If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

[UpWithEvil]

I was going to reply to another poster in the "Top 10" thread, but I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant its own thread.

Evander Holyfield has had an impressive heavyweight career and certainly has to be ranked among the elite heavyweight of his generation.

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career. Because boxing, like professional baseball, was largely ignorant of the extent of steroid use during the 90s, Holyfield received little scrutinty to this effect during his heavyweight prime and was only caught with his hand in the juice jar in recent years.

For those of you who rank Holyfield hightly on an all-time heavyweight basis, does his use of steroids affect your placement? If irrefutable evidence came to light proving that Holyfield had been abusing steroids since he made the leap to the heavyweight ranks in the early-90s (and thus was "on steroids" for all of his heavyweight bouts) would that disqualify him from your rankings?

[McGrain]

This is such a horrible question.

The guy still goes in and puts it all on the line. He still has to beat the best in the division.

But I think yes, it would affect my rankings. Also, it would be almost impossible to quantify degrees to which his rating would be damaged. So i'd probably just lift him out of my ratings alltogether. I have him at #8 just now.

[TBooze]

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career.

Morally UpWithEvil, you may think that; I could not possibly comment...

Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...

I may not be up with it, but I see no Evil, I here no Evil ;) , thus Holyfield does not suffer a negative reaction in my book.

[UpWithEvil]

Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...

Let's not play lawyerball with the facts. Mark McGwire has never failed a steroid test either, while Rafael Palmiero testified to Congress that he'd never touch the stuff just months before he tested positive himself.

A man with Holyfield's birthdate and Holyfield's personal cell phone number repeatedly ordered steroids from Applied Pharmacy in Mobile, Alabama in 2004. The details came out this February shortly after the pharmacy was raided by federal agents, with several other professional athletes being implicated for purchasing from the same pharmacy.

Story on SI.com ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[TBooze]

Let's not play lawyerball with the facts. Mark McGwire has never failed a steroid test either, while Rafael Palmiero testified to Congress that he'd never touch the stuff just months before he tested positive himself.

A man with Holyfield's birthdate and Holyfield's personal cell phone number repeatedly ordered steroids from Applied Pharmacy in Mobile, Alabama in 2004. The details came out this February shortly after the pharmacy was raided by federal agents, with several other professional athletes being implicated for purchasing from the same pharmacy.

Story on SI.com ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Well, if we are to be fair, you need to be proven guilty to be hung. The fact is Holyfield is not guilty at the moment. Sure that may not please all, but it is the way it should be done IMO.

[Marnoff]

Steroid use simply has to impact someone's placement all-time. I believe he has used it, but let them convict him.

[UpWithEvil]

From the article:

"We spoke with several officials with the Nevada Athletic Commission, and while HGH is on a list of banned substances, boxers are not tested for it."

Given this fact, the exculpatory power of, "Evander...has not, to my knowledge failed a test" has to be considered worthless.

But this isn't about something as trivial as matters of law, "guilty" vs "not guilty". No jury is going to rule that Holyfield's heavyweight career received an unfair boost due to his reliance on under-the-counter pharmaceuticals. Your standard of legal "guilt" or "non-guilt" doesn't really factor into this.

[McGrain]

Well, if we are to be fair, you need to be proven guilty to be hung. The fact is Holyfield is not guilty at the moment. Sure that may not please all, but it is the way it should be done IMO.


I agree with you.

Thought there's no need for this truth to affect this thread about a theoretical topic and rating fighters.

[TBooze]

Steroid use simply has to impact someone's placement all-time. I believe he has used it, but let them convict him.

I agree, I used to have a lot of time for James Toney... but not anymore.

[janitor]

When did steroids first become available?

[UpWithEvil]

I agree with you.

Thought there's no need for this truth to affect this thread about a theoretical topic and rating fighters.
We're not talking about sending Evander to jail.

If you want the truth, here's the truth:

A man with Holyfield's private phone number, living at a non-existent address ("794 Evander") and sharing Holyfield's birthdate repeatedly purchased steroids from a pharmacy which also provided steroids to numerous other professional athletes.

Again, this isn't about legal culpability or standards of evidence, admissibility, or any of that other lawyerly bullshit; how Johnny Cochrane would bamboozle the evidence shouldn't matter here.

[UpWithEvil]

When did steroids first become available?
Widely? 1950s, early-60s.

[janitor]

Widely? 1950s, early-60s.

And when to a select few?

[McGrain]

We're not talking about sending Evander to jail.

If you want the truth, here's the truth:

A man with Holyfield's private phone number, living at a non-existent address ("794 Evander") and sharing Holyfield's birthdate repeatedly purchased steroids from a pharmacy which also provided steroids to numerous other professional athletes.

Again, this isn't about legal culpability or standards of evidence, admissibility, or any of that other lawyerly bullshit; how Johnny Cochrane would bamboozle the evidence shouldn't matter here.


Yeah, I know all this.

Like I said, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss.

[UpWithEvil]

And when to a select few?

IIRC, testosterone was first synthesized in the late-30s. That would be considered the first synthetic steroid hormone. I don't believe it was used for performance-enhancement until after the war, when Soviet scientists began to experiment with human subjects.

[McGrain]

IIRC, testosterone was first synthesized in the late-30s. That would be considered the first synthetic steroid hormone. I don't believe it was used for performance-enhancement until after the war, when Soviet scientists began to experiment with human subjects.


Yeah, I think this is about right, wasn't it originally used in attempts to train bone disorders and stuff like that?

Would you be up for speculating as to what time the drug found it's way into boxing?

[cross_trainer]

Yeah, I think this is about right, wasn't it originally used in attempts to train bone disorders and stuff like that?

Would you be up for speculating as to what time the drug found it's way into boxing?


...and when drugs in general found their way into boxing? I would like to hear this as well.

As a fairly conservative sport, boxing seems like it would attract steroid use only relatively recently, when weightlifting and similar methods also came into vogue.

[UpWithEvil]

Would you be up for speculating as to what time the drug found it's way into boxing?

Actually, there is some decent evidence on the topic that came to light following the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Russian scientists were administering steroids to weightlifters by 1950. By the 1970s Eastern block nations were using numerous synthetic steroids almost indiscriminately for their para-professional athletes (recall all the jokes about East German swimmers and such).

Steroid use in the West became prevalent among bodybuilders and weightlifters in the mid-60s. By the 1970s football players were gobbling steroids by the handful with almost no medical guidance, based on underground suggestions and whispered gym conversations. By the 1980s international track & field monitors finally realized the degree to which steroid use had permeated their sport but there was significant dispute over what effect, if any, these drugs had on performance.

When Ben Johnson shattered the world record in the 100M dash, that proved to be the wake-up call for the sport. Steroids didn't just make you big, bulky, and strong, as the public perception went. Steroids could make you fast and explosive too.

Suddenly every professional athlete could see a potential benefit from the drugs. Baseball players could build strength AND recover from injuries faster. Boxers could train harder, reduce bodyfat, AND gain lean muscle.

I believe we'll look back on the 1990s as the Golden Age of Steroids in American sport. As time passes and more revelations come to the fore (remember that Holyfield, after being confronted with his own steroid link, denied any involvement but quickly passed along that he'd heard Tyson was a user) we'll find it easier to list the athletes who *didn't* use the drugs at least once or twice.

[McGrain]

I believe we'll look back on the 1990s as the Golden Age of Steroids in American sport. As time passes and more revelations come to the fore (remember that Holyfield, after being confronted with his own steroid link, denied any involvement but quickly passed along that he'd heard Tyson was a user) we'll find it easier to list the athletes who *didn't* use the drugs at least once or twice.


Very interesting post.

[cross_trainer]

Actually, there is some decent evidence on the topic that came to light following the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Russian scientists were administering steroids to weightlifters by 1950. By the 1970s Eastern block nations were using numerous synthetic steroids almost indiscriminately for their para-professional athletes (recall all the jokes about East German swimmers and such).

Steroid use in the West became prevalent among bodybuilders and weightlifters in the mid-60s. By the 1970s football players were gobbling steroids by the handful with almost no medical guidance, based on underground suggestions and whispered gym conversations. By the 1980s international track & field monitors finally realized the degree to which steroid use had permeated their sport but there was significant dispute over what effect, if any, these drugs had on performance.

When Ben Johnson shattered the world record in the 100M dash, that proved to be the wake-up call for the sport. Steroids didn't just make you big, bulky, and strong, as the public perception went. Steroids could make you fast and explosive too.

Suddenly every professional athlete could see a potential benefit from the drugs. Baseball players could build strength AND recover from injuries faster. Boxers could train harder, reduce bodyfat, AND gain lean muscle.

I believe we'll look back on the 1990s as the Golden Age of Steroids in American sport. As time passes and more revelations come to the fore (remember that Holyfield, after being confronted with his own steroid link, denied any involvement but quickly passed along that he'd heard Tyson was a user) we'll find it easier to list the athletes who *didn't* use the drugs at least once or twice.

To tell the truth, I suspect that the vast majority of the top heavyweights have been using them at one time or another...nor do we really have the ability to accurately catch them all. As far as I'm concerned, Holyfield was on the same level of playing field as his steroid-using contemporaries.

[UpWithEvil]

As far as I'm concerned, Holyfield was on the same level of playing field as his steroid-using contemporaries.

I doubt that *every* contender was using steroids in the 1990s, and that's the problematic aspect of this discussion. I think it's fair to guess (and it's just a guess) that the 1990s incarnations of George Foreman and Larry Holmes were not using steroids. Holyfield beat them both, but to what degree was his performance improved by the strength and explosiveness he gained through steroid use? Larry Holmes gave Holyfield a surprisingly competitive fight; does a drug-free Holyfield maybe lose another round or two as his strength wanes during the fight? How different the historic legacies of both Holmes and Holyfield would be if Larry eeks out another couple of rounds that night.

That is my biggest concern - did steroids (in this example) rob Larry Holmes of a possible consensus spot in the all-time top-5? What of Riddick Bowe? Does Tyson demolish a juice-free Holyfield in 1996 and see his own career rebirth?

It's insidious. And that's why most people view it as cheating, regardless of the legalities involved.

[Thread Stealer]

I think he used steroids. I think some of his inconsistent performances and ailments may have been due to it. Like the rubber match against Bowe when he suffered from a case of too-much-HGH-itis, or the Moorer fight when the NSAC said he showed the signs of HGH use.

But that's just speculation and thought. There's no proof of it, and we also don't know which other HWs that were champs or top contenders used.

I don't think I'll change my rankings based on simply speculation. If real evidence came out, then that's different.

[UpWithEvil]

What would constitute "real evidence", by your estimation?

[Sizzle]

No, I wouldn't

The playing field has not been even for awhile - For all we know all his opponents have used steroids, also.

And we don't know for absolute certain.

I'm not convinced steroids = a world title either. Holyfield will still have needed to acquire skills and show guts in the ring to get where he has, they're not a miracle drug rather a mixed bag of benefits and not so favourable effects.

I rank him top10, anyway.

[rekcutnevets]

I currently rank him at #9.

I think I was asking you about this in another thread recently. If you had told me about the 2004 order findings, I would have taken your claim a little more seriously.

If you could prove he did it in the 90's, I would change my opinion of him. I place him where he is based on his performances in that decade. I guess I'll always wonder about it, but innocent until proven guilty.

[UpWithEvil]

Definitively prove Holyfield used steroids and I will consider the question.

If you've read the thread and the linked article on si.com, you are aware of the facts in evidence. As I've made quite clear, I've no interest in lawyerly obfuscation on the matter. Save your Chewbacca Defense for Hector Camacho's appeal.

[UpWithEvil]

I think I was asking you about this in another thread recently. If you had told me about the 2004 order findings, I would have taken your claim a little more seriously.

I am almost positive that I discussed this very specific si.com article in that thread. It's one of the very few pieces of solid evidence we have linking steroids to championship-caliber boxing (Roy Jones Jr.'s BALCO ties being perhaps better-known, along with positive tests from Fernando Vargas and James Toney).

If you could prove he did it in the 90's, I would change my opinion of him.

But again, I ask what would constitute proof? Boxing didn't test for steroids during this period, so actual analytical results from a laboratory are out of the question. Barring that, what do you think the necessary standard of evidence would be?

For his part, Holyfield denies ever having used steroids, even in the face of the evidence against him dating back to 2004. Given the specificity of the evidence, he's either the victim of a conspiratorial plot, or a bald-faced liar. If he's such a shameless liar, one cannot help but assume that any pleas of innocence on the topic are similarly disingenuous.

[cuchulain]

With or withot steroids, Holy is not in my alltime top 10 heavyweight list.

[hobgoblin]

From the article:

"We spoke with several officials with the Nevada Athletic Commission, and while HGH is on a list of banned substances, boxers are not tested for it."

Given this fact, the exculpatory power of, "Evander...has not, to my knowledge failed a test" has to be considered worthless.

But this isn't about something as trivial as matters of law, "guilty" vs "not guilty". No jury is going to rule that Holyfield's heavyweight career received an unfair boost due to his reliance on under-the-counter pharmaceuticals. Your standard of legal "guilt" or "non-guilt" doesn't really factor into this.

i hate to be mean, but steroids does help in those really close moments of boxing where you're fighting back when hurt. wouldn't dare question holyfield's heart and clever ability, but against a guy like rocky marciano or joe frazier or riddick bowe and maybe tyson, you will get hurt and you just wanna go down but you muster all the courage and STRENGTH you can to fight back. steroids can help there. in that sense, i do lower him. well, let me think this through...

against atgs w +/- steroids prime for prime

lewis: win / win (competitive but close decision)
tyson: win / win
bowe: don't know what happens, steroids definitely will help big time in this fight.
holmes: loss / loss
ali: loss / loss
liston: loss / loss
foreman: loss / possible win (steroids will definitely help pull out of tough situations in this one)
frazier: loss / win
marciano: loss / win
louis: loss / loss
louis: loss / loss

in a head to head sense, it does affect him. in terms of what he achieved, he'd have beaten all the guys that he did beat (tyson, foreman, holmes, mercer, moorer) with or without steroids because he outboxed those guys.

in terms of traits, holy's greatest abilities was: 1. ring smarts - clever boxer, look at his clever boxing against tyson when holy was past his physical best and tyson was a wild, dangerous boar ; 2. hand speed and general skills ; 3. heart ; 4. physical ability to fight while hurt (yes, i separated this from 3)

steroids would affect only #4 and that would not be a factor against anyone except bowe and MAYBE tyson.

yes, it slightly lowers him.

[ChrisPontius]

When did steroids become widely available?
Widely? 1950s, early-60s.

I think this is the key point here.

I'm pretty sure that Holyfield was on steroids when he gained 20 pounds of lean muscle under guidance of that professional juicing guy, while already being in lean, ripped shape before that.

But the thing is, how can we know who used them and when?

Schwarzenegger was already juicing up in the 60's, who is to know Foreman didn't also take them in the 70's? Or Norton, or Lyle? There was no control whatsoever back then.

I wouldn't be suprised if Foreman (or Holmes) took them in their late-careers either. You don't have to be in ripped shape to take them. Look at Botha and Toney, they used them but weren't exactly Mike Weavers either. Add to that the psychological side ("i'm old now, i need this edge to compete") and the fact that Foreman was fighting very active for an old man.


While Holyfield is one of the extreme examples where it's pretty obvious, in some cases it's not, i.e. Botha and Toney. There may have been a lot of steroid users from the 60's on but they get a free pass because there was no control back then. In fact there still is not much control. So i don't know how fair it is to punish Holyfield for it.
Hard question actually... i'd have to think about it a bit more.

[JohnThomas1]

Lee Haney (Body building great) was instrumental in Holyfields gaining of weight and training at the time he went to Heavyweight. Haney had great knowledge of steriods. Whether or not this means Holyfield used roids at that time we don't really know.

[JIm Broughton]

If it can be proven that Evander abused steroids or more likely HGH then IMO it would negatively affect the "Real Deal's" overall standings. I'm always skeptical when I see a naturally gifted athlete put on an unusually high amount of muscle mass,ripped muscle mass in a relatively short period of time. The sad part is that in Boxing, this is'nt even necessary. Nothing replaces good old fashioned hard work like the old timers used to do. Ali, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey et al trained this way and the results speak for themselves.

[Sonny's jab]

I was going to reply to another poster in the "Top 10" thread, but I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant its own thread.

Evander Holyfield has had an impressive heavyweight career and certainly has to be ranked among the elite heavyweight of his generation.

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career. Because boxing, like professional baseball, was largely ignorant of the extent of steroid use during the 90s, Holyfield received little scrutinty to this effect during his heavyweight prime and was only caught with his hand in the juice jar in recent years.

For those of you who rank Holyfield hightly on an all-time heavyweight basis, does his use of steroids affect your placement? If irrefutable evidence came to light proving that Holyfield had been abusing steroids since he made the leap to the heavyweight ranks in the early-90s (and thus was "on steroids" for all of his heavyweight bouts) would that disqualify him from your rankings?

No.
Vitali Klitschko, James Toney, Frans Botha and Roy Jones JR. have all FAILED DRUGS TESTS, so it baffles me why people single out Holyfield. Perhaps because he was better at heavyweight ?

Tommy Morrison admitted he took them all through his career. Mike Tyson's people paid Razor Ruddock's people quite a bit of money to drop the insistence on steroid tests for their fights.

I think Evander Holyfield has likely taken some drugs to improve strength and recovery over the years.
I think Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Hasim Rahman and many other top heavyweights have probably taken drugs/hormones to help strength/power/recovery too.

People have singled out Holyfield his entire career, because he was an established fighter at 190 who had the balls and ability to become great at heavyweight when others were saying he couldn't do it.
Nevermind the fact that despite being almost 6'3 tall he never went much beyond 215 pounds, he's still labelled a major juicer. That's funny, most steroid freaks of a frame that size might at least bulk up to 230 or 235 if they were such big users.
I suspect Holyfield used drugs, but clearly not excessively by the standards of the day.

Of course, Holyfield also gets singled out because he is always IN-SHAPE.
If he carried 40 pounds of flab on him he'd be less maligned for his alleged "drug use" since the ignorant consensus view of steroids is that they turn your body in a Schwarzenegger-type phsique.
James Toney has had to get caught twice with a cocktail of steroids in his bloodstream, and moved all the way up from 160, and only now is he on a par with Holyfield in the "drugs use" rumour mill ! Because no one wants a physique like Toney's so they dont naturally take his steroid use as seriously ! :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Mike Tyson's people paid Razor Ruddock's people quite a bit of money to drop the insistence on steroid tests for their fights.


I'd like the source on this one Sonny, i've never heard of it but did lose a bit of contact for a few years.

[Holmes' Jab]

This is such a horrible question.

The guy still goes in and puts it all on the line. He still has to beat the best in the division.

But I think yes, it would affect my rankings. Also, it would be almost impossible to quantify degrees to which his rating would be damaged. So i'd probably just lift him out of my ratings alltogether. I have him at #8 just now.

I totally agree with all these sentiments. Evander is also currently at #8 in my ATG list ...

[fists of fury]

I think why Holyfield may be singled out is that Holyfield is a devout hristian, and good hristian men aren't supposed to cheat. that's my take on him being singled out.
If it was proved tyson took roids, nobody would bat an eyelid because we'd say "oh, typical." When mr. clean Holy does it, the situation takes on a radical new turn.

Firstly, we have to establish whether steroids impacts on one's boxing performance.
I took a mild steroid for 3 months once and I can tell you it's something you cannot comprehend until you've tried it.
I got bigger in a very short space of time. In three weeks people were asking my why I was getting big so quickly. It made me a LOT stonger as well, again in a short space of time.
I was adding 10 kilograms (22 pounds) to the squat bar on a weekly basis. Think about that for a second.
On top of all that, I had boundless energy and wanted to train all the time. I felt like I could train all day.

The benefits to a boxer would be immeasurable. He would put on lean muscle mass quickly, get stronger and train harder. He'd also recover more quickly from hard training and as an added bonus the drug could (but not always) make him naturally more agressive.

With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.
The huge amounts of money that can be made in boxing ensure that athletes will do whatever's possible to gain an edge. Let's not forget about a natural competitive streak and pride too. There are lots of reasons why boxers do not want to lose, and if a drug can help make them win, they'll do it.

Let's face it, most boxers are not angels to start with, and I doubt many would have many moral qualms about taking steroids. I know Evander's a Christian and all, but he's not beyond hypocrisy, or to put it another way, he's human and prone to weaknesses, just like all of us.

Was Evander on steroids? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. He put on about 30-35lbs. of lean muscle mass during his career.
In a sport like boxing, where the constant cardiovascular training would make it difficult for a man to build up serious muscle, Evander "grew" from a rather lean cruiserweight into a heavily-muscled heavyweight.
That said, I think 90 to 95% of sportsmen and women take steroids. I'm pretty sure post-prison Tyson took roids and guys like Vinny Pazienza and Micheal Moorer too. Plenty of boxers have and will continue to do so.

Does it detract from his legacy? A little, yes. After all, we'll never know just how much it helped him, but we can safely say that to a degree taking steroids did.
However, as I said he was hardly alone in this department, although some of his opponents probably were clean.

[UpWithEvil]

With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.

"Probably"? There was absolutely zero scrutiny of steroid use in boxing during the 90s. Even today it's largely considered a non-issue. Heck, even today, with Holyfield caught with his hand in the juicer jar there are still denialists who will settle for nothing less than photographic evidence of Holyfield, needle-in-ass, before they accept reality.

Boxing, like baseball, is going to have to come to grips with the proliferation of performance-enhancing drugs during the 1990s. Baseball is at least making a token effort in that regard; witness Mark McGwire's failure to be elected to the Hall of Fame despite offensive number that rank him among the all-time elite (and, of course, note that McGwire never failed a steroid test either). It is now tacitly acknowledge that most of baseball's sluggers from that decade - McGwire, Sosa, Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmiero, et al, were all using steroids, along with a host of lesser All-Stars (Bret Boone, Ken Camineti, Ivan Rodriguez). Boxing needs to make a serious assessment of its own house in this regard.

[doublesuited]

Riddick Bowe beat Holyfield in his prime. Bowe is clearly the better heavyweight.

[Sonny's jab]

I'd like the source on this one Sonny, i've never heard of it but did lose a bit of contact for a few years.

I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.

[JimmyShimmy]

It's funny 'cause Holy's religious motto going into the Tyson fight was, in short, "Strength through god". If it's true about the roids, something I suspect more likely true than false, then his god is an illegal drug.

[Thread Stealer]

I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.

Tyson's probably been a pothead his whole life.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's been on blow for many years and only now it's really known that he uses b/c he got arrested.

[frankwornank]

:yikes I JUST WANT TO PUT ASIDE THE ISSUE OF TOP 10. THE THING ABOUT HOLYFIELD IS THAT ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT, HE WAS CAPABLE OF BEATING ANY HEAVYWEIGHT THAT EVER LIVED. HE HAD ABILITY AND GREAT DETERMINATION. HE WAS ALWAYS IN GREAT SHAPE.

[Zakman]

Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...

Exactly. Until anyone can produce a positive test that showed Holyfield was taking roids, exactly which fights he taking roids for, AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.

[Stewbear]

I think why Holyfield may be singled out is that Holyfield is a devout hristian, and good hristian men aren't supposed to cheat. that's my take on him being singled out.
If it was proved tyson took roids, nobody would bat an eyelid because we'd say "oh, typical." When mr. clean Holy does it, the situation takes on a radical new turn.

Firstly, we have to establish whether steroids impacts on one's boxing performance.
I took a mild steroid for 3 months once and I can tell you it's something you cannot comprehend until you've tried it.
I got bigger in a very short space of time. In three weeks people were asking my why I was getting big so quickly. It made me a LOT stonger as well, again in a short space of time.
I was adding 10 kilograms (22 pounds) to the squat bar on a weekly basis. Think about that for a second.
On top of all that, I had boundless energy and wanted to train all the time. I felt like I could train all day.

The benefits to a boxer would be immeasurable. He would put on lean muscle mass quickly, get stronger and train harder. He'd also recover more quickly from hard training and as an added bonus the drug could (but not always) make him naturally more agressive.

With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.
The huge amounts of money that can be made in boxing ensure that athletes will do whatever's possible to gain an edge. Let's not forget about a natural competitive streak and pride too. There are lots of reasons why boxers do not want to lose, and if a drug can help make them win, they'll do it.

Let's face it, most boxers are not angels to start with, and I doubt many would have many moral qualms about taking steroids. I know Evander's a Christian and all, but he's not beyond hypocrisy, or to put it another way, he's human and prone to weaknesses, just like all of us.

Was Evander on steroids? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. He put on about 30-35lbs. of lean muscle mass during his career.
In a sport like boxing, where the constant cardiovascular training would make it difficult for a man to build up serious muscle, Evander "grew" from a rather lean cruiserweight into a heavily-muscled heavyweight.
That said, I think 90 to 95% of sportsmen and women take steroids. I'm pretty sure post-prison Tyson took roids and guys like Vinny Pazienza and Micheal Moorer too. Plenty of boxers have and will continue to do so.

Does it detract from his legacy? A little, yes. After all, we'll never know just how much it helped him, but we can safely say that to a degree taking steroids did.
However, as I said he was hardly alone in this department, although some of his opponents probably were clean.

Clean living Evander:lol:
There has simply been lots of links between holyfield and steroid use, which is very different to smoking cannabis:patsch
Also Zakman if this had instead been about Lewis we all know you would be taking a different line.
Lol having to prove using steroids in a particular fight actually helped him win and if he would have won without them!
Might as well just legalise it all guys!

[UpWithEvil]

Exactly. Until anyone can produce a positive test that showed Holyfield was taking roids, exactly which fights he taking roids for, AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.

Oh, Mr. Holyfield is clean as can be. But this Evan Fields fellow, who lives on Evander Drive and shares a cell phone with Evander - well, he buys steroids by the bucketful and is not to be trusted.

[TBooze]

AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.

No, If it is proven Holyfield has taken drugs in any fight, win or lose, Holyfield should lose all credibility... But he has not, so he should not.

[UpWithEvil]

All of the available evidence points to Evander Holyfield being more of a steroid collector than a steroid user.

[TBooze]

All of the available evidence points to Evander Holyfield being more of a steroid collector than a steroid user.

Yes, hopefully I am wrong and that is the case, but I got a feeling that in the end if the guilt is there, it will be found out.

If a fighter is found out to of taken steroids, his career would mean nothing IMO and he would hopefully never be allowed to box again.

[Zakman]

Until you place the roids in his veins and prove that it made a difference, all you have is speculation, nothing more. Show me a positive test and then it's arguable. Until then, it's nothing more than rumor and innuendo.

[Stewbear]

Until you place the roids in his veins and prove that it made a difference, all you have is speculation, nothing more. Show me a positive test and then it's arguable. Until then, it's nothing more than rumor and innuendo.

If it can be proved Holyfield has taken steroids then nothing is 'arguable' he is guilty as charged.
Anyway Holyfield will always have to deal with these questions, and many people will accept there is enough circumstancial evidence to conclude he had/does use steroids.

[enquirer]

I suggest that a lot of boxers have taken or take steroids to aid training. Jones was found out,toney,botha and many others....Some may admit this in interviews.....I think if we really open our eyes and see the reality of the situation we could see that in modern boxing it is a big factor as are banned diuretics that help guys to cut 15 pounds then gain it back overnight to have a big size difference come fight time.....
To me its cheating as guys are just trying to get an unfair advantage....The thing is i bet insiders in the fight game know this goes on but either turn a blind eye or justify it by saying everbody else does it.....
To me its hypocrisy,either legalise all steroids under doctors supervision so its a level playing field or ban competitors who get caught.....
Guys who preach christian values or such like but who are obviously on gear are hypocrites,liars and two faced....
Any boxer who has used them or any other drugs dents their all time standing immensely,and in fact shouldnt be ranked at all....
Can you imagine if guys like ali,monzon,robinson and such like had used steroids? How much greater would they have been? How can we compare fighters on steroids with old timers or clean boxers?

[Nemesis]

The Holyfield taking steroids rumor is a bit annoying when there's no tests that prove he did.

It wouldnt be a rumor then would it :D

[Nemesis]

I suggest that a lot of boxers have taken or take steroids to aid training. Jones was found out,toney,botha and many others....Some may admit this in interviews.....I think if we really open our eyes and see the reality of the situation we could see that in modern boxing it is a big factor as are banned diuretics that help guys to cut 15 pounds then gain it back overnight to have a big size difference come fight time.....
To me its cheating as guys are just trying to get an unfair advantage....The thing is i bet insiders in the fight game know this goes on but either turn a blind eye or justify it by saying everbody else does it.....
To me its hypocrisy,either legalise all steroids under doctors supervision so its a level playing field or ban competitors who get caught.....
Guys who preach christian values or such like but who are obviously on gear are hypocrites,liars and two faced....
Any boxer who has used them or any other drugs dents their all time standing immensely,and in fact shouldnt be ranked at all....
Can you imagine if guys like ali,monzon,robinson and such like had used steroids? How much greater would they have been? How can we compare fighters on steroids with old timers or clean boxers?

Excellent point about the de-hydration / rehydration process, as this IMO is a form of cheating too, what once was a 160lb'er against a 160lb'er is now a 160lb'er against a 174lb'er for the 'middleweight' title, doesnt sit right does it

[enquirer]

I think the day before weigh ins have made weight categories misleading and its hard to compare categories to the past nowadays....
I think there should be the 30 day check weigh in to determine if a boxer is losing weight sensibly. And the weigh in should be on the day of the fight,or even just before they enter the ring...If this is not practical then there should be a rule where your weight in the ring cannot exceed the next weight category up,eg a 154 guy could not weigh 160 or more in the ring. I feel this would make the categories more meaningful,make boxing safer (by reducing dehydration.) and stop the 'weight making difficulties' excuses you get from all these guys who put on 15 pounds after the weigh in and ONLY use this 'weight difficulties' excuse when they lose but never think its a factor when they beat on guys fifteen pounds lighter than them...

[UpWithEvil]

The Holyfield taking steroids rumor is a bit annoying when there's no tests that prove he did.

Like I said, all the evidence only shows that Holyfield purchased steroids. Who knows what he did with them? Traded them for baseball cards, gave them out at Halloween, donated them to a summer camp for scrawny kids - it's all speculation.

[bigG]

if takin steroids made you a great fighter...everyone would take em..simple as that.......holyfield is a great fighter, from cruiserweight days to hw champ....a real fighter with a real fighters heart.......if steroids made champions, loius monaco and johnny thunder would be world champs......

[TBooze]

if takin steroids made you a great fighter...everyone would take em..simple as that.......holyfield is a great fighter, from cruiserweight days to hw champ....a real fighter with a real fighters heart.......if steroids made champions, loius monaco and johnny thunder would be world champs......

You have a point to a degree; Holyfield is as we speak not guilty, so I will use Toney as an example.

The steroids may of turned a good fighter, into an excellent one. That is not fair to his opponents who did not take steroids, and fighters who lose ratings because Toney cheated to get an advantage over them.

[enquirer]

Of course steroids wont turn anybody into an all time great but they can help a great/good or all time great fighter get an unfair advantage over other fighters......ie its cheating....

[hobgoblin]

I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.

Your post was vilifyingly misleading. Marijuana and steroids are two different things in boxing. Everyone knows Tyson smokes weed. So what was your purpose? Certainly not just to say that Tyson smokes weed - common knowledge?

[bigG]

You have a point to a degree; Holyfield is as we speak not guilty, so I will use Toney as an example.

The steroids may of turned a good fighter, into an excellent one. That is not fair to his opponents who did not take steroids, and fighters who lose ratings because Toney cheated to get an advantage over them.

did toney not have a legitimate excuse for his positive test...some kinda cortisone/steroid for an injury??....i cant see how steroid use made jt a better fighter....he was/is a defensive master with excellent counterpunching style, sharp and accurate.....steroid use could add to your power possibly, allow you to train harder and longer than usual and add to lean muscle mass in the longer term.....but i cant see much lean muscle mass on jt and steroid use wouldnt have helped him hone the skills/attributes he already has/had....a more muscle bound boxer will become just that..bound..less able to move, less fluid in their movments and ultimately, will tire much quicker as the larger muscle mass wears them down...(see shannon briggs for reference...!!)...use of steroids that increase muscle mass can make you more exposive in the short term, but prone to fatigue in the longer term..holyfield has always fought at a pace and delivered hard, accurate sharp punches.....steroid use, for whatever reason, or not...holyfield is an atg in my opinion....

[prime]

Ringsidereport.com has an interview with Tommy Morrison which to me illustrates the problem with steroids. Expressing the typical view of juiced athletes, Morrison basically says it’s no one’s damn business what an athlete does to better himself (juicing up) because it puts butts in seats in that it makes for superior entertainment. The record book and setting an example for children? Let them be damned because, one, who knows what the Babe was on to do what he did and, two, by the time a kid is 20, he will have “grown a brain” and put everything in perspective.

What sad crap.

The record book shows how difficult it is to hit 755 home runs over a career or how difficult it is for a former champion to come back and win the title. In this era, time-honored feats are being reduced to the mundane by bulked-up, huge-headed freaks. Empirical evidence is enough to win the day in our courts and, by golly, to me it is enough to open my eyes and see that all this cartoonish buffoonery going on in the form of superhuman “feats” is a result of stampeding steroid use.

And, for Morrison’s information, kids are born with a brain and, may not always do what you say but will never fail to do what you do.

I have deleted Holy from my top-ten all-time heavy list because to me it is obvious enough that the accomplishments that once put him there were aided by steroids. The man grew better as he got older!??? At 35 he was a way better physical specimen than at 25?!!!

Since Holy was the only ‘90s boxer on my list, I just added Liston and no problem.

[TBooze]

did toney not have a legitimate excuse for his positive test...some kinda cortisone/steroid for an injury.

There is no excuse for taking an illegal drug, and Toney has failed two tests for steroid abuse. Once against Ruiz, and again against Batchelder, he should be thrown out the sport IMO.

[hobgoblin]

I have deleted Holy from my top-ten all-time heavy list because to me it is obvious enough that the accomplishments that once put him there were aided by steroids. The man grew better as he got older!??? At 35 he was a way better physical specimen than at 25?!!!

Since Holy was the only ‘90s boxer on my list, I just added Liston and no problem.

I think you're too skewed from your hate of steroids. Can't really blame you for refusing to consider what Holy would be like without the taint. Holyfield's best traits were not particularly sensitive to steroids IMO but I don't know a whole lot about steroids.

(1) He was a very smart boxer who used excellent strategy. Most desireable trait in a boxer IMO. He was second to none in this department.

(2) His heart was as big as any.
(3) Great chin.
(4) Excellent BOXING SKILLS and ring savvy
(5) Excellent handspeed

You can argue that steroids enhanced his ability to handle attrition - the Bowe fight would be a great example. Steroids would help against a guy like Rocky Marciano or Joe Frazier where they are just wearing you down and testing your limits and that little bit of help lets you get through. I'm a big Mike Tyson fan - maybe one could make a weak argument and say that if Holy wasn't juiced - he would not have been able to survive Tyson's brutal punches, make them look like nothing, and the dish back his own. Remember that beating Tyson and then Bowea are probably his most regarded achievments - the traits that Holy used to beat Tyson (1,2,3,4) were irrelevant to steroids IMO. He'd have won in similar fashion with or without.

As for Tommy and steroids - you can't win this one. Eventually it'll catch up to you and cause serious problems. There is no free lunch. The commission must enforce these rules for the sake of the athletes.

Since Holy was the only ‘90s boxer on my list, I just added Liston and no problem.

i'd have rated liston above him anyway but that's another story for another thread

[bigG]

..use of steroids will not increase your punch resistance........and i was unaware that toney had failed two tests......some medication contains steroids that are legal to prescribe but on the banned list for various sports....just to clarify that....after the ruiz fight, the jt camp claimed he had been taking medication and was prescribed these drugs and was unaware they were banned..thats what i recall from reading in boxing monthly at the time, as ever, i may be wrong on this one too!!!....im not saying 'vander doesnt take gear, how do i know that....but i do know that he is one of the sports most consciencous trainers and the training methods and protein supplelements/legal chemical enhancments available to athlestes nowdays can actually have much more prominent and longer lasting affects than any steroid.....im thinking creatine, whey protein etc....etc....with the training techniques and gyms now available and the over the counter training products you can legally buy, its no wonder so many athletes nowdays appear almost superhuman compared to days gone by....

[JohnThomas1]

..use of steroids will not increase your punch resistance

What about if you built your neck muscles up to a level they would not have reached without roids? The bigger stronger neck = less rattling of the brain = better punch resistance, no?

[UpWithEvil]

I'm a big Mike Tyson fan - maybe one could make a weak argument and say that if Holy wasn't juiced - he would not have been able to survive Tyson's brutal punches, make them look like nothing, and the dish back his own.

Holyfield himself said he'd heard from "somebody high up in boxing" that Tyson was a heavy steroid abuser. This same person supposedly told Evander, "Well, [Mike] Tyson is doing it, you should, too."

Not that Evander would ever consider such chicanery. He's no Evan Fields.

[barneyrub]

Dr margaret goodman publicly stated that when holyfield had his heart problems she was suspicious because that was a tell tale sign of steroid or hgh use.

[bigG]

What about if you built your neck muscles up to a level they would not have reached without roids? The bigger stronger neck = less rattling of the brain = better punch resistance, no?

...to a degree, having a big thick neck acts as a shockabsorber for punches.....however, i am of the school who believes that you cant put muscles on your chin....oliver mcall doesnt look like a big juicer with a 20 in plus neck......you could hit him with a bat all day and not ko the crazy sob....holyfield has always had a good chin...yes he could be hurt...see his fight with smokin bert....but he had above average whiskers.....i suppose the constant use of steroids can make a fighter more aggressive and more able to continually go to the well in the face of adversity....some traits 'vander has displayed in the past.......but i think you would all agree that heavily muscled fighters who look like juicers, generally arent the best fighters in any division....tyson dispalyed a more natural physique than bruno for instance.....big lennox had that big bloated round faced look associated with water retention from steroid use.....but i think thats just his genetics...take a look at his mum....haha........the bottom line is until real evidence is displayed either way, you can assume all athletes are clean...or assume they are all dirty.....your call....

[bigG]

....jst to clarify...im NOT suggestin either ll or bruno were juicers.....just giving examples for the sake of argument....

[Sonny's jab]

Your post was vilifyingly misleading. Marijuana and steroids are two different things in boxing. Everyone knows Tyson smokes weed. So what was your purpose? Certainly not just to say that Tyson smokes weed - common knowledge?

As far as I remember Tyson avoided a steroids test back in 1991. Paid a fine to forego the test. That's all I'm saying.

You are right, I should not have mentioned recreational drugs, I did so in a effort to defend Tyson's reputation or at least highlight that I am not insisting that he is a steroid user.

Hopefully I've been clear now in all my posts.

I will add (again) : There is no hard evidence that Holyfield or Tyson have used steroids. But I think they probably have.

[Sonny's jab]

Of course steroids wont turn anybody into an all time great but they can help a great/good or all time great fighter get an unfair advantage over other fighters......ie its cheating....

"an unfair advantage over other fighters" depends upon whether or not the other fighters are using steroids too.

If, at any given time, approx. 9 out of 10 of the world's best heavyweights are using (or have used) performance-enhancing drugs, then the bulk of the field of fair play is undisturbed by the use of drugs. Only against the small minority of lifelong "clean" fighters is the issue of cheating relevant.

Since we all agree that drug tests can only prove who IS using and not who is NOT using then we cannot ever be sure if anyone is not using. And we cannot be sure which individuals are being cheated against, or if any are at all.

[hobgoblin]

As far as I remember Tyson avoided a steroids test back in 1991. Paid a fine to forego the test. That's all I'm saying.

You are right, I should not have mentioned recreational drugs, I did so in a effort to defend Tyson's reputation or at least highlight that I am not insisting that he is a steroid user.

Hopefully I've been clear now in all my posts.

I will add (again) : There is no hard evidence that Holyfield or Tyson have used steroids. But I think they probably have.

I see you're being sarcastic. It's not good to discredit a fighter for no reason. We've kept Holy and Tyson in different boats for good reason (and with Tyson rightfully getting the short end of the stick). However, in this case, don't throw Tyson into this mess just because Holy tangled in it. There are plenty of logical indicators that Holyfield did steroids and that is what started this thread. Fine good for him - if anything I defended him about his status in ATG.

I doubt that Tyson consiously avoided the random drug tests for fear of growth hormones or steroids. He probably wanted to avoid drug tests in GENERAL (or rather this managers) because it was clear he did all sorts of recreational drugs. He isn't attentive enough to single out specifically steroids but probably drugs in general (perhaps one test could indicate something funny (as your body is an integated system) and then they do official tests for other stuff like recreational drugs and then Tyson gets in trouble). It is well known that Tyson was naturally a heavyweight. The same cannot be said of Holyfield.

Tyson made a lot of mistakes, messed up a lot in boxing, but steroids I doubt was one of them. Speak of it only if there is concrete proof - else it is slander. You wouldn't want someone to start speculating that you have explosives in your house w/o any basis, would you? It could get you into a lot of trouble. There is no evidence that Mike Tyson ever used performance enhancing drugs. He has displayed the same physical attributes i.e. punching power, speed, etc. since he was a teenager.

[hobgoblin]

"an unfair advantage over other fighters" depends upon whether or not the other fighters are using steroids too.

If, at any given time, approx. 9 out of 10 of the world's best heavyweights are using (or have used) performance-enhancing drugs, then the bulk of the field of fair play is undisturbed by the use of drugs. Only against the small minority of lifelong "clean" fighters is the issue of cheating relevant.

Since we all agree that drug tests can only prove who IS using and not who is NOT using then we cannot ever be sure if anyone is not using. And we cannot be sure which individuals are being cheated against, or if any are at all.

That's just wonderful. To make it "OK" for one guy to do drugs, we're going to say everyone else does it too. Fairly misleading. What other fighters do is irrelevant to the choices a single fighter makes for himself. Just because subpar heavweights today don't feel like training but rather rely on enhancing drugs, just because Tommy Morrison or Holyfield made wrong decisions with steroids, does not equate that Muhammad Ali did the same. It is an individual matter. Top tier heavyweights like Muhammad Ali or George Foreman or Mike Tyson who trained like spartans (it takes a LOT of determination and will to train like the way these guys did AT some point in careers (Tyson not so much after Holy 2) and so one should be considerate about it) and probably did not rely on drugs.

[Sonny's jab]

I see you're being sarcastic.

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm being 100% straight.

It's not good to discredit a fighter for no reason.

I haven't discredited anyone.

We've kept Holy and Tyson in different boats for good reason (and with Tyson rightfully getting the short end of the stick). However, in this case, don't throw Tyson into this mess just because Holy tangled in it.

I dont know what you mean.
My first post in this thread actually asks why Holyfield has been singled out.
I throw up names of fighters who have more evidence against them that they used steroids (eg. Klitschko, Toney who failed tests. Morrison, who 100% admitted to it) and the name of Tyson, whose avoidance of a test (if I'm not mistaken) would be seen as "damning evidence" if it were Holyfield who had done so.

There are plenty of logical indicators that Holyfield did steroids and that is what started this thread.

The "logical indicators" usually spouted here are the fact that he put on some muscle.
I dont find that line of argument convincing. The facts show his muscle gain was rather modest compared to the possibilities drugs would provide, and that he has stayed at 215-220 pounds at a height of almost 6'3 for many years now. He's hardly using the steroids to pile on the size.

The most convincing "logical indicator" that he used drugs for strength and power are the fact that he is an ELITE HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER.
In a sport where - and at a level where - an opponent having "an edge" over you might result in you being decapitated by his punches then it makes sense to use these drugs that provide an extra degree of the necessary stuff (speed, power, aggression, strength) - however tiny - and aid training, recovery, and injury prevention.
Like taking vitamin C or getting 9 hours sleep instead of 6, an elite champion will be look to drugs to aid him in his preparation. I dont see why not.
The "moral crusade" against steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs doesn't tend to extend to the lives of professional athletes themselves, nor really to anyone who actually has a clue about what these drugs are. Professional users in sports like boxing are rarely the stereotypical abusers of the tabloid mind.

I doubt that Tyson consiously avoided the random drug tests for fear of growth hormones or steroids. He probably wanted to avoid drug tests in GENERAL (or rather this managers) because it was clear he did all sorts of recreational drugs. He isn't attentive enough to single out specifically steroids but probably drugs in general (perhaps one test could indicate something funny (as your body is an integated system) and then they do official tests for other stuff like recreational drugs and then Tyson gets in trouble).

Isn't this exactly what I was alluding to, and you asked me why I mentioned it ?
On my re-iterating these sentiments, you thought I was being sarcastic.

I'm not stating his probable motives either way here, since I believe he was possibly taking both recreational drugs and steroids. Or maybe he was clean and just couldn't be fussed to piss in a bottle for Razor ruddock. I dont know.


It is well known that Tyson was naturally a heavyweight. The same cannot be said of Holyfield.

Holyfield bulked up with weight training. With or without steroids I KNOW his weight increase is possible either way, certainly for a man of blessed athletic genetics.
People who think 20 or 30 pounds of muscle on a man of that size frame is a SURE INDICATOR of steroid abuse are very much under-estimating the possibilities of steroids as well as under-estimating the possibilities of "natural" bodybuilding methods.


Tyson made a lot of mistakes, messed up a lot in boxing, but steroids I doubt was one of them. Speak of it only if there is concrete proof - else it is slander. You wouldn't want someone to start speculating that you have explosives in your house w/o any basis, would you? It could get you into a lot of trouble. There is no evidence that Mike Tyson ever used performance enhancing drugs. He has displayed the same physical attributes i.e. punching power, speed, etc. since he was a teenager.


I think most elite heavyweights use steroids.
I dont think steroid use is a crime akin to possessing explosives. I think steroid use is part of the job.

Tyson's attributes are certainly not the result of steroid use. But I see no reason why he would balk at using a drug that would aid him in training recovery and maintain or boost that god-given power, esp. after the loss to Douglas spelled out the fact that he was not out of reach from his peers.

I dont mean to slur Tyson. I am not anti-steroids. I think steroids are a FACT in pro sports, esp. at the elite levels. Therefore I dont think my stating my belief that Tyson used is out of line. I might be wrong. It makes little difference to me.

Interestingly enough, Tyson is one of the few people I would be inclined to believe if he said he never used steroids. He strikes me as very honest and has no goody image to uphold and has laid bare fair more personal insights in his time. If Lennox or Holyfield said they never used steroids I'd have heard nothing, but Tyson I'd perhaps believe.

[Sonny's jab]

That's just wonderful. To make it "OK" for one guy to do drugs, we're going to say everyone else does it too. Fairly misleading. What other fighters do is irrelevant to the choices a single fighter makes for himself. Just because subpar heavweights today don't feel like training but rather rely on enhancing drugs, just because Tommy Morrison or Holyfield made wrong decisions with steroids, does not equate that Muhammad Ali did the same. It is an individual matter. Top tier heavyweights like Muhammad Ali or George Foreman or Mike Tyson who trained like spartans (it takes a LOT of determination and will to train like the way these guys did AT some point in careers (Tyson not so much after Holy 2) and so one should be considerate about it) and probably did not rely on drugs.

Of course they didn't "rely" on drugs.
Drugs are just a very small part of preparation. And not everyone does drugs.

What exactly is your problem ?
You state that Evander Holyfield used steroids ("wrong decisions" ) but then you object to me pointing out that drugs tests cannot prove fighters do NOT use drugs.

Evander Holyfield has passed drugs tests for 20 years or so. He's never failed a drugs test. Who in the heavyweight division today has passed more drugs tests over as many years without failure ?

But you and I both say (or strongly suspect) that Holyfield used steroids. So how can you argue with my point about tests ?

[hobgoblin]

I'll get back to you later - I'm buzzed from the hookah and in no mood to think. Apparently you've laid out an intelligently specific response. In a nutshell, I have a problem with someone saying Tyson took steroids. I don't believe it. I'll edit this post later.