The future of MMA-

[Utter1]

What does the future hold for the next 10 to 15 years....will the sport slide backwards or move forward. Or could it stay the same.

Will the next generation of fighters become better.

Will UFC be the sole power still?

[québecwarrior]

Move forward. Now, nearly each division king is unstoppable(Penn,St. Pierre, Silva, Fedor) Machida could be unstoppable at 205..

But in 15 years, the like of Penn or St. Pierre, won't be as rare, that will be much harder to be an unstoppable force because now every child will learn all aspect for MMA in their youth for those who want to fight in MMA. The majority of the athlete in UFC now, were learning just one category when they began to train. Now, when you begin to train to fight in MMA, you train in MMA class with all discipline.
That's gonna be amazing, the talent pool in 15 years.

[BewareofDawg]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.

[cruisecrweight]

Im not neccessarily convinced that the next generation of fighters will be better. There is something to be said about guys that work there fighting style around one discipline like you see with college wrestlers, bjj blackbelts etc....Some of the best fighters in the game today come from a single combat sport background(Randy, Brock, Fedor etc....).

I think MMA standup will continues to evolve. Only know are certain fighters starting to realize the importance of distance, effective use of the jab, footwork etc... We will see the standup game become more refined and not just "bombs" being thrown.

As for the popularity of MMA? Who knows. The UFC is not here to make MMA popular, they are in the business of promoting there own brand. MMA even to this day has still very far to go if it even wants to reach boxing let alone become a mainstream household sport like the NFL.

[INFIGHT]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.

:patsch

[BewareofDawg]

:patsch
Whats wrong with what I said? Its true and not insulting to anyone. Why do you think 99% of the Defensive Backs, running backs, safeties and wide recievers in the NFL are black? :patsch

[BewareofDawg]

Do you really believe that if you took every defensive back out of the NFl and gave them 5 years of MMA training that Chris Leben would have a chance in hell in ever fighting in the UFC???

[cruisecrweight]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.

Nobody is going to choose MMA over football. Athletic ability is not the only requirement for becoming a good fighter. What all prize fighters have in common, is toughness, scrapiness whatever you wanna call it. They were born to fight.

[BewareofDawg]

Nobody is going to choose MMA over football. Athletic ability is not the only requirement for becoming a good fighter. What all prize fighters have in common, is toughness, scrapiness whatever you wanna call it. They were born to fight.
First of all, I said "IF". I didn't say anyone would necessarily choose MMA first. But the bigger the sport gets and the more accepted it gets, the talent pool and the raw natural athleticism of fighters would become much greater. And yes, a natural fighter loses to a natural athletic fighter 8 times out of 10. :deal

And Athleticism is only an attribute and there are many intangibles involved as well, but if you are faster, more explosive, quicker, more flexible and dynamic and just as skilled...you are not losing very often :deal

[cruisecrweight]

Whats wrong with what I said? Its true and not insulting to anyone. Why do you think 99% of the Defensive Backs, running backs, safeties and wide recievers in the NFL are black? :patsch


Your being discriminatory but certainly not racist. Ive read articles stating that better white high school atheletes have been overlooked by big college programs in favour of less deserving black kids. I don't know the percentages, but im sure such cases do exist. Are blacks on average better atheletes, possibly? Im no expert on the matter.

[cruisecrweight]

First of all, I said "IF". I didn't say anyone would necessarily choose MMA first. But the bigger the sport gets and the more accepted it gets, the talent pool and the raw natural athleticism of fighters would become much greater. And yes, a natural fighter loses to a natural athletic fighter 8 times out of 10. :deal

And Athleticism is only an attribute and there are many intangibles involved as well, but if you are faster, more explosive, quicker, more flexible and dynamic and just as skilled...you are not losing very often :deal


Boxing is still getting the best talent pool as a far as prizefighting is concerned. If MMA surpasses boxing on the payscale then we will see a shift. MMA will have the better more gifted fighters and boxing will not.

[BewareofDawg]

Your be discriminatory but certainly not racist. Ive read articles stating that better white high school atheletes have been overlooked by big college programs in favour of less deserving black kids. I don't know the percentages, but im sure such cases do exist. Are blacks on average better atheletes, possibly? Im no expert on the matter.
I'm not an expert either. My bad, lets forget about race. I'll just make my point as while the sport continues to grow, more and more people will be attracted to it, so the talent pool will be much greater and even today's top fighters may one day look kind of basic in comparison.

[cruisecrweight]

I'm not an expert either. My bad, lets forget about race. I'll just make my point as while the sport continues to grow, more and more people will be attracted to it, so the talent pool will be much greater and even today's top fighters may one day look kind of basic in comparison.



Im not saying that we should drop it, a healthy discussion about race is a neccessary thing(maybe not on ESB) but in society it needs to be addressed. Like i said im far from an expert, and even though i do have an opinion it is far from scientific. Is GSP more atheletic then certain fighers in the 168-175 division in boxing, ya most definetly, but could he become the light heavyweight champion of the world or even a serious contender in a few years of training, i would say probably not.

[québecwarrior]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.
Black person have an advantage in speed and agility, yes.
Caucasian person have an advantage in strenght and eye-coordination...

Asian person seem to be fuckin good in those competition where they dip in that pool. Would that help them in mma?

The quality that requiert to be an NFL player is such different than what it requiert to be a great MMA fighter...

Hockey player could be as good as MMA fighter as an NFL player would be..

[Polymath]

Whats wrong with what I said? Its true and not insulting to anyone. Why do you think 99% of the Defensive Backs, running backs, safeties and wide recievers in the NFL are black? :patsch

I think thats a load of crap tbh. Most of the best wrestlers are caucasion anyway. NFL = overrated.

[Polymath]

I think MMA is going to regress. Cross training from a young age will suck - who wants to see tons of fighters with texactly the same style? I want Cro Cop versus Coleman.

[québecwarrior]

I think MMA is going to regress. Cross training from a young age will suck - who wants to see tons of fighters with texactly the same style? I want Cro Cop versus Coleman.
you are always gonna see fighter whos gonna be great at striking vs one whos great on the ground. The difference will just be that they arent punk in other category..

[cruisecrweight]

I think thats a load of crap tbh. Most of the best wrestlers are caucasion anyway. NFL = overrated.


Alot more whites then blacks are in in colleges with good wrestling programs. That might be a pretty big reason.

[BewareofDawg]

I think thats a load of crap tbh. Most of the best wrestlers are caucasion anyway. NFL = overrated.
I was tempted to respond only with laughing emoticons to this post. It could be because wrestling has a predominantly caucasian interest. As for you saying the NFL is "overrated"...that is just wrong. The NFL is home to some of the purest athletes in the world.

[Polymath]

Russian wrestlers > American wrestlers


Being well rounded is overrated as well.

[Polymath]

I was tempted to respond only with laughing emoticons to this post. It could be because wrestling has a predominantly caucasian interest. As for you saying the NFL is "overrated"...that is just wrong. The NFL is home to some of the purest athletes in the world.

Theyre good at being NFL players. No guarantee theyde be good wrestlers. Different types of talent. Next please :hat

[BewareofDawg]

you are always gonna see fighter whos gonna be great at striking vs one whos great on the ground. The difference will just be that they arent punk in other category..
Wrong. GSP isn't an exceptional athlete on a worldly basis, don't get me wrong he is a great athlete compared to anyone, but he is just exceptional in MMA. Why? Because MMA hasn't been around long enough to attract the best athletes. The more "athletes" MMA attracts the more you will see fighters like GSP who will be great on the feet or on the ground. :deal

[BewareofDawg]

Theyre good at being NFL players. No guarantee theyde be good wrestlers. Different types of talent. Next please :hat
Next please? :lol: Wow you really disproved a terrible falsehood there!!!!

You're talking out of your ass, plain and simple.

[BewareofDawg]

And actually the reflexes and physical gifts that a running back, or defensive back or safety are very relative to those needed to be a great Mixed Martial Artist.

[québecwarrior]

Wrong. GSP isn't an exceptional athlete on a worldly basis, don't get me wrong he is a great athlete compared to anyone, but he is just exceptional in MMA. Why? Because MMA hasn't been around long enough to attract the best athletes. The more "athletes" MMA attracts the more you will see fighters like GSP who will be great on the feet or on the ground. :deal
GSP isnt an exceptional athlete? Are you kidding me! He could make our wrestling team in CANADA for olympic? He is holding his own in boxing with guy like Sebastien Demers
3 years from now, he was playing b-ball on a court with a fuckin 11.5 feet basket, the guy HARDLY play b-ball at all, and he was doing dunk easily. That's just ridiculous.

[québecwarrior]

And actually the reflexes and physical gifts that a running back, or defensive back or safety are very relative to those needed to be a great Mixed Martial Artist.
and the cardio and hand eye coordination + their toughness and agility of NHL players are relative to important quality in MMA..

Black don't born with better ability for fighting...
how's being a running back will help you in BJJ? Intelligence is a very important thing in BJJ, caucasian are supposly more intelligent, so the black people would be at disavantadge? That statement is just as wrong as yours...

[boxingcar]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.

that's a flawd point of view. Here's why.
MMA is one of the rare sports which gives you the opportunity to defeat an opponent with multi-stylistic combinations.

Youy know what that means ?...It means that (for example) when you're confronted with a top athlete (and a super fast one )...such as this one..
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

ANYTHING can STILL happen. The other guy isn't forced to deal with his opponent's physical advantages.

(UNLIKE boxing , or kickboxing)

As a matter of fact , you'll never see a "shift" in this sport. (like boxing had at one point) precisely because of the very nature of the sport itself. Not to mention...(unlike boxing) , NO ONE IS BANNED from participating. (like eastern europeans were , and cubans during the 60's..)

Today , you already have the russians , you already have brazilians (them alone , have years of experienced in bjj)..

Big NFL type guys (at the moment...Lesnar is a great example ) WILL NEVER have the monopoly of this sport. they'll never annihilate the competition because the guy who ends up winning , isn't necesarilly the most physically gifted. The guy who ends up having the most consistent record is usually the most experienced on the ground , and the one who has the smartest gameplan.

Also , the bigger they are , the slower they get...no matter how athletic they are. Yes , Lesnar moves pretty fucking fast for a guy of his size , he's very athletic , but fact remains...he still gasses fast , and his punches will never be as fast as a lighter guy... he'll have the strenght advantage , he can also lay and pray on smaller HWs...but as soon as he'll be confronted to a smart and super technical and endurant hw...he'll mostly likely be fucked.

In the end , it's ironic...it's a bit like the NFL...without a solid quarterback , the entire team plays differently...

Or in soccer..(both collective sports) but in soccer , all races are dominating. there's not a monopoly of a "superrior athlete"...it doesn't work that way. why ? because if you're not playing smart , and if you don't have a collective game the team is fucked.

In mma , athleticism is great but if you have shit for brains you're not gonna last long no matter of physically gifted you are.

However , MAYBE , there could be a shift for the AMERICAN participants. (more afro americans and less white americans). that's the only huge difference. But that still would be irrelevant since MMA (unlike boxing) is already working on a full international level. Many different countries are participating without any disavantages (like boxing used to have back then).

So instead of a fake "world champion" like they used to have back then. (look up at muhammad ali's record , or foreman's record...or tyson's ...it's basically 95 if not 98% american opponents )... MMA already has champs who are truely fighting opponents from around the world... (that's why mma will never follow boxing's route in the near future).

Too many variants are also a major factor.

Take GSP for example , athletic guy...but that didn't stop serra from finishing him.

Anderson Silva...owned by Takase & chonan. (submited by inferior fighters who happened to have a smarter gameplan that night )

Size isn't always an advantage , especially when you're a fucking huge muscle mass. (Bob Sapp) or super tall (semmy schilt )... the people who dominate this sport are generally patient , endurant , tenacious & very smart. (and of course ,they all have solid technics )

So it's no surprise to see the likes of Machida (but he's fucking boring)...being capable to accumulate a winning streak. (or guys like emelianenko dominating like no other)...

No surprise to see the likes of gsp or Anderson , dominating like they are..

Also , if a super huge HW is gonna dominate this sport...it won't come from sports like the NFL...but more from olympic caliber greco wrestling. (imagine a specimen like Karelin ! ) but of course Karelin was a special case...it's not like there's a karelin every year..a guy like this is a fucking rarity.

ps: Leben is shit

[québecwarrior]

wow, good post boxingcar

[BewareofDawg]

You're all right :lol: A flawed argument? :patsch Look it's no secret. Basketball, Boxing, Football all sports requiring the upper most athleticism and all sports where there was a great interest by Black Athletes in America, and sll sports that were basically taken over and dominated by the athleticism of African Americans in America. Wow there are more white wrestlers, and hockey players....lets talk about sports that the majority of African American youths are interested...since I started this argument by saying "IF MORE become interested in MMA"

[québecwarrior]

You're all right :lol: A flawed argument? :patsch Look it's no secret. Basketball, Boxing, Football all sports requiring the upper most athleticism and all sports where there was a great interest by Black Athletes in America, and sll sports that were basically taken over and dominated by the athleticism of African Americans in America. Wow there are more white wrestlers, and hockey players....lets talk about sports that the majority of African American youths are interested...since I started this argument by saying "IF MORE become interested in MMA"
boxing were dominated by afroamerican when their was hardly eastern europeean in the game..

[BewareofDawg]

that's a flawd point of view. Here's why.
MMA is one of the rare sports which gives you the opportunity to defeat an opponent with multi-stylistic combinations.

Youy know what that means ?...It means that (for example) when you're confronted with a top athlete (and a super fast one )...such as this one..
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

ANYTHING can STILL happen. The other guy isn't forced to deal with his opponent's physical advantages.

(UNLIKE boxing , or kickboxing)

As a matter of fact , you'll never see a "shift" in this sport. (like boxing had at one point) precisely because of the very nature of the sport itself. Not to mention...(unlike boxing) , NO ONE IS BANNED from participating. (like eastern europeans were , and cubans during the 60's..)

Today , you already have the russians , you already have brazilians (them alone , have years of experienced in bjj)..

Big NFL type guys (at the moment...Lesnar is a great example ) WILL NEVER have the monopoly of this sport. they'll never annihilate the competition because the guy who ends up winning , isn't necesarilly the most physically gifted. The guy who ends up having the most consistent record is usually the most experienced on the ground , and the one who has the smartest gameplan.

Also , the bigger they are , the slower they get...no matter how athletic they are. Yes , Lesnar moves pretty fucking fast for a guy of his size , he's very athletic , but fact remains...he still gasses fast , and his punches will never be as fast as a lighter guy... he'll have the strenght advantage , he can also lay and pray on smaller HWs...but as soon as he'll be confronted to a smart and super technical and endurant hw...he'll mostly likely be fucked.

In the end , it's ironic...it's a bit like the NFL...without a solid quarterback , the entire team plays differently...

Or in soccer..(both collective sports) but in soccer , all races are dominating. there's not a monopoly of a "superrior athlete"...it doesn't work that way. why ? because if you're not playing smart , and if you don't have a collective game the team is fucked.

In mma , athleticism is great but if you have shit for brains you're not gonna last long no matter of physically gifted you are.

However , MAYBE , there could be a shift for the AMERICAN participants. (more afro americans and less white americans). that's the only huge difference. But that still would be irrelevant since MMA (unlike boxing) is already working on a full international level. Many different countries are participating without any disavantages (like boxing used to have back then).

So instead of a fake "world champion" like they used to have back then. (look up at muhammad ali's record , or foreman's record...or tyson's ...it's basically 95 if not 98% american opponents )... MMA already has champs who are truely fighting opponents from around the world... (that's why mma will never follow boxing's route in the near future).

Too many variants are also a major factor.

Take GSP for example , athletic guy...but that didn't stop serra from finishing him.

Anderson Silva...owned by Takase & chonan. (submited by inferior fighters who happened to have a smarter gameplan that night )

Size isn't always an advantage , especially when you're a fucking huge muscle mass. (Bob Sapp) or super tall (semmy schilt )... the people who dominate this sport are generally patient , endurant , tenacious & very smart. (and of course ,they all have solid technics )

So it's no surprise to see the likes of Machida (but he's fucking boring)...being capable to accumulate a winning streak. (or guys like emelianenko dominating like no other)...

No surprise to see the likes of gsp or Anderson , dominating like they are..

Also , if a super huge HW is gonna dominate this sport...it won't come from sports like the NFL...but more from olympic caliber greco wrestling. (imagine a specimen like Karelin ! ) but of course Karelin was a special case...it's not like there's a karelin every year..a guy like this is a fucking rarity.

ps: Leben is shit
Good post. But it doesn't prove anything. This is simple. We all know that anything can happen in MMA, GSP lost to Serra. Perfect example. But it doesn't change the fact that GSP is the most athletic fighter in MMA and he is P4P top 3 easy! The more "pure athletes" that are attracted to this sport, the better the fighters are gonna be. How and more importantly WHY are you arguing this????

[BewareofDawg]

boxing were dominated by afroamerican when their was hardly eastern europeean in the game..
Eastern Europeans dominate the Heavier divisions. Because American Athletes are playing in the Superbowl :good

[BewareofDawg]

Boxing is no longer a mainstream sport here really. Nobody is pushing young kids in schoools to start training, they are however putting basketball, footballs and baseballs in their hands.

[québecwarrior]

so basically, what you are saying , is that athlete has an advantage in standup...okay..intelligent and strong people have an advantage in wrestling and BJJ..

[BewareofDawg]

so basically, what you are saying , is that athlete has an advantage in standup...okay..intelligent and strong people have an advantage in wrestling and BJJ..
No I'm saying that if you take two men. Give them the exact same training and knowledge and experience. The Athlete is gonna be at a huge advantage then the Non-Athlete. :deal

[québecwarrior]

No I'm saying that if you take two men. Give them the exact same training and knowledge and experience. The Athlete is gonna be at a huge advantage then the Non-Athlete. :deal
And i'll always take the very smart well trained non-athlete over the well trained athlete in mma.

[BewareofDawg]

And i'll always take the very smart well trained non-athlete over the well trained athlete in mma.
Who said anything about intelligence or smarts? I'm speaking strictly on physical ability here.

[Grievesy]

With combat sports, althletic ability is not enough. Things like chin, heart, power etc have a very important role and so I can't see these amazing black athletes just coming in a dominating or being at the top as easily as you make out.

[BewareofDawg]

And i'll always take the very smart well trained non-athlete over the well trained athlete in mma.
A huge GSP fan as yourself aruing AGAINST the importance of athleticism in fighting is odd.

[BewareofDawg]

With combat sports, althletic ability is not enough. Things like chin, heart, power etc have a very important role and so I can't see these amazing black athletes just coming in a dominating or being at the top as easily as you make out.
Nobody is saying that athleticism is "enough" but it is a better starting point then, not being athletically gifted.

[BewareofDawg]

look at brock lesnar, and what he did to Herring. The guy didn't just out muscle him, he out skilled him. His athletic abilities enabled him to learn MMA a hell of a lot faster then others and has made him a champion. He is not smart. He was too fucking stupid to play in the NFL for christs sake, he couldn't master the mental side of Football but had the physical gifts. That is the truth.

[québecwarrior]

A huge GSP fan as yourself aruing AGAINST the importance of athleticism in fighting is odd.
What? GSP's better assett, isnt his atheleticism..but His dedictation and work ethic + his intelligence to follow a game plan...

His athleticism help him to be the second best P4P.

Without his dedictation and work ethic, GSP wouldnt be the best he is, not a chance

[BewareofDawg]

What? GSP's better assett, isnt his atheleticism..but His dedictation and work ethic + his intelligence to follow a game plan...

His athleticism help him to be the second best P4P.

Without his dedictation and work ethic, GSP wouldnt be the best he is, not a chance
And without his athleticism he wouldn't be where he is either. Kenny Florian can live in the gym, but he will NEVER BE AS WELL ROUNDED AS GSP. And this is due to his physical limitations, limitations that don't exist for an athlete such as GSP.

[québecwarrior]

look at brock lesnar, and what he did to Herring. The guy didn't just out muscle him, he out skilled him. His athletic abilities enabled him to learn MMA a hell of a lot faster then others and has made him a champion. He is not smart. He was too fucking stupid to play in the NFL for christs sake, he couldn't master the mental side of Football but had the physical gifts. That is the truth.
what:lol: Lesnar didnt outskill Herring, he broke his orbital bone with one punch than he proceeded to lay n pray on him and Herring couldnt do anything because he was much less stronger than that big meathead.

[québecwarrior]

And without his athleticism he wouldn't be where he is either. Kenny Florian can live in the gym, but he will NEVER BE AS WELL ROUNDED AS GSP. And this is due to his physical limitations, limitations that don't exist for an athlete such as GSP.
Florian lacks the strenght of GSP, that's right, but he is a totally different fighter than GSP.. He has better BJJ, better MT.. His physical limitation:lol:? SInce how long you are watching mma? Florian growed like no one else in the past 4 years..

[Grievesy]

Nobody is saying that athleticism is "enough" but it is a better starting point then, not being athletically gifted.

Well of course but I still think it's not as much of a requirement as with other sports. Being a natural fighter I think would get you further than being a superior althlete.

Regardless, I don't think it matters how popular MMA gets, you Americans will always be drawn to Basketball, American Football and Baseball more than MMA. Same as in Britain we will be drawn to Football, Rugby and Cricket more. A lot less physically demanding I'd say or at least taking less punishment. Most people don't want to be punched in the face for a living.

[BewareofDawg]

what:lol: Lesnar didnt outskill Herring, he broke his orbital bone with one punch than he proceeded to lay n pray on him and Herring couldnt do anything because he was much less stronger than that big meathead.
:lol::lol:

Ok better example. Bob Sapp holds the same size and strength advantages as Lesnar, but he isn't as good as him because he's not as athletic.




FUCK it! :rofl I'm out of this thread. Peace :yep:good

[BewareofDawg]

Florian lacks the strenght of GSP, that's right, but he is a totally different fighter than GSP.. He has better BJJ, better MT.. His physical limitation:lol:? SInce how long you are watching mma? Florian growed like no one else in the past 4 years..
That's not even for certain. :deal

[québecwarrior]

He isnt as good as him because he dont have his WRESTLING:rofl

[chimba]

If Black American Athletes start choosing MMA over football and other sports then we are gonna have some seriously gifted fighters to watch. Not being racist or profiling, just realistic. If everyone from the NFL started MMA when they were young, rather then Football we would've never heard of Chris Leben.

Lol I was just talking about this in the car with my brother in law. God! see Lesnar as an example. A real athlete top of the food chain. It would be pretty scary.

But back to the topic, the fighters we have are what we have now. At the moment the styles of Silva and Machida will dominate the next few years until that 6'4 250 lbs NFL bound went into MMA in HS instead of Football.

Machida and Silva has the trick, Dont get hit and hit accurately as often and prevent the takedown(moreso Machida) This will not only be a winning formula but a good formula for the sports popularity. They have refined and very tight techniques, something that boxing has now that MMA doesnt have. They legitimize the sport because they take out the unpredictability as a result of sloppiness.

This is good as well in terms of evolving the sport, these two are taking it into the next level where others can strive to be.

[BewareofDawg]

Florian lacks the strenght of GSP, that's right, but he is a totally different fighter than GSP.. He has better BJJ, better MT.. His physical limitation:lol:? SInce how long you are watching mma? Florian growed like no one else in the past 4 years..
I've seen Florian grow and improve. Why are you arguing this. Florian is not capable of everything GSP is! Who the hell cares if he improved :lol: he has physical disadvantages in comparison to GSP. Do you honestly think Florian could do a standing back flip :rofl:rofl No way! If you are saying Florian is as athletic and capable of the same things as GSP then so be it, enjoy la la land :yep

[BewareofDawg]

Lol I was just talking about this in the car with my brother in law. God! see Lesnar as an example. A real athlete top of the food chain. It would be pretty scary.

But back to the topic, the fighters we have are what we have now. At the moment the styles of Silva and Machida will dominate the next few years until that 6'4 250 lbs NFL bound went into MMA in HS instead of Football.

Machida and Silva has the trick, Dont get hit and hit accurately as often and prevent the takedown(moreso Machida) This will not only be a winning formula but a good formula for the sports popularity. They have refined and very tight techniques, something that boxing has now that MMA doesnt have. They legitimize the sport because they take out the unpredictability it has because it is still very sloppy.

This is good as well in terms of evolving the sport, these two are taking it into the next level where others can strive to be.

Finally! Thank you for not being stubborn and having some sort of grasp on reality Chimba :good

[BewareofDawg]

He isnt as good as him because he dont have his WRESTLING:rofl
And prior to GSP fighting Jay Heiron years ago, GSP stated that Jay was the better wrestler. Since, due to GSPs dedication and physical and athletic gifts he has not only surpassed Jay heiron in wrestling but is now veiwed as the best wrestler in the sport. :deal He DIDN'T have "his wrestling" a few years ago either. It's what happens when you train "world class athletes" to be "athletes", as opposed to "not so gifted athletes" to be "athletes" :deal

[québecwarrior]

I've seen Florian grow and improve. Why are you arguing this. Florian is not capable of everything GSP is! Who the hell cares if he improved :lol: he has physical disadvantages in comparison to GSP. Do you honestly think Florian could do a standing back flip :rofl:rofl No way! If you are saying Florian is as athletic and capable of the same things as GSP then so be it, enjoy la la land :yep
who the hell care if he improved? Than you say he has physical limitation..YOu say a thing, than you say another.

[BewareofDawg]

who the hell care if he improved? Than you say he has physical limitation..YOu say a thing, than you say another.
He does have physical limitations. I confused with the point you're trying to make. Look at it this way. You can take Tim Sylvia and Lebron James and put a basketball in their hand for thet first time. Tim Sylvia will always "improve" his game and ability. BUT due to physical gifts and athleticism that Lebron James has, which he doesn't, he will NEVER EVER EVER NEVER be as good at basketball as Lebron James. Much like given the same work ethic, experience, training Kenny Florian will never be as good of a Mixed Martial artist as GSP, he jsut isn't capable of doing everything as good as GSP is. :deal

[québecwarrior]

Okay, but an athlete doesnt help you at all in BJJ, if you have once tried that art you must know..

[chimba]

Finally! Thank you for not being stubborn and having some sort of grasp on reality Chimba :good

This is common sense man!

Im not even talking about 300 over pound lineman who fuckin moves like a CAT!!. This is on TV!!, just watch NFL on sundays.

Imagine this same guy at 15 playing football and training MMA (instead of baseball).

Many of these athletes like a Lawrence Taylor when he played linebacker for North Carolina, played basketball and baseball too. He couldnt decide what too choose, thats how great an athlete he was. He said that he chose Football because he was addicted to hard contact. :lol:

Now imagine if he choose MMA too as his hobby, God damn!! this guy has more "athlete" in his forearm than most MMA now have in their body. Problem is he didnt train for it

[chimba]

Okay, but an athlete doesnt help you at all in BJJ, if you have once tried that art you must know..

This doesnt make sense. An elite athlete can learn BJJ just like everyone else. It actually helps you when you couple BJJ with some explosiveness.

Rickson Gracie had mentioned this, strenght is an advantage in BJJ when youre equal in technique

[québecwarrior]

This doesnt make sense. An elite athlete can learn BJJ just like everyone else. It actually helps you when you couple BJJ with some explosiveness.

Rickson Gracie had mentioned this, strenght is an advantage in BJJ when youre equal in technique
Matt Hamill is one of the strongest guy P4P, I dont recall anybody calling him an athlete?

Intelligence will always prevails over explosiveness in BJJ.

[québecwarrior]

and Chimba its funny, but Machida, isnt considered an athlete at all by mma fans, but his style will always prevails over flashy athletic guy on their feet..

[chimba]

Matt Hamill is one of the strongest guy P4P, I dont recall anybody calling him an athlete?

Intelligence will always prevails over explosiveness in BJJ.

Matt Hamill is an athlete, whetehr elite or not is debatable. Hamill has tons of holes in his game, thats why he loses

BTW GSP for proof mentioned that he would have been at least a pro at playing Hockey whether he was NHL good is debatable but he sure could have made the OHL, WHL, Quebec Hockey league. he was a good athlete already.

[québecwarrior]

But what i'm saying basically, is that, yeah black have advantage in agility and speed, caucasian have advantage in strenght and hand eye coordination..

If you put 100 randoms black people and 100 random white or latino people in a mma gym, you have as many chance to be the best if you are white or latino as you have chance if you are black....

[BewareofDawg]

NEWS FLASH!

Better athletes perform better in sports.

[chimba]

But what i'm saying basically, is that, yeah black have advantage in agility and speed, caucasian have advantage in strenght and hand eye coordination..

If you put 100 randoms black people and 100 random white or latino people in a mma gym, you have as many chance to be the best if you are white or latino as you have chance if you are black....

Im not sure about that, some talents or skills are better suited for different activities.

Ill give you an example I dont think Ping Pong players who have incredible hand eye coordination will do well in MMA.

[BewareofDawg]

But what i'm saying basically, is that, yeah black have advantage in agility and speed, caucasian have advantage in strenght and hand eye coordination..

If you put 100 randoms black people and 100 random white or latino people in a mma gym, you have as many chance to be the best if you are white or latino as you have chance if you are black....
:rofl:rofl:rofl Now white people better have better hand eye coordination and strength???? Ok dude, whatever.

[BewareofDawg]

Hand Eye Coordination. Now in all these sports, in history, there have been far more whites participate then Blacks.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever
Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever
Jerry Rice is the best reciever
Cassius Clay is the best boxer ever
Barry Bonds is the home run king

Now, what were you saying about hand eye coordination??

Jesus man, and I'm Irish Catholic and even think this is bullshit.

[chimba]

Hand Eye Coordination. Now in all these sports, in history, there have been far more whites participate then Blacks.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever
Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever
Jerry Rice is the best reciever
Cassius Clay is the best boxer ever
Barry Bonds is the home run king

Now, what were you saying about hand eye coordination??

Jesus man, and I'm Irish Catholic and even think this is bullshit.

Im Filipino Catholic and I cant disagree. You know what Im sure off, if some black athletes starts playing Hockey, I wouldnt be surprised if they do great at that too. Its physiology 101. Its that simple, they are more muscular (high twitch muscle fibers)in nature. Nothing wrong with that every race has advantages.

[québecwarrior]

Hand Eye Coordination. Now in all these sports, in history, there have been far more whites participate then Blacks.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever
Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever
Jerry Rice is the best reciever
Cassius Clay is the best boxer ever
Barry Bonds is the home run king

Now, what were you saying about hand eye coordination??

Jesus man, and I'm Irish Catholic and even think this is bullshit.
I was talking about quarterback and pitcher in baseball

[québecwarrior]

Hand Eye Coordination. Now in all these sports, in history, there have been far more whites participate then Blacks.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever
Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever
Jerry Rice is the best reciever
Cassius Clay is the best boxer ever,
Barry Bonds is the home run king

Now, what were you saying about hand eye coordination??

Jesus man, and I'm Irish Catholic and even think this is bullshit.
Michael Jordan isnt the best pure shooter ever.
Tiger Woods is as much asian that he is black
Jerry Rice, yes is the greatest receiver.
Cassius Clay isnt the best boxer ever, go learn boxing ,aint saying that the best boxer is white, but srr is.
Barry Bonds is a cheat fuck home run king. You might wanna know that hitting home run, dont mean he is the best pure hitter..Ishiro is

[BewareofDawg]

QuebecWarrior let's end this debate. I think we took it far enough. We're all here for fun, or to get through the work day or whatever, not to get angry.

[LB3000]

What does the future hold for the next 10 to 15 years....will the sport slide backwards or move forward. Or could it stay the same.

Will UFC be the sole power still? Its hard to predict what is going to happen in the future but it does look like MMA (well the UFC anyway) is doing well. They badly need competition for the sake of the fighters and also the fans. Affliction are around but im not sure if they are the one as it looks like they will only do a few shows this year. If its Affliction or another org lets hopes someone does manage to compete with the UFC in the near future.

The MMA scene in Japan is struggling at the moment and hopefully it improves soon. I always bang on about it but Dream and Sengoku really need to join forces. Maybe that could be the spark that gets Japanaese fans interested again?

I am not going to comment about the fighters. :nut

[boxingcar]

look at brock lesnar, and what he did to Herring. The guy didn't just out muscle him, he out skilled him. His athletic abilities enabled him to learn MMA a hell of a lot faster then others and has made him a champion. He is not smart. He was too fucking stupid to play in the NFL for christs sake, he couldn't master the mental side of Football but had the physical gifts. That is the truth.

I don't see why you're bringing this up to prove your point. Fedor Emelianenko , who's smaller than Lesnar and Herring...Was mauling Heath. And basically forced the guy and his team to simply abandon the fight.

Lesnar was lay and praying for the most part , didn't finish him...honestly the highlight of the fight was that super punch that he landed at the beginning but apart from that ?

Also , i wasn't personally impressed with his victory over Couture for several reasons.

First of all , experienced or not...Couture is still 44 or 45 fucking years old.

Second of all , Lesnar , who's not only physically much bigger , but who's also younger...Was at one point getting controlled & even outwrestled by the older , smaller Couture.

Thirdly , the final insult... Lesnar was gassed before landing that punch. Clearly drained.

No matter what happens in his rematch against Mir , whether he loses again or whether he KOs mir out cold in the first has no importance..Anything this guy can do has been done better by his predecesors...He's bringing nothing new to the table. (or maybe his wwe like shit talk )...

His physic is impressive but so what ? We've already seeen a 350 lbs Sapp...There's a point where size gets ridiculous anyway. (Hong man Choi)..

if we're only talking about athleticism and not size...then it's also irrelevant. (for the reasons i talked about in my pervious post).

If Kevin Randleman (who's a not just a superb athlete , but also a guy who's got insane physical strength ) , anyway if Kev had Werdum's ground game...He'd probably still be ranked at the top 5 today but he isn't.

If Belfort (another gifted athlete ) had Rogerio's bjj & endurance...we wouldn't be talking about an "old belfort" because he'd still be a wrecking machine even today...

(of course , those two are bad examples since Belfort had to deal with the loss of his sister & Kevin had several personal misfortune too , and a bunch of problems with his body )...

Still , two awesome athletes , but also two perfect example of WHY the issue you brought up is irrelevant in this sport. In boxing , when you have a prime Lennox you're in deep fucking shit...(unless you pull some kinda Rahman upset or if your name is Vitali)...But otherwise , due to the guy's size and athleticism...chances are..You're gonna get fucked like everyone else..

The very same guy , with the same size , body type and athleticism...wouldn't necessarily be as problematic in mma , even against a guy like...let's say , Kharitonov. IF the smartest of the two...IF the most endurant and knowledgeable (in bjj , sambo & wrestling ) happens to be Kharitonov... His chances of winning are more than legit.

(see my previous post ...in the video i showed you with Manhoef vs Akiyama).

The correct timing , the decisive move , the smart decisions...not to mention , the chin !...there's so many things that go into the equation that no particular race or type of athlete is ever gonna have the priviledge to dominate this sport.

I can understand how some would think that way (thanks to boxing and the afro american's favorite dish , the "white american can" ) but it doesn't work that way under different rules..

And that's precisely what guys like Roach can't understand either...

The types of athletes you're talking about already exist by the way. But a majority of them aren't at the top. There's a few of them who are doing pretty good for themselves.

First name that comes to mind is Antonio Junior silva ( an athletic super heavy who's got legit submission skills and who's very powerful )...but that didn't stop the lard ass Eric Pele from finishing him in less than 3 minutes..

(which would be unthinkable under any different circumstances). (it's a bit like Butterbean beating a guy like Brewster or Chagaev..though it may be an exaggeration , the comparison isn't too far fetched )...

But this shit happens in mma. Because both fighters constantly have to think about the other guy trying to take him down or landing a low kick or a knee , or slaming him etc...etc..

And maybe in a way , that's the fun thing of the sport (the beauty of the sport). There's max suspense because we now know how common it is to see these things happen.

That's why many are still nervous when fedor is about to fight (even though we all know that he's supposed to win..) but in reality...who the fuck really knows for sure ? nobody. it can't be a total certainty.

When a prime Wlad Klitschko fights Chris Byrd , or when a prime Lennox is confronted to a guy like Morrison , you more or less know what to expect.

But that ain't the same in mma. Who knew that Hunt (especially him) would end up giving Emelianenko (guy with the best balance on the ground) a 7 min battle on the ground ? I certainly wasn't expecting it.. Or that Quinton Jackson would end up struggling and barely winning a split dec against Lindland ? (sure we can argue and say that Lindland is afterall a silver medal in greco ) but still...Jackson wasn't able to KO him in time..and yet , Jackson's overall mma technic is pretty far from being one dimensional..

Was anyone expecting Gonzaga to ko crocop by HIGHKICK no less ! (a fucking bjj fighter...KOing a top kickboxer by hk how ironic ! )

That's the type of shit you see happening in this sport. Is it a good or bad thing ? is it a plague for the sport ? yes and no. If you're afanboy..then it can be quite annoying seeing your "champ" losing his belt every now & thn. if you're just a fan of the sport...then you eventually get used to it.

What to expect from the future of this sport ? a bit of everything..it's gonna be very international for one. That's something all fighters (americans in particular) will have to deal with , even more so than today. And MANY upsets..it's gonna be virtually impossible to have this wrecking athletic beast pulling a tysonesque like terror on any divisions...(because it isn't boxing)...(even if you're feeding the guy monumental cans)..it's not gonna work.

[Polymath]

:rofl:rofl:rofl Now white people better have better hand eye coordination and strength???? Ok dude, whatever.

Is this guy still babbling on 5 pages later? :huh

Look, as you've said yourself, youve only seen a couple of UFC events and don't know much about the sorts of skills and talents it takes to be a good fighter. Being good at football just means your good at football. Some people are good at many sports, but its not that simple, the type of talent it takes to be a fighter is different to being a football player. Larry Holmes could never have been an NFL player, and no NFL players could have been better boxers than Larry Holmes. You've grown up thinking that NFL and NBA are the best athlets in the world (and they are - at what they do), but the rest of the world doesnt think like that.

[Polymath]

Good posts Boxingcar :good

[chimba]

I think weve made this more trivial than we needed too.

The point missed here is that had MMA been an established sport, for arguments sake lets say 100 years it would have attracted the best of the best. This is all about money, more so than anything else. Theres a reason Machida is yelling in english almost desperately promoting himself. He wants be be famous, the star.

Now lets redefine what best athletes mean. People are born athletes. Guys like bewareofdog had mentioned. People inherently blessed with an abundance of natural ability that athletic endeavors come easier to them than others. Theres a ton of them, although MMA has shown an abundance of techniques and skill (which are learned), theres a very few who fit into this elite athlete category.

Boxingcar made an example of Couture, Lesnar and Randleman, throw in Lindland. These guys competition wise are way past their primes. RAndy when he stepped in the Octagon was almost 30 and yet many would argaubly consider him the best fighter in the UFC historically.

Now this is the important part, Randy, Brock these guys didnt make the Olympics, they were great but still not elite level.

The 1 million dollar question is what happened to the hundreds or even thousands of wrestlers around the world better than Randy and Brock?? Where are these guys?
Based on what the few have accomplished, we can definitely assume that the prospect of success would have been high for a Dan Gable if he had joined the UFC at 22 years of age.

I'll tell you what, you pay fighters like Affliction paid AA for a fight and you will see a movement towards mma of kids very athletically gifted to MMA. And yes future NFL, Hockey, Rugby, Boxers, Wrestlers are a part of that pool of talent. Have them train with the best coaches of every discipline, Im pretty sure that they would have a considerably higher rate of success in MMA than average athletic guys who relies only on honed skills and techniques.

And Boxingcar mentioned Gonzaga koing Crocop and MMas unpredictability. This is because the sport has not evolved to a point that theres alot of dominant talents unlike in Boxing. You have a handful of guys who can will their skills over another with little risk of losing.

And lastly you have to give Lesnar credit for beating some of the guys hes beaten, are you kidding??, you wont give him credit for beating Mir?? This guy wasnt even thinking of MMA 3 years ago (making us laugh in WWE) and now hes a 30 year old UFC Heavyweight champ. And you critize his victories like Randy's victories were any more exciting. Lesnars vicotry of Herring was more impressive than Fedors victory over Heath. Fedor is the greatest fighter in MMAs history, Brock is a newbie. Hell yeah Brocks was more impressive

[chimba]

Another note MArk Schultz fought a grappling match against Rickson Gracie, Gracie beats him but said he was the toughest opponent ever. Now imagine Olympic Gold Medalist Mark Schultz taing 5 years of BJJ. Its important to note that even though he won a Gold medal, Marks brother Dave was considered clearly the better of the two. He said he got into fighting once in the UFC because he needed money although he was past it he dominated his opponent.

[OuterDrake]

I hope to see more Mexican warriors like Miguel Torres.Much like mexican boxers.

(I'm not mexican btw)

I'd like to see if mexican fighter incorporate that Mexican boxing style into mma in the future.

[BewareofDawg]

Is this guy still babbling on 5 pages later? :huh

Look, as you've said yourself, youve only seen a couple of UFC events and don't know much about the sorts of skills and talents it takes to be a good fighter. Being good at football just means your good at football. Some people are good at many sports, but its not that simple, the type of talent it takes to be a fighter is different to being a football player. Larry Holmes could never have been an NFL player, and no NFL players could have been better boxers than Larry Holmes. You've grown up thinking that NFL and NBA are the best athlets in the world (and they are - at what they do), but the rest of the world doesnt think like that.
Are you claiming that I've said that I only saw a few UFC events? Also did you miss above when I said we could end the debate because it has obviously gone too far. I train in MMA and have trained kickboxing for 10 years :deal I watch MMA and read about it constantly.

All I stated is as the sport grows, more athletes will be attracted to it and the talent pool will increase tremendously. Better athletes do better in sports...end of fucking story! :patsch Now just shut up.

[BewareofDawg]

I don't see why you're bringing this up to prove your point. Fedor Emelianenko , who's smaller than Lesnar and Herring...Was mauling Heath. And basically forced the guy and his team to simply abandon the fight.

Lesnar was lay and praying for the most part , didn't finish him...honestly the highlight of the fight was that super punch that he landed at the beginning but apart from that ?

Also , i wasn't personally impressed with his victory over Couture for several reasons.

First of all , experienced or not...Couture is still 44 or 45 fucking years old.

Second of all , Lesnar , who's not only physically much bigger , but who's also younger...Was at one point getting controlled & even outwrestled by the older , smaller Couture.

Thirdly , the final insult... Lesnar was gassed before landing that punch. Clearly drained.

No matter what happens in his rematch against Mir , whether he loses again or whether he KOs mir out cold in the first has no importance..Anything this guy can do has been done better by his predecesors...He's bringing nothing new to the table. (or maybe his wwe like shit talk )...

His physic is impressive but so what ? We've already seeen a 350 lbs Sapp...There's a point where size gets ridiculous anyway. (Hong man Choi)..

if we're only talking about athleticism and not size...then it's also irrelevant. (for the reasons i talked about in my pervious post).

If Kevin Randleman (who's a not just a superb athlete , but also a guy who's got insane physical strength ) , anyway if Kev had Werdum's ground game...He'd probably still be ranked at the top 5 today but he isn't.

If Belfort (another gifted athlete ) had Rogerio's bjj & endurance...we wouldn't be talking about an "old belfort" because he'd still be a wrecking machine even today...

(of course , those two are bad examples since Belfort had to deal with the loss of his sister & Kevin had several personal misfortune too , and a bunch of problems with his body )...

Still , two awesome athletes , but also two perfect example of WHY the issue you brought up is irrelevant in this sport. In boxing , when you have a prime Lennox you're in deep fucking shit...(unless you pull some kinda Rahman upset or if your name is Vitali)...But otherwise , due to the guy's size and athleticism...chances are..You're gonna get fucked like everyone else..

The very same guy , with the same size , body type and athleticism...wouldn't necessarily be as problematic in mma , even against a guy like...let's say , Kharitonov. IF the smartest of the two...IF the most endurant and knowledgeable (in bjj , sambo & wrestling ) happens to be Kharitonov... His chances of winning are more than legit.

(see my previous post ...in the video i showed you with Manhoef vs Akiyama).

The correct timing , the decisive move , the smart decisions...not to mention , the chin !...there's so many things that go into the equation that no particular race or type of athlete is ever gonna have the priviledge to dominate this sport.

I can understand how some would think that way (thanks to boxing and the afro american's favorite dish , the "white american can" ) but it doesn't work that way under different rules..

And that's precisely what guys like Roach can't understand either...

The types of athletes you're talking about already exist by the way. But a majority of them aren't at the top. There's a few of them who are doing pretty good for themselves.

First name that comes to mind is Antonio Junior silva ( an athletic super heavy who's got legit submission skills and who's very powerful )...but that didn't stop the lard ass Eric Pele from finishing him in less than 3 minutes..

(which would be unthinkable under any different circumstances). (it's a bit like Butterbean beating a guy like Brewster or Chagaev..though it may be an exaggeration , the comparison isn't too far fetched )...

But this shit happens in mma. Because both fighters constantly have to think about the other guy trying to take him down or landing a low kick or a knee , or slaming him etc...etc..

And maybe in a way , that's the fun thing of the sport (the beauty of the sport). There's max suspense because we now know how common it is to see these things happen.

That's why many are still nervous when fedor is about to fight (even though we all know that he's supposed to win..) but in reality...who the fuck really knows for sure ? nobody. it can't be a total certainty.

When a prime Wlad Klitschko fights Chris Byrd , or when a prime Lennox is confronted to a guy like Morrison , you more or less know what to expect.

But that ain't the same in mma. Who knew that Hunt (especially him) would end up giving Emelianenko (guy with the best balance on the ground) a 7 min battle on the ground ? I certainly wasn't expecting it.. Or that Quinton Jackson would end up struggling and barely winning a split dec against Lindland ? (sure we can argue and say that Lindland is afterall a silver medal in greco ) but still...Jackson wasn't able to KO him in time..and yet , Jackson's overall mma technic is pretty far from being one dimensional..

Was anyone expecting Gonzaga to ko crocop by HIGHKICK no less ! (a fucking bjj fighter...KOing a top kickboxer by hk how ironic ! )

That's the type of shit you see happening in this sport. Is it a good or bad thing ? is it a plague for the sport ? yes and no. If you're afanboy..then it can be quite annoying seeing your "champ" losing his belt every now & thn. if you're just a fan of the sport...then you eventually get used to it.

What to expect from the future of this sport ? a bit of everything..it's gonna be very international for one. That's something all fighters (americans in particular) will have to deal with , even more so than today. And MANY upsets..it's gonna be virtually impossible to have this wrecking athletic beast pulling a tysonesque like terror on any divisions...(because it isn't boxing)...(even if you're feeding the guy monumental cans)..it's not gonna work.
Stop posting fucking novels! You are making this WAY TOO DIFFICULT AND INVOLVED.

[BewareofDawg]

Person (A) - Georges St. Pierre
Person (B) - Nick Diaz

pretend these two never did a damn thing in their lives, all we know is how athletically gifted the two are. You take them and teach them BJJ, Stand up, Wrestling. And after 5 years you throw them into competition. Assume they both have the same chin, same work ethic and same desire and heart to win.

Can one of you fucking overreacting clowns honestly tell me that the more athletic person, Person (A), Georges St. Pierre isn't gonna be the better fighter?????

so there, if you have more interest in the sport, you will have more competition, better athletes will be drawn to it and starting those better athletes from scratch is gonna be very bad news for the guys starting who aren't such good athletes. And I'm sorry for all you stubborn people on here, but it is no secret that alot African Americans in America posses athletic gifts that are very rare in other races.

Why is anyone arguing this, I see no point here.

Now I'm done.

[ufoalf]

And I'm sorry for all you stubborn people on here, but it is no secret that alot African Americans in America posses athletic gifts that are very rare in other races.

You need a lot more brains than you do athleticism in this sport. Unfortunately where African Americans win on pure athleticism they lose in the acuity. Don't believe me? Check out NFL quarterbacks. Check out all the most dominant champion in MMA? Percentages are overwhelming.
There's no right formula.

[Polymath]

Person (A) - Georges St. Pierre
Person (B) - Nick Diaz

pretend these two never did a damn thing in their lives, all we know is how athletically gifted the two are. You take them and teach them BJJ, Stand up, Wrestling. And after 5 years you throw them into competition. Assume they both have the same chin, same work ethic and same desire and heart to win.

Can one of you fucking overreacting clowns honestly tell me that the more athletic person, Person (A), Georges St. Pierre isn't gonna be the better fighter?????

so there, if you have more interest in the sport, you will have more competition, better athletes will be drawn to it and starting those better athletes from scratch is gonna be very bad news for the guys starting who aren't such good athletes. And I'm sorry for all you stubborn people on here, but it is no secret that alot African Americans in America posses athletic gifts that are very rare in other races.

Why is anyone arguing this, I see no point here.

Now I'm done.

lol

You still can't understand. There's no such thing as 'athleticism' like you are thinking of it; being great at one thing is no guarantee of even competence in another; being a wide receiver is nothing like being a wrestler, dont require similar talents at all. Try and and read over what Boxingcar has posted for you, you will learn something if ya try :good

[BewareofDawg]

You need a lot more brains than you do athleticism in this sport. Unfortunately where African Americans win on pure athleticism they lose in the acuity. Don't believe me? Check out NFL quarterbacks. Check out all the most dominant champion in MMA? Percentages are overwhelming.
There's no right formula.
:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl Wow!!!!

Ok enough said there I guess.

I never said all you need is athleticism. You're twisting shit around and creating an argument out of nothing. All I said the more athletic people enter the sport of MMA the better the competition and fighters there will be.

Do you know that Brock Lesnar had all the athleticism and and physical tools to be in the NFL but he got cut because he couldn't learn the game and the plays and understand. yet he joins MMA and is all of a sudden the UFC heavyweight champion in his 4th fight :lol: Which sport requires more brains. It seems you are saying that Black People aren't capable of the mental capacity it takes to be MMA fighters. Ever heard of Ray Lewis? One of the best defensive players of all time. The leader of one of the greatest defenses of all time. Now you are telling me that if he got into wrestling, grappling and kickboxing when as a kid, rather then Football he wouldn't have a huge chance to murder everyone in the UFC heavyweight division today? :rofl come on dude, you're being silly! These guys that play in the NFL are lightyears ahead of the guys who fight in the UFC in terms of athleticism. They are also tough as nails, and need the mental capacity to follow and keep up with NFL plays, in a fast as hell moving sport.

Once again I'll say, you are all talking out of your ass. :good

[chimba]

lol

You still can't understand. There's no such thing as 'athleticism' like you are thinking of it; being great at one thing is no guarantee of even competence in another; being a wide receiver is nothing like being a wrestler, dont require similar talents at all. Try and and read over what Boxingcar has posted for you, you will learn something if ya try :good


I think theres nothing to read, we are talking about apples and oranges.

This is too simple, it boggles my mind!

Athletes are born!!, not made. If you are born an athlete due to great genetics, at 1 year old, you dont know what field youll get into.

Now lets say at 5 years of age you choose Wide reciever like you said, you have an advantage over other 5 year old wide recievers if you are more athletic(jumps higher, Runs faster, Stronger) than them. Same intangibles, same smarts.

Now if that same 5 year old takes MMA, he has a big advantage right off the gate against other not so athletic 5 year olds, his rate of success is enhanced.

If there were 100 of these athletic kids and another 100 normal kids and they all take MMA with everything else the same..There will be much more successful from the athletic kids group than the less athletic ones.

Heres the crucial part, these 15 year olds now that are super naturally talented kids did not pick MMA, they chose other things because MMA wasnt as popular, was not known, not enough money, for whatever reason. These super athletes are not in MMA now, thats the point.

[ufoalf]

These guys that play in the NFL are lightyears ahead of the guys who fight in the UFC in terms of athleticism.

:lol:

:good

And im the one talking out of my ass? Top tier MMA fighters train about... i dunno 10 times as much as guys in the NFL? You have no fucking clue what you're talkin about. Find a definition of athleticism then find the training programs for the likes of GSP, then find training program for top NFL anything. Then come back and talk to me.

[chimba]

:lol:

:good

And im the one talking out of my ass? Top tier MMA fighters train about... i dunno 10 times as much as guys in the NFL? You have no fucking clue what you're talkin about. Find a definition of athleticism then find the training programs for the likes of GSP, then find training program for top NFL anything. Then come back and talk to me.

Uoalf now this is disturbing, you are telling me that MMA are even close to an athletic level of an NFL player. WHoopde damn doo. If I was GSP, Ill fucking ditch the 400k a fight gig and work for 6 months making 5 millions as a wide reciever, can you imagine the endorsements. Heck maybe Tim Silvia can cut it as a defensive end, thats a cool 3 million for 6 months work

[ufoalf]

Athletes are born!!, not made.

Leave. Never come back sir, you just dug a whole from which you can't climb out of.

Athletes are made. Unless you're a midget or have some kind of disease you can be a fantastic athlete with enough work put into the right sport where you belong.

What in the fuck's name you talking about?
100 athletic kids vs 100 non-athletic kids? What's the difference? Please tell me. How did those 100 kids become athletic? They were BORN like that? :lol:

I've personally seen lard ass kids turn out to be state champions years later. I've kinda liked you before this, so im not go too much into insults but this has got to be one of the most asinine things I've read on this forum.

Athleticism is directly proportional to the hours you put in in certain physical attribute such as agility or strength. Some people have been genetically pre-disposed to be bigger stronger, other smaller more flexible etc. If you're in a right sport for your body type and mindset and you put in enough work, you can become best. Without a question.

[ufoalf]

Uoalf now this is disturbing, you are telling me that MMA are even close to an athletic level of an NFL player. WHoopde damn doo. If I was GSP, Ill fucking ditch the 400k a fight gig and work for 6 months making 5 millions as a wide reciever, can you imagine the endorsements. Heck maybe Tim Silvia can cut it as a defensive end, thats a cool 3 million for 6 months work

Ooooh, isee. So the more you get paid the better athlete you are. I can see how you made that connection... :blood

:rofl:rofl:rofl
Bwahahahahha

[ufoalf]

I know the problem of this discussion. You don't know what an "ATHLETE" means.

[Polymath]

Uoalf now this is disturbing, you are telling me that MMA are even close to an athletic level of an NFL player. WHoopde damn doo. If I was GSP, Ill fucking ditch the 400k a fight gig and work for 6 months making 5 millions as a wide reciever, can you imagine the endorsements. Heck maybe Tim Silvia can cut it as a defensive end, thats a cool 3 million for 6 months work

No offense, but are you autistic?

[chimba]

Leave. Never come back sir, you just dug a whole from which you can't climb out of.

Athletes are made. Unless you're a midget or have some kind of disease you can be a fantastic athlete with enough work put into the right sport where you belong.

What in the fuck's name you talking about?
100 athletic kids vs 100 non-athletic kids? What's the difference? Please tell me. How did those 100 kids become athletic? They were BORN like that? :lol:

I've personally seen lard ass kids turn out to be state champions years later. I've kinda liked you before this, so im not go too much into insults but this has got to be one of the most asinine things I've read on this forum.

Athleticism is directly proportional to the hours you put in in certain physical attribute such as agility or strength. Some people have been genetically pre-disposed to be bigger stronger, other smaller more flexible etc. If you're in a right sport for your body type and mindset and you put in enough work, you can become best. Without a question.

Im leaving and make a poll because Im just curious which is more athletic NFL Players of MMA guys.

Athletes are born is a sense that they are genetically gifted. No one said that if they are lazy and dont work at it theyd be great. Ive been saying all along that if everythings equal.

Ok Im out.

[Polymath]

Im leaving and make a poll because Im just curious which is more athletic NFL Players of MMA guys.

Athletes are born is a sense that they are genetically gifted. No one said that if they are lazy and dont work at it theyd be great. Ive been saying all along that if everythings equal.

Ok Im out.

Lets go through this slowly.

One step at a time.

Have you ever seen an NFL game?

[Polymath]

The second part of the question is: how much did that NFL game look like a Jiu Jitsu match?

Was it:

A/ Identical. Football and Jiu Jitsu are different names for the same thing.

b/ Somewhat similar, though college ball and Jiu jitsu are even more similar

C/ Nothing alike at all

[chimba]

Lets go through this slowly.

One step at a time.

Have you ever seen an NFL game?


I just made a poll in the lounge, Maybe you guys are right, Ill admit if im wrong

[Polymath]

I just made a poll in the lounge, Maybe you guys are right, Ill admit if im wrong

No, thats now completely out of context and void.


Part 2.

I think Kobe Bryant and Matt Lindland are both great athletes. Do you agree?

I think although both very gifted athletes, the types of athleticism they possess are different and suited to their individual sports. What is your opinion?

1/ Yes, I agree theyre talented and have different skills and innate gifts that are not at all alike

2/ No, they have the same type of talent just harnessed in a different way; they could both have been great at each others sport

3/ Matt Lindland and Kobe Bryant are actually the same person.

Which of the above most closely resembles your opinion?

[ufoalf]

Nah chimba dont worry. Once MMA hating boxing fans ride up in there it'll be pretty overwhelming towards NFL.
It's almost like asking the same question on sherdog and hoping for NFL to win the poll :lol:

[Utter1]

As a matter of fact , you'll never see a "shift" in this sport. (like boxing had at one point) precisely because of the very nature of the sport itself. Not to mention...(unlike boxing) , NO ONE IS BANNED from participating. (like eastern europeans were , and cubans during the 60's..)


What shift was that in boxing?

Today , you already have the russians , you already have brazilians (them alone , have years of experienced in bjj)..



So instead of a fake "world champion" like they used to have back then. (look up at muhammad ali's record , or foreman's record...or tyson's ...it's basically 95 if not 98% american opponents )... MMA already has champs who are truely fighting opponents from around the world... (that's why mma will never follow boxing's route in the near future).


Fake world champion? I see what your saying but they wernt fake, just the fact that boxing had its best facilties in america at that time.

I agree thought that eve boxing today is better in terms of qualiy than before.

[Utter1]

Well of course but I still think it's not as much of a requirement as with other sports. Being a natural fighter I think would get you further than being a superior althlete.

Regardless, I don't think it matters how popular MMA gets, you Americans will always be drawn to Basketball, American Football and Baseball more than MMA. Same as in Britain we will be drawn to Football, Rugby and Cricket more. A lot less physically demanding I'd say or at least taking less punishment. Most people don't want to be punched in the face for a living.


Brilliant post and to the point-

One american poster is trying to claim that the reason no big american heavyweight is dominating boxing is becuase they are paying NFL, basketball etc.......BOLLOCKS.

[Utter1]

Hand Eye Coordination. Now in all these sports, in history, there have been far more whites participate then Blacks.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever
Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever
Jerry Rice is the best reciever
Cassius Clay is the best boxer ever
Barry Bonds is the home run king

Now, what were you saying about hand eye coordination??

Jesus man, and I'm Irish Catholic and even think this is bullshit.



Your agrument stems from generalizations about race rather than......looking at other factors on a wider scope. It like looking at the world through one eye rather than two......your always gonna be lopsided in terms of opion.

I studied sport science at University......this topic came up many a time. It has been found through countless studies that the differences are less than 0.001 between race.

If you put a black family in Iceland....(just north of the UK)........and came back to that island a thousand years later......with the family offspring ever moving......they would be white due to where they are on the planet and how many sunligh comes through etc.

Basketball.......in terms of being a highly professional game is played by americans which numbers around 280 million of the world population. If you think about it, the world population right now is 6.2 billion.

The best example is to look at the sport of Football (soccer) which is the most popular sport in the world.......and even a top 8 sport in america now.

The 3 best players are what you would call white/latino - Messi, C. Ronaldso, Kaka.

The 3 best playrs ever are a mixture of black, white/latino and berber/arab. Pele, Maradona and Zidane.

Look at David Haye.........do you consider him black or white?

His dad was mix race black and his mum is white.

[Utter1]

I don't see why you're bringing this up to prove your point. Fedor Emelianenko , who's smaller than Lesnar and Herring...Was mauling Heath. And basically forced the guy and his team to simply abandon the fight.

Lesnar was lay and praying for the most part , didn't finish him...honestly the highlight of the fight was that super punch that he landed at the beginning but apart from that ?

Also , i wasn't personally impressed with his victory over Couture for several reasons.

First of all , experienced or not...Couture is still 44 or 45 fucking years old.

Second of all , Lesnar , who's not only physically much bigger , but who's also younger...Was at one point getting controlled & even outwrestled by the older , smaller Couture.

Thirdly , the final insult... Lesnar was gassed before landing that punch. Clearly drained.

No matter what happens in his rematch against Mir , whether he loses again or whether he KOs mir out cold in the first has no importance..Anything this guy can do has been done better by his predecesors...He's bringing nothing new to the table. (or maybe his wwe like shit talk )...

His physic is impressive but so what ? We've already seeen a 350 lbs Sapp...There's a point where size gets ridiculous anyway. (Hong man Choi)..

if we're only talking about athleticism and not size...then it's also irrelevant. (for the reasons i talked about in my pervious post).

If Kevin Randleman (who's a not just a superb athlete , but also a guy who's got insane physical strength ) , anyway if Kev had Werdum's ground game...He'd probably still be ranked at the top 5 today but he isn't.

If Belfort (another gifted athlete ) had Rogerio's bjj & endurance...we wouldn't be talking about an "old belfort" because he'd still be a wrecking machine even today...

(of course , those two are bad examples since Belfort had to deal with the loss of his sister & Kevin had several personal misfortune too , and a bunch of problems with his body )...

Still , two awesome athletes , but also two perfect example of WHY the issue you brought up is irrelevant in this sport. In boxing , when you have a prime Lennox you're in deep fucking shit...(unless you pull some kinda Rahman upset or if your name is Vitali)...But otherwise , due to the guy's size and athleticism...chances are..You're gonna get fucked like everyone else..

The very same guy , with the same size , body type and athleticism...wouldn't necessarily be as problematic in mma , even against a guy like...let's say , Kharitonov. IF the smartest of the two...IF the most endurant and knowledgeable (in bjj , sambo & wrestling ) happens to be Kharitonov... His chances of winning are more than legit.

(see my previous post ...in the video i showed you with Manhoef vs Akiyama).

The correct timing , the decisive move , the smart decisions...not to mention , the chin !...there's so many things that go into the equation that no particular race or type of athlete is ever gonna have the priviledge to dominate this sport.

I can understand how some would think that way (thanks to boxing and the afro american's favorite dish , the "white american can" ) but it doesn't work that way under different rules..

And that's precisely what guys like Roach can't understand either...

The types of athletes you're talking about already exist by the way. But a majority of them aren't at the top. There's a few of them who are doing pretty good for themselves.

First name that comes to mind is Antonio Junior silva ( an athletic super heavy who's got legit submission skills and who's very powerful )...but that didn't stop the lard ass Eric Pele from finishing him in less than 3 minutes..

(which would be unthinkable under any different circumstances). (it's a bit like Butterbean beating a guy like Brewster or Chagaev..though it may be an exaggeration , the comparison isn't too far fetched )...

But this shit happens in mma. Because both fighters constantly have to think about the other guy trying to take him down or landing a low kick or a knee , or slaming him etc...etc..

And maybe in a way , that's the fun thing of the sport (the beauty of the sport). There's max suspense because we now know how common it is to see these things happen.

That's why many are still nervous when fedor is about to fight (even though we all know that he's supposed to win..) but in reality...who the fuck really knows for sure ? nobody. it can't be a total certainty.

When a prime Wlad Klitschko fights Chris Byrd , or when a prime Lennox is confronted to a guy like Morrison , you more or less know what to expect.

But that ain't the same in mma. Who knew that Hunt (especially him) would end up giving Emelianenko (guy with the best balance on the ground) a 7 min battle on the ground ? I certainly wasn't expecting it.. Or that Quinton Jackson would end up struggling and barely winning a split dec against Lindland ? (sure we can argue and say that Lindland is afterall a silver medal in greco ) but still...Jackson wasn't able to KO him in time..and yet , Jackson's overall mma technic is pretty far from being one dimensional..

Was anyone expecting Gonzaga to ko crocop by HIGHKICK no less ! (a fucking bjj fighter...KOing a top kickboxer by hk how ironic ! )

That's the type of shit you see happening in this sport. Is it a good or bad thing ? is it a plague for the sport ? yes and no. If you're afanboy..then it can be quite annoying seeing your "champ" losing his belt every now & thn. if you're just a fan of the sport...then you eventually get used to it.

What to expect from the future of this sport ? a bit of everything..it's gonna be very international for one. That's something all fighters (americans in particular) will have to deal with , even more so than today. And MANY upsets..it's gonna be virtually impossible to have this wrecking athletic beast pulling a tysonesque like terror on any divisions...(because it isn't boxing)...(even if you're feeding the guy monumental cans)..it's not gonna work.


Bang on, on so many levels..........a master has spoken.

I agree that for the hype Lesnar recives he didnt trample over Couture now did he.

[BewareofDawg]

Still not one of you has addressed the fact that Brock Lesnar got CUT FROM THE MINNESOTA VIKINGS and then turned to MMA and became the UFC Heavyweight Champ in 4 fights. The NFL cut him, meaning they didn't even want him on the practice squad, let alone competing with their defense for a starting position.

[québecwarrior]

Still not one of you has addressed the fact that Brock Lesnar got CUT FROM THE MINNESOTA VIKINGS and then turned to MMA and became the UFC Heavyweight Champ in 4 fights. The NFL cut him, meaning they didn't even want him on the practice squad, let alone competing with their defense for a starting position.
They wanted him on the practice squad BewareofDawg, but they wanted him go to the NFL europe before, but he didnt want because he didnt want to be away from his family.

[québecwarrior]

And Lesnar never played football at university, if i'm not mistaken, so did people really believe he was gonna make the team?
He should have tried CFL.

[BewareofDawg]

They wanted him on the practice squad BewareofDawg, but they wanted him go to the NFL europe before, but he didnt want because he didnt want to be away from his family.
Still bro, my point still stands. He's now a top 5 Heavyweight. And the NFL didn't want him on the field yet. :deal

[québecwarrior]

Still bro, my point still stands. He's now a top 5 Heavyweight. And the NFL didn't want him on the field yet. :deal
but its like telling Adrian Peterson to come into MMA, after 2 months of training, hell, even Kimbo would beat him.

[BewareofDawg]

And Lesnar never played football at university, if i'm not mistaken, so did people really believe he was gonna make the team?
He should have tried CFL.
Thats kind of my point. At the "tryout thing" where NFL teams scout players. When the do sprints, jumps, lift and all so the teams could see how fast, strong and agile the players are Lesnar scored off the charts. It wasn't until he actually got into the team and game environment that he started to be inadequate and couldn't compete. It was the mental side of it. I brought this up because Ufaloafaolf stated that MMA is more mental and it takes more then being just an athlete. He also stated that where black athletes have an advantage in physical tools, they lack in acuity. I was just stating that Lesnar could match the NFL players in physical tools, but could not pick up on the other aspects of the game because of his lack of experience or just natural lack of intelligence. Yet he entered MMA and is on the top of the sport now.

[BewareofDawg]

but its like telling Adrian Peterson to come into MMA, after 2 months of training, hell, even Kimbo would beat him.
No man. My argument started if you read back, I was very careful by saying that if say Adrian Peterson started as a kid in MMA he would be great probably. Andd with Lesnar, it is the same. He tried the NFL late in his life, and he tried MMA later. He was able to dominate MMA really, but couldn't make the team in football.

[québecwarrior]

No man. My argument started if you read back, I was very careful by saying that if say Adrian Peterson started as a kid in MMA he would be great probably. Andd with Lesnar, it is the same. He tried the NFL late in his life, and he tried MMA later. He was able to dominate MMA really, but couldn't make the team in football.
Okay, my bad, anyway I disagree.
But what if Peterson lacks toughness?lacks heart? lacks the chin? what if he lacks the mental aspect of fighting?
Pete Spratt was a fucking great athlete, yes, started MMA at a fairly young age, but, was lacking other thing..

Pete Spratt had a complete schollardship to Ohklama University, if im not mistaken, and was a very good receiver.

Whos the best athlete between him or Koscheck?
Kos did wreck him easily, and by your standard Spratt is a better athlete no?

but well, agree to disagree

[ufoalf]

It was the mental side of it. I brought this up because Ufaloafaolf stated that MMA is more mental and it takes more then being just an athlete.

Wow, you're a tool.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be an MMA fighter, but you have to be sharp, composed etc. Perfect example is Fedor, if you read some fighter interviews all of them point to Fedors strongest asset... his mind. Guess what, he's arguably the greatest ever. Lesnar for w/e reason didn't have the intelligence for NFL but he has the sharpness for fighting. It's like comparing strength and agility, its 2 different sub trees of mentality.

[BewareofDawg]

Wow, you're a tool.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be an MMA fighter, but you have to be sharp, composed etc. Perfect example is Fedor, if you read some fighter interviews all of them point to Fedors strongest asset... his mind. Guess what, he's arguably the greatest ever. Lesnar for w/e reason didn't have the intelligence for NFL but he has the sharpness for fighting. It's like comparing strength and agility, its 2 different sub trees of mentality.
Perfect example is the best MMA fighter ever :lol:

No you're the tool. You are the one that claims and states that Black athletes are superior in physical gifts, but inferior in acuity. :deal Which I proved wrong by stating Lesnar couldn't make it in a predominantly black NFL while possessing the same if not superior physical gifts.

Can you remind please, what it is that I stated in this thread that you took objection too? Was it that an increase in black athletes to MMA would not make for better competition and better fighters? How the hell wouldn't it? You would still have existing competitiors, but now you would have a much greater talent pool. Or did you just come at me in this thread to be a complete ignorant ass hole and expose your stubborness and obvious lack of common sense???

[BewareofDawg]

Okay, my bad, anyway I disagree.
But what if Peterson lacks toughness?lacks heart? lacks the chin? what if he lacks the mental aspect of fighting?
Pete Spratt was a fucking great athlete, yes, started MMA at a fairly young age, but, was lacking other thing..

Pete Spratt had a complete schollardship to Ohklama University, if im not mistaken, and was a very good receiver.

Whos the best athlete between him or Koscheck?
Kos did wreck him easily, and by your standard Spratt is a better athlete no?

but well, agree to disagree
He doesn't. You need toughness and heart to play tail back in the NFL.

And never did I ever say that any one given football player can enter the UFC and dominate. I stated that if you take the lot of kids and men who play the sport and who compete to make it in the NFL and all of a sudden funnel them into the MMA world, we are gonna see some great fighters come out of it :deal:deal:deal That is not even up for debate, it's an obvious fact.

[2ironmt]

Thats kind of my point. At the "tryout thing" where NFL teams scout players. When the do sprints, jumps, lift and all so the teams could see how fast, strong and agile the players are Lesnar scored off the charts. It wasn't until he actually got into the team and game environment that he started to be inadequate and couldn't compete. It was the mental side of it. I brought this up because Ufaloafaolf stated that MMA is more mental and it takes more then being just an athlete. He also stated that where black athletes have an advantage in physical tools, they lack in acuity. I was just stating that Lesnar could match the NFL players in physical tools, but could not pick up on the other aspects of the game because of his lack of experience or just natural lack of intelligence. Yet he entered MMA and is on the top of the sport now. well in lesnar's defense about the nfl stint, it was most likely experience (as opposed to iq) he was lacking. i think he basically tried it for one camp, after working out for a while, and almost made the club. those he was competing against had college and likely some pro experience so he was likely well behind the learining curve (did brock play at all in college? sure he must've played high school) in his late 20's and having spent the last 5 or so in the WWE. sure his attitude wasn't the best but almost making an nfl team is an achievement and likely requires some smarts as well.

[ufoalf]

Perfect example is the best MMA fighter ever :lol:

No you're the tool. You are the one that claims and states that Black athletes are superior in physical gifts, but inferior in acuity. :deal Which I proved wrong by stating Lesnar couldn't make it in a predominantly black NFL while possessing the same if not superior physical gifts.

Did I say ALL blacks are physically superior and mentally inferior? And all whites other way around? No. stfu. I called you a tool, because you couldn't restrain yourself from acting like a girl misspelling nickname. Now you're a just a tool.

Can you remind please, what it is that I stated in this thread that you took objection too?

Oh I see the problem. You have hard time reading, you just wait your turn to speak huh?
Since you have obvious comprehension difficulties I'll explain it. First wasn't an objection it was an addition to your initial statement that blacks generally have more muscle mass and thats been scientifically proven. Same as it has been scientifically proven that they have lower IQ therefore less acuity on the field and off. I dunno why you even got offended by that unless you're black yourself. If you are than the idiotic bias that you have is explained.
Was it that an increase in black athletes to MMA would not make for better competition and better fighters? How the hell wouldn't it? You would still have existing competitiors, but now you would have a much greater talent pool. Or did you just come at me in this thread to be a complete ignorant ass hole and expose your stubborness and obvious lack of common sense???
What? :huh Damn bro, polymath might actually be right. I'm not even joking you should check with a doctor because the above is so off base that you need medical help. I think you didn't even read what I've said from the beginning if thats what you think.

[ufoalf]

That is not even up for debate, it's an obvious fact.

I'm sure its not you but your autism speaking. No biggie. Now go look up a definition of "obvious" and "fact". Than go look up definitions of "fantasy". You'll find that the bs you spit is the latter definition.

[Polymath]

No man. My argument started if you read back, I was very careful by saying that if say Adrian Peterson started as a kid in MMA he would be great probably. Andd with Lesnar, it is the same. He tried the NFL late in his life, and he tried MMA later. He was able to dominate MMA really, but couldn't make the team in football.

Let's start again. Not laughing at you.

We'll go through it slowly.

Have you ever seen a football game?

Options:

1/ Yes

2/ No, whats football?

[Spunik]

How good could Stephen Neil had been???

He beat Brock in the NCAA finals and was a starting lineman for the New England Patriots.

This thread has gone down a silly tangent.

More numbers regardless of race makes better competition.

[Spunik]

I am glued to this thread.

According to some, Neil would have sucked. After all he is white. Neil did lose to Kerry McCoy a black dude, for top spot on the U.S. freestyle team. However McCoy could not beat Taymazov, Kuramagomedov or Arek Polotaci, all white. Sooo :huh

I think Barak Obama should have gotten into MMA. He has the mantal attribute(s) to fully compliment his superior Negro athletic gifts.:patsch

In all serious some of those McCoy & Neil matches were outstanding, Neil was actually a bit better on his feet but McCoy was better at getting back points. Neil did win a world championship in 99 I believe.

[Spunik]

Violent, don't you think Karelin in his prime could have won an MMA match or two?

[nfc90210]

Still not one of you has addressed the fact that Brock Lesnar got CUT FROM THE MINNESOTA VIKINGS and then turned to MMA and became the UFC Heavyweight Champ in 4 fights. The NFL cut him, meaning they didn't even want him on the practice squad, let alone competing with their defense for a starting position.

The link below explains why Brock Lesnar’s transition to MMA was easier and more successful than his transition to the NFL…

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Polymath]

MMA will change forever when certain superior athletes get involved. You know who I'm thinking of, dont you?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


That's right, Dart Players! The kind of hand-eye coordination these guys have is INSANE! As our friend Chimba says, pure raw ATHLETICISM! You think if guys witht his sort of spacial awareness and hand-eye coordination had been training MMA from an early age guys like CHris Leben would be in the UFC?!

This isn't even an argument you retards, I'm out of this thread!

[AJAX]

look at that guys wrist, his watch looks like it's going to blow!

[Nuke]

Here is a list of many Player and former player who happen to be black or at the least half black. By your standards ALL of these players should be the best because......... well they are black.



Active

Players currently playing in the NHL or an affiliate team

Forwards


Donald Brashear ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half black[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0)), Left Wing: (Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Philadelphia Flyers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Dustin Byfuglien ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half black[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-1)), Right Wing: (Chicago Blackhawks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Nigel Dawes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (Half Jamaican) [3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2), Left Wing: (New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Andre Deveaux ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Center: (Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Robbie Earl ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[4] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-3), Left Wing: (Minnesota Wild ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Mike Grier ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jarome Iginla ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Nigerian ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0)[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4)), Right Wing: (Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Georges Laraque ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Pittsburgh Penguins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Phoenix Coyotes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jamal Mayers ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Greg Mauldin ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[6] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-5), Right Wing: (Columbus Blue Jackets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Ottawa Senators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Kenndal McArdle ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Left Wing: (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Kyle Okposo ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Nigerian[7] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-6)), Right Wing: (New York Islanders ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Wayne Simmonds ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[8] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-7), Right Wing: Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Anthony Stewart ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4), Centre: (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Chris Stewart ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2), Right Wing: (Colorado Avalanche ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Joel Ward ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[9] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-8), Right Wing: (Nashville Predators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Defensemen


Shawn Belle ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[10] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-9): (Minnesota Wild ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Francis Bouillon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Haitian ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[11] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-10)): (Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Nashville Predators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Trevor Daley ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[12] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-11): (Dallas Stars ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Mark Fraser ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[13] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-12): (New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Derek Joslin ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Johnny Oduya ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Kenyan ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[14] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-CBC-13)): (New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Theo Peckham ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Bryce Salvador ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[15] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Wes-14): (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))

Goaltenders


Chris Beckford-Tseu ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half-Jamaican)[16] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-15) (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)))
Kevin Weekes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Islanders ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Tampa Bay Lightining ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Carolina Hurricanes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))

[Nuke]

Darren Banks ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Left Wing (Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Anson Carter ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) - Forward (Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Carolina Hurricanes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Columbus Blue Jackets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
John Craighead ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Right Wing (Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Dale Craigwell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Centre (San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Steve Fletcher ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)&action=edit&redlink=1)[18] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Indy-17) - Left Wing (Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]),Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jean-Luc Grand-Pierre ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) - Defense (Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Columbus Blue Jackets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Atlanta Thrashers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Val James ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) - Left Wing (Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Brian Johnson ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)&action=edit&redlink=1)[21] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-20) - Right Wing (Detroit Red Wings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Nathan LaFayette ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[22] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-blues-21) - Centre (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Darren Lowe ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[23] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-22) - Right Wing (Pittsburgh Penguins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Mike Marson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) - Forward (Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Craig Martin ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)&action=edit&redlink=1)[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Forward (Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Sandy McCarthy ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half black)[24] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-23) - Right Wing (Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Tampa Bay Lightning ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Philadelphia Flyers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Carolina Hurricanes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Mike McHugh ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[18] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Indy-17) - Left Wing (Minnesota North Stars ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Tony McKegney ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) - Forward (Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Quebec Nordiques ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Minnesota North Stars ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Detroit Red Wings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Chicago Blackhawks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Sean McMorrow ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[25] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-24) - Forward (Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Ray Neufeld ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) - Right Wing (Hartford Whalers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Willie O'Ree ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (first black player in NHL)[26] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-25) - Right Wing (Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Bill Riley ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) - Wing (Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Nathan Robinson ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[27] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-ECHL-26), Forward: (Detroit Red Wings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Bernie Saunders ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[28] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-27) -Right Wing (Quebec Nordiques ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Reggie Savage ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[27] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-ECHL-26) - Right Wing (Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Quebec Nordiques ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Graeme Townshend ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Right Wing (Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Islanders ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Ottawa Senators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Claude Vilgrain ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[22] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-blues-21) - Right Wing (Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Philadelphia Flyers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Peter Worrell ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) -Left Wing (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Colorado Avalanche ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))

[Nuke]

Defensemen


Sean Brown ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) - Defense (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Boston Bruins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jason Doig ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) - Defense (Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Phoenix Coyotes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Paul Jerrard ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Jamaican ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))[29] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-28) - Defense (Minnesota North Stars ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Rumun Ndur ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Defense (Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Atlanta Thrashers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Goaltenders


Fred Brathwaite ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Columbus Blue Jackets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Gerald Coleman ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4) (Tampa Bay Lightning ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Ray Emery ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2) (Ottawa Senators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Grant Fuhr ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (First black player inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame.)[30] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-29) (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Joaquin Gage ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Tyrone Garner ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[31] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-30) (Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Pokey Reddick ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[20] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Ebony-19) (Winnipeg Jets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Other notable players
Akim Aliu ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[14] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-CBC-13) (half Nigerian ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0)[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4))- Right Wing ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)): Drafted 56th overall during the 2007 NHL Entry Draft ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) by the Chicago Blackhawks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Currently playing for the London Knights of the Ontario Hockey League.
Herb Carnegie ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2) - Centre ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)): First Afro-Canadian hockey player to be offered an opportunity to play in the NHL ([Only registered and activated users can see links]).
Art Dorrington ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[14] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-CBC-13) - Centre ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)): First black hockey player to sign an NHL contract when he joined the New York Rangers organization in 1950
Maxime Fortunus ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Defence
Carl Gustafsson ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Forward ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)): Currently playing for Djurgårdens IF ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) of the Swedish Elite League ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Yared Hagos ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (of Ethopian ancestry[32] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-31)) - Forward: Currently with HV71 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in the Swedish elite league, Elitserien ([Only registered and activated users can see links]).
Roger Maxwell ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey)&action=edit&redlink=1)[17] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Richman-16) - Defence
****** Morrison ([Only registered and activated users can see links]******_Morrison) (half black)[33] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-32) - Forward
Mark Owuya ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Ugandan ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))[34] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-33) - Goaltender ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Currently playing for Djurgårdens IF ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) of the Swedish Elite League ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
P. K. Subban ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) - Defence ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Drafted by the Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) as the 43rd overall pick in the 2007 NHL Entry Draft ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). Currently playing for the junior hockey team the Belleville Bulls ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) of the OHL ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Nuke]

I think it is safe to assume that there have been quiet afew blacks that have tried Hockey as a living. I would assume they would be dominating hockey by now, under the belief that blacks are better at everything that is physical then any other race.

[BewareofDawg]

I think it is safe to assume that there have been quiet afew blacks that have tried Hockey as a living. I would assume they would be dominating hockey by now, under the belief that blacks are better at everything that is physical then any other race.
Just shut the fuck up, jesus fucking christ :patsch

Alot of young black youths you know are pushed to participate in hockey?

Maybe you can answer this simple question, the question that the others have just ignored every time I asked it:

As MMA grows, more and more youths will be attracted and steared towards it. Many of these new kids, would've otherwise went to football, basketball, baseball. Do you think that 10-15 years from now, if a good % of black youths that would normally be competeing for spots in the NFL and NBA are now competing in MMA that the competition will be much greater and the talent will be far better then what is there now?

[Polymath]

Just shut the fuck up, jesus fucking christ :patsch

Alot of young black youths you know are pushed to participate in hockey?

Maybe you can answer this simple question, the question that the others have just ignored every time I asked it:

As MMA grows, more and more youths will be attracted and steared towards it. Many of these new kids, would've otherwise went to football, basketball, baseball. Do you think that 10-15 years from now, if a good % of black youths that would normally be competeing for spots in the NFL and NBA are now competing in MMA that the competition will be much greater and the talent will be far better then what is there now?

What about the Dart players?

Hand eye coordination. Thats 'Raw' talent :deal

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ufoalf]

What about the Dart players?

Hand eye coordination. Thats 'Raw' talent :deal

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Yea, actually that guy in your picture is half-black. He's a beast.

[BewareofDawg]

What about the Dart players?

Hand eye coordination. Thats 'Raw' talent :deal

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
This is what you've resorted to in this thread :patsch I'm not the one that brought up hand eye coordination, one of you claimed that blacks weren't superior in it, actually claimed blacks were inferior. I simply brought up basketball players, baseball players, tiger woods :lol: what do you think...huh wide recievers??? You guys brought this up, not me :patsch

[BoxingWM]

You are right (at least partially) BewareofDawg. There is some scientific evidence that "blacks" have a better athletic ability than "whites". But one have to be precise here, because not all blacks do. It's the western-african black people (Nigeria, Ghana, ...) and their descendants who are better at disciplines where you have to combine speed and strength like basketball, football, sprint etc. You just have to look at the history of sprint. Its probably the purest athletic discipline. No white man ever ran 100m under 10 sec, but hundreds (perhaps thousands) of blacks did. AFAIK these were all people with west-african roots. Considering the fact that there were much more white sprinters in history than blacks and that on average white sprinters had better training conditions it really is remarkable. No statistics-tricks here. But it's pretty easy to see if you are not prejudiced and open your eyes. Look at guys like Mayweather, Bryant, Jordan etc. - the way they move, their coordination, their combination of speed and strength - there are just no white people like that...

[québecwarrior]

You are right (at least partially) BewareofDawg. There is some scientific evidence that "blacks" have a better athletic ability than "whites". But one have to be precise here, because not all blacks do. It's the western-african black people (Nigeria, Ghana, ...) and their descendants who are better at disciplines where you have to combine speed and strength like basketball, football, sprint etc. You just have to look at the history of sprint. Its probably the purest athletic discipline. No white man ever ran 100m under 10 sec, but hundreds (perhaps thousands) of blacks did. AFAIK these were all people with west-african roots. Considering the fact that there were much more white sprinters in history than blacks and that on average white sprinters had better training conditions it really is remarkable. No statistics-tricks here. But it's pretty easy to see if you are not prejudiced and open your eyes. Look at guys like Mayweather, Bryant, Jordan etc. - the way they move, their coordination, their combination of speed and strength - there are just no white people like that...
Look at guy like Bill Kazmaier, Jon Pall Sigmarsson, Magnus Ver Magnusson, Mariusz Pudzianoswki, their combination of strenght and endurance- there are just no black people like that

[BoxingWM]

Look at guy like Bill Kazmaier, Jon Pall Sigmarsson, Magnus Ver Magnusson, Mariusz Pudzianoswki, their combination of strenght and endurance- there are just no black people like that

Well, you are talking strength here. Not strength and speed as a combination we are arguing about here. You can gain strength through hard training - strength is very much a function of training. White men can of course be stronger than black men if they train harder.

What about the sprinters where pure athleticism counts?

[québecwarrior]

Well, you are talking strength here. Not strength and speed as a combination we are arguing about here. You can gain strength through hard training - strength is very much a function of training. White men can of course be stronger than black men if they train harder.

What about the sprinters where pure athleticism counts?
yep you are right there apart from the fact, that yes you can gain strenght, but you are born to be the world strongest man, not made. You need to have that special body to do so..Mariusz Pudzianowski is a training machine, yes, but he had the genetic
was just pointing out, that track and field, arent the only important athletic category.

[BoxingWM]

What you pointed out about the genetic base is right as well - I think we somehow agree then :)

BTW Pudzianowski is probably not the best example as he is known to be a heavy steroid user ;)

[ufoalf]

Yea, we got it, Dawg, BoxingVM, you think blacks are genetically superior in every way. Your opinion is pretty clear.
Don't none of you other mofos call them inferior in anything, or you're racist. :lol:

[québecwarrior]

What you pointed out about the genetic base is right as well - I think we somehow agree then :)

BTW Pudzianowski is probably not the best example as he is known to be a heavy steroid user ;)
because sprinter are clean?

[BoxingWM]

Yea, we got it, Dawg, BoxingVM, you think blacks are genetically superior in every way. Your opinion is pretty clear.
Don't none of you other mofos call them inferior in anything, or you're racist. :lol:

Please reread my posts ufoalf, I never stated they were superior in every way. Furthermore I'm neither a mofo nor racist and my nick is BoxingWM not ...VM ;)

[BoxingWM]

because sprinter are clean?

Some are some are not, but Pudzianowski isn't for sure :)

[ufoalf]

Please reread my posts ufoalf, I never stated they were superior in every way. Furthermore I'm neither a mofo nor racist and my nick is BoxingWM not ...VM ;)


So they're not "genetically" superior in everything? Since you say that than it must mean you think they are inferior in something. Tell me what are they inferior in? We obviously established BewareofDawgs opinion. I wanna know yours. Be careful what you say, this is a minefield.

[BoxingWM]

Ok, I repeat and clarify then.

So they're not "genetically" superior in everything?


I never said "they" are superior or not superior in "everything". As I said there is some scientific evidence that black people from western Africa and their descendants are indeed superior in their athletic ability, particularly in their unique combination of speed and strength.

Since you say that than it must mean you think they are inferior in something.

No, AFAIK there is no scientific evidence that they are inferior in something, especially no evidence that they have lower IQs or something similar. I think they could have less endurance, because of their more muscular build though. Remember we are talking about the western Africans here. Eastern Africans are much less muscular for example and known for their endurance - Kenyans and Ethiopians are pretty much dominating long distance running (look at 5000m+)... So we cannot talk about "blacks" as a "race" at all - Africa has far more genetic variability than any other continent (after all we all probably have our roots there).

Be careful what you say, this is a minefield.

I know :) And unfortunately this topic is highly political incorrect... Human "kinds" or "races" are very similar but must not be equal in all of their abilities! After all you wouldn't expect the pygmies to be outperforming some north europeans at high jump ;)

[scurlaruntings]

look at that guys wrist, his watch looks like it's going to blow!
You should see what he looks like now:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[scurlaruntings]

Still not one of you has addressed the fact that Brock Lesnar got CUT FROM THE MINNESOTA VIKINGS and then turned to MMA and became the UFC Heavyweight Champ in 4 fights. The NFL cut him, meaning they didn't even want him on the practice squad, let alone competing with their defense for a starting position.They didnt want him because he was an asshole and always getting into fights. Lesnar attitude is awful. Always has been. The guy has oodles of natural talent and of course throughout his career has had alot of smoke blown up his ass. The Only reason why he came to MMA was because it was his only shot at a legitmate income. He burnt his bridges in the WWE and i doubt he wanted to stay on the Japanese wrestling circuit. As big a meathead as Brock is he knows "how" to sell himself and he knows "how" to make money.

[AJAX]

They didnt want him because he was an asshole and always getting into fights. Lesnar attitude is awful. Always has been. The guy has oodles of natural talent and of course throughout his career has had alot of smoke blown up his ass. The Only reason why he came to MMA was because it was his only shot at a legitmate income. He burnt his bridges in the WWE and i doubt he wanted to stay on the Japanese wrestling circuit. As big a meathead as Brock is he knows "how" to sell himself and he knows "how" to make money.

I don't agree with you often but well put.

[ufoalf]

You should see what he looks like now:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You know you're fat when you lose 200lbs and you're still fat.

[scurlaruntings]

You know you're fat when you lose 200lbs and you're still fat.Yeah only problem is those 200lbs only came off his head. The rest of his body hasnt caught up yet.

[Spunik]

They didnt want him because he was an asshole and always getting into fights. Lesnar attitude is awful. Always has been. The guy has oodles of natural talent and of course throughout his career has had alot of smoke blown up his ass. The Only reason why he came to MMA was because it was his only shot at a legitmate income. He burnt his bridges in the WWE and i doubt he wanted to stay on the Japanese wrestling circuit. As big a meathead as Brock is he knows "how" to sell himself and he knows "how" to make money.

I also heard he did not have good side to side or lateral movement needed for the NFL.

[scurlaruntings]

I also heard he did not have good side to side or lateral movement needed for the NFL.That could have been worked on. Brock is simply an asshole. He wasnt liked by many wrestlers behind the scenes in the WWE or OVW. Dudes attitude just sucks plain and simple.

[québecwarrior]

Lesnar is clearly an asshole, he thought he was the biggest thing in WWE after 4 months.

[Nuke]

Alot more whites then blacks are in in colleges with good wrestling programs. That might be a pretty big reason.



Maybe there IS a reason? and I don't mean to imply anything about income, blacks have segregated Universities there is no reason why they couldn't have top notch wrestling programs, after all they are superior and wouldn't have clumsy white people getting in the way.

By your theory of blacks being superior you would think atleast one of these schools would have the top wrestling program at it.

Iowa and Ohio State have both whites and blacks on the team why are they NOT ALWAYS the best wrestlers on their teams then? You would think the genetically superior black athletes would ALWAYS be on top after all athletism is the only attribute that matters, right?

[Nuke]

Oh and just because you can remember plays in a playbook doesn't mean in a nanosecond you know what to do when someone is punching your face. Remembering where you run a route and hope the qb throws a ball to you I would think is alittle different then learning not to get KO'd or subbed.

[Nuke]

such as this one..
[Only registered and activated users can see links]




See also

Melvin Guillard Vs. Josh Neer

[Polymath]

Lesnar is clearly an asshole, he thought he was the biggest thing in WWE after 4 months.

I kind of hoped he was playing the WWF villain, but its seems like youre right he really is an asshole. He's taking over Cheik Kongo as UFC's most annoying meathead.

[chimba]

Here is a list of many Player and former player who happen to be black or at the least half black. By your standards ALL of these players should be the best because......... well they are black.



Active

Players currently playing in the NHL or an affiliate team

Forwards


Donald Brashear ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half black[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0)), Left Wing: (Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Philadelphia Flyers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Dustin Byfuglien ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half black[2] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-1)), Right Wing: (Chicago Blackhawks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Nigel Dawes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (Half Jamaican) [3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2), Left Wing: (New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Andre Deveaux ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Center: (Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Robbie Earl ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[4] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-3), Left Wing: (Minnesota Wild ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Mike Grier ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Washington Capitals ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Buffalo Sabres ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jarome Iginla ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Nigerian ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0)[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4)), Right Wing: (Calgary Flames ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Georges Laraque ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Pittsburgh Penguins ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Phoenix Coyotes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Jamal Mayers ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0), Right Wing: (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), Toronto Maple Leafs ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Greg Mauldin ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[6] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-5), Right Wing: (Columbus Blue Jackets ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Ottawa Senators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Kenndal McArdle ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Left Wing: (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Kyle Okposo ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Nigerian[7] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-6)), Right Wing: (New York Islanders ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Wayne Simmonds ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[8] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-7), Right Wing: Los Angeles Kings ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Anthony Stewart ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[5] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-NYT-4), Centre: (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Chris Stewart ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[3] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Cecil-2), Right Wing: (Colorado Avalanche ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Joel Ward ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[9] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-8), Right Wing: (Nashville Predators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Defensemen


Shawn Belle ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[10] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-9): (Minnesota Wild ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Francis Bouillon ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Haitian ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[11] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-10)): (Montreal Canadiens ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Nashville Predators ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Trevor Daley ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[12] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-11): (Dallas Stars ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Mark Fraser ([Only registered and activated users can see links](ice_hockey))[13] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-12): (New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Derek Joslin ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (San Jose Sharks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Johnny Oduya ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half Kenyan ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[14] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-CBC-13)): (New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Theo Peckham ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): (Edmonton Oilers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) affiliate)
Bryce Salvador ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[15] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Wes-14): (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))
Goaltenders


Chris Beckford-Tseu ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (half-Jamaican)[16] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-15) (St. Louis Blues ([Only registered and activated users can see links](hockey)))
Kevin Weekes ([Only registered and activated users can see links])[1] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]_note-Jet-0) (Florida Panthers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Vancouver Canucks ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Islanders ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Tampa Bay Lightining ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Carolina Hurricanes ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New York Rangers ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), New Jersey Devils ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))


Youve clearly lost the plot:-( What the fuck are you talking about?? And why are you listing black hockey players? Whats your point?

[scurlaruntings]

See also

Melvin Guillard Vs. Josh NeerSo whats this video supposed to prove?:blood

[Nuke]

So whats this video supposed to prove?:blood



That the "preceived" more athletic, more explosive fighter doesn't always win. Fighting is more then just physical attributes, it is a combination of physical and mental abilities. What the hell do you think it proves?

[scurlaruntings]

That the "preceived" more athletic, more explosive fighter doesn't always win. Fighting is more then just physical attributes, it is a combination of physical and mental abilities. What the hell do you think it proves?Why dont you tell me? So far iv seen a thread umpteen pages long with semantic bullshit in tow.

[Nuke]

Youve clearly lost the plot:-( What the fuck are you talking about?? And why are you listing black hockey players? Whats your point?




Dickhead said something earlier about if blacks choose a sport then they will easily dominate it because the are superior in athletic ability. My point was , they have been playing and are still playing and if they where SO fukin' superior then why are these blacks that play now and played in the past NOT the best players in the league?


PS: Hockey was mentioned as one sport they would dominate if they choose to play it.

[Nuke]

Why dont you tell me? So far iv seen a thread umpteen pages long with semantic bullshit in tow.





I will try to slow it down for you.




Someone mentioned "blacks" are superior and would dominate MMA once they become interested because of their superior "athletic" ability. I think the rest of us are trying to convince this fukwad that it takes MORE then "atheltic" ability to consistently win in MMA.


You obviously think they are superior also, correct?

[scurlaruntings]

I will try to slow it down for you.




Someone mentioned "blacks" are superior and would dominate MMA once they become interested because of their superior "athletic" ability. I think the rest of us are trying to convince this fukwad that it takes MORE then "atheltic" ability to consistently win in MMA.


You obviously think they are superior also, correct?Thanks for the moment of clarity.

[chimba]

I will try to slow it down for you.




Someone mentioned "blacks" are superior and would dominate MMA once they become interested because of their superior "athletic" ability. I think the rest of us are trying to convince this fukwad that it takes MORE then "atheltic" ability to consistently win in MMA.


You obviously think they are superior also, correct?

No this was not the point...It was under the premise that had eveything else been the same, training, work ethic, intelligence..the more athletic (any race!!!) would have a distinct advantage in MMA.

This point is indubitable

The secondary point is had some of these "athletic' people in other sports chose MMA at a young enough age instead of following the money in other sports, MMA as we know it would have been much better in terms of quality.

We would be seeing less of guys like Leben and the guy who fought Velasquez last night because they would unlikely be able cut it.

[Nuke]

Thanks for the moment of clarity.



Do you just read the last posts on threads? Or do you actually read the whole thread? I hope its the former.

[Nuke]

It is TOTALLY impossible that EVERYTHING could be the same but if it could of course the person with the better side of the only difference would win. With everything the same the smarter fighter would beat the dumbass, the iron chinned fighter would have the better chance then the china chinned guy. The blackbelt bjj guy beats the brown belt. Of course this is if you took out chance.

[boxingcar]

No this was not the point...It was under the premise that had eveything else been the same, training, work ethic, intelligence..the more athletic (any race!!!) would have a distinct advantage in MMA.

This point is indubitable

The secondary point is had some of these "athletic' people in other sports chose MMA at a young enough age instead of following the money in other sports, MMA as we know it would have been much better in terms of quality.

We would be seeing less of guys like Leben and the guy who fought Velasquez last night because they would unlikely be able cut it.

Good point , well..sort of. I disagree with the final part of your post.
1 - it's not like MMA is over-saturated with people like Leben to the point where it harms the quality of the sport.

2 - If you disagree with 1 , then you have to use this one sided point of view on every imaginable sports. (i'm sorry but even boxing itself , is filled with tons of bums )

3 - The first part of your post seems logical to me...but not realistic enough. Are we talking about a human or a cyborg ? I've never seen a "perfect" fighter. There's no such thing... Tyson wasn't one..nor Muhammad Ali , or Vitali , or Calzaghes , RJJ or Lennox...or Fedor , Nogueira , GSP , Anderson , Penn , Aerts , Hoost , Schilt...none of them are perfect.

The closest thing to perfection was Aleksander Karelin in Greco. And even he , wasn't perfect.

[ufoalf]

No this was not the point...It was under the premise that had eveything else been the same, training, work ethic, intelligence..the more athletic (any race!!!) would have a distinct advantage in MMA.

No, no... that was not the argument. At least not what we've been discussing for past few pages. Here's the premise "african americans have genetic athletic gifts that no other race poses". If the likes of African American NFL players were to do MMA since they were children then they would dominate the sport. The athletes you see in MMA today "BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, etc" gold medalists and world champions are lightyears inferior athletes to that of NFL roster, especially African Americans.

Defend that bullshit all you want.

[chimba]

Boxingcar

1. I didnt say it harms the quality, MMA is still relatively new so the novelty factor is stil there. No one has the time and day to be picky at this point. People still loves it no matter what. More are looking for a brawl than show of techniques at this point.

But in saying that, you can clearly see in alot of cases that in terms of quality of fighters even with its top organization like the UFC, MMA is not there yet and will do well by attracting more youths to take it up.



2. Boxing is filled with a ton of bums because theres are so much more participants involve. Its the law of averages. But put the top fighters of both sports side by side and you can clearly tell the more refined sport. I dont want to make a poll to prove this, theres no need. This is also a more established sport, hundreds and hundred of great fighters...MMA has maybe 5 that youd call great.


3. We are not looking for that, we are looking at more numbers and better athletes to join, no one is going to be perfect but it will certainly help the sports quality to have the top notch athletes in there. It can only help, it can never hurt the sport to attract more talented guys


we need something even a few notches off Karelins level and that would be a good start to join MMA

[chimba]

No, no... that was not the argument. At least not what we've been discussing for past few pages. Here's the premise "african americans have genetic athletic gifts that no other race poses". If the likes of African American NFL players were to do MMA since they were children then they would dominate the sport. The athletes you see in MMA today "BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, etc" gold medalists and world champions are lightyears inferior athletes to that of NFL roster, especially African Americans.

Defend that bullshit all you want.

If more african americans chooses MMA and not Football, basketball or boxing or other sports. The level of quality of MMA will be alot greater. Theres no doubt

[ufoalf]

First of all, we're not talking about which sport is more refined. Athleticism has nothing to do with maturity of the sport. In fact, your argument is even more shit if we consider it because the likes of combat systems used in MMA today is hundreds in some cases thousands of years more developed. Even though MMA in its entirety is young.

Second, you're evading the point. Are you saying that BJJ Judo, Wrestling etc world Champions and now MMA champions are lesser athletes than African American NFL players?
To respond to your irrelevant response: So what you're claiming is that if more youths other than of african american descent join MMA it won't be a lot better?

[chimba]

First of all, we're not talking about which sport is more refined. Athleticism has nothing to do with maturity of the sport. In fact, your argument is even more shit if we consider it because the likes of combat systems used in MMA today is hundreds in some cases thousands of years more developed. Even though MMA in its entirety is young.

Second, you're evading the point. Are you saying that BJJ Judo, Wrestling etc world Champions and now MMA champions are lesser athletes than African American NFL players?
To respond to your irrelevant response: So what you're claiming is that if more youths other than of african american descent join MMA it won't be a lot better?

BJJ and Judo absolutely...if you know the history of the arts and how partly these two were conceived. Wrestling yes they are very athletic but less than 10% of world class wrestlers of the last 15 years have partcipated in MMA.

My last point is had more african american have pursued wrestling as a primary sport , there would have been more great black wrestlers than there are now.

February is black history month, and the matches of Lincoln and Douglass couldn’t be more significant to wrestling. But as we examine the accomplishments of African-American wrestlers, the question of relevance will inevitably be raised.

How do you measure the significance of former Iowa Hawkeye Simon Roberts becoming the first African-American NCAA champion in 1957. How do measure the feat of Bobby Douglas becoming the first African-American Olympic wrestler in 1964, becoming a World medalist in 1966 or that he became the first black coach to lead a college team (Arizona State) to an NCAA team title in 1988? Where does Lloyd Keaser rate in U.S. wrestling history after he became the first black World champion in 1973 or that Kenny Monday was the first black Olympic champ in 1988? Is it important that Jimmy Carr, the youngest wrestler to make an Olympic team, was black?

The answer, quite simply, to these questions, is that each milestone was extremely significant to the U.S. wrestling community. The achievements of the aforementioned African-American wrestlers matter greatly to our sport.

Consider Lee Kemp, an African American who may be the greatest American wrestler ever. Three NCAA titles, three World titles, and four undefeated international seasons broke new ground in the late seventies and early eighties. Only Jimmy Carter’s boycott in 1980 kept him from Olympic gold.

But Kemp didn’t even start wrestling until the ninth grade. And as Kemp’s passion for wrestling grew, so did his curiosity. While flipping through old wrestling magazines in his high school coach’s office, Kemp learned about great wrestlers of the past. Dan Gable, Wade Schalles, and Wayne Wells were just a few of the wrestlers he found in those wrestling publications.

Yet when there was a black wrestler in the magazine, Kemp took special notice. When Lloyd Keaser, James Tannehill or Carl Adams appeared, there was an immediate attraction.

“Whenever I saw a black wrestler I would relate to that person,” said Kemp. “Because the sport is not participated by a lot of African-American wrestlers, there are times when I’ll conduct a clinic and there is only one black wrestler. I do notice that those black wrestlers gravitate toward me. I’m sensitive to that and I do pay attention to that.

[Utter1]

Why dont you tell me? So far iv seen a thread umpteen pages long with semantic bullshit in tow.


So true

[Utter1]

Everyone is getting into such a subjective debate......thats its actually pointless.

Its not about black, white, asian, or martian.

Its more about the individual.

Look at this very moment........the best fighters in the heavyweight division for MMA and Boxing are White and from the soviet block.

Does this mean that whites are superior? Of course not......20 years ago its was African American the best......in 10 years in might be a Spanish, or Samoan guy.

Look at Fedor and his brother........so are brothers, and have the same genetics......but they are so vastly different in fighting.......same with the klitschkos.........so imagine trying to brand entire races as some sort of collective.

Yeah asians are this, black are that.........so fucking stupid.

Africa.........Europe, south america, asia etc have so many different cultures and ethnic backgrounds that grouping them it futile.

[boxingcar]

Boxingcar

1. I didnt say it harms the quality, MMA is still relatively new so the novelty factor is stil there. No one has the time and day to be picky at this point. People still loves it no matter what. More are looking for a brawl than show of techniques at this point.

But in saying that, you can clearly see in alot of cases that in terms of quality of fighters even with its top organization like the UFC, MMA is not there yet and will do well by attracting more youths to take it up.



2. Boxing is filled with a ton of bums because theres are so much more participants involve. Its the law of averages. But put the top fighters of both sports side by side and you can clearly tell the more refined sport. I dont want to make a poll to prove this, theres no need. This is also a more established sport, hundreds and hundred of great fighters...MMA has maybe 5 that youd call great.


3. We are not looking for that, we are looking at more numbers and better athletes to join, no one is going to be perfect but it will certainly help the sports quality to have the top notch athletes in there. It can only help, it can never hurt the sport to attract more talented guys


we need something even a few notches off Karelins level and that would be a good start to join MMA

1 - That's not what i meant...the novelty factor is irrelevant..When i'm talking about harming the sport..i'm referring to the talent pool. The likes of Leben and what not aren't doing any damage to the talent pool...They're just there...just like there's boring (but good) fighters , exciting fighters , technical ones , elite level , B level (gatekeeper material) , C level , "has beens"...There's a bit of everything already (pretty much like in boxing..it's the same in many sports.. not jsut combat sports)

I also disagree with the 2nd paragraph...The talent is not there yet ? Well..It depends how you look at it..If you're talking about americans only...then you're partially right... If you're talking about the global participants then no...You're wrong on that one too. You need to be more accurate with your point of view chimba...

2 - No...

3 - Good point...However i still fail to see why those superior fighters would all automatically have to be afro-americans ? Are you black yourself ? Or are you a white american who's used to seeing afro americans raping white american athletes in all disciplines ? Are you asian ? latino ? european maybe ?...Seriously , i'd be curious to know...

You see ,from my perspective , i've noticed a few things about white american males...I may be dead wrong , but , anyway , i'll say it..

It seems to me , that white americans have some sort of inferiority complex...maybe on a subconscious level. White american youths live in a culture in which black history month , positive discrimination..(or , in today's case) having a black prez is part of the norm. (or a half black , half white prez )...

USA invented the expression "white hope". ( Courtesy of Jack Dempsey ).

[Grievesy]

Everyone is getting into such a subjective debate......thats its actually pointless.

Its not about black, white, asian, or martian.

Its more about the individual.

Look at this very moment........the best fighters in the heavyweight division for MMA and Boxing are White and from the soviet block.

Does this mean that whites are superior? Of course not......20 years ago its was African American the best......in 10 years in might be a Spanish, or Samoan guy.

Look at Fedor and his brother........so are brothers, and have the same genetics......but they are so vastly different in fighting.......same with the klitschkos.........so imagine trying to brand entire races as some sort of collective.

Yeah asians are this, black are that.........so fucking stupid.

Africa.........Europe, south america, asia etc have so many different cultures and ethnic backgrounds that grouping them it futile.

The most sensible post I have seen in this poxy thread.:good

Seriously this is getting boring.

[boxingcar]

So it only would be normal for a black or white american to automatically assume that all afro-americans are > whites.

Even though this assumption is flawed , it's irrelevant to the average american guy...(since , the white guy is used to seeing his ass getting owned by the athletically "superior" black guy...

and well, the black guy is used to being worshiped , defended by the media. You can see it all the time , just watch a basketball game..Black players on the court , whites , applauding...

I sometimes even wonder if there's not an even bigger agenda behind all this...Black youths have more respect for the likes of 50cent or in total admiration for Bryant..And yet , 95% have no clue who Neil deGrasse Tyson is ( now that's a real black role model )

[boxingcar]

If Tiger Woods would've been another white old fart...No one would give a flying fuck about the guy's achievements. No media attention..No young black kids would be looking at the guy as an "example" for success...etc..

Anyone who says the contrary is only lying to himself. You don't even have to be white to realise this reality.

Just imagine for a second..Imagine if the likes of Nadal & Federer were both afro-americans.. it would be a total hysteria. Sure , the fans love these two...but just imagine how different the media would handle the case...Think about it for a second...I've seen articles talking about Tsonga (the black kid who looks like Muhammad Ali's twin brother ) , as if he was the "hope" of the sport...That's how desperate the white media is for another huge black prodigee... (even though the guy only speaks french)..

I wonder how it feels for the white american to witness a 90% black dominated sport (basketball) , with not a single elite to represent them ? Afterall , it's impossible to count the likes of Ginobili , Gasol , Nash ,Nowitzki etc..(in other words "foreigners" ) , that would be too easy ...none of them are americans. and yet , when you think of whites who are worth a shit in the nba...you're forced to admit that they're all imported...& not born and bred in america. (with a few rare exceptions , and i'm of course not counting the likes of Bird or Stockton since they're retired)

In boxing...same thing...we're in 2009..and white americans are still waiting for their "white hope"...He's nowhere to be seen...Again , you can't count the likes of Bute , Calzaghes, Klitschko etc...(eastern euros or other , imported white boxers)...None of them are here to represent white america. (mentioning Pavlik would almost be insulting...the guy is the definition of white hope)

And you can't even blame it on the "era" since all eras had their ups and downs. Back in the 60's..half of the participants were banned from fighting with the pros.. americans used to have the quasi-entire monopoly of the sport and they would label their champs as "world" champions. (even though their records dictated a 98% american opposition). Tyson...another media creation...fantastic athlete but who (like Golota) , was a mental midget...

Americans are champions when it comes to create legends and hype...Take Riddick Bowe ...one dimensional at best..and yet he was dominating his era...If it wasn't for Golota's mental issues..Riddick would've been toast by this overrated moron. Foreman...At 44 or 45...KOED the overrated Moorer...(as overrated as Pavlik or maybe even more..)

All eras had their ups and downs..of course it's easier to shit on today's era though..especially because ever since the boxing scene became (finally) "international"...americans never had the opportunity to have the monopoly of the sport like they used to. So they have to find excuses..

the final refuge ? The NFL of course...The NFL aka...america's last bastillion..."the" sport where they don't have do deal against a world competition. The superbowl alone is part of america's culture now..(though half just watch it for the fucking commercials )...

The NFL is constituated of several types of athletes.. Average ones , top ones , smart ones ,overrated ones & huge lard asses with amazing strengh & poor cardio... All without exception are overpaid (though no one will ever be as overpaid as Tiger Woods ).

Money doesn't = top athletes...it's a false assumption and yet , there's many who are paid millions.. It's almost in some way equal to an argumentum ad crumenam.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

ex: If you’re so smart, why aren’t you rich?

We could do a little variation...(like most boxing fans often say)...
"if they had any talent...they'd go into boxing"
(which is utterly ridiculous since 95% of mma participants aren't boxing rejects , and happen to have a greco-wrestling or judo or bjj background..it only seems logical to follow the mma route )

The fact that the NFL was brought up by the TS...demonstrates perfectly how one dimensional his point of view is. and it also reflects how little he knows about the sport and how little he takes into consideration...( stamina , chin , workrate , endurance , determination , intelligence , upsets , strength , cuts ...expecting the unexpected etc..)

At least that's my take on it...

Who knows...maybe TS is right...But don't have high expecations though...cause unlike boxing...we didn't have to wait + 50 or 80 years to have an international scene.... You already have the brazilians & other latinos...euros , eastern euros..asians....maybe in a distant future it'll be them against afro-americans (and not a single white american to represent..pretty much like in boxing today)...Maybe it'll be the case ? (though i sincerly doubt it since the greco roman scene is filled with white american participants)...but , you never know...

But please...never globalise all whites in the same basket. Or to put it bluntly don't take the case of white american athletes for a universal generality. It ain't happening...

And i'll go as far as to say that americans are even lucky that no one gives a shit about the NFL , the superbowl wouldn't always end up in american hands if it wasn't for the secluded participation of this sport. Keep enjoying it while you can though.

but i'm starting to sound like an asshole and a total hypocrite too...because in reality , it's not like all white american athletes are no hopers...there's plenty of impressive white american athletes too..One thing is for sure though , all these decades of seeing white american bred cans getting owned in boxing , didn't help..boxing never was the white american boy's forte.

[chimba]

1 - That's not what i meant...the novelty factor is irrelevant..When i'm talking about harming the sport..i'm referring to the talent pool. The likes of Leben and what not aren't doing any damage to the talent pool...They're just there...just like there's boring (but good) fighters , exciting fighters , technical ones , elite level , B level (gatekeeper material) , C level , "has beens"...There's a bit of everything already (pretty much like in boxing..it's the same in many sports.. not jsut combat sports)

I also disagree with the 2nd paragraph...The talent is not there yet ? Well..It depends how you look at it..If you're talking about americans only...then you're partially right... If you're talking about the global participants then no...You're wrong on that one too. You need to be more accurate with your point of view chimba...

2 - No...

3 - Good point...However i still fail to see why those superior fighters would all automatically have to be afro-americans ? Are you black yourself ? Or are you a white american who's used to seeing afro americans raping white american athletes in all disciplines ? Are you asian ? latino ? european maybe ?...Seriously , i'd be curious to know...

You see ,from my perspective , i've noticed a few things about white american males...I may be dead wrong , but , anyway , i'll say it..

It seems to me , that white americans have some sort of inferiority complex...maybe on a subconscious level. White american youths live in a culture in which black history month , positive discrimination..(or , in today's case) having a black prez is part of the norm. (or a half black , half white prez )...

USA invented the expression "white hope". ( Courtesy of Jack Dempsey ).


Of course its hurting the sport to have guys like the Kimbos of the worlds and a Stoljnik fighting Velazquez.. It may make it popular at the moment but if you have a street brawler Kimbo as a main event, what does that say??

The sport is at a young age and needs all the help it can get in promoting quality product. This is why alot of boxing enthusiasts bash the sport. And I know some people still doesnt treat it seriously but watches it to see someones head gets bashed in.

Boxing can have its share of circus but it has had a 100 years of history of great fighters and great fights and even then it still gets bashed periodically.

The third point is simple and I dont want to get into studies, lets just presume that there is no difference between the races (Asians, Blacks, Caucasians) physiology, which is absurd but for the sake of argument lets say that we are all the same and athletic abilities were distributed randomly.

Say there is a pool of 300 people 100 each for each race. All 300 have the same athletic abilities, same intelligence, same work ethic.

Lets assume that the 90 of the blacks went into football because this is where the money is. Only 10 went into MMA.

Heres my point, had these 90 black athletes chose MMA as well instead of Football, would MMA be better of be worse off??

This has been the point all along, Im Filipino, I can look at this objectively for the mere fact that I watch the NFL and I say, damn this sport requires alot of speed and power..hmmm traits that certainly any aspiring MMA fighter wouldnt want:lol:. Gee I wonder if these guys playing defense, running the ball (which are mostly blacks, unless Im colorblind) got into MMA or Martial arts. I could care less about Whites vs. Blacks:lol: I just see this shit and base my conclusions on what I see.

[chimba]

If Tiger Woods would've been another white old fart...No one would give a flying fuck about the guy's achievements. No media attention..No young black kids would be looking at the guy as an "example" for success...etc..

Anyone who says the contrary is only lying to himself. You don't even have to be white to realise this reality.

Just imagine for a second..Imagine if the likes of Nadal & Federer were both afro-americans.. it would be a total hysteria. Sure , the fans love these two...but just imagine how different the media would handle the case...Think about it for a second...I've seen articles talking about Tsonga (the black kid who looks like Muhammad Ali's twin brother ) , as if he was the "hope" of the sport...That's how desperate the white media is for another huge black prodigee... (even though the guy only speaks french)..

I wonder how it feels for the white american to witness a 90% black dominated sport (basketball) , with not a single elite to represent them ? Afterall , it's impossible to count the likes of Ginobili , Gasol , Nash ,Nowitzki etc..(in other words "foreigners" ) , that would be too easy ...none of them are americans. and yet , when you think of whites who are worth a shit in the nba...you're forced to admit that they're all imported...& not born and bred in america. (with a few rare exceptions , and i'm of course not counting the likes of Bird or Stockton since they're retired)

In boxing...same thing...we're in 2009..and white americans are still waiting for their "white hope"...He's nowhere to be seen...Again , you can't count the likes of Bute , Calzaghes, Klitschko etc...(eastern euros or other , imported white boxers)...None of them are here to represent white america. (mentioning Pavlik would almost be insulting...the guy is the definition of white hope)

And you can't even blame it on the "era" since all eras had their ups and downs. Back in the 60's..half of the participants were banned from fighting with the pros.. americans used to have the quasi-entire monopoly of the sport and they would label their champs as "world" champions. (even though their records dictated a 98% american opposition). Tyson...another media creation...fantastic athlete but who (like Golota) , was a mental midget...

Americans are champions when it comes to create legends and hype...Take Riddick Bowe ...one dimensional at best..and yet he was dominating his era...If it wasn't for Golota's mental issues..Riddick would've been toast by this overrated moron. Foreman...At 44 or 45...KOED the overrated Moorer...(as overrated as Pavlik or maybe even more..)

All eras had their ups and downs..of course it's easier to shit on today's era though..especially because ever since the boxing scene became (finally) "international"...americans never had the opportunity to have the monopoly of the sport like they used to. So they have to find excuses..

the final refuge ? The NFL of course...The NFL aka...america's last bastillion..."the" sport where they don't have do deal against a world competition. The superbowl alone is part of america's culture now..(though half just watch it for the fucking commercials )...

The NFL is constituated of several types of athletes.. Average ones , top ones , smart ones ,overrated ones & huge lard asses with amazing strengh & poor cardio... All without exception are overpaid (though no one will ever be as overpaid as Tiger Woods ).

Money doesn't = top athletes...it's a false assumption and yet , there's many who are paid millions.. It's almost in some way equal to an argumentum ad crumenam.
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ex: If you’re so smart, why aren’t you rich?

We could do a little variation...(like most boxing fans often say)...
"if they had any talent...they'd go into boxing"
(which is utterly ridiculous since 95% of mma participants aren't boxing rejects , and happen to have a greco-wrestling or judo or bjj background..it only seems logical to follow the mma route )

The fact that the NFL was brought up by the TS...demonstrates perfectly how one dimensional his point of view is. and it also reflects how little he knows about the sport and how little he takes into consideration...( stamina , chin , workrate , endurance , determination , intelligence , upsets , strength , cuts ...expecting the unexpected etc..)

At least that's my take on it...

Who knows...maybe TS is right...But don't have high expecations though...cause unlike boxing...we didn't have to wait + 50 or 80 years to have an international scene.... You already have the brazilians & other latinos...euros , eastern euros..asians....maybe in a distant future it'll be them against afro-americans (and not a single white american to represent..pretty much like in boxing today)...Maybe it'll be the case ? (though i sincerly doubt it since the greco roman scene is filled with white american participants)...but , you never know...

But please...never globalise all whites in the same basket. Or to put it bluntly don't take the case of white american athletes for a universal generality. It ain't happening...

And i'll go as far as to say that americans are even lucky that no one gives a shit about the NFL , the superbowl wouldn't always end up in american hands if it wasn't for the secluded participation of this sport. Keep enjoying it while you can though.

but i'm starting to sound like an asshole and a total hypocrite too...because in reality , it's not like all white american athletes are no hopers...there's plenty of impressive white american athletes too..One thing is for sure though , all these decades of seeing white american bred cans getting owned in boxing , didn't help..boxing never was the white american boy's forte.


I agree with most of your points, nothing wrong with it. I would have to say though that if you are broke, youre not too smart. Unless you live in a parallel world where they still barter.

I think whenever you are the visible minority in any sport, you are bound to get alot of attention, this goes both ways.

[ufoalf]

Heres my point, had these 90 black athletes chose MMA as well instead of Football, would MMA be better of be worse off??

I dont care if ALL of the black athletes went into MMA, MMA still wouldn't have better "quality" of athletes. It would have MORE good athletes.

If you wanna get into studies, there are plenty of studies to suggest many things about races and we can go back and forth which is more important for certain sports.

As for "If you're not rich you're not so smart" bullshit. Here's a fun fact for you, one of the smartest man(2nd highest IQ i think) on earth is a bouncer. Now how about that shit. (Man, it must suck living in the world where you perceive everyone as pretty much clinically retarded...)

[chimba]

I dont care if ALL of the black athletes went into MMA, MMA still wouldn't have better "quality" of athletes. It would have MORE good athletes.

If you wanna get into studies, there are plenty of studies to suggest many things about races and we can go back and forth which is more important for certain sports.

As for "If you're not rich you're not so smart" bullshit. Here's a fun fact for you, one of the smartest man(2nd highest IQ i think) on earth is a bouncer. Now how about that shit. (Man, it must suck living in the world where you perceive everyone as pretty much clinically retarded...)

Sure quality will get better. Better talent brings upon competition and better competition breeds better fighters.

Thats not what I said, I said people who are broke are not smart. No you dont have to be rich. Just dont be perpetually broke and claim you are one smart individual. Now if you are a mensa but have mental problems, Id understand if youre broke

[ufoalf]

Sure quality will get better. Better talent brings upon competition and better competition breeds better fighters.

Thats not what I said, I said people who are broke are not smart. No you dont have to be rich. Just dont be perpetually broke and claim you are one smart individual. Now if you are a mensa but have mental problems, Id understand if youre broke


Athletes does not equal fighters. Try again.

[Polymath]

Athletes does not equal fighters. Try again.

I wouldn't even agree with that. Its much more simple than that (and God Chimba and company are simple people, its not a surprise they don't understand.)

The fact is being 'an athlete' is not a generalized thing; the athleticism needed to be a basketball player or a wrestler are completely different. Its really really simple.

[chimba]

Athletes does not equal fighters. Try again.

Better athlete + Great work ethic + Smarts + Desire

>>> Fighter than

Average athlete + Great Work ethic + Smarts + Desire

[ufoalf]

Better athlete + Great work ethic + Smarts + Desire

>>> Fighter than

Average athlete + Great Work ethic + Smarts + Desire

:lol::patsch

Back to same old story, what makes Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, etc world champions average athletes?

Bunch of geniuses in other forum were saying it's the speed, agility etc, and they set a criteria such as running speed and juking... :lol:. I guess NFL are the best Athletes in the world because thats ALL they do...

[chimba]

:lol::patsch

Back to same old story, what makes Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, etc world champions average athletes?

You can be a Judo and BJJ champ without so much relying on athleticsm but technique and leverage. You know Helio Gracie and his sons right? No one will tell you that Helio is a great athlete because the man himself said he is not. He said he was a weakling and sickly, remember that?

This is why wrestlers who are a different level athletically are the dominant discipline in MMA, they take the fights where they want it even w/o any other skills. Coleman, Kerr, Frye, early Couture.

This is why GSP (who is more athletic than BJ and other WW) is so dominant. When one watches GSP and this is now very "real world", one cant help but notice that this guy is much faster and stronger than most of his opponents. He is an example of a better athlete, like Rogan says 200 times everytime GSP fight. "GSP is possibly the best athlete ever in the history of MMA". Now Rogan is saying that not only to praise GSP but to imply that this is a big advantage that GSP possessed.

Rogan is not saying GSP the best athlete and say thats why he will lose:lol:, he is saying GSP is a great athlete thats why hes very hard to beat!

[ufoalf]

Ok, so what does make wrestlers less athletic than NFL players again?

[chimba]

Ok, so what does make wrestlers less athletic than NFL players again?


Who said that? :lol:. I sure didnt. All I said was if NFL players who are predominantly blacks had focused on MMA or for arguments sake wrestling, then they definitely would have made a big impact on MMA had they made the transition. MMA would have more GSPs, Randy, Hendo, Rashads...more athletic fighters.

[ufoalf]

Who said that? :lol:. I sure didnt. All I said was if NFL players who are predominantly blacks had focused on MMA or for arguments sake wrestling, then they definitely would have made a big impact on MMA had they made the transition. MMA would have more GSPs, Randy, Hendo, Rashads...more athletic fighters.


The argument started after BewareofDawg said that NFL players are light years ahead of MMA fighters in terms of athleticism.
Then I think it was you who came back with "imagine such and such NFL player, it would be DAAAMN!!" meaning those individuals would dominate? :lol:

NFL players are not better athletes than MMA fighters.
African Americans are not better athletes than other races.

End of discussion.

[chimba]

The argument started after BewareofDawg said that NFL players are light years ahead of MMA fighters in terms of athleticism.
Then I think it was you who came back with "imagine such and such NFL player, it would be DAAAMN!!" meaning those individuals would dominate? :lol:

NFL players are not better athletes than MMA fighters.
African Americans are not better athletes than other races.

End of discussion.

Yes NFL players in aggregate are better athletes than MMA fighters. We had this poll and people agreed, if we end the discussion then more people think the way I do about the subject.

African Americans are great athletes, whether better than other races, its been studied, I dont give a rats ass whats the conclusion. My point is this had these african americans who chose other sports chose MMA, MMA would be much better in quality. The qualities needed to play football, fast twitch muscle fibers (speed/power combo) is very condusive to MMA, as the wrestlers and GSP as proven.

[ufoalf]

Yes NFL player in aggregate are better athletes than MMA fighters. We had this poll and people agreed, if we end the discussion then more people think the way I do about the subject.

No one could objectively put a decent criteria on how NFL players are better athletes. You just said it yourself wrestlers are just as good of athletes. Everyone tried sticking in running and juking and other crap in there. Doesn't work like that.

[chimba]

No one could objectively put a decent criteria on how NFL players are better athletes. You just said it yourself wrestlers are just as good of athletes. Everyone tried sticking in running and juking and other crap in there. Doesn't work like that.

Its the similar attributes. The speed, explosion, power combo that makes it an advantage. I never onced said NFL players are better than Wrestlers, If you read all my posts, Im biased towards wrestlers, I may not like their style coz most are boring as fucks but, you have to look at things objectively. Also Ive always clarified it as "If they trained MMA" not saying that they fight now in their offseason.

[ufoalf]

Its the similar attributes. The speed, explosion, power combo that makes it an advantage..

All those attributes are used too different to judge fairly. Same way you can't compare a runner to a swimmer. There's nothing you can say, do, twist, or turn to make a fair argument to rate athleticism on those.

[chimba]

All those attributes are used too different to judge fairly. Same way you can't compare a runner to a swimmer. There's nothing you can say, do, twist, or turn to make a fair argument to rate athleticism on those.


:lol:Swimmers, runners, rugby, hockey.. If the pros of these sports had trained MMA instead, theyd be more athletic than half the guys in MMA now. They are all athletic in different ways:lol: Theyre all more athletic than Gabe Rudiguer

[ufoalf]

:lol:Swimmers, runners, rugby, hockey.. If the pros of these sports had trained MMA instead, theyd be more athletic than half the guys in MMA now. They are all athletic in different ways:lol: Theyre all more athletic than Gabe Rudiguer
Oh... my... fucking... god. You are so obtuse its not even funny.

For like 20th time now, how are BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and now MMA champions are less athletic? HOW DO YOU RATE IT? What makes the athletic abilities of BJJ practitioners less athletic? WHAT MAKES IT LESS ATHLETIC? Can you answer the question or no? What exactly makes them less athletic? How practicing years upon years an art that 100% requires physical agility, strength, speed, etc etc, less athletic?

What makes them LESS athletic?

P.S. WHAT EXACTLY makes them less athletic?

[Utter1]

Oh... my... fucking... god. You are so obtuse its not even funny.

For like 20th time now, how are BJJ, Judo, Wrestling and now MMA champions are less athletic? HOW DO YOU RATE IT? What makes the athletic abilities of BJJ practitioners less athletic? WHAT MAKES IT LESS ATHLETIC? Can you answer the question or no? What exactly makes them less athletic? How practicing years upon years an art that 100% requires physical agility, strength, speed, etc etc, less athletic?

What makes them LESS athletic?

P.S. WHAT EXACTLY makes them less athletic?


Its like explaining to a cat how to work a computer (never gonna happen)..........its futile at best..........dont worry let the man write more and more and his own narrow minded, biased views which generate his conlusions come to fruitation in the light of logic.

In the end let him hang himself rather keep debating him.