Archie Moore vs. Ron Lyle

[cross_trainer]

Predictions?

[unitas]

Archie is too cagy. ud.

[janitor]

One thing that the old mongoose could do was decision big punchers. Chances are that he would take a UD.

[Marciano Frazier]

Moore by UD.

[Marciano Frazier]

I respect the two previous predictions but disagree completely. I don't see any way Moore could hang in there for long with Lyle. If Lyle had fought in a different era we just might be calling him another Sonny Liston. He gave Ali and Foreman very tough fights. He was a frighteningly powerful man and had underrated boxing skills.
I think you're overrating Lyle here. He was soundly beaten by both Quarry and Young. He was really only ahead before being stopped against Ali because Ali had gone Rope-a-Dope happy and fooled around for large stretches trying to use the Rope-a-Dope when it obviously wasn't going to work, and Lyle was aware of it in advance.
Lyle was a dangerous hitter, no question, but I don't think he was really on a top-flight level in that respect; his knockout average wasn't particularly impressive at just over 60%, and in all his major fights, the only time he ever actually stopped anyone was when he narrowly escaped being knocked out himself to take out the shaky-chinned Shavers.

If Patterson could take Moore out in five rounds then Lyle could get him out of there sooner.

Lyle KO 4 Moore
This is faulty logic. Patterson and Lyle had widely contrasting styles. One might also say, had the fight not actually happened, that if Patterson could take out Moore in five rounds, Marciano would take him out sooner. Patterson was a blazing fast swarmer who could pick holes in Moore's defense and overwhelm him with barrages. Lyle couldn't do the same thing, being, by comparison, a ponderous fighter. The strongest analogy between Lyle and any of Moore's opponents, in fact, is with Valdes, who Moore soundly defeated twice.

[rekcutnevets]

I think Lyle would eventually catch him upside the head.

Lyle by ko.

[Marciano Frazier]

In an earlier post I confused you with someone named - Prime Frazier DID beat Pr. I am really sorry. You are a gentleman and a nice guy. I guess I got confused because this guy has "Frazier" in his profile. Please accept my apologies. It's fine. I didn't actually notice you saying anything I found insulting or offensive, anyway.

[janitor]

In an earlier post I confused you with someone named - Prime Frazier DID beat Pr.

Hang your head in shame.

[mcvey]

Predictions?
The Mongoose by u dec,ponderous punchers didnt shine against Archie,Marciano beat him with pressure Lyle wouldnt be able to apply it against the cagy Moore.

[Minotauro]

I'm a huge Archie Moore fan but believe Lyle would win probably early he's to big and hits really hard he took Shavers best shots and stood toe to toe with Foreman.

[combatesdeboxeo]

I'm a huge Archie Moore fan but believe Lyle would win probably early he's to big and hits really hard he took Shavers best shots and stood toe to toe with Foreman.

i agree completely , lyle is seriously underrated. ron was a very very strong 220 pounder, he was very very muscular, he was a boxer-puncher, and he could take a punch, lyle in other era pre 70s would have been other foreman or liston.
ron would give the hell to marciano and liston . styles make fights

[Surf-Bat]

Archie by UD. He would show Lyle things he'd never dreamed of in there; tricks that only the cagiest and most experienced fighters know. Ones that Archie learned through years and years of pain and coming up the hard way. Ron Lyle had a cakewalk of a career compared to what Archie had to go through.

I like Lyle a lot, but he's a grade schooler compared to Moore. Lyle is strong and a big puncher and as such has a shot, but most likely the Professor schools the kid in this one.

[My2Sense]

Lyle wasn't really that special IMO. He gets (over)rated based mainly on performances in LOSING efforts to Ali and Foreman. In reality, he didn't have that many big actual wins, and he had pretty embarrassing upset losses to Quarry, Young, and Lynn Ball.

In a nutshell, I don't think Lyle was any better than other HW contenders that Moore beat, like Baker and Valdes. I'd take Moore by UD.

[combatesdeboxeo]

Lyle wasn't really that special IMO. He gets (over)rated based mainly on performances in LOSING efforts to Ali and Foreman. In reality, he didn't have that many big actual wins, and he had pretty embarrassing upset losses to Quarry, Young, and Lynn Ball.

In a nutshell, I don't think Lyle was any better than other HW contenders that Moore beat, like Baker and Valdes. I'd take Moore by UD.
:patsch:patsch:patsch:rofl:rofl:rofl:lol:

[he grant]

Ron Lyle would get pounded ... too slow to hit this master ..

[My2Sense]

:patsch:patsch:patsch:rofl:rofl:rofl:lol:

I'm looking forward to seeing your list of fighters Lyle beat that were as good as Ezzard Charles.

This should be interesting.

[tommygun711]

I'm looking forward to seeing your list of fighters Lyle beat that were as good as Ezzard Charles.

This should be interesting.

nobody :rofl

although bugner, shavers, and bonavena aren't bad wins, they don't compare to Charles at all.

I think he's basing his opinion on the foreman and Ali fights. Which hebshowed bad stamina and an inconsistent defense.

Lyle was a warrior, but I think he drops a desicion against Moore because Moore was too crafty and smart to slug with Lyle. I also think Lyle was way too slow for Moore. Moore would counter him very very easily. Lyle could get outboxed very easily, he was very flawed..
Moore UD 15 Lyle

[MRBILL]

Predictions?

A motivated Lyle is too big and strong for Moore..... But a lackluster Lyle does just enough to drop a decision to the smaller but better boxer Moore... A stinky draw is in the making here... WORD!

MR.BILL:hat

[Seamus]

Lyle never KO'd a fighter in the same league as, or within two leagues of, Moore.

Where does this fiction about Lyle being some kinda KO artist come from?

[SuzieQ49]

Where does this fiction about Lyle being some kinda KO artist come from?

A. George Foreman Fans

B. The misconception that being able to do 1,500 pushups a day in prison = Titanic Punching Power

[TheGreatA]

Moore probably outsmarts the bigger and stronger Lyle to a close decision win. Moore did not have the chin of Quarry or Young though, and he wasn't exactly a fleet-footed survival artist, so he could be stopped also. Likely he would just have too much experience and smarts for Lyle who was a very late starter in the game, and got by mostly with what he had learned "on the job" and his physical ability. Moore might get dropped here, but he would fight his way back as he did many times as Lyle begins to fade and turn predictable.

Lyle is better than Valdes in my opinion but not by a whole lot, and he didn't have an outstanding jab like Nino. Less skilled than Baker, but more durable and stronger.

[combatesdeboxeo]

A motivated Lyle is too big and strong for Moore..... But a lackluster Lyle does just enough to drop a decision to the smaller but better boxer Moore... A stinky draw is in the making here... WORD!

MR.BILL:hat
:good

[combatesdeboxeo]

Moore probably outsmarts the bigger and stronger Lyle to a close decision win. Moore did not have the chin of Quarry or Young though, and he wasn't exactly a fleet-footed survival artist, so he could be stopped also. Likely he would just have too much experience and smarts for Lyle who was a very late starter in the game, and got by mostly with what he had learned "on the job" and his physical ability. Moore might get dropped here, but he would fight his way back as he did many times as Lyle begins to fade and turn predictable.

Lyle is better than Valdes in my opinion but not by a whole lot, and he didn't have an outstanding jab like Nino. Less skilled than Baker, but more durable and stronger.

could be. good opinion

[mcvey]

One thing that the old mongoose could do was decision big punchers. Chances are that he would take a UD.

I agree!:good

[red cobra]

Moore should have been too "wily", "crafty" and "foxy" for Lyle..but it would have to be an A-Game Moore to sneak a decision, because I have recollections of a guy named Yvon Durelle who found the sweet spot vs Archie several times and almost pulled it off...and Lyle, regarless of his limitations and shortcomings as a fighter, was a big, strong, BIG punching mother...and Moore, as stated earlier, didn't have a Young or Quarry type chin. Lyle's ko's of Middleton, Mathis and especially Shavers were noteworthy..and he did decl Foreman twice....so Archie would have quite a dangerous mission ahead of him.

[The Mongoose]

Moore cruises to a UD or a late stoppage.

Moore slipping the giant Valdez and backing him up with his power

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Quarry making Lyle lool foolish

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[The Mongoose]

...and Moore, as stated earlier, didn't have a Young or Quarry type chin. Lyle's ko's of Middleton, Mathis and especially Shavers were noteworthy..and he did decl Foreman twice....so Archie would have quite a dangerous mission ahead of him.

Quarry didn't have to take that much punishment against Lyle, he was slipping and rolling everything he was throwing at him.

[he grant]

Lyle never KO'd a fighter in the same league as, or within two leagues of, Moore.

Where does this fiction about Lyle being some kinda KO artist come from?

Do you understand the difference between having a powerful punch and being able to KO an opponent ? This is an honest question since SQ clearly does not .

Lyle was a limited fighter for several reasons. He started his career very late. He suffered a near deth stabbing prison that handicapped him every bit as much as the shooting did Cleveland Williams ... that being said, he remained a terrific power puncher.

George Foreman has said time and again that no one ever hit him like Ron Lyle did. Joe Bugner said the same. Earnie Shavers said Lyle was the hardest puncher he ever faced .. these are simply the facts ...

Lyle was a limited fighter, slow of foot and with average hand speed. He was however, very big, strong, game and a terrific puncher.

[Bummy Davis]

Lyle was a decent puncher not a killer puncher but he was a strong guy,that being said Jerry Quarry out boxed a prime Lyle, hurt him several times and dominated him. Moore was too slick for Lyle and faced harder punchers than Lyle. Lyle was no walk in the park but Quarry who was about the same size as Moore handled Lyle easily, I think Moore takes a UD

[combatesdeboxeo]

Lyle was a decent puncher not a killer puncher but he was a strong guy,that being said Jerry Quarry out boxed a prime Lyle, hurt him several times and dominated him. Moore was too slick for Lyle and faced harder punchers than Lyle. Lyle was no walk in the park but Quarry who was about the same size as Moore handled Lyle easily, I think Moore takes a UD

quarry had better chin than moore by a mile

[Surf-Bat]

quarry had better chin than moore by a mile

Hi Combat. That may be so, but it was also easier to HIT by a mile (Quarry not being one tenth the boxer that Moore was). And the consequences for swinging on and missing Archie Moore were twice what they were for swinging on and missing Jerry Quarry. Pinpoint counters to every vulnerable spot on your face and anatomy.

[My2Sense]

Moore cruises to a UD or a late stoppage.

Moore slipping the giant Valdez and backing him up with his power

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Quarry making Lyle lool foolish

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Bingo.

I'm still waiting for combatesdeboxeo's list of Lyle victims that were better than Charles. :deal

[My2Sense]

although bugner, shavers, and bonavena aren't bad wins, they don't compare to Charles at all.


That's right, they compare more to Hurricane Jackson, Heinz Neuhaus, and Don Cockell, who were all top 5 contenders when Valdes beat them.

[My2Sense]

quarry had better chin than moore by a mile

Yep, here's Quarry's "miles better" chin at 7:03:

703SI9FdUyw

:roll:

[tommygun711]

That's right, they compare more to Hurricane Jackson, Heinz Neuhaus, and Don Cockell, who were all top 5 contenders when Valdes beat them.

Pretty much.
Although I think they are better then those 5 contenders.

[Duodenum]

JQ may have had a better chin than Moore. However, Hatchetman Sheppard said Archie was the hardest puncher he ever fought, with either hand. (This is significant, because Hatchetman took on Moore and JJW in back to back fights, and took on each twice.) Lowry said Moore was the hardest puncher he ever fought. Only Moore and Walcott were ever able to drop Marciano. It may not be a given that Ron has the greater firepower here. Defense, hand speed and all purpose skill are clearly in the Mongoose's favor. Moore's reach was just an inch less than Lyle's. Ron was first schooled by Young at a time when Jimmy weighed around 200. Peralta was 195 then barely 200 the two times they squared off, getting a draw in the rematch. We've all seen what Jerry did to him. Size alone wouldn't do it for Lyle. Archie beat up and took out bigger heavyweights than Ron.

[Foreman Hook]

Ronny Lyle KO EARLY.
Too big, too strong, too Powerful....WORD!!



Foreman Hooooook!:hat

[combatesdeboxeo]

Yep, here's Quarry's "miles better" chin at 7:03:

703SI9FdUyw

:roll:

and this video? demonstrates ? what? this video doesn´t demonstrate shit

moore never faced chuvalo or frazier . and quarry never faced marciano. the facts are marciano knocked moore out and frazier couldn´t "ko" quarry. tko, not ko.even patterson knocked moore out faster than marciano did. patterson could not ko quarry. and joe frazier would ko moore for sure. chuvalo was very solid, he had granite chin, moore might not ko chuvalo even in dreams, chuvalo might well ko moore.
even earnie shavers could not ko quarry. quarry had better chin than moore.

[combatesdeboxeo]

Bingo.

I'm still waiting for combatesdeboxeo's list of Lyle victims that were better than Charles. :deal
i never said it. i said that ron lyle was much better than valdez, and much stronger. if lyle could knock down george foreman more than once , lyle had the power to knock out moore and any rival of moore

[The Mongoose]

That's right, they compare more to Hurricane Jackson, Heinz Neuhaus, and Don Cockell, who were all top 5 contenders when Valdes beat them.

I think Valdes was better than Lyle and achieved more, less consistent but he did fight something like 20 top 10 contenders in his day. Your going to win some, lose some at a pace like that. Backyard win or not, next to Marciano, he's the only fighter to UD Charles at this time without controversy. Ray, Layne, and Walcott's point wins were heavily disputed.

[My2Sense]

and this video? demonstrates ? what?

That your claim of Quarry having a "miles better" chin is BS.


moore never faced chuvalo or frazier . and quarry never faced marciano.

You mean just like Lyle never faced Valdes or Baker?

the facts are marciano knocked moore out and frazier couldn´t "ko" quarry. tko, not ko.even patterson knocked moore out faster than marciano did. patterson could not ko quarry. and joe frazier would ko moore for sure. chuvalo was very solid, he had granite chin, moore might not ko chuvalo even in dreams, chuvalo might well ko moore.


Speculation about what "would've" and "could've" happened aren't "facts."

i never said it. i said that ron lyle was much better than valdez, and much stronger.

And without being able to point to any win that was as big as Valdes', your claim continues to be completely baseless.

if lyle could knock down george foreman more than once , lyle had the power to knock out moore and any rival of moore[/B]

Just like if Nino Valdes had the power to blow out Hurricane Jackson early, then he had the power to stop Moore as well.

Oh, wait...

[combatesdeboxeo]

You mean just like Lyle never faced Valdes or Baker?
not, lyle faced much better guys

Speculation about what "would've" and "could've" happened aren't "facts."it is the easy response when you have not argument ... " it is speculation" ali would beat david jaco , it would be speculation too, but you know that he would do. you are a hypocrite simply.


And without being able to point to any win that was as big as Valdes', your claim continues to be completely baseless.
earnie shavers,oscar bonavena,jimmy ellis... all them would kick the ass of valdez, valdez was 6´3 and 209 pounds, joe bugner was 6´4 and 230 pounds .


Just like if Nino Valdes had the power to blow out Hurricane Jackson early, then he had the power to stop Moore as well.
so you are comparing george foreman(who had x 4 better chin,who was x4 stronger and x4 harder puncher ) with jackson or moore.:rofl:rofl:rofl
game over

[PowerPuncher]

I think Moore wins as he has much better skills but I do think Lyle was a load better than Valdes. who was a terrible fighter/boxer. Lyle has great speed for a big man, not a massive puncher but enough to KO Moore if he lands regularly. Moore does have a somewhat suspect chin and was KO'd plenty of times. Archie obviously has a big skill and ring smarts advantages, which I'd lean in favour of here.

[My2Sense]

not, lyle faced much better guys

Which of them did he beat?

it is the easy response when you have not argument ...

No, it's the CORRECT response when someone else fails to provide something to respond with an argument to in the first place.

you are a hypocrite simply.

No, that would the person who says "the facts are.." and then is reduced to posting his own speculation. Which was you.

earnie shavers,oscar bonavena,jimmy ellis... all them would kick the ass of valdez, ...

Prove it.

valdez was 6´3 and 209 pounds, joe bugner was 6´4 and 230 pounds .


Which makes him equal or bigger size than other fighters who beat Bugner. What's your point?

so you are comparing george foreman(who had x 4 better chin, ...

:lol::rofl

You mean this "4 x better chin"?

10ZIxV9KWgY
WZRYXNa5cAk

[combatesdeboxeo]

I think Moore wins as he has much better skills marvin hagler had better skill than bob foster too but all the forum did pick foster to knock him out,moore had much more skill than marciano too. moore was a lhw not a hw. guys, the weights class are for obvious motives
Lyle has great speed for a big man, not a massive puncher but enough to KO Moore if he lands regularly. lyle was a great puncher and ,moore didn´t have a good chin and he wasn´t even a hw, so lyle might ko him for sure. Moore does have a somewhat suspect chin and was KO'd plenty of times.:deal
Archie moore weighed 188 pound in the hw, lyle 220 pounds of pure muscle,32 pounds difference. and it was his natural weight, he was fast and powerful, he had long reach and he took shots from foreman,shavers,quarry,bugner....
lyle by ko no contest

[combatesdeboxeo]

Which of them did he beat?
bonavena,ellis,bugner and shavers




Prove it.
again the same thing, everybody know that jimmy ellis,bonavena,joe bugner or earnie shavers were better than valdez, you have no argument, according to your stupid theory i can´t say " tony galento would beat mike tyson" because they will never fight and i can´t "prove" it. but he would win for sure. but your only escape is this silly thing, because you don´t want to recognize that i am right.

Which makes him equal or bigger size than other fighters who beat Bugner. What's your point?
you said "lyle never did beat a guy big as valdez", wrong, lyle did beat better boxers and a bigger and stronger guy.


You mean this "4 x better chin"?
if you are insinuating that george foreman didn´t have a great chin, you are the biggest joke on this forum. he was "ko" just by ali,(he wasn´t ko really, he was down because he was very tired) ali tried to knock him out early and he could not do shit. he was down for !!!! 1 second!! against young because he was bad mentally and very tired too, just muhammad ali could put foreman down for the account and it was because ali had the chin and the stamina to survive and tire prime foreman.

[My2Sense]

bonavena,ellis,bugner and shavers

And what wins did those guys have that were bigger than Valdes' over Charles?

again the same thing, everybody know that jimmy ellis,bonavena,joe bugner or earnie shavers were better than valdez,

Really? What proof do you have of that?

you have no argument,

Yes I do, it was this:
I'm looking forward to seeing your list of fighters Lyle beat that were as good as Ezzard Charles.

This should be interesting.
...which you had no answer for.


you said "lyle never did beat a guy big as valdez",

No I didn't. Now you've just sunk to the level of blatantly lying. :-(


if you are insinuating that george foreman didn´t have a great chin, ...

Which I'm not. So whatever you followed that with is irrelevant.

[combatesdeboxeo]

And what wins did those guys have that were bigger than Valdes' over Charles?
shavers destroyed jimmy ellis(even ellis was heavier than charles), ken norton ,jimmy young, roy williams and he gave the hell to prime larry holmes and lyle. he faced great hws. many people think that bonavena was stolen against frazier . anyway it doesn´t demonstrate nothing because they didn´t fight the same rivals. charles was more skilled but shavers might ko charles in 1 round, we never will know.
ellis, bonavena,bugner,peralta , shavers..they were greater than valdez for sure and lyle did start his pro career in his 30s, imagine what he might do in his 20s. you are saying that valdez was better than ellis,shavers,bonavena,peralta or bugner based on he did beat charles... it is silly because
1_they never fought,
2_maybe lyle might ko charles and you never will know.
3_example:buster douglas knocked tyson out, but douglas is not better than tyson. norton did beat ali twice really, norton is not better than ali
.frazier and norton did beat ali, foreman didn´t, but they are not better than george.valdez did beat charles but he is not greater than him, simply styles make fights
so your argument is = garbage
and yes you did insinuate that foreman didn´t have much better chin than moore.


No I didn't. Now you've just sunk to the level of blatantly lying. :-( i am not a liar, maybe i didn´t understand you correctly because i am spanish,my idiom is not english
you cut the part what you want of my phrases , and it change the sense of the phrase. because i did put my explanations, but you cut the part that does not benefit you. so you are the liar

[My2Sense]

shavers destroyed jimmy ellis(even ellis was heavier than charles), ken norton ,jimmy young, roy williams

Just like Valdes destroyed Charles, Jackson, Neuhaus, Cockell, Erskine, Carter, McMurtry, London, etc.

Only one of the names you listed was a HOFer like Charles, and none had the distinction of having been a unified lineal champ like Charles.

anyway it doesn´t demonstrate nothing because they didn´t fight the same rivals. charles was more skilled but shavers might ko charles in 1 round, we never will know.

You mean just like Valdes or Baker might KO Shavers in 1 round, we'll never know?

ellis, bonavena,bugner,peralta , shavers..they were greater than valdez for sure

Again, the same unsubstantiated and undefendable claim.

Where is all the proof of "everyone" you say "knows" those guys were better than Valdes?

and lyle did start his pro career in his 30s, imagine what he might do in his 20s.

What does imagining what he "might've" done matter? He didn't start his career until his 30s, and that's the fighter he was.

you are saying that valdez was better than ellis,shavers,bonavena,peralta or bugner based on he did beat charles...

As opposed to saying those guys are better than Valdes based on absolutely nothing.

valdez did beat charles but he is not greater than him, ...

I didn't say he was greater than Charles, I said he was greater than the fighters who never proved they were good enough to win fights of that magnitude - ie: Bugner, Bonavena, etc.


so your argument is = garbage

And your argument = non-existent.

and yes you did insinuate that foreman didn´t have much better chin than moore.

No, I compared Foreman's chin with Jackson's, not Moore's.

[My2Sense]

you cut the part what you want of my phrases , and it change the sense of the phrase. because i did put my explanations, but you cut the part that does not benefit you.

And what phrases did I change the "sense" of?

so you are the liar

No I'm not. The liar is the one who fabricates quotes, which is what you've done.

[combatesdeboxeo]

Just like Valdes destroyed Charles, Jackson, Neuhaus, Cockell, Erskine, Carter, McMurtry, London, etc.
1_ valdes didn´t destroy charles(his best victory), he won by ud .
ellis, young, bugner,roy williams were better than these guys.
Only one of the names you listed was a HOFer like Charles, and none had the distinction of having been a unified lineal champ like Charles.
charles in the golden era would have been a joke in the hw.


You mean just like Valdes or Baker might KO Shavers in 1 round, we'll never know? it is less probable, shavers had ultimate hitting power, these guys did not have, and they are nobody.



Where is all the proof of "everyone" you say "knows" those guys were better than Valdes? checks the forum



Lyle didn't start his career until his 30s
lyle did start his pro career in 1971 and he was born in 1941, he was 30 years old.

those guys are better than Valdes based on absolutely nothing.
based on they fought in a better era, they fought great fights against better fighters than valdez did, if you can´t understand it you have a problem.


I didn't say he was greater than Charles, I said he was greater than the fighters who never proved they were good enough to win fights of that magnitude - ie: Bugner, Bonavena, etc.
according to you, my argument is speculation ..valdes did beat charles but you are saying that he was not better than charles, but bonavena,bugner,shavers,peralta,lyle.. never faced charles or valdes... but you says that valdes was better than them basing on? your ignorence or speculation?






I compared Foreman's chin with Jackson's, not Moore's.
even more pathetic


learn boxing please.

[combatesdeboxeo]

And what phrases did I change the "sense" of?
every phrase that you answered


No I'm not. .
yes you are,
and you put the part that you want.

[My2Sense]

ellis, young, bugner,roy williams were better than these guys.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim. :roll:

charles in the golden era would have been a joke in the hw.

Even more of an unsubstantiated claim.

it is less probable,

Why? Shavers had a suspect chin and a history of being KO'd.

shavers had ultimate hitting power, these guys did not have,

But guys like Quarry and Ron Stander did?

and they are nobody.

Now you're just descending to the level of childish stupidity. :roll:

checks the forum

Where?? SHOW ME the thread where a multitude of posters state outright that Ellis, Shavers, Bugner, and Peralta were better than Valdes or Baker.

based on they fought in a better era, they fought great fights against better fighters than valdez did, if you can´t understand it you have a problem.

Yes, my "problem" is that you've failed to substantiate nearly everything you've claimed since you appeared in this thread.

but you says that valdes was better than them basing on? your ignorence or speculation?

Neither. It's based on the fact that he was as much, or more accomplished and successful than them at the world class level, and was more highly rated and for longer than most of them were in their careers.


even more pathetic

Why?

learn boxing please.

I have. That's how I learned that Jackson was renowned for having a great chin. If you bothered to learn boxing you would've learned that as well.

every phrase that you answered

Again, you still can't provide an example of anything, even when backed into a corner and forced to.

yes you are,


You're responses in this post have failed utterly to show how.

[mdolan]

and they are nobody.


what a stupid and ignorant comment. :roll: Valdez and baker were rated as highly in their own time as any of the fighters you listed