Julio Cesar Chavez vs Pipino Cuevas.

[Shake]

Not a match-up that immediately comes to mind, but I saw two consecutive posters give this one to Chavez without a second thought. I'm asbig as a Chavez fan there is, but in my mind, Cuevas is just a little too big and strong for Julio.

[red cobra]

I agree that Cuevas hit too hard for Chavez, and this is interesting, as Roberto Duran rather easily withstood all that Cuevas had en route to knocking him out i4.

[Russell]

Did Duran really just take everything Cuevas could throw at him...?

[Titan1]

Cuevas with the coldcock in two.

[Tommy Hearns]

Cuevas would never beat a fighter like Hearns; his bread and butter were those whipping, concussive hooks at mid range, and Tommy’s long arms and speed would never allow him to reach his target. Cuevas was a one dimensional and methodical fighter, but give him a smaller man without the guns to keep him at bay, and Pipino would have a field day.

[brooklyn1550]

Cuevas by KO

[Executioner]

Chavez is too small and he doesn't have the power to give Cuevas something to think about. Cuevas rips him apart.

[apollack]

Cuevas doesn't have the chin and defense and Chavez does. Duran proved that a guy with some subtle headmovement and who knows how to work the body and head can easily KO Cuevas. Chavez perhaps takes longer than Duran, but in the end gets him.

[divac]

Cuevas doesn't have the chin and defense and Chavez does. Duran proved that a guy with some subtle headmovement and who knows how to work the body and head can easily KO Cuevas. Chavez perhaps takes longer than Duran, but in the end gets him.

Its as simple as that. Cuevas was an assasin, but he was a one dimensional assasin that would be very easy for an elite multifaceted great like Chavez to figure out.

The same Chavez who drew with Pernell Whitaker at Welter would have easily and systematically have broken down Pipino in route to a late stoppage.

Pipino had more punching power yes, but so did alot of fighters that Chavez faced and defeated.....fighters like Rosario and Mayweather.

.....anybody who picks Cuevas in this fight is severely underestimating Chavez' defensive and boxing qualities.
Because Chavez was such a good swarmer, his other great qualities are ignored by many.

Straight out, nobody at 147 lbs or below with the one dimensional skills of a fighter like Cuevas comes even close to defeating JC Chavez.
I dont care how hard he hits.....you have to bring more than just a powerpunching game to defeat a great multifaceted fighter like JC Chavez.

[sweet_scientist]

To me this is answered with a simple question:

Does Cuevas have the power to knock out Chavez? I say no.

The rest is academic. Chavez UD.

[Holmes' Jab]

To me this is answered with a simple question:

Does Cuevas have the power to knock out Chavez? I say no.

The rest is academic. Chavez UD.

I agree. :good

[young griffo]

Yep Chavez ruins the powerful but crude Cuevas via KO between 7-10.

[JohnThomas1]

I'll go the contrary, Chavez wouldn't have the guns to deter Cuevas, who actually had a great chin. Cuevas is far far bigger and was absolutely pole axing decent chinned fully fledged welters. Chavez's great infighting, vaunted body attack and strength at lighter weights isn't going to save him here. Chavez is also no Duran, he's going to be there for Cuevas often enough for us to find out if he can take the second biggest or perhaps even biggest hitter's power in 147 history. I say no chance.

[Vockerman]

To me this is answered with a simple question:

Does Cuevas have the power to knock out Chavez? I say no.

The rest is academic. Chavez UD.

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with the esteemed Scientist.
Having read his posts for some time with great enthusiasm I do not disagree with him lightly...

I DO agree with the majority of posters that Cuevas was one dimensional and did not have Chavez level of skill, however if you base your argument on Cuevas power alone I believe you have to go the other way.

Cuevas is one of the most powerful left hookers ever in the welterweight division. He had a long string of KO title defenses of the welterweight crown and his chin was pretty good until Hearns ruined it... After Hearns he lost nearly half his fights by KO.

Logically If Cuevas lacks the power to KO Chavez so does almost every welterweight who ever lived. I don't believe that argument will hold up because what De La Hoya and Tszyu could do it at 140 (against an admittedly faded Chavez) have no doubt in terms of power what Cuevas could do at 147.

The argument about whether Ceuvas could land it clean before he was worn down by the pressure and ferocity of Chavez attack is an entirely different matter - and in fact where I would place my money.

IF the argument is power - and only power - my advice is go with Pipino -

[apollack]

Look it, the Tszyu and ODH fights are absolutley meaningless. Chavez was very old and very shot, big time. He was totally out of shape, reflexes gone, defensive head movement gone, even his punches were slow as molasses and his flowing combos all gone. We are talking a guy who had turned pro in the early 80s. Don't use fights two decades later to judge his chin. A prime Chavez would not only have taken what Cuevas had to offer, he would have made Cuevas miss most everything he threw and would have hit Pipino a LOT.

[JohnThomas1]

The argument about whether Ceuvas could land it clean before he was worn down by the pressure and ferocity of Chavez attack is an entirely different matter - and in fact where I would place my money.


Personally i don't see a very very beefed up past peak Chavez overly bothering the superb chinned (you basically stated this yourself, pre Hearn's) fully fledged 147 pounder that is Cuevas. He took a few massive Hearn's right hands before folding, Chavez at 147 was never going to put this sort of chin check out there. His stamina was good and he wasn't going to be worn down by the lighter man, and he could also take his man out late in the contest.

[JohnThomas1]

Look it, the Tszyu and ODH fights are absolutley meaningless. Chavez was very old and very shot, big time. He was totally out of shape, reflexes gone, defensive head movement gone, even his punches were slow as molasses and his flowing combos all gone. We are talking a guy who had turned pro in the early 80s. Don't use fights two decades later to judge his chin. A prime Chavez would not only have taken what Cuevas had to offer, he would have made Cuevas miss most everything he threw and would have hit Pipino a LOT.

You would describe Chavez at 147 as prime????

Another thing, Chavez weighed just 142 vs Whitaker, even beefed up he can't make a genuine 147 and/or just plain knows he can't carry it.

[sweet_scientist]

I'll go the contrary, Chavez wouldn't have the guns to deter Cuevas, who actually had a great chin. Cuevas is far far bigger and was absolutely pole axing decent chinned fully fledged welters. Chavez's great infighting, vaunted body attack and strength at lighter weights isn't going to save him here. Chavez is also no Duran, he's going to be there for Cuevas often enough for us to find out if he can take the second biggest or perhaps even biggest hitter's power in 147 history. I say no chance.

Cuevas never stopped anyone with anything close to a Chavez level beard though.

And even looking at some of his most impressive victims, Clyde Gray had been stopped in his previous fight, Backus was done and dusted and Ranzany had already been stopped by an aging Muniz a year before.

Big as Cuevas would be compared to Chavez, I can't picture him stopping him. Chavez in his prime was never rocked, let alone hurt, let alone stopped, and he faced quite a few big hitters to test his chin. He had chin to spare on the guys he faced, and though he'd need it against Cuevas, I don't think Cuevas will crack it.

[JohnThomas1]

Cuevas never stopped anyone with anything close to a Chavez level beard though.

And even looking at some of his most impressive victims, Clyde Gray had been stopped in his previous fight, Backus was done and dusted and Ranzany had already been stopped by an aging Muniz a year before.

Big as Cuevas would be compared to Chavez, I can't picture him stopping him. Chavez in his prime was never rocked, let alone hurt, let alone stopped, and he faced quite a few big hitters to test his chin. He had chin to spare on the guys he faced, and though he'd need it against Cuevas, I don't think Cuevas will crack it.

There'in lies our difference, i think Cuevas would crack it. The guys he stopped, he often didn't just stop them he broke bones and fractured eye sockets. Tho Cuevas lies below Hearn's class wise i see this akin to Hearn's - Duran with it's shocking surprise element. Massive punching big man stuns the much smaller great chin. Rosario IMO was the hardest puncher Chavez fought but he smothered him right out of his punching range. I thought Rosario stunned him for a split second at one stage in a Hagler - Hearns-esque moment, maybe a bit less noticable tho. I don't think Chavez could smother the stronger larger Pipino out of his punching range, and even so he can hammer damn hard in close and is more comfy there than Edwin. Just can't see the man wilting. I think this is one division too many for Chavez and his great effect.

[apollack]

Cuevas turned pro in 1971 and by 1976 already had 6 losses, one by KO (albeit his pro debut). But he was young. Still, coming off a LOSS to Andy Price, he got a title shot in his next fight (welcome to boxing) against Angel Espada, who had won the vacant WBA title. Cuevas had a string of good wins from 76 – 80, but not against anyone special, certainly not against a guy like Chavez. Then at age 22, in 1980 Cuevas gets stopped in 2 rounds by Hearns. In 1983 when Cuevas was 25 years old, Duran, a former lightweight, stops this killer puncher in 4 rounds. In 1985, 27 year old Cuevas gets stopped in 3 rounds by Herman Montes. In 1986, Jorge Vaca stops Cuevas in 2 rounds. Look, I don’t give any fighter in his 20s an excuse. Once they hit 30, fine, but if you are getting stopped multiple times in your 20s, you are not the type of fighter who is going to last with Chavez, certainly not the Chavez who in his 20s was never once dropped.

[Mantequilla]

Cuevas was done after the Hearns destruction.

Certainly after the Duran loss, he was completely finished.

[JohnThomas1]

edit

[JohnThomas1]

Cuevas turned pro in 1971 and by 1976 already had 6 losses, one by KO (albeit his pro debut). But he was young. Still, coming off a LOSS to Andy Price, he got a title shot in his next fight (welcome to boxing) against Angel Espada, who had won the vacant WBA title. Cuevas had a string of good wins from 76 – 80, but not against anyone special, certainly not against a guy like Chavez. Then at age 22, in 1980 Cuevas gets stopped in 2 rounds by Hearns. In 1983 when Cuevas was 25 years old, Duran, a former lightweight, stops this killer puncher in 4 rounds. In 1985, 27 year old Cuevas gets stopped in 3 rounds by Herman Montes. In 1986, Jorge Vaca stops Cuevas in 2 rounds. Look, I don’t give any fighter in his 20s an excuse. Once they hit 30, fine, but if you are getting stopped multiple times in your 20s, you are not the type of fighter who is going to last with Chavez, certainly not the Chavez who in his 20s was never once dropped.

I think you're being a bit harsh, and setting age limits on fighters percieved effective ages is far too vague to work. Pipino started at 14. Many would agree Hearn's ruined Cuevas. The KO in his pro debut would not compare IMO. Thomas stripped him of his peak period aura in emphatic fashion. A devastating KO. He hadn't fought for more than a year before Duran and had fought twice in over two years pre Montes. He was shit post Hearns and it was easy to see. He actually fought half decent vs Duran but never looked like winning. I believe Duran beats him at his best. I also believe cuties like Stafford (not sure whether Stafford would beat him pre Hearns tho, nothing special was Roger) and likely Starling were going to be his achilles heel. Chavez isn't a cutie like Stafford tho, not even close, and never carried the weight as well as Duran who was fantastic at 147. I just can't see a come forward much smaller fighter who didn't carry 147 convincingly beating Pipino.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with the esteemed Scientist.
Having read his posts for some time with great enthusiasm I do not disagree with him lightly...

Vockerman, thanks for the endorsement mate :good

I DO agree with the majority of posters that Cuevas was one dimensional and did not have Chavez level of skill, however if you base your argument on Cuevas power alone I believe you have to go the other way.

Cuevas is one of the most powerful left hookers ever in the welterweight division. He had a long string of KO title defenses of the welterweight crown and his chin was pretty good until Hearns ruined it... After Hearns he lost nearly half his fights by KO.

Logically If Cuevas lacks the power to KO Chavez so does almost every welterweight who ever lived. I don't believe that argument will hold up because what De La Hoya and Tszyu could do it at 140 (against an admittedly faded Chavez) have no doubt in terms of power what Cuevas could do at 147.

Apollack has already noted how Chavez was pretty much done when DLH and Tszyu got to him, and I think he's right to say that those fights can't be used to guage Chavez's chin. But I want to point out another thing: who exactly did Cuevas stop to garner the reputation as one of if not THE premier hitter at 147? Are the guys he clobbered a good enough calibre to really earn him that distinction? Yes, he did BRUTALIZE the guys he stopped, but still, I'm just not that impressed with who he stopped, especially considering at what stage he stopped some of the guys he stopped. I would want a little more proof against some at least near elite fighters before I'd say he was a powermonger. We never saw him crush panyone that was near that.


The argument about whether Ceuvas could land it clean before he was worn down by the pressure and ferocity of Chavez attack is an entirely different matter - and in fact where I would place my money.

IF the argument is power - and only power - my advice is go with Pipino -

Chavez could outbox him without wearing him down similar to say how he outboxed Rocky Lockridge when he hurt his hand. He wouldn't need to wear Cuevas down. Even if he did engage in trench warfare, I'd still favour Chavez to win, but I don't think he has the power to stop a prime Pipino and he'd have to take some massive shots to do it.

[Vockerman]

Personally I don't see a very very beefed up past peak Chavez overly bothering the superb chinned (you basically stated this yourself, pre Hearn's) fully fledged 147 pounder that is Cuevas. He took a few massive Hearn's right hands before folding, Chavez at 147 was never going to put this sort of chin check out there. His stamina was good and he wasn't going to be worn down by the lighter man, and he could also take his man out late in the contest.

Yes sir, that is indeed a different view and I admit at the outset you could be correct. I don't see pre-Hearns Ceuvas being stopped by Chavez if that is what you mean, sir.

About the outcome of this theoretical fight my opinion is based on the notion that in 1979 against Randy Shields (a solid but not spectacular contender) Cuevas went the distance in a title fight against a man weighing only 142. Cuevas won a comfortable UD but Shields did come to fight...

I think that this is a near peak Cuevas, perhaps not his very best night - but in the ballpark.

Would a prime Chavez be better at 140 than the Shields at 142 who fought Cuevas that night?

Almost certainly.

Enough better to take a decision. I don't know...
I think perhaps so.

You seem to strongly believe that Cuevas takes this easily and I have great respect for your analysis and opinions. I believe I see some of your reasoning - If you have more opinions on this I really would like to hear more.

I'm old and can be a little slow to change my mind :!:
But I hope I'm still able to see reason and learn something :happy

[apollack]

Great points sweet scientist. Lets go with that. Here's who Cuevas fought in title fights prior to losing to Hearns and allegedly becoming a shot fighter at age 22. (sure cuevas turned pro at 14, but guys like chavez turned pro young too, and you don't see him getting KO'd four times in his 20s).

Espada – 7 losses prior to Cuevas.
Tsujimoto - 2 losses, one by KO prior to Cuevas, fought nobodies
Campanino – only 2 losses, but didn’t defeat a world contender
Clyde Gray – boxer, not a puncher, and had 5 losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, including a KO loss in his very last fight before “earning” his title shot.
Angel Espada (rematch) – Angel hadn’t beaten anyone that would legitimize his rematch, but this time he lasted 12 with Cuevas before getting stopped again.
Harold Weston – Had six losses and five draws coming in. A good boxer who had fought a lot of good fighters, but certainly not a puncher by any means.
Billy Backus – Had 19 losses coming into the fight, including 4 by KO, and a draw in his last fight prior to getting the title shot. Oh, and Backus fought Cuevas in 1978 – Billy turned pro in 1961.
Pete Ranzany – Had two losses, one by KO to Muniz the year before fighting Cuevas.
Clark – Only one loss, but it’s really sad because it was to a guy 5-6 and Clark fought utter and complete shit, had no argument for a title fight other than a fake record.
Randy Shields – boxer, not a puncher, had five losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, both KO losses coming the year before fighting Cuevas.
Espada (for the third time – I guess getting stopped twice earns you a rubber match) – hadn’t beaten anyone legit in the interim, manages to last 10 this time.
Volbrecht – 2 losses prior to Cuevas, one by KO, fought mostly nobodies.

[sweet_scientist]

There'in lies our difference, i think Cuevas would crack it. The guys he stopped, he often didn't just stop them he broke bones and fractured eye sockets. Tho Cuevas lies below Hearn's class wise i see this akin to Hearn's - Duran with it's shocking surprise element. Massive punching big man stuns the much smaller great chin. Rosario IMO was the hardest puncher Chavez fought but he smothered him right out of his punching range. I thought Rosario stunned him for a split second at one stage in a Hagler - Hearns-esque moment, maybe a bit less noticable tho. I don't think Chavez could smother the stronger larger Pipino out of his punching range, and even so he can hammer damn hard in close and is more comfy there than Edwin. Just can't see the man wilting. I think this is one division too many for Chavez and his great effect.

Re the Hearns-Duran analogy, I think Hearns was more powerful and of course more quick and skillful than Cuevas and I think Chavez had an even better chin than what Duran did. I'm not saying Chavez withstands that bomb Hearns threw, but I will say that 147, (weighting 142) he could take Cuevas' punch.

[sweet_scientist]

Great points sweet scientist. Lets go with that. Here's who Cuevas fought in title fights prior to losing to Hearns and allegedly becoming a shot fighter at age 22. (sure cuevas turned pro at 14, but guys like chavez turned pro young too, and you don't see him getting KO'd four times in his 20s).

Espada – 7 losses prior to Cuevas.
Tsujimoto - 2 losses, one by KO prior to Cuevas, fought nobodies
Campanino – only 2 losses, but didn’t defeat a world contender
Clyde Gray – boxer, not a puncher, and had 5 losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, including a KO loss in his very last fight before “earning” his title shot.
Angel Espada (rematch) – Angel hadn’t beaten anyone that would legitimize his rematch, but this time he lasted 12 with Cuevas before getting stopped again.
Harold Weston – Had six losses and five draws coming in. A good boxer who had fought a lot of good fighters, but certainly not a puncher by any means.
Billy Backus – Had 19 losses coming into the fight, including 4 by KO, and a draw in his last fight prior to getting the title shot. Oh, and Backus fought Cuevas in 1978 – Billy turned pro in 1961.
Pete Ranzany – Had two losses, one by KO to Muniz the year before fighting Cuevas.
Clark – Only one loss, but it’s really sad because it was to a guy 5-6 and Clark fought utter and complete shit, had no argument for a title fight other than a fake record.
Randy Shields – boxer, not a puncher, had five losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, both KO losses coming the year before fighting Cuevas.
Espada (for the third time – I guess getting stopped twice earns you a rubber match) – hadn’t beaten anyone legit in the interim, manages to last 10 this time.
Volbrecht – 2 losses prior to Cuevas, one by KO, fought mostly nobodies.

Yeah, hardly the most compelling list to base a case off there.

Look no doubting Pipino could hit, he was a VERY powerful hitter and he damaged some guys well and proper, but i'm not going to call him the biggest hitter in the division off of that list. It's too inconclusive. It'd be like calling Miguel Cotto the biggest hitter at 140 becuase he stopped Bazan, Sosa, Corley, Maussa, Abdulaev and Bailey.

[Mantequilla]

Chavez never fought anyone that would give an indication of how good his chin was at 147.

He may very well get brutally wrecked by someone like Mark Breland at this weight.

Chavez was not the kind of man to dig deep when the chips were down at a weight where he's really quite far past his prime.

I see him punking out after an accidental clash of heads around the 8th.

[JohnThomas1]

Great points sweet scientist. Lets go with that. Here's who Cuevas fought in title fights prior to losing to Hearns and allegedly becoming a shot fighter at age 22. (sure cuevas turned pro at 14, but guys like chavez turned pro young too, and you don't see him getting KO'd four times in his 20s).

Espada – 7 losses prior to Cuevas.


Regardless he wasn't beaten in between 1975 to 1979 excepting only by Cuevas in their 3 bouts. He beat the respecable Clyde Gray in this period.

Clyde Gray – boxer, not a puncher, and had 5 losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, including a KO loss in his very last fight before “earning” his title shot.

Had won 18 of his previous 20. Also won the next 7 after Pipino.

Harold Weston – Had six losses and five draws coming in. A good boxer who had fought a lot of good fighters, but certainly not a puncher by any means. A big point, had never been stopped, pre Cuevas despite facing so many top calibre fighters.

Neither was Chavez at 147. Weston had drew Benitez, beaten Andy "The Hawk" Price, drew Saoul Mamby and tko'ed Vito Antuofermo pre Cuevas, not so bad?

Billy Backus – Had 19 losses coming into the fight, including 4 by KO, and a draw in his last fight prior to getting the title shot. Oh, and Backus fought Cuevas in 1978 – Billy turned pro in 1961.

Hadn't lost in 11 fights pre Pipino and at one stage had a TKO win over some guy called Jose Napoles for the unified world welterweight title.

Pete Ranzany – Had two losses, one by KO to Muniz the year before fighting Cuevas.

Was 40-2-1 at the time of fighting with some quite reasonable results.

Clark – Only one loss, but it’s really sad because it was to a guy 5-6 and Clark fought utter and complete shit, had no argument for a title fight other than a fake record.

Don't forget to also tell us it occurred in just his 5th pro fight and he was unbeaten in his next 24 which were mostly early KO's.

Randy Shields – boxer, not a puncher, had five losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, both KO losses coming the year before fighting Cuevas.

Ko's to Ranzany and a guy called Benitez, also gave SRL a fine fight the year before fighting Cuevas. A solid fighter who fought the best of his era, if you beat him you were a real world class fighter.

Not so bad when opened up and balanced out. Certainly no-where near as bad as you try to spin it.

[JohnThomas1]

Chavez never fought anyone that would give an indication of how good his chin was at 147.

He may very well get brutally wrecked by someone like Mark Breland at this weight.

Chavez was not the kind of man to dig deep when the chips were down at a weight where he's really quite far past his prime.

I see him punking out after an accidental clash of heads around the 8th.

:happy

[Vockerman]

Great points sweet scientist. Lets go with that. Here's who Cuevas fought in title fights prior to losing to Hearns and allegedly becoming a shot fighter at age 22. (sure cuevas turned pro at 14, but guys like chavez turned pro young too, and you don't see him getting KO'd four times in his 20s).

Espada – 7 losses prior to Cuevas.
Tsujimoto - 2 losses, one by KO prior to Cuevas, fought nobodies
Campanino – only 2 losses, but didn’t defeat a world contender
Clyde Gray – boxer, not a puncher, and had 5 losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, including a KO loss in his very last fight before “earning” his title shot.
Angel Espada (rematch) – Angel hadn’t beaten anyone that would legitimize his rematch, but this time he lasted 12 with Cuevas before getting stopped again.
Harold Weston – Had six losses and five draws coming in. A good boxer who had fought a lot of good fighters, but certainly not a puncher by any means.
Billy Backus – Had 19 losses coming into the fight, including 4 by KO, and a draw in his last fight prior to getting the title shot. Oh, and Backus fought Cuevas in 1978 – Billy turned pro in 1961.
Pete Ranzany – Had two losses, one by KO to Muniz the year before fighting Cuevas.
Clark – Only one loss, but it’s really sad because it was to a guy 5-6 and Clark fought utter and complete shit, had no argument for a title fight other than a fake record.
Randy Shields – boxer, not a puncher, had five losses coming into Cuevas fight, 2 by KO, both KO losses coming the year before fighting Cuevas.
Espada (for the third time – I guess getting stopped twice earns you a rubber match) – hadn’t beaten anyone legit in the interim, manages to last 10 this time.
Volbrecht – 2 losses prior to Cuevas, one by KO, fought mostly nobodies.

I am quite pleased that, so far at least, we have all been able to disagree without becoming disagreable.

Chavez is the more modern fighter and Cuevas the older. Time seems to dim the accomplishments of some and add luster to others, I sure don't know why that is but I'm not the only one who rates Pipino highly despite his journeyman like record...

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Ring Magazine's 100 greatest P4P punchers
31. Pipino Cuevas

It is my hope we are giving both of these great fighters the respect I believe they both have earned...

I have said I like Chavez by close decision - but I am not very confident in that. I hope I'm not underestimating Cuevas and I'll freely admit if Cuevas hits cleanly with that hook it could be a very different fight indeed.

I am enjoying this thread and have to say that this is a fight I would pay to see when we get the time machine working!

[Minotauro]

I think Chavez would win a decision, Cuevas hit hard but Chavez's chin is legandary I see him outworking and outlanding Cuevas to a UD.

[Street Lethal]

Cuevas doesn't have the chin and defense and Chavez does. Duran proved that a guy with some subtle headmovement and who knows how to work the body and head can easily KO Cuevas. Chavez perhaps takes longer than Duran, but in the end gets him.

This is right.

[divac]

:happy

For you to clap at Mantequilla's post just goes to show your hatred bias against Chavez, and really throws all your arguments in this thread out the window!:deal

[divac]

I would liken the scenario of this fight to go much like the Holyfield-Tyson fights.

Power alone does'nt win fights. For most, if you're in the classic section posting on a topic like this, you guys should more than know this.

Mike Tyson cracked much harder than did Evander Holyfield. In fact, the power disparity imo was much wider with Holyfield-Tyson than it would have been for Chavez-Cuevas.

Holyfield was able to neutralize Tyson by giving him subtle movements, coming inside at angles, and getting out and away with angles.
You dont step out in a straight line when you're up against a big puncher.....and these are things that Chavez knew and always did.

When you look at Chavez' fight with Rosario, he's never locking heads with Rosario straight up. You could always see that Chavez was a half step to a step to Rosario's side......and Rosario was always looking to straighten up and meet Chavez straight on to lock horns....but Chavez never gave him that chance.

I dont believe Cuevas even had a clue about the artistery of angling in and turning an opponent.....Chavez was really to put it mildly a master at it, and it was the reason that he was able to render much stronger and harder punching opponents than he was, helpless.

Again, Chavez much greater nuances in an infighting game with Pipino are being ignored.
It's the reason that Duran was able to dispose of Cuevas so easily.
Cuevas was really just clueless in there vs Duran, and nothing would be much different with Chavez, except that it would take Chavez just a little longer to put a halt to a fight that imo would be a complete mismatch.

Again, a one dimensional slugger at 147 lbs or below is not going to even come close to beating a great fighter like JC Chavez, of that in my mind I am absolutely sure of!

[Shake]

For me, this isn't about punching power. It's about natural weight. Of course Pipino isn't as great a fighter as Chavez was, and it isn't even close.

But even Duran elected to fight Cuevas mostly from the outside after the first round, in which Pipino hit him with a few cracking body shots. Duran kept a poker face, but I could see he wasn't going to stay in there with him.

Chavez, on the other hand, didn't have many other options. He would have to go toe-to-toe, and I feel Cuevas would hit him hard enough to stop him. I'm aware of Chavez's chin, but I'm also aware of weight, and for a stalker that started at featherweight a natural 147-pounder with the punch of Cuevas is too much, which is no shame at all.

The Holyfield-Tyson comparison, by the way, is a bit silly.

I'm intrigued, though. How do you see Chavez winning a decision? By trading inside? Does he come forward or does Cuevas? Does he circle Pipino as he did with Oscar?

[divac]

For me, this isn't about punching power. It's about natural weight. Of course Pipino isn't as great a fighter as Chavez was, and it isn't even close.

But even Duran elected to fight Cuevas mostly from the outside after the first round, in which Pipino hit him with a few cracking body shots. Duran kept a poker face, but I could see he wasn't going to stay in there with him.

Chavez, on the other hand, didn't have many other options. He would have to go toe-to-toe, and I feel Cuevas would hit him hard enough to stop him. I'm aware of Chavez's chin, but I'm also aware of weight, and for a stalker that started at featherweight a natural 147-pounder with the punch of Cuevas is too much, which is no shame at all.

The Holyfield-Tyson comparison, by the way, is a bit silly.

I'm intrigued, though. How do you see Chavez winning a decision? By trading inside? Does he come forward or does Cuevas? Does he circle Pipino as he did with Oscar?

Cuevas would come foward in the early rounds, with Chavez staying at mid to long distance, jabbing and shooting his patented straight right over a missing Pipino hook.

Chavez would more than likely circle to Pipino's right away from his hook, but at the moment that Pipino would unleach and miss with the hook, Chavez would counter it with a straight right, and follow it up with a hook downstairs of his own.

Not a whole lot of thunder in the early rounds....but a fighter as good as Chavez is so keen at observing and finding weak spots that he'd have Pipino figured out within a few rounds......
.....and really, with a fighter like Pipino, its easy pickings for a fighter like Chavez. There is'nt much adjustments for a fighter like Chavez to make with the type of skill level that Pipino brings to the table.
.....the same combinations that would land early for Chavez, would just be perfected and just ooze out with more frequency, potency, and regularity as the fight moved on.


Scientist already mentioned Chavez fight with Lockridge as a good barometer of his skillset fighting with an injured hand.
I get a strong feeling around these parts that alot of you imagine Chavez to be the same type fighter that Pipino Cuevas was.
I could see someone who would have that mindset coming to the conclusion that Cuevas would beat Chavez.
......but that is so far out there from the truth.

I dont see Pipino making many if any adjustments throughout the fight, Chavez would'nt have too, but could make them at the drop of a hat.

Chavez turns it up late on a frustrated and fatigueing Cuevas and stops him late!


Btw, for those that dont know, but Chavez and Cuevas are very good friends.....
....Cuevas was falsely accused of something and was in put in jail for a few weeks......
During Chavez preparation for Greg Haugen at Azteca Stadium, he found the time to go visit his friend Cuevas in jail, and petitioned and made a call to the president of Mexico on behalf of his friend Pipino Cuevas.
Does'nt have to do anything with this thread, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit to add to the thread.

[JohnThomas1]

For you to clap at Mantequilla's post just goes to show your hatred bias against Chavez, and really throws all your arguments in this thread out the window!:deal

What a terrible shame i'm actually a fine fan of Chavez. I commonly name him one of the two greatest 140's head to head and think he'd beat Pryor. I think he was a tremendous 135 and picked him steadfastly over Buchanan when most others didn't. Even tho he hammered my fave lightweight i can still appreciate the guy. I think he's a fantastic fighter with only Whitaker in his era able to handle him at his best, IMO.

I am clapping Mantequilla's post because i have been outnumbered, in a friendly way lol.

Now, aren't you the guy that scores Whitaker - Chavez a draw or even for Chavez? If so it is i that could never take you seriously in any discussion about Chavez. I don't think Chavez's family even scored that one for him.

[divac]

What a terrible shame i'm actually a fine fan of Chavez. I commonly name him one of the two greatest 140's head to head and think he'd beat Pryor. I think he was a tremendous 135 and picked him steadfastly over Buchanan when most others didn't. Even tho he hammered my fave lightweight i can still appreciate the guy. I think he's a fantastic fighter with only Whitaker in his era able to handle him at his best, IMO.

I am clapping Mantequilla's post because i have been outnumbered, in a friendly way lol.

Now, aren't you the guy that scores Whitaker - Chavez a draw or even for Chavez? If so it is i that could never take you seriously in any discussion about Chavez. I don't think Chavez's family even scored that one for him.

If that is the case, then my apologies John Thomas, but I just found it a little classless to support a poster that would insinuate that a prime or near prime Chavez would quit vs Pipino Cuevas.
It might have been said tongue and cheek, but I still looked upon it as classless.

If you did'nt mean it in that form as you said, then like I said, my apologies friend!

[JohnThomas1]

If that is the case, then my apologies John Thomas, but I just found it a little classless to support a poster that would insinuate that a prime or near prime Chavez would quit vs Pipino Cuevas.
It might have been said tongue and cheek, but I still looked upon it as classless.

If you did'nt mean it in that form as you said, then like I said, my apologies friend!

Apology sincerely accepted, my support to the post was nothing to do with the quitting aspect and i say that honestly of course. I was just happy to have someone picking the same fighter as i when i'd been having some friendly banter vs two excellent posters going the other way. I was supporting the siding, not the prediction.

Matequilla tho is entitled to his opinion, tho some might find it harsh or brutal. He's an excellent poster and i think we all can get a bit hard hitting when it comes to certain fighters or events.

At the end of the day you, SS, Vock and co. are taking Chavez's better skills and resume over Pipino's size and power while i go the other way. I will readily admit i could easily be wrong but it's just the way i see it. We've both given reasonable merits to both sides of the coin i think.

Keep well mate.

[JohnThomas1]

Yes sir, that is indeed a different view and I admit at the outset you could be correct. I don't see pre-Hearns Ceuvas being stopped by Chavez if that is what you mean, sir.


Yeah i can't see Chavez actually wearing down Cuevas like he did other good fighters at lesser weights. His vaunted body attack will have a bit less effect and Cuevas has a top chin i reckon.

About the outcome of this theoretical fight my opinion is based on the notion that in 1979 against Randy Shields (a solid but not spectacular contender) Cuevas went the distance in a title fight against a man weighing only 142. Cuevas won a comfortable UD but Shields did come to fight...

I think that this is a near peak Cuevas, perhaps not his very best night - but in the ballpark.

Would a prime Chavez be better at 140 than the Shields at 142 who fought Cuevas that night?

Almost certainly.

Enough better to take a decision. I don't know...
I think perhaps so.

Fair post. Shields was light early career but quickly grew in weight to the point where i think he was a lot closer to being a natural welter than Julio. Tho he weighed 142 vs Cuevas i will contend that it was a solid as shit 142 where Julio will very very definitely be carrying substancial artificial packing. You might well be right in your prediction, i think this fight is a fine line to pick.

You seem to strongly believe that Cuevas takes this easily and I have great respect for your analysis and opinions. I believe I see some of your reasoning - If you have more opinions on this I really would like to hear more.

i've probably put myself across a bit wrong here. I've conjured up the image of a blowout with my Hearns - Duran comments but it wouldn't be like this. Chavez had more skill and would certainly be competitive as long as it went. The point i poorly got across, or tried to, is that i see Cuevas shocking people by actually taking Chavez out when his chin is regarded as pure granite.

I'm old and can be a little slow to change my mind :!:
But I hope I'm still able to see reason and learn something :happy

You're doing great mate, look forward to more banter with you.

[anarci]

Its as simple as that. Cuevas was an assasin, but he was a one dimensional assasin that would be very easy for an elite multifaceted great like Chavez to figure out.

The same Chavez who drew with Pernell Whitaker at Welter would have easily and systematically have broken down Pipino in route to a late stoppage.

Pipino had more punching power yes, but so did alot of fighters that Chavez faced and defeated.....fighters like Rosario and Mayweather.

.....anybody who picks Cuevas in this fight is severely underestimating Chavez' defensive and boxing qualities.
Because Chavez was such a good swarmer, his other great qualities are ignored by many.

Straight out, nobody at 147 lbs or below with the one dimensional skills of a fighter like Cuevas comes even close to defeating JC Chavez.
I dont care how hard he hits.....you have to bring more than just a powerpunching game to defeat a great multifaceted fighter like JC Chavez.
:deal:good Chavez by decision. Even though this wasnt Chavez weight ,style wise i dont see a guy like Cuevas beating him. For as hard as he hit i dont see him knockingout a prime Chavez or even hitting him with regulartity. I dont think Chavez would make this a war and thats the only chance Cuevas has here. Chavez would outbox him and slug at the right times, hed have to fight disciplined and he would. Chavez by comfortable decision.

[laxpdx]

Chavez is too small. Pipino murders him...literally.

[anarci]

Chavez is too small. Pipino murders him...literally.
I think the posters here are putting to much emphasis on size here, bottom line Chavez is the better fighter here and style wise this outweighs Cuevas advantages. It would be different against a welters like Hearns or ODLH,Leonard who are big and Fast. But Chavez would be able to outbox Cuevas. Only fighter i can thnk of that maybe stops a prime Chavez(even at welter)would be Hearns(maybe Robinson) because of his height range speed and ferociolus power. Cuevas wouldnt have those advantages here. Cuevas Power is on par with the Hitman but he wont have the other advantages.

[WhataRock]

I said this in a Chavez vs Margarito thread..Size is only one part of the picture.

Chavez does everything better than Cueves expect power and is physically smaller..but even then I dont think its such a huge gulf. As they were about the same height and Pipino was a same day weigh in welter. Chavez was close to unbeatable and possibly the greatest ever only one divison below. Of course a guy with his style and physical attributes isnt going to be able to weight jump like others but I didnt think he transformed so drastically putting on a few pounds over 140.

But my jaw wouldnt drop to the ground in shock if Pipino won it..He just had the power that could change a fight at any point, against just about any fighter.

[laxpdx]

I said this in a Chavez vs Margarito thread..Size is only one part of the picture.

Chavez does everything better than Cueves expect power and is physically smaller..but even then I dont think its such a huge gulf. As they were about the same height and Pipino was a same day weigh in welter. Chavez was close to unbeatable and possibly the greatest ever only one divison below. Of course a guy with his style and physical attributes isnt going to be able to weight jump like others but I didnt think he transformed so drastically putting on a few pounds over 140.

But my jaw wouldnt drop to the ground in shock if Pipino won it..He just had the power that could change a fight at any point, against just about any fighter.

Exactly the point. With his freakish power, Cuevas could hurt an opponent at any time. He had those Foreman-esque qualities. Chavez may be more skilled overall but he's still a small-boned fighter. Julio never tasted punches like the ones Pipino threw. I can't see Chavez being able to take too many of those and go the distance.

[anarci]

Exactly the point. With his freakish power, Cuevas could hurt an opponent at any time. He had those Foreman-esque qualities. Chavez may be more skilled overall but he's still a small-boned fighter. Julio never tasted punches like the ones Pipino threw. I can't see Chavez being able to take too many of those and go the distance.

I understand the power Cuevas brought, he is truly one of the best punchers ever pfp. But im telling you that a prime Chavez had one of the greatest chins ever (even moving up) on top of being skillful enough to not let Cuevas tee off on him. Chavez had underrated defense, its not like Cuevas had Taylor like speed where he would be able to find Chavez with any regularity.

[zadfrak]

Agree with John Thomas' take.


A big thing that's overlooked is just how fast that hook of Cuevas was. That thing sizzled and he threw a ton of them. And he was a finisher.

I think those long arms and that out of the gate early aggression catches a 147 version of Chavez. I also think Chavez was a terrific "on top" style of fighter that looks terrific when everything goes their way. It's the problems that surface when things don't go their way. I think those problems surface here and he gets hit and badly hurt & this definately isn't a Roger Mayweather coming after him to close the show.

I also think the Chavez style of starting slowly and waiting until the fourth round or so to start walking down his opponent play into the Cuevas style. I see Chavez being way on the outside in that first round and not quickly closing the gap, but just slowly closing the gap. Big mistake. That puts him in that danger zone for the first 2 or 3 rounds and that nasty left hook and brutal left uppercut by Cuevas is going to land. And Cuevas knows how to follow up.

[MAG1965]

At welterweight Cuevas destroys Julio Cesar Chavez

[la-califa]

Cuevas would never beat a fighter like Hearns; his bread and butter were those whipping, concussive hooks at mid range, and Tommy’s long arms and speed would never allow him to reach his target. Cuevas was a one dimensional and methodical fighter, but give him a smaller man without the guns to keep him at bay, and Pipino would have a field day.You, mean like the punches Iran Barkley threw? Never say never...

[divac]

At welterweight Cuevas destroys Julio Cesar Chavez

:lol::lol::lol::nut

Take a sniff at Chavez fight with Chapo Rosario......

......destroy, is what alot of people thought Rosario would do to Chavez when Chavez move up to lightweight.

Chavez infight defense made Rosario's brutal type offensive power null and void.......

.......and in Rosario, we're talking about a fighter who was exponentially much better skilled than a brute type like Cuevas.


I have'nt a single doubt on this matchup.....they could matchup at middleweight, the Chavez that fought Whitaker who was a bit past prime.
Chavez could weigh 143 lbs, and Pipino comes in at 160 lbs, Chavez' skill by far surpasses Pipino so much, it would'nt make a difference, Chavez would put a beatdown on Pipino.

[zadfrak]

The fly in the ointment regarding the Rosario match is that I never bought into the guy. And I sure did not like his elbows out style 1 iota against Chavez. The surprise to me was Rosario lasting as long as he did. I did not think it should've ever gone anywhere near that long and should've been over in 7 rounds or less. Chavez is way too much for that guy.

I think rosario fighting Cuevas with that elbow way out is disaster as well and it'd be the Hiranaka fight all over.

[anarci]

A poll would have been intresting as this seems somewhat close with Cuevas maybe getting a few more votes.