomination until FDR decided to run for a third term, was on the Commission and he, at least publicly, was pushing for a Dempsey-Wills fight. We might question his sincerity, but in fairness to Farley he was a behind the scenes force in getting boxing desegregated in the 1930's. Politics in the USA was as corrupt then as it is now. Apparently top politicians often put up a stink about high visibility fights until their palms were greased by the promoters.

On Dempsey--I'm not certain what his real role was, but one thing I would criticize him for--his bragging about what he would have done with Wills. It may not have been in the cards for Dempsey and Wills to fight given the racial and political climate of the time, but certainly Dempsey should have seen that it was in extreme bad taste to trash a fighter whom he should have defended against but didn't for whatever reason.

[mcvey]

Well, that's really simple:


They never fought.


Actions speak louder than words ... or contracts. Rickard was a smart manager who wasn't going to risk his money cow. He's like an old school Rock Newman, perhaps without the punk attitude, but certainly with the same amount of greed and if that means disgracing the title, then so be it.







This thread is kind of funny, though. Now, instead of Dempsey, the champion, having an "obligation" to fight the seven-years established #1, that #1 contender's status is being doubted and whether he "proved" himself. :lol:
Rickard was a promoter Kearns was the manager.

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3345405][quote=janitor;3345138]

You are right about the New York Athletic Commission, but I believe it was William Muldoon and his really bizarre complaints about ticket pricing which supposedly sunk a Dempsey-Wills fight in 1922. By 1925 and 1926 James Farley, a real power in politics who was later Postmaster General under Roosevelt and considered a frontrunner for the 1940 Democratic presidential nomination until FDR decided to run for a third term, was on the Commission and he, at least publicly, was pushing for a Dempsey-Wills fight. We might question his sincerity, but in fairness to Farley he was a behind the scenes force in getting boxing desegregated in the 1930's. Politics in the USA was as corrupt then as it is now. Apparently top politicians often put up a stink about high visibility fights until their palms were greased by the promoters.


So you would conceed the general point that we have a highly intricate web of shenanigans in which Dempsey and Wills are only two of the players.


On Dempsey--I'm not certain what his real role was, but one thing I would criticize him for--his bragging about what he would have done with Wills. It may not have been in the cards for Dempsey and Wills to fight given the racial and political climate of the time, but certainly Dempsey should have seen that it was in extreme bad taste to trash a fighter whom he should have defended against but didn't for whatever reason.


I am not comparing Dempseys plight to that of Wills but he probably thought he was getting it in the neck from all sides.

Wills suporters were criticising him for not fighting Wills.

The poweres that be were putting him under presure not to fight Wills.

The New York State Athletic Comission said that he had to fight Wills but that he had to find another venue to do it because they didnt want the fallout on their doorstep.

He was probably prety pissed off.

Wills said that he didnt blame Dempsey for the fight not happening. He was a gentlemanand might have been giving Dempsey the benefit of the doubt publ;icaly at least.

Bottom line is, I think that it is a mistake to view this as a black and whgite issue (no pun intended) either way.

[mcvey]

[quote]
[quote=OLD FOGEY;3345405]

So you would conceed the general point that we have a highly intricate web of shenanigans in which Dempsey and Wills are only two of the players.



I am not comparing Dempseys plight to that of Wills but he probably thought he was getting it in the neck from all sides.

Wills suporters were criticising him for not fighting Wills.

The poweres that be were putting him under presure not to fight Wills.

The New York State Athletic Comission said that he had to fight Wills but that he had to find another venue to do it because they didnt want the fallout on their doorstep.

He was probably prety pissed off.

Wills said that he didnt blame Dempsey for the fight not happening. He was a gentlemanand might have been giving Dempsey the benefit of the doubt publ;icaly at least.

Bottom line is, I think that it is a mistake to view this as a black and whgite issue (no pun intended) either way.
It was indeed a tangled web, Dempsey said ,in later life that Rickard was ambiguous about promoting the fight ,and that pressure was brought to bear on him from political quarters fearful of the race riots that accompanied Johnson's win over Jeffries .Muldoon for example publicly said he was for the fight ,but in private was actively blocking it,I remember Fleischer confirming this in the 60's.
Wills picked up a cheque when the fight did not come off,but no doubt he was shafted big time.How true it is I don't know ,but I read that Wills harboured no ill will towards Dempsey,,and photos of them shaking hands when both had retired can be seen .
The truth will probably never be completely revealed.But one fact is certain Wills deserved a shot but did not receive it,I wish he had ,because I think the result would have significantly enhanced Dempsey's reputation

[janitor]

When was Wills under an obligation to fight any of them.

He wasn't but it was a wicked world.

If you were a top black heavyweight contender pre 1945 you basicaly had two options. Either:

A. Establish yourself at the No1 challenger, do the minimum necesary to maintain that status, and hope that sombody did the decent thing.

or

B. Clean out the division, fighting all the top names multiple times if necesary, untill people were more interested in your fights than the champions.

Wills chose option A. The black fighters who broke through the colour bar generaly did it by option B.

If Jack Johnson had been in Wills position he would have fought Grebb, Tunney, Gibbons and Godfrey three times each if necesary. He would have targeted any fighter who Dempsey had fought for the title and tried to do better against them. If he could get Dempseys brother into the ring he would give him a good hiding.

Perhaps ultimately Wills lost the battle but won the war. He was the only black fighter to retire with his fortune intact before the 1950s and he was probably much wealther than Dempsey later in life.

[OLD FOGEY]

He wasn't but it was a wicked world.

If you were a top black heavyweight contender pre 1945 you basicaly had two options. Either:

A. Establish yourself at the No1 challenger, do the minimum necesary to maintain that status, and hope that sombody did the decent thing.

or

B. Clean out the division, fighting all the top names multiple times if necesary, untill people were more interested in your fights than the champions.

Wills chose option A. The black fighters who broke through the colour bar generaly did it by option B.

If Jack Johnson had been in Wills position he would have fought Grebb, Tunney, Gibbons and Godfrey three times each if necesary. He would have targeted any fighter who Dempsey had fought for the title and tried to do better against them. If he could get Dempseys brother into the ring he would give him a good hiding.

Perhaps ultimately Wills lost the battle but won the war. He was the only black fighter to retire with his fortune intact before the 1950s and he was probably much wealther than Dempsey later in life.

You presume that these white fighters were willing to fight Wills. I think the evidence for that is weak.

Wills, and later Godfrey, would have jumped at the big paydays matches with white fighters would have given them. Why in the hell would they want to stay on the "chitlin' circuit" fighting for peanuts. It was his matches with Firpo, Weinert, Johnson, Sharkey, and Uzcudun which gave Wills the nest egg he shrewdly invested to become a wealthy man. I doubt if he made much fighting Langford, McVey, and Norfolk endlessly in minor venues.

Johnson got a shot because the champion was a Canadian fighting in Australia. He never would have gotten a chance in the USA. Times and politics had changed by the time Louis came around. All the rest of the other top black heavyweights, Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Norfolk, Godfrey, and Gains, were frozen out the same as Wills,

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3346386]You presume that these white fighters were willing to fight Wills. I think the evidence for that is weak.


Johnson fouund a few willing to fight him even before he won the title. Sandy Ferguson fought Johnson five times and got shut out each time.

Gambling debts are a bad thing.


Wills, and later Godfrey, would have jumped at the big paydays matches with white fighters would have given them. Why in the hell would they want to stay on the "chitlin' circuit" fighting for peanuts. It was his matches with Firpo, Weinert, Johnson, Sharkey, and Uzcudun which gave Wills the nest egg he shrewdly invested to become a wealthy man. I doubt if he made much fighting Langford, McVey, and Norfolk endlessly in minor venues.


Then he could have made big money fighting Greb, Gibbons or Tunney.

Greb if nobody else would have fought him for the chance to hit sombody.


Johnson got a shot because the champion was a Canadian fighting in Australia. He never would have gotten a chance in the USA. Times and politics had changed by the time Louis came around. All the rest of the other top black heavyweights, Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Norfolk, Godfrey, and Gains, were frozen out the same as Wills,

Johnson got a shot because he was a huge draw and because he was as big as Jeffries had been.

Burns realised he couldnt make any more money fighting comonwealth grade fighters so he went for the big pay day.

[klompton]

Greb had a great deal of respect for Wills and thought he was the best heavyweight in the world. I dont think Greb would have fought him unless he was getting paid a ton of money. Money talked in regards to Greb but I think he was savvy enough to realize that Wills presented some serious obstacles physically and stylistically. He was supremely confident that he would have beaten Dempsey, Im not so sure he felt the same way about Wills.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]


Johnson fouund a few willing to fight him even before he won the title. Sandy Ferguson fought Johnson five times and got shut out each time.

Gambling debts are a bad thing.



Then he could have made big money fighting Greb, Gibbons or Tunney.

Greb if nobody else would have fought him for the chance to hit sombody.




Johnson got a shot because he was a huge draw and because he was as big as Jeffries had been.

Burns realised he couldnt make any more money fighting comonwealth grade fighters so he went for the big pay day.

"Then he could have made big money fighting Greb, Gibbons, or Tunney."

This comment appears to infer that Wills had the opportunity to fight these men and turned down huge paydays. This is nonsense. None of these men were even heavyweights in the early 1920's and none ever fought anyone as big as Harry Wills and there is no evidence that any of them wanted to fight Wills prior to Tunney's posturing in 1926.

My own take--I don't think Wills would have been worried about fighting men 40 to 50 pounds lighter who did not have the punch to hurt him.

On Burns and Johnson--I don't see the point. No white American heavyweight champion prior to Braddock was willing to give a black man a shot at the title. There was simply no strategy for a black man to follow to get a shot. I think if Burns had elected to hide behind the color line as Jeffries did, Johnson would have been out of luck.

Wills may have defeated as many top white fighters as Johnson defeated prior to meeting Burns. Wills defeated Willie Meehan, Gunboat Smith, Fred Fulton, Luis Angel Firpo, Bartley Madden, Charley Weinert, and Floyd Johnson, or all the white fighters who were willing to get into the ring with him.

[mcvey]

Smith was having his last figth against Wills it took place in Havana ,and Smith said he "only went down for the boat ride".Of the others .Dempsey had wrecked Fulton in 1 rd kod Firpo in 2 rds and kosd Smith earlier too,all this was BEFORE they met Wills.I asled the question why didnt Wills meet Gibbons,Tunney, Godfrey,or Greb.no one has come up with a satisfactory answer so far.
Three of Wills biggest scalps are over LHV's Jeff Clark ,and Kid Norfolk,and an aging 5 foot 61/2 inch Langford.

[klompton]

You could also say the same thing about Gibbons and Tunney, their biggest scalps came against LHWs and even middleweight's...

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;3346784]

[QUOTE]
"Then he could have made big money fighting Greb, Gibbons, or Tunney."

This comment appears to infer that Wills had the opportunity to fight these men and turned down huge paydays. This is nonsense. None of these men were even heavyweights in the early 1920's and none ever fought anyone as big as Harry Wills and there is no evidence that any of them wanted to fight Wills prior to Tunney's posturing in 1926.

My own take--I don't think Wills would have been worried about fighting men 40 to 50 pounds lighter who did not have the punch to hurt him.


Harry Greb certainly tried to get a fight with Wills with a view to it being a steping stone for a fight with Dempsey.


On Burns and Johnson--I don't see the point. No white American heavyweight champion prior to Braddock was willing to give a black man a shot at the title. There was simply no strategy for a black man to follow to get a shot. I think if Burns had elected to hide behind the color line as Jeffries did, Johnson would have been out of luck.


Burns avarice was ultimately his undoing.

In the end he was simply offered too much money to refuse. The fact that a promotor was willing to put up $30 000 for Johnson was linked in no small part to the fact that he was a huge draw.

In the end Johnson just became too big a figure to sideline.

Wills may have defeated as many top white fighters as Johnson defeated prior to meeting Burns. Wills defeated Willie Meehan, Gunboat Smith, Fred Fulton, Luis Angel Firpo, Bartley Madden, Charley Weinert, and Floyd Johnson, or all the white fighters who were willing to get into the ring with him.

Johnson basicaly beat every contender who would get in the ring with him as many times as they would get in the ring with him. He fought Sandy Ferguson five times for example.

[janitor]

Greb had a great deal of respect for Wills and thought he was the best heavyweight in the world. I dont think Greb would have fought him unless he was getting paid a ton of money. Money talked in regards to Greb but I think he was savvy enough to realize that Wills presented some serious obstacles physically and stylistically. He was supremely confident that he would have beaten Dempsey, Im not so sure he felt the same way about Wills.

Dosnt your own book detail him calling Wills out?

It is interesting that he thought Wills to be the best heavyweight around.

[OLD FOGEY]

Smith was having his last figth against Wills it took place in Havana ,and Smith said he "only went down for the boat ride".Of the others .Dempsey had wrecked Fulton in 1 rd kod Firpo in 2 rds and kosd Smith earlier too,all this was BEFORE they met Wills.I asled the question why didnt Wills meet Gibbons,Tunney, Godfrey,or Greb.no one has come up with a satisfactory answer so far.
Three of Wills biggest scalps are over LHV's Jeff Clark ,and Kid Norfolk,and an aging 5 foot 61/2 inch Langford.


What answer do you want? The reason he didn't fight these men is that they would not fight him and moreover he wasn't in the same weight class with them. The answer is the same answer as to why Sonny Liston did not fight Gene Fullmer or Jose Torres. Do you really think Wills should have called out the middleweight champion? If a Wills-Greb match were made, it would have to be on the basis that Greb demanded it and plugged for it enough to overcome the "foolish" factor. Wills was 8 inches taller and fifty pounds heavier than Greb. Gibbons was not much larger.

Janitor implied Johnson would have fought all these men several times, etc, to force Dempsey's hand. Well, Tunney NEVER fought a black man. What makes anyone think he would ever have fought Johnson? And why exactly does Dempsey's hand have to be forced?

Really, I think this question is rather foolish--on the order of asking why young black people didn't get good educations at top white colleges or why didn't black baseball players play in the major leagues against Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig to prove themselves? Black people did not draw the color line. White people did.

Men like Norfolk and Clark fought Wills because they could not get that many fights against white fighters of their own size. Whatever his height, Langford by this time was a heavyweight, not a middleweight or small lightheavyweight.

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3351740]
Janitor implied Johnson would have fought all these men several times, etc, to force Dempsey's hand. Well, Tunney NEVER fought a black man. What makes anyone think he would ever have fought Johnson?


I dont think that he would have got Tunney in the ring but he could perhaps have got Greb, Gibbons and Godfrey to fight him, especialy if he was the No1 challenger.


And why exactly does Dempsey's hand have to be forced?


Because its a wicked world.

Because that is basicaly how the first black fighters to fight for titles did it.

They forced the champions hand.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3349699][quote=janitor;3346784]



Harry Greb certainly tried to get a fight with Wills with a view to it being a steping stone for a fight with Dempsey.



Burns avarice was ultimately his undoing.

In the end he was simply offered too much money to refuse. The fact that a promotor was willing to put up $30 000 for Johnson was linked in no small part to the fact that he was a huge draw.

In the end Johnson just became too big a figure to sideline.



Johnson basicaly beat every contender who would get in the ring with him as many times as they would get in the ring with him. He fought Sandy Ferguson five times for example.

Johnson might have been a huge draw in Australia. Was he in the United States? The fact is Dempsey was not willing to leave the United States to defend his title and Burns was and both Burns and Hugh McIntosh might have had different attitudes toward mixed race championship matches than the American champions and promoters did.

"Johnson basically beat every contender who would get in the ring with him as many times as they would get in the ring with him."

So did Wills.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]


I dont think that he would have got Tunney in the ring but he could perhaps have got Greb, Gibbons and Godfrey to fight him, especialy if he was the No1 challenger.



Because its a wicked world.

Because that is basicaly how the first black fighters to fight for titles did it.

They forced the champions hand.

Godfrey clearly would have fought Wills, but Wills was looking by this time (1925 and 1926) for the shot at Dempsey he had earned. I don't think there is much evidence that Greb or Gibbons really wanted to get into the ring with Wills. If they really had, and pumped for it, I think they could have. Why would Wills turn down huge paydays to fight men more than half a foot shorter and forty to fifty pounds lighter, neither of whom had a real knockout punch even at the lighter weights?

I don't think Johnson forced Burns' hand any more than Jackson had forced Sullivan's hand or Johnson himself had earlier forced Jeffries' hand, both times to no avail. Sullivan and Jeffries were Americans who invoked the color line. Burns was a French-Canadian who was willing to go where the money was. Had Burns been champion in 1890 or 1920, Jackson or Wills might have gotten the shot rather than Johnson.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]


I dont think that he would have got Tunney in the ring but he could perhaps have got Greb, Gibbons and Godfrey to fight him, especialy if he was the No1 challenger.



Because its a wicked world.

Because that is basicaly how the first black fighters to fight for titles did it.

They forced the champions hand.

Well, Wills signed a blank contract to fight whomever Rickard chose. Rickard selected Firpo rather than Gibbons. Once Wills signed a blank contract to fight whomever Rickard picked, how anyone can reasonably accuse him of ducking Gibbons is beyond me.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;3351761]

Well, Wills signed a blank contract to fight whomever Rickard chose. Rickard selected Firpo rather than Gibbons. Once Wills signed a blank contract to fight whomever Rickard picked, how anyone can reasonably accuse him of ducking Gibbons is beyond me.

Would Wills have fought Firpo if it had not been on the understanding that it would lead to an imidiate match with Dempsey?

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3351836][quote=janitor;3351761]

Godfrey clearly would have fought Wills, but Wills was looking by this time (1925 and 1926) for the shot at Dempsey he had earned. I don't think there is much evidence that Greb or Gibbons really wanted to get into the ring with Wills. If they really had, and pumped for it, I think they could have. Why would Wills turn down huge paydays to fight men more than half a foot shorter and forty to fifty pounds lighter, neither of whom had a real knockout punch even at the lighter weights?


Verbaly at least Greb called for the fight. Now I know that things can change once you have a contract in front of you but even so.

Greb is the kind of fight er you avoid like the plague if you dont need to fight him because he is virtualy impossible to beat without knocking him out.


I don't think Johnson forced Burns' hand any more than Jackson had forced Sullivan's hand or Johnson himself had earlier forced Jeffries' hand, both times to no avail. Sullivan and Jeffries were Americans who invoked the color line. Burns was a French-Canadian who was willing to go where the money was. Had Burns been champion in 1890 or 1920, Jackson or Wills might have gotten the shot rather than Johnson.


Jeffries was under pressure to fight Johnson not only while he was champion but also after he retired. It was the fight that the fans wanted.

Now Burns might have defended his title against Wills or Jackson in principle but would anybody have put up $30 000?

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3351871]

Would Wills have fought Firpo if it had not been on the understanding that it would lead to an imidiate match with Dempsey?

I don't know and what difference does it make?

Gosh, Dempsey doesn't fight Wills, Greb, Renault, and Godfrey when all are top contenders, while in fact fighting no one at all. Wills signs a blank contract to fight anyone. Rickard selects Firpo. And somehow Wills is being criticized for his motives. Why shouldn't Wills and his manager try to negotiate a title shot?

[klompton]

Dosnt your own book detail him calling Wills out?

It is interesting that he thought Wills to be the best heavyweight around.

I dont think Ive ever written that Greb called out Wills. He may have but (and this is without me checking notes) it was probably more in the line of "Ill fight Wills, Gibbons, Firpo, Brennan, and anyone else in order to face Dempsey." As far as I know he never actively lobbied for a match with Wills and I have more than one direct quote in interviews stating that hes the best heavyweight in the world regardless of color. He basically felt that there were two men in the world who would without a doubt beat Dempsey, Wills and himself. He was smart enough to know that Wills would never get his shot and if the public wanted a white a contender then Greb felt like he was logically it and I have to agree. Until 1925 Greb proved himself without a doubt to be the best man to face Dempsey by virtue of all the top light heavies and heavies he beat and usually very easily.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote]
[quote=OLD FOGEY;3351836]

Verbaly at least Greb called for the fight. Now I know that things can change once you have a contract in front of you but even so.

Greb is the kind of fight er you avoid like the plague if you dont need to fight him because he is virtualy impossible to beat without knocking him out.



Jeffries was under pressure to fight Johnson not only while he was champion but also after he retired. It was the fight that the fans wanted.

Now Burns might have defended his title against Wills or Jackson in principle but would anybody have put up $30 000?

"Greb is the kind of fighter your avoid like the plague"

Well, yes, if you are near his size. Greb beat bigger men, but all of them of any quality were under 200 lbs. I think Renault and Brennan were the best "big" men Greb handled. Wills was several inches taller and fifteen to twenty pounds heavier than Brennan or Renault, and off the record, a much better fighter. If Wills got into the ring with the 1914 Langford, I can't really believe he wouldn't have gotten into the ring with the much smaller Greb.

Burns and $30,000.

How do you know they wouldn't have put up that kind of money for Jackson or Wills? We are really into speculation here.

"Jeffries was under pressure to fight Johnson not only while he was champion but also after he retired."

That didn't matter much to Jeffries. If Burns hadn't given Johnson a shot and lost the "official" title to him, Jeffries would never have fought Johnson.

[janitor]

[quote=OLD FOGEY;3351970]
"Greb is the kind of fighter your avoid like the plague"

Well, yes, if you are near his size. Greb beat bigger men, but all of them of any quality were under 200 lbs. I think Renault and Brennan were the best "big" men Greb handled. Wills was several inches taller and fifteen to twenty pounds heavier than Brennan or Renault, and off the record, a much better fighter. If Wills got into the ring with the 1914 Langford, I can't really believe he wouldn't have gotten into the ring with the much smaller Greb.


Grebs speed did funny things to oponents, even much bigger ones.

Although he would be taking a step up in size and class against Wills it is not out of the question that he befudles him.

Burns and $30,000.


How do you know they wouldn't have put up that kind of money for Jackson or Wills? We are really into speculation here.


I look at the trouble Sam Langford had finding a promotor to put up that sum. The only offers he received that I know of around that mark were from Australia and Russia and came late in Johnsons career.

[mcvey]

I'm sorry you find my question foolish ,in return I find your answer toatally illogical.Wills does not fight Greb and Gibbons because they are in different weight classes to him and they would not fight him. WHAT EVIDENCE HAVE YOU THAT THEY REFUSED TO FIGHT HIM?.Both men fought and beat ranked HEAVYWEIGHTS, why would he not fight them? Wills had no problems fighting a 5 foot 9in Kid Norfolk 6 inches shorter and 36 lbs lighter,so why shouldnt he fight Gibbons or Greb?

[mcvey]

You could also say the same thing about Gibbons and Tunney, their biggest scalps came against LHWs and even middleweight's...

Both beat plenty of heavies.Tunney beat.
Burke
Foley
Spalla
Herman
Renault
Thomkpson
Clifford
Madden
Weinert
Risko.
Tunney nevr weighed much more than Greb when he beat him and only half a pound more than Carpentier when he beat him.
Gibbons beat
Herman
Moore
Bloomfield
Madden
Flynn
Roper
Meehan
and MIske.which I think is a big scalp.
It's funny Dempsey gets castigated for not fightitng Greb ,yet Wills wouldnt fight him because he was too small .:patsch

[OLD FOGEY]

I'm sorry you find my question foolish ,in return I find your answer toatally illogical.Wills does not fight Greb and Gibbons because they are in different weight classes to him and they would not fight him. WHAT EVIDENCE HAVE YOU THAT THEY REFUSED TO FIGHT HIM?.Both men fought and beat ranked HEAVYWEIGHTS, why would he not fight them? Wills had no problems fighting a 5 foot 9in Kid Norfolk 6 inches shorter and 36 lbs lighter,so why shouldnt he fight Gibbons or Greb?

"Why shouldn't he fight Gibbons or Greb?"

You seem to be implying that these fights were not made because Wills did not want them to be made. Can you produce any evidence that either of these men sought a fight with Wills? Without evidence that Gibbons or Greb really were lobbying for a fight with Wills and/or that there was a great public clamour for such a bout, this is just sort of off the wall. Frankly, off the result, Norfolk should never have been allowed into the ring with Wills. He was because it was one of the few good paydays open to either of them.

Other than Miske, who was the best heavyweight Gibbons defeated?

[OLD FOGEY]

Both beat plenty of heavies.Tunney beat.
Burke
Foley
Spalla
Herman
Renault
Thomkpson
Clifford
Madden
Weinert
Risko.
Tunney nevr weighed much more than Greb when he beat him and only half a pound more than Carpentier when he beat him.
Gibbons beat
Herman
Moore
Bloomfield
Madden
Flynn
Roper
Meehan
and MIske.which I think is a big scalp.
It's funny Dempsey gets castigated for not fightitng Greb ,yet Wills wouldnt fight him because he was too small .:patsch

"Wills wouldn't fight him"

Give evidence of this. When was Wills offered a contract to fight Greb? How much of a purse was he offered? Who was talking up this fight? Who was the promoter?

"Miske was a big scalp."

Okay, but he had been beaten by Greb and Norfolk twice each.

And one other question--How many black heavyweights did Tunney, Greb, and Gibbons defeat? Were there any?

One of the most impressive names on Tunney's list would be Jack Renault, but Tunney did not defeat him. The referee stopped the fight and declared it a no contest because the two men were not fighting.

[mcvey]

"Why shouldn't he fight Gibbons or Greb?"

You seem to be implying that these fights were not made because Wills did not want them to be made. Can you produce any evidence that either of these men sought a fight with Wills? Without evidence that Gibbons or Greb really were lobbying for a fight with Wills and/or that there was a great public clamour for such a bout, this is just sort of off the wall. Frankly, off the result, Norfolk should never have been allowed into the ring with Wills. He was because it was one of the few good paydays open to either of them.

Other than Miske, who was the best heavyweight Gibbons defeated?
If you can find any post that I made that says Wills refused to fight any of those named ,please post it .I simply asked what I think is a pertinent question.Wills refused to fight Tunney for the chance at Dempsey ,Paddy Mullins Wills manager gambled that public pressure would force Kearns and Dempsey's hand into giving him a straight shot at the title.Added to the puzzle was the fact that by then Wills was aging and Tunney was then a real threat to anyone.Wills probably did not want to fight Godfrey ,who did want to get him in the ring ,but the financial returns would probably not have made such a risk viable.

[OLD FOGEY]

If you can find any post that I made that says Wills refused to fight any of those named ,please post it .I simply asked what I think is a pertinent question.Wills refused to fight Tunney for the chance at Dempsey ,Paddy Mullins Wills manager gambled that public pressure would force Kearns and Dempsey's hand into giving him a straight shot at the title.Added to the puzzle was the fact that by then Wills was aging and Tunney was then a real threat to anyone.Wills probably did not want to fight Godfrey ,who did want to get him in the ring ,but the financial returns would probably not have made such a risk viable.

You are assuming that Wills would have gotten a shot at Tunney and if he defeated Tunney he would have gotten a shot at Dempsey, and that in fact the Tunney fight was actually on the table. I don't think any of that is true or even plausible. Wills had waited seven years. He knew time was running out and so it was. He wanted Dempsey.

"Mullins gambled that public pressure, etc"

Well, Wills had already fought two eliminations without result. Other than public pressure, what weapon did Wills have. If Wills had fought and beaten Tunney in 1926, Dempsey would probably have defended against SHARKEY in 1927 with the promise that Wills might get a shot at the winner.

[mcvey]

You are assuming that Wills would have gotten a shot at Tunney and if he defeated Tunney he would have gotten a shot at Dempsey, and that in fact the Tunney fight was actually on the table. I don't think any of that is true or even plausible. Wills had waited seven years. He knew time was running out and so it was. He wanted Dempsey.

"Mullins gambled that public pressure, etc"

Well, Wills had already fought two eliminations without result. Other than public pressure, what weapon did Wills have. If Wills had fought and beaten Tunney in 1926, Dempsey would probably have defended against SHARKEY in 1927 with the promise that Wills might get a shot at the winner.
I'm assuming nothing I am stating the case as put by Randy Roberts in his biography of Dempsey.

[mcvey]

It was you that said one of the reasons Wills would not fight Greb was that they were in different weight divisions,I merely quoted you.:huh

[mcvey]

It's funny,I put what I felt was an intruiging question up ,ie .How would things have turned out if Joe Jeannette had beaten Burns instead of Johnson? After about three replies it vanished without trace,Yet an innocuous question like this thread runs to 4 pages,not that I'm not gratified .

[OLD FOGEY]

It was you that said one of the reasons Wills would not fight Greb was that they were in different weight divisions,I merely quoted you.:huh

I never said Wills would not fight Greb and in fact have argued the contrary post after post.

What I did say was that Wills would have looked foolish calling out the middleweight champion and it was up to Greb to lobby for this fight. As far I know and off the other posts. Greb never did.

As for Tunney--after he beat Dempsey and was champion, Wills was still the #1 contender. The fight with Sharkey was three weeks off. Tunney issued this statement:

"Somehow it seems to me that it is not for the best interest of boxing that heavyweights, and champions, in particular, shall clash in mixed matches."

Quoted from TUNNEY by Jack Cavanaugh, page 313.

So the door was closed to Wills once and for all even before he lost to Sharkey.

[mcvey]

I never said Wills would not fight Greb and in fact have argued the contrary post after post.

What I did say was that Wills would have looked foolish calling out the middleweight champion and it was up to Greb to lobby for this fight. As far I know and off the other posts. Greb never did.

As for Tunney--after he beat Dempsey and was champion, Wills was still the #1 contender. The fight with Sharkey was three weeks off. Tunney issued this statement:

"Somehow it seems to me that it is not for the best interest of boxing that heavyweights, and champions, in particular, shall clash in mixed matches."

Quoted from TUNNEY by Jack Cavanaugh, page 313.

So the door was closed to Wills once and for all even before he lost to Sharkey.
Others have said Greb lobbied for the fight I don't know.I was unaware Tunney made that statement,and to be honest would treat it with caution,it is fact that Tunney offered to fight Wills before he met Dempsey. I misinterpreted your remarks concerning the weight differences.

[mcvey]

What is your source for Wills being rated no 1 while Tunney was champ?The Ring Ratings have the following [yearly ratings].

1926 Champ Tunney
1 Dempsey
2 Sharkey
3 Maloney
4Uzcudon
5Wills
6 Renault
7 Persson
8 Hansen
9 Risko
10Montgomery
11 Seifert
12 Demave
13 Munn
14 Dekuh
This is presumably after Sharkey had beaten Wills.
So did Wills drop to number 5 on the basis of he Sharkey defeat?
In passing I note that of those rated Wills met 2, Uzcudon and Sharkey, Sharkey gave him a hiding ,till he fouled out and Uzcudon stopped him.

[OLD FOGEY]

Others have said Greb lobbied for the fight I don't know.I was unaware Tunney made that statement,and to be honest would treat it with caution,it is fact that Tunney offered to fight Wills before he met Dempsey. I misinterpreted your remarks concerning the weight differences.


Tunney actually signed a contract with Rickard to fight Wills--see New York Times 8-12-1925--However, this came while Wills was negotiating with Dempsey for a fight for Floyd Fitzsimmons. I can't really see Wills breaking off negotiations with Dempsey to suddenly fight Tunney. Wills and Dempsey in fact did sign for a fight in October, which eventually fell through when the cheque given to Dempsey bounced.

In 1926 with Dempsey signed to defend, Rickard could apparently have picked Wills but instead decided to match Dempsey with Tunney. I read James P Dawson on this brouhaha in an April, 1926 Times article and he felt the Dempsey-Wills fight would have been the bigger moneymaker. The New York Commission demanded that Wills get the shot, so Rickard went out of state.

Paddy Mullins said in the 1925 article that Wills was willing to fight Tunney if there was a signed contract that he would get Dempsey if he won. If there no such contract, he did not want to negotiate a Tunney fight. This does sound reasonable to me.

On Tunney--the 1925 and 1926 negotiations are so Byzantine, who knows how many escape hatches there were. Tunney apparently was under contract to the Polo Grounds who might have skuttled any Wills-Tunney fight if it were signed. The value of Tunney's 1926 remark is that it comes when he was in the driver's seat and seems to indicate that he was not much interested in fighting Wills if it wasn't absolutely necessary. There is at least the chance that the 1925 negotiations were a charade.

[OLD FOGEY]

What is your source for Wills being rated no 1 while Tunney was champ?The Ring Ratings have the following [yearly ratings].

1926 Champ Tunney
1 Dempsey
2 Sharkey
3 Maloney
4Uzcudon
5Wills
6 Renault
7 Persson
8 Hansen
9 Risko
10Montgomery
11 Seifert
12 Demave
13 Munn
14 Dekuh
This is presumably after Sharkey had beaten Wills.
So did Wills drop to number 5 on the basis of he Sharkey defeat?
In passing I note that of those rated Wills met 2, Uzcudon and Sharkey, Sharkey gave him a hiding ,till he fouled out and Uzcudon stopped him.

There was three weeks between Tunney assuming the championship by beating Dempsey and Wills falling to Sharkey. Wills was still the man considered #1 from 1925, although Dempsey would also now be in the mix. Tunney issued his no mixed matches statement before Wills was beaten and dropped in the ratings. In other words, as I judge it, Wills would have been out of luck even if he had defeated Sharkey, if one takes Tunney at his word.

[mcvey]

Tunney actually signed a contract with Rickard to fight Wills--see New York Times 8-12-1925--However, this came while Wills was negotiating with Dempsey for a fight for Floyd Fitzsimmons. I can't really see Wills breaking off negotiations with Dempsey to suddenly fight Tunney. Wills and Dempsey in fact did sign for a fight in October, which eventually fell through when the cheque given to Dempsey bounced.

In 1926 with Dempsey signed to defend, Rickard could apparently have picked Wills but instead decided to match Dempsey with Tunney. I read James P Dawson on this brouhaha in an April, 1926 Times article and he felt the Dempsey-Wills fight would have been the bigger moneymaker. The New York Commission demanded that Wills get the shot, so Rickard went out of state.



Paddy Mullins said in the 1925 article that Wills was willing to fight Tunney if there was a signed contract that he would get Dempsey if he won. If there no such contract, he did not want to negotiate a Tunney fight. This does sound reasonable to me.

On Tunney--the 1925 and 1926 negotiations are so Byzantine, who knows how many escape hatches there were. Tunney apparently was under contract to the Polo Grounds who might have skuttled any Wills-Tunney fight if it were signed. The value of Tunney's 1926 remark is that it comes when he was in the driver's seat and seems to indicate that he was not much interested in fighting Wills if it wasn't absolutely necessary. There is at least the chance that the 1925 negotiations were a charade.

I don't in the least blame Wills for not fighting Tunney he had allready earned his chance ,but as Tunney was willing to fight Wills ,I would not take on trust remarks purported to him that he wanted in effect to draw the colour line later. Roberts book on Dempsey goes into some detail about the machinations surrounding the Wills Dempsey non fight, trying to unravel the plot.

[OLD FOGEY]

I don't in the least blame Wills for not fighting Tunney he had allready earned his chance ,but as Tunney was willing to fight Wills ,I would not take on trust remarks purported to him that he wanted in effect to draw the colour line later. Roberts book on Dempsey goes into some detail about the machinations surrounding the Wills Dempsey non fight, trying to unravel the plot.

It isn't the first color line quotes I have seen from Tunney. If I remember correctly, I read something like this in TIME MAGAZINE from 1926. Cavanaugh's book is not well footnoted and I have no idea where he got this quote, but he is a respected journalist and the book was generally scored for being too pro-Tunney.

My take is that it is really not fair to criticize Wills. Look at his position. He is negotiating with Dempsey and Fitzsimmons for a title shot. Rickard announces behind his back that he has signed Tunney to fight him. Remember, Wills has never been part of this negotiation. When Wills signs with Dempsey, Rickard announces to the press that he, Rickard, has Dempsey under exclusive contract and this fight can not come off unless he promotes it. Is Dempsey aware of what sort of contract Kearns had previously signed? In 1926 Rickard ignores Wills and matches Dempsey and Tunney. When Tunney wins, Gene puts out a statement that he is against mixed matches and Wills is out in the cold.

Was Dempsey a free agent when he was negotiating with Wills? What had Kearns done behind his back and to extent did Dempsey or his lawyer even know about it? I just don't know and I don't think Wills did either. The whole negotiation between Dempsey and Wills might well have been a charade with Dempsey, Fitzsimmons, and Wills being completely ignorant of the actual legal situation concerning Rickard.