Did Marcanio duck Patterson?

[Russell]

Or avoid him in some way?

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?

Just wasn't worth the risk at that point in his career?

[tays001]

no simple

[Russell]

Educated answer there, folks. :)

[Dempsey1238]

Patterson was not even in the top ten when Marciano retire in April of 56. It just seem Patterson came out of no were the movement the Rock retire, winning the tourment and beating Archie for the title.

[Ted Stickles]

Rockys brother Lou told me that Rocky was offered a lot of money to come out of retirement and fight Patterson and was seriously considering it until he got Ko'd by Johansen .Then he started to train for possibly challenging Johansen but that he just couldnt get into it like he used to he said he remembers his brother saying that even the odor of the gyms bothered him now.

[apollack]

Rocky would have KO'd Patterson. Floyd would have hit him a lot no doubt, but when Rocky finally hit that jaw it would be good night.

[fists of fury]

No.

As Dempsey1238 has stated, Floyd was not even a ranked contender when Marciano retired.
Incidentally, Rocky was offered 1.4 million to come out of retirement to fight Johansson, and for a while Rocky liked the idea.
He started losing weight and got back into the gym like the old days. He kept this up for about a month or so before calling it off. There are two versions of the story as to why he did so.

One is that Rocky's various business interests got in the way, and his interest in the fight petered out.
The other version, and probably the most realistic one, was that Marciano realised he simply didn't have it anymore and gave up the idea.

Even Marciano's retirement is shrouded in some mystery. Some say he retired because the daily grind of training was starting to get to him. He began to dislike the smell of the gym, and he stopped taking his walks in the evening as he always used to do without fail.
Charlie Goldman said to him one day "Rock, you're looking bloated lately." to which Marciano replied "I am Charlie, and I'm not walking anymore either." According to Goldman, he knew then and there that Marciano's desire had started to leave him.

Another story is that Rocky had been considering retirement for a while, and had discussions about it with his wife and family. Immediately after his fight with Moore, Rocky announced that he would fight on. However, he went on vacation to South America with his wife, and on returning changed his mind.

Lastly, some say that he retired in order to get out of the clutches of Al Weill, his domineering manager. Rocky had developed a burning resentment against Weill for being an obsessive control freak (Weill once even ordered Rocky to buy him a packet of cigars in front of a reporter) and for skimming some extra off the top of Marciano's purses.

Whichever version is correct, Marciano didn't retire to avoid Floyd Patterson.

[ChrisPontius]

Given Pattersons choice of opponents when he was champion and still with D'Amato, i'd say it would've been the other way around.

[KTFO]

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?




Yes. Marciano preferred fighting old men instead of gettin KOed as an old mummy.
Patterson was an interesting prospect in '55, one year later he even KOed Archie Moore in 5. Marciano needed 9 rounds to kill the oldtimer.
Floyd would've KTFOed Marciano within 8 rounds.

[Sweet Science]

Yes. Marciano preferred fighting old men instead of gettin KOed as an old mummy.
Patterson was an interesting prospect in '55, one year later he even KOed Archie Moore in 5. Marciano needed 9 rounds to kill the oldtimer.
Floyd would've KTFOed Marciano within 8 rounds.

Your post is pretty funny. Only for all the wrong reasons.

[KTFO]

You're post is pretty funny. Only for all the wrong reasons.



:blood

[Luigi1985]

:blood


He´s totally right...

[KTFO]

He´s totally right...



Yes,Marciano ducked Patterson.

[fists of fury]

Floyd would've KTFOed Marciano within 8 rounds.

With a shotgun maybe.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano didn´t duck Patterson, when Rocky retired, Floyd was only a prospect, if he would have fought him at that point, everyone would say now that he fought a kiddie...

btw, Marciano is for Floyd a very bad matchup, he is the one who would get KTFO...

[Mendoza]

When a in-fighter / swarmer loses his passion to box its over. I suspect this is the true reason.

[mcvey]

Or avoid him in some way?

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?

Just wasn't worth the risk at that point in his career?
No but he was terrified of Tommy Hurricane Jackson.

[fists of fury]

I heard he was shit scared of facing Bob Baker as well.

[Luigi1985]

I heard he was shit scared of facing Bob Baker as well.


I hope it´s irony... :D

[fists of fury]

More sarcasm. :deal

[Luigi1985]

More sarcasm. :deal

:lol:


Hard to say when it´s irony or sarcasm for me, especially in English...

:thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

But serious now guys, why always the hate for Marciano? Everyday I´m on ESB I see another Anti- Marciano- threads, why doesn´t he get the respect he deserves? I mean, fighters like Ali get also the respect they deserve, they´re getting even so many "promotion" from some groupies here that the "mid-60s"- Ali is untouchable for example, I don´t get it... :think

[KTFO]

Everyday I´m on ESB I see another Anti- Marciano- threads, why doesn´t he get the respect he deserves?



Because he does not deserve it. That's the point.

[Luigi1985]

Because he does not deserve it. That's the point.


Undefeated in 49 pro fights, 43 KO´s, he didn´t need judges like most of ATG´s to win some of his fights, he defeated many HOF´s who weren´t peak but almost as in good shape as in their prime, KO´d anyone during his title reign, he was outside the ring really friendly and so on, IMO he deserves it, KTFO, I know what´s your problem with him, the 183 lbs and his skin colour...

[KTFO]

I know what´s your problem with him, the 183 lbs and his skin colour...


OMG,stupidity can't get worse.....:patsch

[fists of fury]

But serious now guys, why always the hate for Marciano? Everyday I´m on ESB I see another Anti- Marciano- threads, why doesn´t he get the respect he deserves? I mean, fighters like Ali get also the respect they deserve, they´re getting even so many "promotion" from some groupies here that the "mid-60s"- Ali is untouchable for example, I don´t get it... :think

Good question.

Mostly, it's plain ignorance.

[fists of fury]

Because he does not deserve it. That's the point.

Care to elaborate?

[Luigi1985]

OMG,stupidity can't get worse.....:patsch


No, I´m not the only one who thinks so, some fighters are hyped up unbelievable although the had very much luck in their careers, some strange decision wins, outside the ring they were often dumbasses, but they´re hyped, Marciano is hated by many because he´s undefeated in all of his pro fights, he was not a big and heavy loudmouth, and he was Italian- American...


like I wrote, not only my opinion...


and don´t wrote always such a bullshit when you don´t know what logical stuff you can respond, OK?

[Bummy Davis]

Good question.

Mostly, it's plain ignorance.



TRUE, and Where else could this disrespect posibly come from,Look at his picture and see who he ADORES,PPF, do you think race has something to so with it

[Bummy Davis]

Cus Dmato said he would have not fought heavyweight until Marciano retired, but Floyd had just lost a disputed decision to Joey Maxim, he was not close to a Marciano fight. Floyd would have been a perfect kill for Rocky

[ron u.k.]

No, I´m not the only one who thinks so, some fighters are hyped up unbelievable although the had very much luck in their careers, some strange decision wins, outside the ring they were often dumbasses, but they´re hyped, Marciano is hated by many because he´s undefeated in all of his pro fights, he was not a big and heavy loudmouth, and he was Italian- American...


like I wrote, not only my opinion...


and don´t wrote always such a bullshit when you don´t know what logical stuff you can respond, OK?your italianess is clouding your judgement

[Luigi1985]

Cus Dmato said he would have not fought heavyweight until Marciano retired, but Floyd had just lost a disputed decision to Joey Maxim, he was not close to a Marciano fight. Floyd would have been a perfect kill for Rocky


Right, that´s a well-known fact, but the Marciano haters don´t believe/ see it because of their hate...

Marciano retired, because he knew he wouldn´t have a chance against the iron chinned pitbull Floyd was (especially at that point, he was a teeny)

[KTFO]

Undefeated in 49 pro fights, 43 KO´s, he didn´t need judges like most of ATG´s to win some of his fights, he defeated many HOF´s who weren´t peak but almost as in good shape as in their prime, KO´d anyone during his title reign, he was outside the ring really friendly and so on, IMO he deserves it



Most of you guys complain about fighters who handpick their opponents.
It's a phenom that noone mentions those 49 handpicked opponents.
Marciano is the paradigm of handpicking opponents.
You're biased,that's all.

[Luigi1985]

your italianess is clouding your judgement


What has Italianess to do with that? Is boying now a teamsport? Btw, I read never comments of you, only when you "attack" me with some brilliant parols about Italians and so on, what have we done to you, has your wife left you because of an Italian or what?

[Luigi1985]

Most of you guys complain about fighters who handpick their opponents.
It's a phenom that noone mentions those 49 handpicked opponents.
Marciano is the paradigm of handpicking opponents.
You're biased,that's all.


You´re biased, I´m not. Even fighters I don´t like that much, I try (and I make it) to give them the respect they deserve. He didn´t handpick his opponents, he fought the best who were in that era, who else should he have fought? Don´t come now with names like Valdes...

[fists of fury]

Most of you guys complain about fighters who handpick their opponents.
It's a phenom that noone mentions those 49 handpicked opponents.
Marciano is the paradigm of handpicking opponents.
You're biased,that's all.

Rocky fought handpicked opponents at times sure, but who hasn't? Every young kid needs to learn, doesn't he? At the end of the day, he beat all the guys that they put in front of him.

Who would you have him fight to sway your opinion?

[Luigi1985]

It´s always the same, when some idiots (luckily only few here on ESB) don´t have logical arguments anymore, they come with stuff like "You´re Italian", "you´re biased" and bullshit like this...

[KTFO]

Floyd had just lost a disputed decision to Joey Maxim, he was not close to a Marciano fight. Floyd would have been a perfect kill for Rocky


Bullshit. Maxim had a different style. Floyd killed Archie Moore in '56. Marciano's style was made for Patterson. Patterson KO8 Marciano in '56 or '57.

[Luigi1985]

Bullshit. Maxim had a different style. Floyd killed Archie Moore in '56. Marciano's style was made for Patterson. Patterson KO8 Marciano in '56 or '57.

Floyd had at the best a mediocre chin, he was floored by fighters like Rademacher who hadn´t one single pro fight!!! And you can´t come with the weight shit now, who´s in reality only an advantage, because Floyd was also pretty small for a HW...

Even the biggest Ali-era nut hugger say that Patterson was tailor-made for Marciano...

[KTFO]

It´s always the same, when some idiots (luckily only few here on ESB) don´t have logical arguments anymore


You're confusing yourself prickhead. There are no logical arguments to praise the legacy of Rocky Marciano.

[Luigi1985]

You're confusing yourself prickhead. There are no logical arguments to praise the legacy of Rocky Marciano.


I don´t praise his career, I only give him the respect he deserves, like I do with every fighter, whether I like them or not...


it calls fairness, a noun you probably never heard...

[KTFO]

Even the biggest Ali-era nut hugger say that Patterson was tailor-made for Marciano


Marciano was a slow puncher. So was Moore. And we all know what Patterson did to Moore.

[KTFO]

I don´t praise his career



Pffffft,you're a Marciano-nuthugger.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano was a slow puncher. So was Moore. And we all know what Patterson did to Moore.


Look at yourself how stupid you are, you critizice Marciano for facing only old, washed up LHW´s, but now you brag with Patterson´s win over an even older Moore... woah, how logical!



btw, speed isn´t everything in boxing, otherwise the example (Patterson) we´re speaking about right now would have been almost unbeatable...

[Sweet Science]

I don´t praise his career, I only give him the respect he deserves, like I do with every fighter, whether I like them or not...


it calls fairness, a noun you probably never heard...

If the fight did take place.
Marciano would have most probably got to Patterson in the late rounds and knocked him out. Only after being thoroughly outclassed for the majority of the fight.

However, Luigi I do think you are very biased toward Marciano.
It's ok for you to bring up the race card and say "you guys dont like Marciano because he was a white Italian" etc. But when someone accuses you of being biased for Rocky due to your Italian heritage you don't like it. That's a good example of the pot calling the kettle black.

[KTFO]

Look at yourself how stupid you are, you critizice Marciano for facing only old, washed up LHW´s, but now you brag with Patterson´s win over an even older Moore... woah, how logical!


If you can't see the logic then you're more idiotic than I thought. Patterson beat an old Moore in 5 rounds,Marciano beat an old Moore in 9 rounds. Any questions?



btw, speed isn´t everything in boxing, otherwise the example (Patterson) we´re speaking about right now would have been almost unbeatable...


But it's very useful.

[Luigi1985]

If the fight did take place.
Marciano would have most probably got to Patterson in the late rounds and knocked him out. Only after being thoroughly outclassed for the majority of the fight.

However, Luigi I do think you are very biased toward Marciano.
It's ok for you to bring up the race card and say "you dont like Marciano because he was a white Italian" etc. But when someone accuses you of being biased for Rocky due to your Italian heritage you don't like it. That's a good example of the pot calling the kettle black.


You would be right, but not in this case, you don´t know perhaps the background story...


KTFO is a poster who wrote so much shit, and strangely enough almost about white fighters that it is a bit conspicuous, you know what I mean? In a thread some days ago, I read things like "Even Tye Fields would KO this bum in one round..." I would like to know for example if you ever read such a ridiculous post from me, or if I ever was very biased negative for a fighter...

[Luigi1985]

If you can't see the logic then you're more idiotic than I thought. Patterson beat an old Moore in 5 rounds,Marciano beat an old Moore in 9 rounds. Any questions?


Ali beat Wepner in 15 rounds, Bugner in 3. You know that Bugner is the better fighter...



How logical...

[fists of fury]

Floyd would be a straw hut in the path of Hurricane Rocky...

[Sweet Science]

You would be right, but not in this case, you don´t know perhaps the background story...


KTFO is a poster who wrote so much shit, and strangely enough almost about white fighters that it is a bit conspicuous, you know what I mean? In a thread some days ago, I read things like "Even Tye Fields would KO this bum in one round..." I would like to know for example if you ever read such a ridiculous post from me, or if I ever was very biased negative for a fighter...

Well obviously, I havn't been a member here for long and you have more experience than me, in terms of who has said what in the past.

I do understand your point of view. I have a healthy respect for Marciano and agree he is often underrated and sometimes in an unfair manner.

[Luigi1985]

Well obviously, I havn't been a member here for long and you have more experience than me, in terms of who has said what in the past.

I do understand your point of view. I have a healthy respect for Marciano and agree he is often underrated and sometimes in an unfair manner.


Yeah, you know, it´s not so that if you would for example Patterson favour in a fantasy matchup that I would respond with a sentence like "Hell no, my boy Marciano would kill him...", but if you come with illogical shit like KTFO ( Patterson KO´d Moore in 5 rounds, Marciano only in 9, Marciano was tailor-made for Floyd, Marciano doesn´t deserve respect, etc.) than it´s normal that my answers are also a bit harsh...

everyone has an own opinion, which I normally respect, but in KTFO´s case it´s crystal-clear, only that you know it...

[fists of fury]

Actually, most ringside reporters said the best, most complete version of Marciano they ever saw was against Archie Moore.

[Luigi1985]

Why does anyone bother with KTFO? He´s just a troll.

I don´t think Marciano ducked Patterson. Patterson was still to green to hang in there with Marciano, even while Marciano started to slip a bit.


Agreed. Btw, woher kommst du genau?

[Sweet Science]

Yeah, you know, it´s not so that if you would for example Patterson favour in a fantasy matchup that I would respond with a sentence like "Hell no, my boy Marciano would kill him...", but if you come with illogical shit like KTFO ( Patterson KO´d Moore in 5 rounds, Marciano only in 9, Marciano was tailor-made for Floyd, Marciano doesn´t deserve respect, etc.) than it´s normal that my answers are also a bit harsh...

everyone has an own opinion, which I normally respect, but in KTFO´s case it´s crystal-clear, only that you know it...

Fair enough Luigi. Point taken.

[Luigi1985]

Fair enough Luigi. Point taken.



:thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

Charlottenburg. Ursprünglich aber aus nem Ort in der Nähe vom Chiemsee.


Cool, wohne jetzt in München... :thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

Da bin ich immer noch so 2-3 mal im Jahr, Familie und Freunde besuchen.


Wie alt bist denn? Wennst nächstes Mal kommst, sagst Bescheid, dann treff ich mich mal mit nem Boxexperten von ESB, geh ma was saufen oder so, hab ich bislang noch nie... :D

[jowcol]

Rocky would have KO'd Patterson. Floyd would have hit him a lot no doubt, but when Rocky finally hit that jaw it would be good night.

When Floyd got hit with bombs (Liston, Ingo, etc...) it was NEVER "good night".
The bottom line is the Rock is an ATG but an early 57 matchup with Floyd would have to look at the very least interesting. And that Rademacher KD that everyone goes on about didn't even hurt Patterson. Pete was a big guy, 5 or 6 years older than Patterson and Floyd rose immediately and kicked his butt kicked plain and simple.
The Rock may well have gotten thru to a rather green Floyd at that time and stopped him (or decisioned him) with 2 or 3 knockdowns in the latter rounds but I could never envision this fight being as one-sided as so many are saying. And, by the way, I've never seen ANY 185 pound fighter turn Patterson to jelly. Could Floyd have cut up the aging Rock?
IMHO just a more interesting matchup than many seem to be suggesting.
My $0.02

P.S. of course you all know me as the resident Patterson nut-hugger...:D

[Luigi1985]

When Floyd got hit with bombs (Liston, Ingo, etc...) it was NEVER "good night".
The bottom line is the Rock is an ATG but an early 57 matchup with Floyd would have to look at the very least interesting. And that Rademacher KD that everyone goes on about didn't even hurt Patterson. Pete was a big guy, 5 or 6 years older than Patterson and Floyd rose immediately and kicked his butt kicked plain and simple.
The Rock may well have gotten thru to a rather green Floyd at that time and stopped him (or decisioned him) with 2 or 3 knockdowns in the latter rounds but I could never envision this fight being as one-sided as so many are saying. And, by the way, I've never seen ANY 185 pound fighter turn Patterson to jelly. Could Floyd have cut up the aging Rock?
IMHO just a more interesting matchup than many seem to be suggesting.
My $0.02

P.S. of course you all know me as the resident Patterson nut-hugger...:D

Good post, but it seems to be that you put also too much on the weight. "No 185 lbs. put him ...", as if the 206 lbs. Liston was that much more... :D

[Icemmann]

If you can't see the logic then you're more idiotic than I thought. Patterson beat an old Moore in 5 rounds,Marciano beat an old Moore in 9 rounds. Any questions?

And 40 years later Ali fought a 75 year old Moore for 6 rounds. Shit, that means Patterson would have dominated Ali, "The Greatest" was a joke.

Oh wait.





But it's very useful.


Anybody seen where my pills are?

[ron u.k.]

What has Italianess to do with that? Is boying now a teamsport? Btw, I read never comments of you, only when you "attack" me with some brilliant parols about Italians and so on, what have we done to you, has your wife left you because of an Italian or what?no such luck! calm down you are the one spouting race and being uptight.actually i like you as a poster even though at times you talk rubbish.

[Luigi1985]

no such luck! calm down you are the one spouting race and being uptight.actually i like you as a poster even though at times you talk rubbish.


But excuse me, I never read something from you here at the Classic Section, only when you attack me indirectly and say how stupid I´m. That´s why I respond a bit harsh to you, don´t take it personal, it´s a boxing forum...


well, because of the race, some posters, like KTFO in this case, make it to obviously, you know what I mean...

[Bill1234]

God...KTFO is an idiot. He knows nothing pre 2000. Marciano was an aging fighter when he fought Moore. Moore had great heart. He told the ref not to stop because he wanted to go down like a champion. And he did. Marciano didn't duck Patterson even the slightest bit. I saw some footage on a documentary on Marciano, of when Marciano retired. He said "My wife made me announce that I am retiring before May of this year..." That was on April 27th, 1956. Marciano in the Moore and Cockell fights, was much slower, and didn't have the work rate he once had. Charlie Goldman also changed his style a little bit. He knew that if he changed Marciano style a little, that Marciano wouldn't hit as hard, but he would be more awkward to hit. Also, about Marciano fighting hand picked oppenents, in the begining of his career he was fighting guys that were supposed to beat him. The promoter even admitted it. Marciano fought everyone, and he knocked them out.

[KTFO]

"The Greatest" was a joke.


Finally you got it!


And please, all those Marciano-nuthuggers who suffer from brain-damage because of drug-abuse........Fuck off!! :plzdie

[Bill1234]

Finally you got it!


And please, all those Marciano-nuthuggers who suffer from brain-damage because of drug-abuse........Fuck off!! :plzdie


LMAO. :rofl :rofl :rofl You know your in the complete minority here right? Your saying all but 2 are Marciano nut huggers just because we provide solid evidence and facts that Marciano didn't duck Patterson. You provide idiotic responces and posts that support your pointless and wrong idea.:silly

[ron u.k.]

But excuse me, I never read something from you here at the Classic Section, only when you attack me indirectly and say how stupid I´m. That´s why I respond a bit harsh to you, don´t take it personal, it´s a boxing forum...


well, because of the race, some posters, like KTFO in this case, make it to obviously, you know what I mean...i can't recall ever attacking you and inferring that your stupid,i've only hinted that i think your bias towards italian fighters. fair enough i suppose i've done it in a mischevious way,just a bit of fun that's all.also i post quite often and give opinions on many fighters in the classic section,you don't think i just come in here to wind you up do ya?now that is bordering on the paranoid.:-(

[KTFO]

LMAO. :rofl :rofl :rofl You know your in the complete minority here right? Your saying all but 2 are Marciano nut huggers just because we provide solid evidence and facts that Marciano didn't duck Patterson. You provide idiotic responces and posts that support your pointless and wrong idea.:silly


You don't provide solid evidence and facts. You stick to a 49-0 record that stiffens your little Willie apparantly.

[KTFO]

Wie alt bist denn? Wennst nächstes Mal kommst, sagst Bescheid, dann treff ich mich mal mit nem Boxexperten von ESB, geh ma was saufen oder so, hab ich bislang noch nie... :-D




Shut up,Kraut. :stfu

[joe33]

You don't provide solid evidence and facts. You stick to a 49-0 record that stiffens your little Willie apparantly.


Pretty good evidence then aint it,no one else has come close to that before,he would have strached patterson in 5 no fucking problem.
Any way just another hater of the rock who cant seem to see past him being a small funny looking WHITE MAN haha,dont worry mate,you can sleep well at night,hes dead now,tell your self that and all the pain of his wonderful record may just go away for you.:lol:

[C. M. Clay II]

He probably didn't. If they fought in 56, I think it would be a pickem. Marciano was slightly past it, and Patterson's KO of Moore was impressive. However, prime Marciano I think KO's Patterson in 13 rounds.:good

[Luigi1985]

Shut up,Kraut. :stfu



I´m Italian, but I speak also German, you racist dumbass...

[Marciano Frazier]

Or avoid him in some way?

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?

Just wasn't worth the risk at that point in his career? I'm going to make this brief: No.

[Marciano Frazier]

No.

As Dempsey1238 has stated, Floyd was not even a ranked contender when Marciano retired.
Incidentally, Rocky was offered 1.4 million to come out of retirement to fight Johansson, and for a while Rocky liked the idea.
He started losing weight and got back into the gym like the old days. He kept this up for about a month or so before calling it off. There are two versions of the story as to why he did so.

One is that Rocky's various business interests got in the way, and his interest in the fight petered out.
The other version, and probably the most realistic one, was that Marciano realised he simply didn't have it anymore and gave up the idea.

Even Marciano's retirement is shrouded in some mystery. Some say he retired because the daily grind of training was starting to get to him. He began to dislike the smell of the gym, and he stopped taking his walks in the evening as he always used to do without fail.
Charlie Goldman said to him one day "Rock, you're looking bloated lately." to which Marciano replied "I am Charlie, and I'm not walking anymore either." According to Goldman, he knew then and there that Marciano's desire had started to leave him.

Another story is that Rocky had been considering retirement for a while, and had discussions about it with his wife and family. Immediately after his fight with Moore, Rocky announced that he would fight on. However, he went on vacation to South America with his wife, and on returning changed his mind.

Lastly, some say that he retired in order to get out of the clutches of Al Weill, his domineering manager. Rocky had developed a burning resentment against Weill for being an obsessive control freak (Weill once even ordered Rocky to buy him a packet of cigars in front of a reporter) and for skimming some extra off the top of Marciano's purses.

Whichever version is correct, Marciano didn't retire to avoid Floyd Patterson. More or less all of those are true. There wasn't some one ultimate reason for him to retire, but lots of small factors contributing to it. One that you didn't mention was that, according to Everett M. Skehan's account, Marciano was having serious back problems at the time leading up to his retirement.

[Executioner]

He probably didn't. If they fought in 56, I think it would be a pickem. Marciano was slightly past it, and Patterson's KO of Moore was impressive. However, prime Marciano I think KO's Patterson in 13 rounds.:good

13??? Surely a prime Rock would crack that chin sooner. :yep

[Minotauro]

I don't believe that he did duck Floyd he was not a real contender at the time he just came good later. I've read that the plan was always for Floyd to fight at 175lbs and then eventually move up its just that when Marciano retired there was an opportunity and he took it remember Patterson won the Olympic gold at 160lbs.

Not to hijack the thread or anything but I always wondered if Joe Louis ducked Elmer Ray he as some solid win during Joe's title reign yet never got a title shot but people like Galento did.

[Bill1234]

You don't provide solid evidence and facts. You stick to a 49-0 record that stiffens your little Willie apparantly.

Your the first one to mention that this whole time. I guess it just pisses you off that a white guy holds the undefeated record, and beat some great black fighters.

[Bill1234]

Shut up,Kraut. :stfu

Fucking racist. :vonnecunt

[KTFO]

I´m Italian, but I speak also German, you racist dumbass...



Shut up, Cannelloni! :fuckoff

[C. M. Clay II]

13??? Surely a prime Rock would crack that chin sooner. :yep

Rocky couldn't crack Ezzard Charles' chin in 15, so it's not that hard to believe Patterson could last at least 13.:rolleyes:

[Bill1234]

Rocky couldn't crack Ezzard Charles' chin in 15, so it's not that hard to believe Patterson could last at least 13.:rolleyes:

He cracked it real good in 8 in the rematch though. Charles had a solid chin too.

[Bill1234]

Shut up, Cannelloni! :fuckoff

Shut up racist son of a bitch.:bart

[True Writer]

Marciano deserves more respect than he gets. Did he duck Patterson - No. If they had fought he would have KOed Patterson early, I've said it before and I'll say it again - Patterson's chin was up there with Herbie Hide & Bruce Seldon.

[True Writer]

Yeah he got knocked down 16 times - at least. That is a disaster, only Liston was a great puncher the others were not - he was so protected. Herbie used to get up i.e against bowe but had a useless chin. Lets face it against today's big heavys patterson would have been dropped by a grazing blow.

[True Writer]

Also he got up - good for him he had heart. But not a chin. I seriously can't think of many worse can you?

[True Writer]

Being knocked down means something especially when you are down at least 16 times - it means you've got no chin.

[Dempsey1238]

Patterson had no iron chin, and had they fought in 56, It was have been a brawl before Marciano found the mark and ended it in round 5 or 6. Patterson at the time was still slugging it out. And NO one slugs with Marciano at his own game. This wont be like Marciano Ali ete. But more like a Dempsey Firpo type of affair with Patterson comeing up short.

[Sweet Science]

Patterson had no iron chin, and had they fought in 56, It was have been a brawl before Marciano found the mark and ended it in round 5 or 6. Patterson at the time was still slugging it out. And NO one slugs with Marciano at his own game. This wont be like Marciano Ali ete. But more like a Dempsey Firpo type of affair with Patterson comeing up short.

I disagree about this fight turning into a brawl. Patterson was extremely skilled and could box. He would completley outclass Marciano while it lasted. Then as you say Patterson would get caught and go down.

[Duodenum]

More or less all of those are true. There wasn't some one ultimate reason for him to retire, but lots of small factors contributing to it. One that you didn't mention was that, according to Everett M. Skehan's account, Marciano was having serious back problems at the time leading up to his retirement.As you've also read Skehan's biography, there's no need for me to bother rehashing it here. One of the books in my library is the one Marciano and Goldman published on boxing and bodybuilding 50 years ago. If you also have that one, then you already know what Charley Goldman wrote in, PART FOUR: Champion against Champion, Chapter 20-How We Would Whip Floyd Patterson. Although a fancifully imaginative account of how it would go, narrated primarily for entertainment purposes, it is revealing, insofar as Goldman understands Rocky's strengths and weaknesses as compared to Floyd's. He also reminds his readers that he went on record as accurately predicting Patterson would defeat Moore for the vacated title.

If Rocky had decided to continue fighting, then Patterson would have been challenging Moore for his LHW championship.

In 1955 and 1956, the heavyweight division was deader than an elephant graveyard. Archie Moore was that era's master of self-promotion among the top challengers, and there really wasn't anywhere else Rocky could have gone with the title at that point. Norris and the IBC had brought the sport to it's lowest point (until Griffith/Paret III, which brought boxing to a new low, only to be surpassed by the current moribund subterrean sinkhole produced by the 12 round era).

In Johansson, Patterson only had to deal with a lethal right. With Rocky, he'd have to contend with the hook as well. With Marciano's power, if Floyd had been able to get back up, he would have been getting bounced worse than he did when Ingo dethroned him. Patterson would have probably been scared silly to face him. It would have been a preview of Liston.

[Dempsey1238]

If you watch his fights in the 50's, you might get other view, He brawl with Moore, he brawl with Maxie, and he got clock cold brawling with Ingo. In the rematch it was other brawl. It was not until the mid 60's did he change his style.

[Sweet Science]

If you watch his fights in the 50's, you might get other view, He brawl with Moore, he brawl with Maxie, and he got clock cold brawling with Ingo. In the rematch it was other brawl. It was not until the mid 60's did he change his style.

Patterson came accross as fairly intelligent, I think he'd be too smart to attempt brawling against a powerhouse like Marciano. He would use his strengths which would be his superior skills and speed.

[Dempsey1238]

He still chase after Ingo in the rematch and the 3rd fight. And EVEN than Ingo put him down. I dont think Patterson learn much from thsos 3 bouts. And when he fought Liston, he charge head first. No boxing no nothing. Just trying to out slug Liston. And the rematch?? Patterson charge head first AGAIN. In the 1950's, Patterson would have done the same to Marciano. Cus was teaching Patterson to be like Tyson. During the 60's Patterson had a change in styles.

[Bummy Davis]

:good God...KTFO is an idiot. He knows nothing pre 2000. Marciano was an aging fighter when he fought Moore. Moore had great heart. He told the ref not to stop because he wanted to go down like a champion. And he did. Marciano didn't duck Patterson even the slightest bit. I saw some footage on a documentary on Marciano, of when Marciano retired. He said "My wife made me announce that I am retiring before May of this year..." That was on April 27th, 1956. Marciano in the Moore and Cockell fights, was much slower, and didn't have the work rate he once had. Charlie Goldman also changed his style a little bit. He knew that if he changed Marciano style a little, that Marciano wouldn't hit as hard, but he would be more awkward to hit. Also, about Marciano fighting hand picked oppenents, in the begining of his career he was fighting guys that were supposed to beat him. The promoter even admitted it. Marciano fought everyone, and he knocked them out.

:good :good good post

[Bummy Davis]

As you've also read Skehan's biography, there's no need for me to bother rehashing it here. One of the books in my library is the one Marciano and Goldman published on boxing and bodybuilding 50 years ago. If you also have that one, then you already know what Charley Goldman wrote in, PART FOUR: Champion against Champion, Chapter 20-How We Would Whip Floyd Patterson. Although a fancifully imaginative account of how it would go, narrated primarily for entertainment purposes, it is revealing, insofar as Goldman understands Rocky's strengths and weaknesses as compared to Floyd's. He also reminds his readers that he went on record as accurately predicting Patterson would defeat Moore for the vacated title.

If Rocky had decided to continue fighting, then Patterson would have been challenging Moore for his LHW championship.

:good :good Good post

In 1955 and 1956, the heavyweight division was deader than an elephant graveyard. Archie Moore was that era's master of self-promotion among the top challengers, and there really wasn't anywhere else Rocky could have gone with the title at that point. Norris and the IBC had brought the sport to it's lowest point (until Griffith/Paret III, which brought boxing to a new low, only to be surpassed by the current moribund subterrean sinkhole produced by the 12 round era).

In Johansson, Patterson only had to deal with a lethal right. With Rocky, he'd have to contend with the hook as well. With Marciano's power, if Floyd had been able to get back up, he would have been getting bounced worse than he did when Ingo dethroned him. Patterson would have probably been scared silly to face him. It would have been a preview of Liston.

:good :good

[Duodenum]

He still chase after Ingo in the rematch and the 3rd fight. And EVEN than Ingo put him down. I dont think Patterson learn much from thsos 3 bouts. And when he fought Liston, he charge head first. No boxing no nothing. Just trying to out slug Liston. And the rematch?? Patterson charge head first AGAIN. In the 1950's, Patterson would have done the same to Marciano. Cus was teaching Patterson to be like Tyson. During the 60's Patterson had a change in styles.Right. Ali said Floyd had the best skills of any boxer he faced, but the smartest performance of his career may have come against Chuvalo. He also originally won the title in part because of the most dreadful performance of Moore's career. He couldn't have survived fighting Rocky like that.

[Sweet Science]

Bullshit. Most of Patterson´s knockdowns were when he was off-balance while jumping in with the left hook that has nothing to do with chin. Beeing hurt has something to do with chin, knockdowns only if you´re hurt.

I believe you're talking bollocks my friend. Patterson had very good balance and footwork. The knockdowns weren't down to being off balance they were down to Patterson's biggest and well documanted weakness his chin. Plain and simple.

[C. M. Clay II]

He cracked it real good in 8 in the rematch though. Charles had a solid chin too.

No he didn't. If Charles had a solid chin then so did Patterson had just as good a chin as Ezz, if not better. If Marciano had a hard time putting away Charles, he could definetely have a hard time putting away Patterson as well.:good

[Dempsey1238]

Charles was only ko ONE time before he face Marciano. Charles was not a easy guy to put away.

[Marciano Frazier]

Patterson was actually down at least 21 times that I know of:

once against a journeyman in an early fight
once against Pete Rademacher
once against Roy Harris
nine times against Johansson
four times against Liston
once against Ali
three times against Quarry
once against Bonavena

[mr. magoo]

Charles was only ko ONE time before he face Marciano. Charles was not a easy guy to put away.

Yes, but how many truley good heavyweights did he fight, and in the primes of their career's? A lot of people rip Patterson a new asshole for getting KO'd in one by Liston, but did Charles really ever fight a puncher of liston's calibur, except for Marciano who dusted him?

[Bill1234]

And in how many of these fights he got up?

Doesn't mean he had a good chin. It just means he had heart.

[Sweet Science]

Like i explained i disagree with that one. Getting knocked down has nothing to do with chin, beeing hurt has.

Getting knocked down has everything to do with your chin. Most of the time falling to the canvass is an involuntary reflex, the result of getting clocked good on the chin. While a fighter can be hurt and get stopped on his feet.

[Bill1234]

Getting knocked down has everything to do with your chin. Most of the time falling to the canvass is a involuntary reflex, the result of getting clocked good on the chin.

Exactly.

[Bummy Davis]

No he didn't. If Charles had a solid chin then so did Patterson had just as good a chin as Ezz, if not better. If Marciano had a hard time putting away Charles, he could definetely have a hard time putting away Patterson as well.:good

Charles had a good chin in every division he fought in including Heavy, Jimmy Ellis was dropped as a middleweight but stood up in the heavy division until he met Joe Frazier and took a lot of shots to the head and body, Patterson had a lot of skills but had trouble with a shot to the head, He was blasted by Ingo,Sonny, and used his experience and skills with the amatuerish heavys of the 70's but was still dropped a lot

[redrooster]

Why would anyone duck Patterson? The way I hear it, Patterson was known for all the ducking

[redrooster]

Getting knocked down has everything to do with your chin. Most of the time falling to the canvass is an involuntary reflex, the result of getting clocked good on the chin. While a fighter can be hurt and get stopped on his feet.

Exactly Science. That's the reason I sometimes knock Leonard

[Dempsey1238]

How could Marciano duck Liston?? Liston hardly rank in 13 bouts when Marciano retire.

[Bummy Davis]

Shut up, Cannelloni! :fuckoff



This kid is a raciest punk and a CYBOR tough guy(which is the same as a telephone toughguy) you can clearly see he is hatefull because Marciano is a white Italian and it kills him...he is a boy, or a girl

[mcvey]

Yes, but how many truley good heavyweights did he fight, and in the primes of their career's? A lot of people rip Patterson a new asshole for getting KO'd in one by Liston, but did Charles really ever fight a puncher of liston's calibur, except for Marciano who dusted him?
Rex Layne and Bob Satterfield were good punchers,and Charles beat them,plus he stood up to and beat Moore,one of the hardesthitting LHvys 3 times,I dont think Charles,s chin was that bad.

[Luigi1985]

This kid is a raciest punk and a CYBOR tough guy(which is the same as a telephone toughguy) you can clearly see he is hatefull because Marciano is a white Italian and it kills him...he is a boy, or a girl



:yep

[JIm Broughton]

Fighters with Marciano's style usually don't reign as champion for long. It's just too difficult to get into that kind of condition and take that kind of punishment for long. I think Marciano realized this as well. The Cockell fight was a good indicator of this. Marciano clubbed, fouled and mauled a punching bag for almost 10 rounds before finally putting him away. It did'nt take a soothsayer to know that Rocky was pretty much done as a dominant HW force. And while some of the up and coming HW's might not have been considered legit challengers YET, in another year or two they would have been and probably would have been too much for an older shopworn Marciano. Rocky's time was fast passing and he knew it. Give him credit for knowing when it was time to quit before being embarrased by a young lion. An old beat up Marciano would have been a resume padder for a fast as lightning Patterson or a brutal puncher like Liston.

[jackiebrown]

Because he does not deserve it. That's the point.please you got a picture of a cocky black chicken shit from the "mean streets" of grand rapids ...yep ... nobody can stand him ..the only way he can make any money is from a bunch of fans hopeing like hell he gets ko'd ...yep ... makes rap videos where he plays ass grab and splash splash with abunch of other shit heads...yep ... rocky marciano ko's floyd mayweather in 2 .. yep ... soon as floyd loses i have a feeling the winners picture will be in your avatar...yep....

ok my rap is over

[My dinner with Conteh]

Retiring and 'ducking' are two totally separate entities. Silly thread really.

[janitor]

No he didn't. If Charles had a solid chin then so did Patterson had just as good a chin as Ezz, if not better. If Marciano had a hard time putting away Charles, he could definetely have a hard time putting away Patterson as well.:good

The crucial difference is that Charles was much more elusive and defensively adept than Patterson.

If Patterson comes straight at Marciano then things are going to come to their logical conclusion much sooner.

[janitor]

The circumstances on the ground whwn Marciano retired

I had a look at a copy of ring magazine when Marcianos retirment was anounced.

Floyd Patterson was seen as an exciting prospect but not a potential challenger to Marcianos crown and certainly not the next champion.

The editors conclude that Marciano has met all logical challengers. They suggest that he could perhaps have stayed on and fought Tommy Huricane Jackson but that it would not have been competitive. It is asumed that Archie Moore being the next champion is as good as a done deal.

What is aparent is that Patterson came from nowhere verry quickly. Marciano's retirment prompted Cus Damato to alter his plans and make an early grab for the title which against anybodys expectations suceeded, producing the youngest heavyweight champion of all time.

Marciano toyed with the idea of coming back to fight Patterson and Johansen but it quickly became aparent to him that he would never recover his previous form so he ditched the plans.

[janitor]

Rockys own thoughts on his eventual conqueror

I can remember, though, the night that Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott fought for the first time and Walcott had Louis down twice but didn’t get the decision. I had had one pro fight 10 months before and I was sitting on the bed at home listening to the fight.
It never occurred to me that I would be the guy to knock out Louis and retire him and then knock out Walcott and take the heavyweight championship of the world. Now that I’m champion I wonder, once in a while, if there is some other kid nobody ever heard of sitting someplace and listening to one of my fights, or watching it on television, who might, in a few years, do the same thing to me.
I'm heavyweight champion of the world, but is there some young fighter somewhere who wants it as much as I did?
Out on the West Coast there’s this big, young heavyweight named Charlie Powell. He put together a lot of knockouts last year, and they were touting him as a real good prospect. That night last fall when he fought Charley Norkus I watched on television, and when the fight got under way I could see that he was a big guy and boxed nice and could punch. "You know," I thought to myself, "this might be the guy."


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[fists of fury]

Rockys own thoughts on his eventual conqueror

I can remember, though, the night that Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott fought for the first time and Walcott had Louis down twice but didn’t get the decision. I had had one pro fight 10 months before and I was sitting on the bed at home listening to the fight.
It never occurred to me that I would be the guy to knock out Louis and retire him and then knock out Walcott and take the heavyweight championship of the world. Now that I’m champion I wonder, once in a while, if there is some other kid nobody ever heard of sitting someplace and listening to one of my fights, or watching it on television, who might, in a few years, do the same thing to me.
I'm heavyweight champion of the world, but is there some young fighter somewhere who wants it as much as I did?
Out on the West Coast there’s this big, young heavyweight named Charlie Powell. He put together a lot of knockouts last year, and they were touting him as a real good prospect. That night last fall when he fought Charley Norkus I watched on television, and when the fight got under way I could see that he was a big guy and boxed nice and could punch. "You know," I thought to myself, "this might be the guy."


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I read that a few months ago. Intriguing glimpse into Marciano's psyche.

[Cachibatches]

This is the same bad thinking as Lewis "ducked" a Klit rematch.

Retiring is not ducking. Retiring is saying that you don't want to do something anymore.

One thing I haven't seen anyone post (didn't read the entire thread yet) is that MArciano had a bad back, and that contributed to his retirement. In that context, maybe FLoyd could have beat him, and so could a lot of guys becasue the Rock couldn't train anymmore. That might be why he quit, but it sure ain't ducking either. Is a fighter who no longer has it obligated to hang around and get his brains knocked out?

I think MOST would say that prime for prime, Marciano was the better man. But Floyd was a legend in is own right, a bit underweight and chinny, but fast, powerful, and brave. It would have been a fight between two ring warriors.

[Dempsey1238]

boy he went downward after loseing to Charley Norkus. so I guess he wasnt the guy lol. If Rocky had not retire, and assumeing he can make it to say what?? 37??? 38??? I dont think he can, but than Liston may be the guy.

I give Machen or Folly good shots in beating a past it Rocky before Liston does.

[janitor]

boy he went downward after loseing to Charley Norkus. so I guess he wasnt the guy lol.

The point is that some people here almost act as if Marciano could see into the future and determine that Paterson and Liston were to be the heirs to his throne.

In practice experts are verry inconsistent at picking winners on the way up. The guy who Marciano would identify as a likley sucessor might turn out to be the Audley Harrison of his era.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano needed Bill Corum and his time Machine to know what would have happen if he went on lol. But outside of Corum, we dont know what will happen.

[C. M. Clay II]

The crucial difference is that Charles was much more elusive and defensively adept than Patterson.

If Patterson comes straight at Marciano then things are going to come to their logical conclusion much sooner.

I saw Rocky hit flush shot after flush shot on Charles and he didn't go down.

[Dempsey1238]

That was mostly in the later rounds, when Charles was pretty much drain.

[C. M. Clay II]

That was mostly in the later rounds, when Charles was pretty much drain.

That's not my point.

[janitor]

I saw Rocky hit flush shot after flush shot on Charles and he didn't go down.

It is still not like having sombody willing to stand in front of him and trade from the opening bell. That sort of game could conclude verry quickly.

[C. M. Clay II]

It is still not like having sombody willing to stand in front of him and trade from the opening bell. That sort of game could conclude verry quickly.

Remember, Patterson with his headmovement could make it pretty hard for Marciano.:good

[janitor]

Remember, Patterson with his headmovement could make it pretty hard for Marciano.:good

Sure but he is also going to be coming forward which means sooner or later he is going be hit with a punch like the one that took out Rex Layne while moving into it. Ouch.

[Hank]

Yes,Marciano ducked Patterson.


Yeah, Liston was trying to avoid Patterson for years also :rofl

[Mendoza]

Or avoid him in some way?

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?

Just wasn't worth the risk at that point in his career?

Was there a lot of talk about Marciano vs Patterson? I do not recall. I don't think Rocky retired to avoid facing Patterson.

[RockyJim]

The Rock by BRUTAL KO.......When Rocky retired on April 27,1956...Floyd was not even a top ten heavy....ducking Floyd?......No....

[RoccoMarciano]

Or avoid him in some way?

Floyd was coming on towards the end of Rocky's reign as champ... Did he retire with a potential reservation in facing Patterson?

Just wasn't worth the risk at that point in his career?
He retired because he was having back problems, and his mom was begging him to. To think Marciano would duck Patterson, who if I remember wasn't even in the top 10 when Rocky retired, seems a little silly.

Edit: I see RockyJim already mentioned the top ten part.

[Grebfan9]

When Rocky was still in his relative prime (1955-1956), Rocky would
have still had enough to beat Patterson. Patterson had quick hands
and a very good left hook, but his chin couldn't take Rocky's punches.

Floyd would have had to fight the PERFECT fight, and its not likely
against Rocky.

Remember, Floyd was dropped by Ingo, Radamacher, Liston, Ali,
Bonavena, Quarry ( am I forgetting someone?).

Rocky hit hard and often - Floyd would get hurt!!!