Nationality and Euro Fighters

[emanuel_augustus]

I'm wondering how much the nationality of European fighters affects their style and type of fighter they are.

Is there such a phenomemon?

It seems to me like there may be a bit of this still at play even with the order of the world quite different and borders become more and more blurred. I suppose it's a bit cliche, but then again, are German fighters generally more stoic and technical (Ottke, Maske), Italians more dramatic in the ring (Nardiello, Cantatore), Eastern Bloc (Soviet influence) fighters no-nonsense, more rigid and upright, Irish more passionate brawlers, etc.

Maybe this isn't true at all, and not living in Europe I'm not entirely sure how much these national perceptions still live and whether or not they actually affect boxing styles. Just something I've anecdotally observed.

To me, however it's an interesting question

[Odo]

I'm wondering how much the nationality of European fighters affects their style and type of fighter they are.

Is there such a phenomemon?

It seems to me like there may be a bit of this still at play even with the order of the world quite different and borders become more and more blurred. I suppose it's a bit cliche, but then again, are German fighters generally more stoic and technical (Ottke, Maske), Italians more dramatic in the ring (Nardiello, Cantatore), Eastern Bloc (Soviet influence) fighters no-nonsense, more rigid and upright, Irish more passionate brawlers, etc.

Maybe this isn't true at all, and not living in Europe I'm not entirely sure how much these national perceptions still live and whether or not they actually affect boxing styles. Just something I've anecdotally observed.

To me, however it's an interesting question

Interesting post,emanuel!!

We also have the psychological factor into account. For example a good fighter from Russia usually considers himself to be part of the finest boxing school on this little planet being able to beat any rival out there wherever he stems from and whichever credentials he has whereas a fighter from England or Germany usually has that tiny bit of doubt deep into his mind whether he really has the skills to defeat a top American or sout american fighter.Besides a lot of western european fighters lack the true mental toughness to go to battle ready to sacrifice a lot in order to be victorious over his foe. Life is easy in most parts of europe,and the kind of educations kids receive there weakens their figthing spirit.
Boxing is still a manly sport in the countries of the former soviet union in the sense that you dont have to be a weird freak to start training in a gym as you seem to have to be in most western european countries.
A manly behaviour is still a usual way of conduct for ordinary men in some part of europe,but in most parts of europe manly behaviour is considered to be out of fashion.
Dont get me wrong though. A good fighter is a good fighter irrespective of his origin,but still...................the psychological factor of a fighter's ethnical background shouldnt be dismissed easily.

[avk47]

I don't think that the key here is necissarily the fighters worldview, psychology. Many parts of UK, for example, are hardly easy life either, though, I agree, in Russia there is a certain pride in our school of boxing, most boxers know about the great amateurs etc. I think the key here, however, is coaching. In Russian and other former Soviet countries you have the same Soviet system of producing boxers still in existance. Most of the important coaches are still Soviet era guys, like Khromov (current Russian national coach), Belov, etc. Even if the coach didn't coach during Soviet times, he most likely boxed then (Lebziak), and got the knowledge from his mentor. Most of the training methodologies, etc. were developed by researchers during the Soviet Union. I think, as it it still called in those parts of Europe, that it's still the Soviet school of boxing. While you would get some differences depending on the coach + all boxers have individual styles, the classical style that boxers are grounded in is the same in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan etc. This is the Soviet school of boxing. Boxers then build on their own flair to that, so obviously you wouldn't compare how Povetkin boxes with Makarenko. Also, many young guys coming up through the amateurs these days would be looking to turn pro, so again, that would impact their style.

[Ramón]

Interesting post,emanuel!!

We also have the psychological factor into account. For example a good fighter from Russia usually considers himself to be part of the finest boxing school on this little planet being able to beat any rival out there wherever he stems from and whichever credentials he has whereas a fighter from England or Germany usually has that tiny bit of doubt deep into his mind whether he really has the skills to defeat a top American or sout american fighter.Besides a lot of western european fighters lack the true mental toughness to go to battle ready to sacrifice a lot in order to be victorious over his foe. Life is easy in most parts of europe,and the kind of educations kids receive there weakens their figthing spirit.
Boxing is still a manly sport in the countries of the former soviet union in the sense that you dont have to be a weird freak to start training in a gym as you seem to have to be in most western european countries.
A manly behaviour is still a usual way of conduct for ordinary men in some part of europe,but in most parts of europe manly behaviour is considered to be out of fashion.
Dont get me wrong though. A good fighter is a good fighter irrespective of his origin,but still...................the psychological factor of a fighter's ethnical background shouldnt be dismissed easily.

For a nation of 140 million where boxing is supposed to appeal to many young men who then benefit from the finest boxing schooling in the world, Russia sure doesn't have many top professional fighters. Who is the best Russian professional fighter right now? Chagaev? Valuev? Povetkin? Maskaev? Inkin?

Mexico is as rich/poor as Russia but only has 3/4 of Russia's population and they have fighters like Juan Manuel Marquez, Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez, to name but a few.

Russian superiority my ass.

[avk47]

For a nation of 140 million where boxing is supposed to appeal to many young men who then benefit from the finest boxing schooling in the world, Russia sure doesn't have many top professional fighters. Who is the best Russian professional fighter right now? Chagaev? Valuev? Povetkin? Maskaev? Inkin?

Mexico is as rich/poor as Russia but only has 3/4 of Russia's population and they have fighters like Juan Manuel Marquez, Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez, to name but a few.

Russian superiority my ass.

Two points amigo. Firstly, Odo was refering to how Russian fighters view themselves and their school of boxing, not necissarily that they are supperior. And that is true, Russian amateurs are proud of their school, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Secondly, I agree that Mexico's achievements in boxing are impressive. However, you have to rememer that Mexico has a long history of professional boxing. Russia has a long history of amateur boxing, and as a team, plays in another league to Mexico in amateur tournaments. The promotional system etc. is not as developed in Russia, nor is there the possibility to get a similar number of professional bouts without immediatly leaving the country. There is also still not a huge drive to turn pro as it is in other countries. Of the top national teams of the last few year, the only people who have turned pro are Povetkin (who is doing pretty well...) and Korobov (is also a real talent). Olympic champions like Tischenko have no desire to turn over, Chakhiev and the like seem to not be interested either. You get guys in their early thirties who are still career amateurs, but top-notch ones. Moral: there isn't really a big enough inflow of the best fighters into professional boxing - probably less than in Mexico.

[Kolya]

For a nation of 140 million where boxing is supposed to appeal to many young men who then benefit from the finest boxing schooling in the world, Russia sure doesn't have many top professional fighters. Who is the best Russian professional fighter right now? Chagaev? Valuev? Povetkin? Maskaev? Inkin?

Mexico is as rich/poor as Russia but only has 3/4 of Russia's population and they have fighters like Juan Manuel Marquez, Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez, to name but a few.

Russian superiority my ass.


Mexico is no where near as wealthy as Russia. If it was Mexicans wouldn't be in such a rush to turn pro at 16 just to make a spare buck and Mexico would have an amateur program worth a shit, rather than one decent amateur in Arturo Santos Reyes.

[emanuel_augustus]

Besides a lot of western european fighters lack the true mental toughness to go to battle ready to sacrifice a lot in order to be victorious over his foe. Life is easy in most parts of europe,and the kind of educations kids receive there weakens their figthing spirit.
Boxing is still a manly sport in the countries of the former soviet union in the sense that you dont have to be a weird freak to start training in a gym as you seem to have to be in most western european countries.
A manly behaviour is still a usual way of conduct for ordinary men in some part of europe,but in most parts of europe manly behaviour is considered to be out of fashion.
Dont get me wrong though. A good fighter is a good fighter irrespective of his origin,but still...................the psychological factor of a fighter's ethnical background shouldnt be dismissed easily.

This gets at what I was thinking about. It seems to me like there are generally attitudinal and style differences in fighters from different countries. Mental toughness is both a cultural and psychological trait. Generally, the culture/economics/history of a country determines the mental toughness of its people. This seems to me to translate to boxing in many aspects.

Many of the eastern Euro fighters are tough as nails mentally but also seem have to have a boxing cultural code where retiring in a match is not seen as dishonorable if conditions warrant.

Northern Europeans seem generally to love to mix it up and have the straight ahead tactics of the Norse.

Western Euro fighters from say Italy, France, and to an extent Germany generally seem more technically oriented and more sportsmen rather than warriors. The mentality just seems different to me.

I wonder also how these attitudes toward fighting reflect the perception of martial might and philosophies of a particular country? Maybe partially, maybe not at all, but I think there might be some connections to be made. Boxing is, after all, martial combat on smaller scale than armies, so it stands to reason individuals might be influenced by larger martial concepts.

[Ramón]

Two points amigo. Firstly, Odo was refering to how Russian fighters view themselves and their school of boxing, not necissarily that they are supperior.

No, he wasn't. He was saying Russians had "the true mental toughness" that some other peoples didn't have.

Mexico is no where near as wealthy as Russia.

Russia GDP/head = $14,705
Mexico GDP/head = $14,120

(2007 IMF estimates)



Let me guess...you boys are Russian, right? Your English is pretty good, I'll give you that!

[avk47]

Yes I am Russian. 1) You didn't respond to my point about pro boxing (which was the main part of my argument), but simply responded to the wealth argument. 2) Odo's point about mental toughness is separate from his point on pride and self belief in the Russian school. He was comparing mental toughness between Russia and Western Europe. Mexico is not Western Europe. Surely you can't argue that life is tougher in former USSR than in Western Europe, for the most part? Anyway, my own view is that mental toughness is part of someones personality to a large extent anyway. I would never discount someone's toughness just because he had a nice upbringing, because that may turn out to be painful. He would however less likely use that toughness in top level boxing than in, say, business. I wouldn't say that certain types of business require less toughness than boxing... I would similarly never assume somebody was extremely tough just by being from a harder background, indeed, maybe the lack of that toughness was a reason for his suffering.

[TFFP]

Like many stereotypes, there is a slice of reality to these perceived styles.

I don't personally believe in the mental toughness/upbringing psychology, but on a stylistic basis there is no doubt nations seem to have their own ideas on how to fight. It is simply the schooling they receive.

[lucatoni08]

Interesting article, never really thought about it that much, but the more I think about it the more it seems true. Speaking from an Irish point of view, a lot of our fighters do tend to be absolute brawlers with a lot of heart, e.g Steve Collins,Wayne Mccullough, John Duddy, Jimmy Mclarnin..even our ancesteral 'Irish Fighters' have these traits , Mickey Ward, Jack Dempsey,J.L Sullivan, Jimmy Braddock etc...

[Odo]

For a nation of 140 million where boxing is supposed to appeal to many young men who then benefit from the finest boxing schooling in the world, Russia sure doesn't have many top professional fighters. Who is the best Russian professional fighter right now? Chagaev? Valuev? Povetkin? Maskaev? Inkin?

Mexico is as rich/poor as Russia but only has 3/4 of Russia's population and they have fighters like Juan Manuel Marquez, Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez, to name but a few.

Russian superiority my ass.

Russia's pro fight market is tiny and totally insignificant.Money is the name of this game.Quite a lot of American or American based posters tend to misunderstand the concept of the pro game.I dont get it! Isnt capitalism a religion over there in the usa? And money the petrol of that ideology? Is is that difficult to understand the rules of this game?
A promoter invests money in his boys,and he wants to benifit from his investments.Therefore he doesnt care a fig whether they best fighters out there fight each other or not.
He wants to make money.
Mexican fighters can easily turn pro as the biggest fight market in the world is right around the corner:the USA.
Countless mexican fighters play by the pro rules at present.
Russia??:-((
There as many fight cards in Russia as there are in a country like Argentine.
Slowly,the situation is getting better and better in Russia,but it still has a long way to go in order to be able to compete with England and or Germany.
And by the way do you really think that the best fighters in the world fight in the paid ranks??
Nah! There are quite a few top amateurs who would beat the living shit out of some pro elite fighters if they ever turned pro.
Lets take a fighter like Bakhtiyar Artayev. He cant speak English nor German.His name puzzles any average American or German fight fan out there.They cant even pronounce his name. Artayev has some fierce rivals at the amateurs.Nevertheless,I bet my house that he would manage to capture a world title at the pros and defend it for some time if.......:Dhe were mexican with a mexican name fighting out of the usa for an american promoter.
Anyway! I dont intend to belittle Mexico and its fighters.Mexico has produced numerous great pro fighters who were and are fun to watch.I very much hope that you got my point.
Some fighters of the countries of the former soviet union turn pro with a German promoter on German soil.However,they only present a handful of those myriads of talented fighters in Russia,Ukraine,and Belarus.
The skills are there,but not the money and the necessary capital to stage big pro fight events.
Russia is a superpower at the amateurs.
A little hamlet -so to speak-on this globe like Belarus can proudly claim that its national squad beat the mighty American amateur selection in their last encounter.
Some of those American fighters have turned pro in the meantime and start making noise.They will earn good bucks and people -especially fight fans who have no clue about boxing outside their limited world- will praise their names.
Nobody will ever hear of those game Belarussian fighters who beat them,but who cant turn pro due to various reasons.
Does the name Gaidarbekov sound familiar to you? NO???
Lacy?? Yep! That one-dimensional guy who had been considered to be the next undisputed ruler of the roost by many esb posters here before Calzaghe taught him a lesson in boxing.
You know, Gaidarbekov was Lacy's last opponent at the amateurs.Aforementioned Gaidarbekov schooled and stopped Lacy.
I love the pro game,but I am well aware of its limitations and weak spots.
An decent fighter can go very far with good matchmaking and a powerful promoter in the paid ranks.
A decent fighter at the amateurs wont win any important tournament there.He has to fight the best rivals in order to win a medal,cup,or whatever.
Germany's best amateurs would hardly be able to win any encounter with the best fighters of Moscow,let alone Russia.
Nonetheless,Germany is probably the second most important fight market at the pros.
Russia has great fighters.They are just not marketable outside Russia(of course there are some exceptions).

[matt_maxx]

Russia's pro fight market is tiny and totally insignificant.....
Russia has great fighters.They are just not marketable outside Russia(of course there are some exceptions).

I expected Russia to be the next big market in boxing. But I still dont understand why there is not much happening. It´s a huge country with a large population. Take a wealthy promoter, a couple of good amateurs and turn them into pro´s. Then find a TV channel which covers the fights and I am sure it will create a boom as soon as they win a world title. Sounds may be easier than it is. But Russia has all what it takes to realise it. Good amateurs, a population that will appreciate a national boxing hero and some petro-millionairs a la Abramowitsch who could get it off the ground. I really belief that Russia is boxing-wise fructuous farmland that just waits to get worked. Russian boxers dont have to be marketable outside of Russia at first. They have to be marketable in Russia. First build a strong domestic pro market. Get a title. Fight othet title holders and the names of russian pro boxers will get their recognition.

[Kolya]

No, he wasn't. He was saying Russians had "the true mental toughness" that some other peoples didn't have.



Russia GDP/head = $14,705
Mexico GDP/head = $14,120

(2007 IMF estimates)



Let me guess...you boys are Russian, right? Your English is pretty good, I'll give you that!

And when I said Russia is far wealthier, I'm referring to the country's government and how much they return into their sports programs. Mexico returns almost none; they have to use it to stop drug cartels from taking over the country. Hence why Mexicans have no incentive to stay amateur, their government doesn't subsidise them the way European countries or Russia do.

[Odo]

I expected Russia to be the next big market in boxing. But I still dont understand why there is not much happening. It´s a huge country with a large population. Take a wealthy promoter, a couple of good amateurs and turn them into pro´s. Then find a TV channel which covers the fights and I am sure it will create a boom as soon as they win a world title. Sounds may be easier than it is. But Russia has all what it takes to realise it. Good amateurs, a population that will appreciate a national boxing hero and some petro-millionairs a la Abramowitsch who could get it off the ground. I really belief that Russia is boxing-wise fructuous farmland that just waits to get worked. Russian boxers dont have to be marketable outside of Russia at first. They have to be marketable in Russia. First build a strong domestic pro market. Get a title. Fight othet title holders and the names of russian pro boxers will get their recognition.

Interesting post,matt!

You may be right in saying that a capable promoter with money backup could get pro boxing off the ground in Russia,but I for one have my doubts.Russian tv channels are not ready to pay decent sums of money for top fight events.
Russian oligarchs prefer spending big bucks on western soccer clubs to investing in the pro box circuit back home in Russia.Whats more pro boxing is still not a mayor player among Russian men' s favourite sport team.
Anyway! I wouldnt mind to be proved wrong with my pessimistic view on Russia's pro box market.