Cuevas and his winning streak...

[Russell]

Can anyone compare to it, stats wise?

"With fourteen of his wins coming by clean ten counts, he also managed to successfully defend his title eleven times with ten knockouts. Also, Cuevas fought the best opposition available at the time, accumulating his extraordinary title record against opponents with a combined record of 505-70-29, a total greater than that of Sugar Ray Leonard, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Carmen Basilio, Sugar Ray Robinson, Carlos Palomino, Oscar De La Hoya, Pernell Whitaker, Buddy McGirt, or Simon Brown. Not bad for a guy who turned pro at fourteen!"

550-70-29. That's pretty insane.

Has anyone else put together title defenses with higher numbers than Cuevas?

Chesar Chavez had to of had a pretty amazing record defending some of his titles...

[jackiebrown]

boxrec hero! hes got stars in his eyyyes .

boxrec hero!.. he took one website!

boxrec hero! .. he took one website!

boxrec hero! .. he'll come aliiive !

[Asterion]

Yeah, it was a good streak. Shame that the rest of his career was disgraceful.

[Russell]

Disgraceful?

I really wouldn't call anyones career disgraceful after what Cuevas accomplished in the span of a few years when he was at his peak.

Guy turned pro when he was 14. He was burnt out after less than a decade.

[Russell]

Top...

[la-califa]

He does hold the record for Most Consecutive Title defenses won by Knockout (Ten). Considering all of the great Welterweight Champions, That is nothing to sneeze at! Pus a couple of Broken jaws along the way!

[bumdujour]

so??? great numbers.........but what about substance????

remember guys like old buck smith did great numbers.........but dont call the hall for that!!!

look at the fighters:angel espada was ordinary. guys like scott clark were bums.
miguel angel campanino.......an argie with great numbers, but who did he beat?????
billy buckus was shot shitless.

pete ranzany was probably the best opponent.

so great numbers in other words mean jack shit.

[Raging B(_)LL]

so??? great numbers.........but what about substance???? so great numbers in other words mean jack shit.


Not necessarily, although I agree with you to an extent. Pipino`s opponents during his title reign weren`t HOF`ers, but they weren`t all bums either and he could only fight what was put in front of him. Ten consecutive knockout victory`s in title fights is nothing to sneeze at unless your opponents were completely inept, which in Pipinos case they weren`t. Add the fact that the manner in which he dispatched them was usually in devastating fashion and you have yourself a HOFer candidate.

Cuevas wasn`t a great fighter per se, but I do think on his best night he would be competitive with just about anyone and I don`t see too many fomer welterweight champions before and after Cuevas who could have dispatched his opponents during his title reign in the same devastating fashion and early the way he did. Pipino was exciting, packed and al-time great punch in his left hook and actually won and defended his title 11 times, ten by KO... to me that is enough to get him into the HOF.

[bumdujour]

Not necessarily, although I agree with you to an extent. Pipino`s opponents during his title reign weren`t HOF`ers, but they weren`t all bums either and he could only fight what was put in front of him. Ten consecutive knockout victory`s in title fights is nothing to sneeze at unless your opponents were completely inept, which in Pipinos case they weren`t. Add the fact that the manner in which he dispatched them was usually in devastating fashion and you have yourself a HOFer candidate.

Cuevas wasn`t a great fighter per se, but I do think on his best night he would be competitive with just about anyone and I don`t see too many fomer welterweight champions before and after Cuevas who could have dispatched his opponents during his title reign in the same devastating fashion and early the way he did. Pipino was exciting, packed and al-timfe great punch in his left hook nd actually won and defended his title 11 times, ten by KO... to me that is enough to get him into the HOF.


but is that enough?? you cant forget that when he came up against a great fighter..........he choked.

if he had given hearns any type of fight, i would be temped to agree with you on the hof opinion.

but he got blown away as if he were a clubfighter.

and while he was exciting, that alone doesnt mean much.

his opponents were also somewhat suitable for his style. before hearns, his opponents were usually just mediocre punchers at best.
that is why imo he was able to just walk in and wing hooks..........that is easy if aint got much firepower coming back at you.

so in my opinion, his opponents had alot to do with him looking so good.

when he faced a puncher, he couldnt fight his usual style. and got blown away like a cubcake.

so had he at least blow away some good hitters, like say simon brown, tyrone trice, vernon forrest, yori boy campas, james page, vernon forrest, kermit cintron etc.......my opinion may be different.

and that is why i doubt he would have been competative with most of the great welter champs. lots would have just walked right through him.

all in all, he was a very good fighter. but his number of title defenses and his spectacular wins had alot to do with matchmaking and not so much with his ability.

[Russell]

Hearns blew Duran out.

It's really pretty irrelevant what he failed to do after what he did accomplish during his extremely short peak.

[Raging B(_)LL]

[quote]but is that enough?? you cant forget that when he came up against a great fighter..........he choked.

I wouldn`t go as far as saying that Pipino choked against Hearns, I mean he got stopped in two rounds for pete`s sake! Had he gone into a defensive shell for several rounds without mounting any kind of offense before getting taken out, I would agree but that is not what happened. He got caught with a big shot early and went down hard, and his corner threw in the towel after he got up.


if he had given hearns any type of fight, i would be temped to agree with you on the hof opinion.

So just because he got blown out in two rounds by Hearns that means that everything else he accomplished goes right out the window? Sorry, but I can`t agree with you there, not at all.

His record of consecutive KO`s over some good fighters alone gets him into the HOF in my opinion, as no other weltwerweight champion before or after him has managed to accomplish what he did.

One could assume that some other welterweights could have done the same had they faced Pipino`s opposition, but we will never know and as it stands he is the only one who accomplished what he did and that has to account for something.


but he got blown away as if he were a clubfighter.

Well, Duran got blown out in two rounds as well like a mere clubfighter as you so succintly put it, but that doesn`t make Duran a clubfighter though now does it?


and while he was exciting, that alone doesnt mean much

I disagree, I think it does. While the HOF should be reserved only for the cream of the crop in my opinion, I have no qualms with letting in fighters who while they may not have been great per se, they were so entertaining and fun to watch that they do belong there as they brought so much excitement to the sport. It is called the boxing Hall of FAME after all, and Pipino sure was famous for his KO`s and the brutal way in which he dispatched his opponents.


his opponents were also somewhat suitable for his style. before hearns, his opponents were usually just mediocre punchers at best.that is why imo he was able to just walk in and wing hooks..........that is easy if aint got much firepower coming back at you.

I disagree, suitable opponents for his style would have been stationary fighters looking to stand and trade with Pipino, and that wasn`t the case with ANY of his title reign opponents. None of them stood their ground and traded with the man as that would have been suicide, but it did not matter as Pipino just walked them down and took them out anyways.

He walked in and winged hooks because that was his style, he would never turn into a boxer-puncher and bounce around the ring on his toes. Pipino fought the way that best suited his attributes, and it made him become the only fighter to hold the distinction of having ten consecutive knockout victory`s in his title reign... not too shabby if you ask me.


so in my opinion, his opponents had alot to do with him looking so good.

Again I disagree, I think he looked good because he blew his opponents away in highlight reel fashion and he did that because he walked them down, took the best they had to offer and then crushed them into helpless heaps of broken bones and minds.


when he faced a puncher, he couldnt fight his usual style. and got blown away like a cubcake.

To be fair, Hearns is one of the all-time great punchers the welterweight division has ever seen, so getting stopped by him is not exactly something to be ashamed of. He was slipping all over the ring in their fight as well and couldn`t plant his feet or get set to unload his bombs, and this certainly didn`t help him any. Mind you I will concede that he was intimidated by Hearns, but that doesn`t mean that had he landed his sunday best that he wouldn`t have crushed Hearns like all the others.


so had he at least blow away some good hitters, like say simon brown, tyrone trice, vernon forrest, yori boy campas, james page, vernon forrest, kermit cintron etc.......my opinion may be different.

Well, unfortunately none of the fighters you listed were fighting at the time that Pipino was champion. But I can confidently say that Pipino would have definately stopped Campas as well as Cintron, and Forrest and Trice would have likely been stopped as well. Trice did fade late in many of his fights, and should that happen against Cuevas there is no way he hears the final bell.


and that is why i doubt he would have been competative with most of the great welter champs. lots would have just walked right through him.

Nobody walks through someone with the power Cuevas had, and I do mean no one. You didn`t go to him looking to trade and expect to walk away a winner, you would have to keep your distance and look for the opening to land the big punch just like Hearns did. Walk straight to him looking to exchange punch for punch and even the most iron chinned of fighters in the welterweight division would be stopped eventually. Pipino was the bull and you had to be a matador to beat him, and if you had the big punch to go along with it then you could take him out.



all in all, he was a very good fighter. but his number of title defenses and his spectacular wins had alot to do with matchmaking and not so much with his ability.


Again I disagree, but I`ve already explained why on this particular topic so I won`t be bothered to repeat myself again.

[TBooze]

550-70-29. That's pretty insane.

Has anyone else put together title defenses with higher numbers than Cuevas?




To start of with looking at boxrec I reckon it is only 515 wins combined in the 13 fights. Tommy Loughran is up there with only 5 defences; Marciano beats them numbers with his six defences; Joe Louis first 13 opponents in World Championship fights had a combined 775 wins... I suspect there are many more who can compete with Cuevas numbers.

[quintonjacksonfan]

3 of those 10 knockouts were against Espada. I wonder how Espada got so many opportunities in such a short time

[bumdujour]

[quote=Raging B(_)LL][quote=bumdujour]



I wouldn`t go as far as saying that Pipino choked against Hearns, I mean he got stopped in two rounds for pete`s sake! Had he gone into a defensive shell for several rounds without mounting any kind of offense before getting taken out, I would agree but that is not what happened. He got caught with a big shot early and went down hard, and his corner threw in the towel after he got up.




So just because he got blown out in two rounds by Hearns that means that everything else he accomplished goes right out the window? Sorry, but I can`t agree with you there, not at all.

His record of consecutive KO`s over some good fighters alone gets him into the HOF in my opinion, as no other weltwerweight champion before or after him has managed to accomplish what he did.

One could assume that some other welterweights could have done the same had they faced Pipino`s opposition, but we will never know and as it stands he is the only one who accomplished what he did and that has to account for something.




Well, Duran got blown out in two rounds as well like a mere clubfighter as you so succintly put it, but that doesn`t make Duran a clubfighter though now does it?




I disagree, I think it does. While the HOF should be reserved only for the cream of the crop in my opinion, I have no qualms with letting in fighters who while they may not have been great per se, they were so entertaining and fun to watch that they do belong there as they brought so much excitement to the sport. It is called the boxing Hall of FAME after all, and Pipino sure was famous for his KO`s and the brutal way in which he dispatched his opponents.




I disagree, suitable opponents for his style would have been stationary fighters looking to stand and trade with Pipino, and that wasn`t the case with ANY of his title reign opponents. None of them stood their ground and traded with the man as that would have been suicide, but it did not matter as Pipino just walked them down and took them out anyways.

He walked in and winged hooks because that was his style, he would never turn into a boxer-puncher and bounce around the ring on his toes. Pipino fought the way that best suited his attributes, and it made him become the only fighter to hold the distinction of having ten consecutive knockout victory`s in his title reign... not too shabby if you ask me.




Again I disagree, I think he looked good because he blew his opponents away in highlight reel fashion and he did that because he walked them down, took the best they had to offer and then crushed them into helpless heaps of broken bones and minds.




To be fair, Hearns is one of the all-time great punchers the welterweight division has ever seen, so getting stopped by him is not exactly something to be ashamed of. He was slipping all over the ring in their fight as well and couldn`t plant his feet or get set to unload his bombs, and this certainly didn`t help him any. Mind you I will concede that he was intimidated by Hearns, but that doesn`t mean that had he landed his sunday best that he wouldn`t have crushed Hearns like all the others.




Well, unfortunately none of the fighters you listed were fighting at the time that Pipino was champion. But I can confidently say that Pipino would have definately stopped Campas as well as Cintron, and Forrest and Trice would have likely been stopped as well. Trice did fade late in many of his fights, and should that happen against Cuevas there is no way he hears the final bell.




Nobody walks through someone with the power Cuevas had, and I do mean no one. You didn`t go to him looking to trade and expect to walk away a winner, you would have to keep your distance and look for the opening to land the big punch just like Hearns did. Walk straight to him looking to exchange punch for punch and even the most iron chinned of fighters in the welterweight division would be stopped eventually. Pipino was the bull and you had to be a matador to beat him, and if you had the big punch to go along with it then you could take him out.




Again I disagree, but I`ve already explained why on this particular topic so I won`t be bothered to repeat myself again.[/quo

well, i didnt see him go right at hearns!! why was he intimidated??? sure, there may have been something wrong with his boots (kinda convinient for him in retrospect), but it is easier to stand and trade then to run around the ring in such boots!!

so who says he wouldnt have been intimidated by say........a murderous puncher like trice??? or simon brown??

i say he was just a bully. if he knew he wasnt facing a puncher, he walked you down.

and that is the problem. none of the guys he faced ever presented that danger. not during his reign.

only after the hearns loss he faced guys like a faded duran and herman montes........and he got put away again. sure, he was faded.......again, very convinient for him.

so this is the problem: WE JUST DONT KNOW!!! and the only hits i get from his career is that he was indeed a bully who would not have fared well against other big punchers. why a bully??? as you pointed out, he was intimidated by hearns.

warriors dont get intimidated when faced with a puncher. bullies do.......and start running. as he did.

and you saying or "guaranteeing" that he would stop guys like campas, forrest etc........well that is not a very bright argument cause all you can do is guess.
who says he would not have run away from forrest the way he did from hearns???
who says cuevas chin would have stood up under a right hand from trice. or a hook by campas???
WE JUST DONT KNOW!! he never fought such fighters.

and that cant be ruled in his favour.

personally, i think a guy like jose luis lopez would have put him away.

and you pointing to entertainment value as a factor for hof worthyness.........i couldnt disagree more.

cause then you would have to throw in the likes of mickey ward and emanuel augustus as well. not to forget butterbean.

[Raging B(_)LL]

[QUOTE]well, i didnt see him go right at hearns!! why was he intimidated??? sure, there may have been something wrong with his boots (kinda convinient for him in retrospect), but it is easier to stand and trade then to run around the ring in such boots!!

There is a reason why Pipino was intimidated by Hearns and it is already well documented and has been discussed before on this site so I won`t address it again. As for why Pipino didn`t fight his usual style and opted to try and box Hearns that has also been discussed before.

so who says he wouldnt have been intimidated by say........a murderous puncher like trice??? or simon brown??

Neither Trice or Brown had the physical dimensions of Thomas Hearns, so I don`t think he would have been afraid of them at all. Neither man had Tommy`s boxing ability and power along with his advantages in height and reach, which were the main attributes of Tommy`s that Cuevas was intimidated by come fight time.

i say he was just a bully. if he knew he wasnt facing a puncher, he walked you down.

Your entitled to your opinion, but I disagree, lets just leave it at that.

and that is the problem. none of the guys he faced ever presented that danger. not during his reign.

Same as above.

only after the hearns loss he faced guys like a faded duran and herman montes........and he got put away again. sure, he was faded.......again, very convinient for him.

Well, I don`t think it can be denied that he was past it by the time of those fights, unless you are trying to claim otherwise. He did begin his pro career at the age of 14 after all, so it is hardly surprising that he burnt it rather quickly, especially considering his style which saw him get hit a lot.

so this is the problem: WE JUST DONT KNOW!!! and the only hits i get from his career is that he was indeed a bully who would not have fared well against other big punchers. why a bully??? as you pointed out, he was intimidated by hearns.

A lot of fighters were intimidated by Hearns, and fought merely to survive to hear the final bell and Pipino was one of them. So the man wasn`t fearless, but again I ask you how does this make him a bully? Even Ray Leonard was intimidated by Tommy the first time around until he realised that he could hurt him, and I don`t know anyone who would say that Ray was a bully.


warriors dont get intimidated when faced with a puncher. bullies do.......and start running. as he did.

I disagree, and will leave it at that.


and you saying or "guaranteeing" that he would stop guys like campas, forrest etc........well that is not a very bright argument cause all you can do is guess.
who says he would not have run away from forrest the way he did from hearns???
who says cuevas chin would have stood up under a right hand from trice. or a hook by campas???
WE JUST DONT KNOW!! he never fought such fighters.

I didn`t say that I guarantee that Cuevas would have stopped them. What I did say however was that I confidently pick Cuevas to stop Campas who had no defence to speak of and who liked to stand and trade. Against Cuevas this would see him getting stopped within 4 rounds at best, and Trice did fade late in many of his bouts and if this were to happen to him against Cuevas I think he would get stopped as well. Now I did not say this was a fact, all I said was that I believed the fights would have unfolded as I described them, nothing more.

Now Cuevas may not have faced that caliber of puncher in his career, but I do believe that he had a good chin as he did absorb some serious leather in many of his bouts, and took the punches well. I don`t think that had he fought a Trice or Campas that all of a sudden once they connected on him that he would go down and out for the count. If you believe that then fair play to you, but I disagree.


personally, i think a guy like jose luis lopez would have put him away.

Lopez was a good fighter and may well have beaten Pipino, but I wouldn`t go as far as you and say that it is a definate outcome. Lopez could be lazy at times and was somewhat erratic, if he comes in at anything less than 100% for Cuevas he is in for a loong night.


and you pointing to entertainment value as a factor for hof worthyness.........i couldnt disagree more. cause then you would have to throw in the likes of mickey ward and emanuel augustus as well. not to forget butterbean.

Ward and Augustus never became champions though did they? Pipino on the other hand did and blew his competition away in spectacular fashion, something neither of the aforementioned fighters ever came close to achieving.

A fighter can get into the hall IMO if he was entertaining AND accomplished something of note as well, in which case Pipino fits the bill as he was a legitimate champion with 11 defenses of his title, ten of which came by way of KO in consecutive bouts.

No one else has done this at welterweight in boxing`s history, and that alone as well as his crowd pleasing style earns him the right to be in there in my opinion. Pipino wasn`t a great fighter, but what he did accomplish considering his limitations is impressive if you ask me.

[Drew101]

The nice thing about Pipino's title reign was that, for the most part, the really good legitimate contenders were dealt with just as conclusively as the also-rans. Harold Weston was legitimate, and had his jaw broken. Pete Ranzany was legit, and was stopped in two. Miguel Campanino probably wasn't as good as his record indicates, but he wasn't bad, and hadn't been stopped prior to meeting Cuevas. Clyde Gray was on the slide, but still viable, and he lasted all of two rounds.

Cuevas was a legitimate power-puncher, and his title run was pretty damned good, all things considered. That, in turn, makes the manner in which he was dispatched by Hearns that much more impressive.

[la-califa]

Alot of questions have been brought up as to Cuevas' cometition. But who else was there? Cuevas ducked noone. In fact most fighters were reluctant to fight him. If Napoles hung on for another year, he most likely wouldn't have had the skills left to outbox Cuevas & stay away from the hammer blows. Stracey would have been competitive, but he could not have kept Cuevas off either. Armando Muniz would have been an excellent match if he challenged for the WBA title instead of the WBC. Which leavs Palomino, This was a natural. But for some reason it never came off. But Cuevas was all for the proposed unification match. Also Antonio Cervantes could have moved up to challenge Cuevas, but chose not to. And on a last note In Cuevas' first post Hearns fight in Los Angeles, He challenged Bernardo Prado, Who at the time was one of the biggest punchers in the Division, And Cuevas knocked him out in Two rounds.