Does Joe Louis mean more to you than just boxing?

[mr. magoo]

For me he's a national hero, icon, historical figure, and an inspiration. To limit him as just a boxer is an injustice to his name.

[guilalah]

I admired his class in deporting himself like a professional, not running down his opponents, not making excuses, ect. (I'm glad, when he wanted to leave the ring before the decision for the first fight with Walcott, that he listened to his handlers).
My dad (b. 1927) remembers being very suprised how hateful a lot of people seemed to feel towards Joe when he became champion. But it seems like most people of that generation remember Louis with affection, so I guess he won a lot of people over.

[JAB5239]

For me he's a national hero, icon, historical figure, and an inspiration. To limit him as just a boxer is an injustice to his name.

Louis did more for this country, civil rights and boxing than he is given credit for. He is everything you have said, and more.:good

[red cobra]

Joe Louis was a great figure that transcended the world of boxing when he represented the side of good in the Schmeling rematch, and when he made that speech saying that "we were on God's side", and giving his entire purses of a couple of title defenses to the Armed Forces like he did.

[ChrisPontius]

He is a true hero, not just in boxing but he did ground breaking work in black folks being accepted in sports and in general. He sacrificed himself by being humble and politically correct while no doubt he wanted to rage against the injustice he saw. That takes balls. He will never be forgotten.

[Russell]

He is a true hero, not just in boxing but he did ground breaking work in black folks being accepted in sports and in general. He sacrificed himself by being humble and politically correct while no doubt he wanted to rage against the injustice he saw. That takes balls. He will never be forgotten.

He's more or less the Bizarro world version of Jack Johnson, and deserves massives amounts of respect for completely different reasons.

He's also maybe the best example of the hypocrisy and sub-human behavior of the certain facets of our goverment.

[Vanboxingfan]

On another thread I posted his bio and obituary. Class act who change the perception some caucasians had of blacks.

As the saying goes, he was a credit to his race. His race being the human race.

[Maxmomer]

Joe Louis is the shit.

[capuano]

No he does not mean more to me than just boxing.

Jack Johnson does however.

[McGrain]

Boxer for me.

[janitor]

I am British and I admire what he did in terms of civil rights imensley.

It is a case study, of an essentialy normal man, having an unbearable responsibility dumped on his shoulders, and somehow beating the odds.

[asero]

even max s admire him and look up to him

[Russell]

even max s admire him and look up to him

Even Max? :lol:

You say it like Schmeling was some kind of gruff asshole.

[Mendoza]

There is a quote that said Joe Louis was a credit to his race, the human race.

Louis was a true hero, but not one without fault outside the ring.

[sugar71]

Joe Louis says that "I will go along with Jim Crow on the outside(civilian world) "& the fact that friends like Truman Gibson(Military Adviser) found that he was disappointingly reluctant to take up 'issues of discrimination' goes to the heart of why he was seen as less than heroic to some Blacks of the Civil rights era. Jim Brown , Ali(called him an Uncle Tom) & others openly criticized his deafening silence on most issues of substance to the Civil Rights movement.

That being said he for over a decade served as a proud symbol to Americans (Black & White alike) racially/patriotically.:happy But he was only a Prizefighter & was aware of this when he says "Jackie Robison is my hero. He didn't bite his tongue for nothing. I just didn't have the guts... to say what he says". At least Joe Louis was aware of his legacy as Jim Brown, Ali & others were quick to point out.(Although they both respected the man overall).
His backward way of dealing with oppression was simply rejected by athletes like Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Jim Brown, Ali, Tommy Smith,John carlos ,etc........ as they knew it to be ineffective.

[janitor]

Joe Louis says that "I will go along with Jim Crow on the outside(civilian world) "& the fact that friends like Truman Gibson(Military Adviser) found that he was disappointingly reluctant to take up 'issues of discrimination' goes to the heart of why he was seen as less than heroic to some Blacks of the Civil rights era. Jim Brown , Ali(called him an Uncle Tom) & others openly criticized his deafening silence on most issues of substance to the Civil Rights movement.

That being said he for over a decade served as a proud symbol to Americans (Black & White alike) racially/patriotically.:happy But he was only a Prizefighter & was aware of this when he says "Jackie Robison is my hero. He didn't bite his tongue for nothing. I just didn't have the guts... to say what he says". At least Joe Louis was aware of his legacy as Jim Brown, Ali & others were quick to point out.(Although they both respected the man overall).
His backward way of dealing with oppression was simply rejected by athletes like Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Jim Brown, Ali, Tommy Smith,John carlos ,etc........ as they knew it to be ineffective.

Joe Louis created the genaration of black athletes who came after him whatever their stance.

Without what he did and how he did it there would simply have been no Jackie Robinmson to take a more vocal stance.

I know this truth anoys you but it wont go away however much you put your fingers in your ears and scream "is not".

[mr. magoo]

Joe Louis created the genaration of black athletes who came after him whatever their stance.

Without what he did and how he did it there would simply have been no Jackie Robinmson to take a more vocal stance.

I know this truth anoys you but it wont go away however much you put your fingers in your ears and scream "is not".


Agreed,

Joe Louis did not have the luxury of being among peers who shared the same sentiments and who were willing to speak out on them. He did not grow up as part of a generation where things like affirmative action or equal rights were political topics that were open for public debate. Muhammad Ali, Jackie Robinson and others, were mere voices in a croud chanting the same thing. Joe Louis however, stood for something much greater than the defense of a single race. He represented that he was a voice and an icon for ALL people, and not just a concept or punchline. It took great courage to tell a commanding officer during war time, that he would not sport his exhibitions for just white soldiers, and that black personnel would have to be permitted to see his performance as well. For a black soldier to stand up to a high ranking white officer in the 1940's, took a lot more guts than for a black civilian to visit a college and talk about equal rights during the 1960's........

[Bummy Davis]

Joe Louis was a hero amoung Americans and made Black Americans proud. He beat Schmeling during a war. He donated his purse to the military. Was a smart man who is quoted by many. He opened doors for many Black Americans and spoke out for equality as a man of influance. He also set a good example. As a champion he is # 1, fought all challengers and defended 25 times....Brown Bomber was loved and an IDOL to many Frank Sinatra and Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier,George Foreman etc.

[GPater11093]

it sums it up when a young black man was sentanced to death by gas chamber in the gas chamber his last words were

'save me joe louis'

louis was an icon to black people during the 40s but he was also the icon to the younger white people who saw him and respected him. but what was even more surpring the old white people came around to respect him

[sugar71]

Agreed,

Joe Louis did not have the luxury of being among peers who shared the same sentiments and who were willing to speak out on them. He did not grow up as part of a generation where things like affirmative action or equal rights were political topics that were open for public debate. Muhammad Ali, Jackie Robinson and others, were mere voices in a croud chanting the same thing.

Please stop with the misinformation.
MARCUS GARVEY (MORE MILITANT version of Malcolm X:yikes & Malcolm's inspiration) was at his peak in the 1920/30's & his UNIA had somewhere around 2 MILLION members at it's peak.(Four times the NAACP MEMBERSHIP) MARCUS GARVEY drew crowds in the TENS of Thousands (on par or larger than with Louis wins over Braddock/Schmelling) to hear him speak.

PAUL ROBESON was one of the most outspoken Athletes/Entertainers/Civil Rights activists of his day.

A. Philip Randolph was organizing a MARCH ON WASHINGTON in 1942 for the IMMEDIATE end to government segregation/discrimination, Miltary segregation,etc......which was put on hold due to broken promises by FDR/WWII.
C.O.R.E(Congress on Racial Equality) was founded around Louis' time.
IDA B WELLS,BAYARD RUSTIN , Elijah Muhammad, THE proud Chicago Defender & Crisis(NEWSPapers/journals),etc.....among many other outspoken Black leaders.
THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT did not begin in the 60's dude. TELEVISION/MASS MEDIA simply brought these issues to the forefront unlike NEVER before makng the nation face them, but they had been fought & chipped away at for decades before. These & many more were Louis' peers & Louis was well aware of them . Only they did not own the Heavyweight championship belt. JACK JOHNSON was THE one with few peers speaking out nor any CiVIL RIGHTS orginizations whatsoever in 1908.


Jim Brown says it best when he spoke of Joe Louis to Whites: "You like LOUIS because he's the kind of Negro you want him to be"(humble/docile)

Joe Louis was aware of ALL of these people he instead chose to emasculate himself by living a life of lies instead of taking his testicles back & living as a free man like a Jack Johnson(who lived in a much tougher era) It bothered him greatly later on & is probably why he descended into heroin, financial ruin & speaking to voices in his air conditioner. :-(

[janitor]

[quote=sugar71;3386075]Please stop with the misinformation.
MARCUS GARVEY (MORE MILITANT version of Malcolm X:yikes & Malcolm's inspiration) was at his peak in the 1920/30's & his UNIA had somewhere around 2 MILLION members at it's peak.(Four times the NAACP MEMBERSHIP) MARCUS GARVEY drew crowds in the TENS of Thousands (on par or larger than with Louis wins over Braddock/Schmelling) to hear him speak.


Yes but they didnt actualy ahieve anything.

Louis did.


A. Philip Randolph was organizing a MARCH ON WASHINGTON in 1942 for the IMMEDIATE end to government segregation/discrimination, Miltary segregation,etc......which was put on hold due to broken promises by FDR/WWII.


A cause which Louis used his status to champion while he was in the army.

THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT did not begin in the 60's dude.

No.

It just started to be efective in the 60s.

This is the context in which Louis's stance has to be judged.


TELEVISION/MASS MEDIA simply brought these issues to the forefront unlike NEVER before makng the nation face them, but they had been fought & chipped away at for decades before. These & many more were Louis' peers & Louis was well aware of them . Only they did not own the Heavyweight championship belt. JACK JOHNSON was THE one with few peers speaking out nor any CiVIL RIGHTS orginizations whatsoever in 1908.


Can you produce any evidence of Jack Johnswon being involved in the civil rights movment on any level?


Jim Brown says it best when he spoke of Joe Louis to Whites: "You like LOUIS because he's the kind of Negro you want him to be"(humble/docile)


He was right.

The point is that by taking that stance Louis moved the agenda forward more than any other athlete in history.

Joe Louis was aware of ALL of these people he instead chose to emasculate himself by living a life of lies instead of taking his testicles back & living as a free man like a Jack Johnson(who lived in a much tougher era)

There are several fundamental questions being asked which you are singularly failing to adress.

1. Did any black athlete in history do more to advance the cause of the civil rights movment in practical terms and if so who?

2. Could Louis have achieved greater advances in terms of civil rights by taking a more confrontational aproach?

Now I think we all know that the answers to these question are no and no.

In that case it is a little churlish to refuse to give Louis credit for what he achieved because you dont like the way he did it.

Hell unless you can find alternative answers to these questions it is hard to find any coherently logical case against what Louis did.

I guess if Louis walked on water without sticking two fingers up at white America you would say that he did it because he couldnt swim.

[mr. magoo]

Who the hell is this guy?

[Bummy Davis]

[quote]


Yes but they didnt actualy ahieve anything.

Louis did.



A cause which Louis used his status to champion while he was in the army.



No.

It just started to be efective in the 60s.

This is the context in which Louis's stance has to be judged.



Can you produce any evidence of Jack Johnswon being involved in the civil rights movment on any level?



He was right.

The point is that by taking that stance Louis moved the agenda forward more than any other athlete in history.



There are several fundamental questions being asked which you are singularly failing to adress.

1. Did any black athlete in history do more to advance the cause of the civil rights movment in practical terms and if so who?

2. Could Louis have achieved greater advances in terms of civil rights by taking a more confrontational aproach?

Now I think we all know that the answers to these question are no and no.

In that case it is a little churlish to refuse to give Louis credit for what he achieved because you dont like the way he did it.

Hell unless you can find alternative answers to these questions it is hard to find any coherently logical case against what Louis did.

I guess if Louis walked on water without sticking two fingers up at white America you would say that he did it because he couldnt swim.


Good rebutal Janitor.....Louis did it right and was a hero , a lot of other so-called leaders spewed hate and division and are known for nothing ...Louis was as black as could be but he made a success out of his life and was loved by blacks and whites and he was a respected man and fighter

[mr. magoo]

I don't want to turn this discussion into a heated political debate, leading to potential bannings, but Louis in my opinion did a hell of a lot more for the black community than later figures such as Malcolm X, Lewis Faracon, and Elijah Muhammad did. The latter mentioned names, EVOLKED divisivness, whereas Louis helped to disolve some of it.

[janitor]

Who the hell is this guy?

Whoever he is he has prety big chip on his shoulder.

[mr. magoo]

Whoever he is he has prety big chip on his shoulder.


No argument here.

[ChrisPontius]

It makes me sick to see people talking bad about Joe Louis, after all he did and the ways he opened for black athletes and black people in general. As if being humble and docile are bad personality traits.

[Bummy Davis]

It makes me sick to see people talking bad about Joe Louis, after all he did and the ways he opened for black athletes and black people in general. As if being humble and docile are bad personality traits.


Marciano was humble and docile and never talked smack...Louis was of the same mold but they WALKED the WALK in the ring and were the most Voilent docile and humble men with there fists...Class acts

[john garfield]

When I was a young amateur hitting a heavy bag at Stillman's Gym, a boxer backed into me and apologized. it was Joe Louis; my mouth dropped open.

[Arka]

He was a boxer to me. I think people here are overstating the power of sportsmen to influence historical events and affect the great changes in society.

[janitor]

He was a boxer to me. I think people here are overstating the power of sportsmen to influence historical events and affect the great changes in society.

Fair enough.

I just think that this sportsman had a bigger impact, perhaps than even he anticipated.

[McGrain]

Louis was such an incredible boxer that it's stupid to expect him to be a better human than fighter.

[janitor]

Louis was such an incredible boxer that it's stupid to expect him to be a better human than fighter.

True true.

He was essentialy an average man put in an impossible position and he just happened to be the right sort of man.

[Arka]

True true.

He was essentialy an average man put in an impossible position and he just happened to be the right sort of man.

Some are born great,some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust on 'em......

To my mind,Louis achieved greatness as a fighter and at the same time had greatness thrust on his shoulders,as an icon of black social and political advancement.

That's not to say he wasn't a source of inspiration for colored people and ,as an individual,he didn't use his position to break down racial barriers .

[janitor]

To my mind,Louis achieved greatness as a fighter and at the same time had greatness thrust on his shoulders,as an icon of black social and political advancement.


Your "mind" has asesed the situation correctly here.

[ChrisPontius]

When I was a young amateur hitting a heavy bag at Stillman's Gym, a boxer backed into me and apologized. it was Joe Louis; my mouth dropped open.

It's amazing how one can remain humble after so many seemingly effortless victories. That experience alone must have made you a fan.

[CzarKyle]

For me he's a national hero, icon, historical figure, and an inspiration. To limit him as just a boxer is an injustice to his name.

That's how history will see him, but as for boxing historians it's a totally different distinction. It's not really an injustice for him to be limited since it's the boxing portion of Joe Louis that makes him who he is. The public made him more then that. I don't like to blur lines or add outside-the-ring accomplishments.

In the ring: great fighter.

Outside the ring: true hero.

[sugar71]

He was a boxer to me. I think people here are overstating the power of sportsmen to influence historical events and affect the great changes in society.

Agreed.
Ali, Johnson & Louis were Prizefighters only & to credit any of them with 'serious' political advancement is an insult to those who suffered & made the issue a life long struggle. The only thing special about these guys are that they held the Heavyweight title belt in the country's most popular sport ,along with Baseball & Horseracing, at the time. Other than being inspirational to some people their influence was negligible.

It is grasping for straws for someone to credit a man like Louis (who gladly accepted Jim Crow) for serious political advancement:lol: He was the exact opposite of leaders like W E B DuBois & Martin L. King who spoke of the 'fierce urgency of NOW' & made this a life long issue. I prefer taking the opinion of those who ACTUALLY struggled in the movement as opposed to the ill informed.

Do we forget that he abused women? Nearly choked Lena Horne to death. Did he set women's issues back also?
That he was a hapless heroin addict? So is he also responsible for the proliferation of drugs in America/Black community? The guy was for awhile a symol of pride & little more.

I like Joe Louis tremendously , but it is nonsense to credit someone with something that ran counter to his values. Issues that he (Loius)openly states HIMSELF that he WISH he had the COURAGE/ARTICULATION to stand up for like his peers did(Jackie Robinson/Paul Robeson,etc.....

[asero]

joe louis is timeless

[BoxingFanNo1]

One of boxings elite.
One of mankinds greatest creations.

I've read 'The great black hope' and 'Heroes without a country'. Both books took my breath away.
There are no words.