Could the trainers of the past learn from today's men?

[fists of fury]

Could the likes of Ray Arcel, 'Chappie' Blackburn, Eddie Futch and Charlie Goldman learn from today's trainers? Has training evolved at all?
Has training actually regressed?

Opinions welcome.

[Senya13]

They could learn more of combination punching.

[Sizzle]

Yes, but not really.

The way I look at it, a boxer is fundamentally "built" the same way, always has been - Shadowboxing, roadwork, heavy bag, sparring etc etc.

How a boxer applies these methods and develops as a result of them is down to the individual boxer. Advanced plyometric drills won't make the boxer - Weight-lifting won't make the boxer. These may improve the boxer slightly, but this can't be the foundation of their training.

I think if boxers are rated in every department on a scale of 1-100 for speed, power, footwork, conditioning etc, then MODERN training enhancements will only account for small improvements, say 3-5 points.

In other words comparing the conditioning of heavyweights, Marciano may be something like a 90 - Lennox Lewis may have been a 60 back in Marciano's era, but with the aid of modern training has added perhaps an extra "5" to his conditioning. But he's still nowhere near as well conditioned as Rocky.

This is my logic.

Therefore I would say they COULD learn something, but not nearly as much as they could TEACH

[fists of fury]

Thanks for the replies, but Magoo has a similar thread going and in the interests of fairness (he started his first) maybe the mods can remove this thread?

[tommy the hat]

As far as techniques and skills, no. The boxers of yesteryear were much better at learning their trade, one big reason being they had better teachers. But I feel the old time trainers could benefit from today's modern nutrition and supplements incorporated with their old school teaching of the sweet science.

[burt bienstock]

Yes, but not really.

The way I look at it, a boxer is fundamentally "built" the same way, always has been - Shadowboxing, roadwork, heavy bag, sparring etc etc.

How a boxer applies these methods and develops as a result of them is down to the individual boxer. Advanced plyometric drills won't make the boxer - Weight-lifting won't make the boxer. These may improve the boxer slightly, but this can't be the foundation of their training.

I think if boxers are rated in every department on a scale of 1-100 for speed, power, footwork, conditioning etc, then MODERN training enhancements will only account for small improvements, say 3-5 points.

In other words comparing the conditioning of heavyweights, Marciano may be something like a 90 - Lennox Lewis may have been a 60 back in Marciano's era, but with the aid of modern training has added perhaps an extra "5" to his conditioning. But he's still nowhere near as well conditioned as Rocky.

This is my logic.

Therefore I would say they COULD learn something, but not nearly as much as they could TEACH
Very good analysis....
i believe there is nothing substantial what todays trainers could teach yesterdays FULL time trainers, except this vital tip..
How to make 5 times the dough today, by fighting 5 times less than the fighters of the past...
The old adage says "practice makes perfect",and the oldtimers fought numerous times more ,with full time teachers, and honed far better skills.
Another thing...The oldtimers fought 15 to 45 rounds, sans mouthpieces, almost every other week,without supplements etc...Wow, imagine if they used modern nutritional methods of today, they would still be fighting...
It's experience , by fighting often, against a greater pool of competition that makes one era better than another...Witness the two Golden Ages of boxing.....

[john garfield]

Could the likes of Ray Arcel, 'Chappie' Blackburn, Eddie Futch and Charlie Goldman learn from today's trainers? Has training evolved at all?
Has training actually regressed?

Opinions welcome.

Since the Golden Age, fof, CONDITIONING's become Space Age, but TRAINING (actual BOXING SAVVY) has regressed. Fewer 'n fewer Yodas 'n more 'n more clowns.

[thistle1]

Fewer 'n fewer Yodas 'n more 'n more clowns.


Fantastic!

[lefthook31]

I think all sports evolve and change and things can always be improved.

[john garfield]

I think all sports evolve and change and things can always be improved.

How's the teaching of boxing -- not conditioning -- improved? l

[lefthook31]

How's the teaching of boxing -- not conditioning -- improved? l
People are different now, so the approach has to be different. The mental preparation has to be approached differently especially when dealing with a professional fighter.
As far as the basic mechanics and motions of boxing, we've seen equipment and techniques change. You didnt see Eddie Futch holding pads, and now you have Nazim Richardson swinging towels and silly sticks at fighters to help with their reflexes and timing.:D

[mattdonnellon]

For conditioning and supplements, read drugs.

[amhlilhaus]

I still don't believe the modern nutrition BULLSHIT being perpetuated. the science might be 'correct' according to certain paramaters, but I don't see two superbly trained nutrionists athletes throwing 200 punches a round for 12 rounds, which if they were in such great shape they should be able to do.

as for skills being better- only one word suffices GTFO

[john garfield]

People are different now, so the approach has to be different. The mental preparation has to be approached differently especially when dealing with a professional fighter.
As far as the basic mechanics and motions of boxing, we've seen equipment and techniques change. You didnt see Eddie Futch holding pads, and now you have Nazim Richardson swinging towels and silly sticks at fighters to help with their reflexes and timing.:D

See how it's changed, l, but missing how it's improved?

[round15]

The trainers of today could certainly benefit from the knowledge of the old time trainers. Not the other way around. Old time trainers would make proper use of the latest technology rather than taking it for granted like some do.

With respect to Freddie Roach, Teddy Atlas, Kenny Adams, Tommy Brooks, and Manny Steward as one of the seniorist of the present trainers, I don't think there's anything that Blackburn, Goldman, Ray Arcel, Freddie Brown and Whitey Bimstein don't already know. Sure, they come from the old school of boxing thought, but technology IMO has made the sport lazy and the sport has relied too much on that. A lot of these coddled and protected fighters have a plethra of modern equipment and enough voices to tell them how to execute in the ring. Problem with that is, the guys teaching them how to execute, don't know what is right from wrong. I'm not dissing the trainers of today, but it seems that skills such as feinting, parrying, fundamental combinations and good footwork are sadly lacking skills. Fighters of today choose to watch too much video to find answers rather than watching or participating in a proper sparring session with a hard nosed trainer that won't take any BS. I see lots of hot shot stuff coming from trainers when the cameras are on, especially before a fight in terms of working the pads with their fighter. Maybe it's just me, but this is what I find is lacking in the sport now.

[lefthook31]

See how it's changed, l, but missing how it's improved?
It obviously still takes the right mind to implement the changes and improve but maybe the old timers could get more done with a fighter with some of the changes of today?
For example could Eddie Futch have faired better with Riddick Bowe if he had Alex Ariza as his chief second and not Thell Torrance? Could Futch have gotten more time out of Bowe if he had an assitant that was a nutritionist/conditioning coach, and not just an apprentice/spit bucket holder during camps? I mean how long does it take a trainer to show an assitant how to prepare the corner between rounds of a fight, about four minutes?
I also think because the sport has changed and fighters dont fight as often, trainers should put more pressure on their fighters to stay in shape year round with the assistance of a nutritionist or conditioning coach. This is somthing the old timers wouldnt be used to experiencing because fighters fought more often in the past.

[janitor]

I think that the old time trainers were better than the trainers of today.

I think that much more strongly than I think that the old time fighters were better than the fighters of today.

We might just be seing the slow death of the legendary fighters because there are no more great trainers.

[burt bienstock]

I think that the old time trainers were better than the trainers of today.

I think that much more strongly than I think that the old time fighters were better than the fighters of today.

We might just be seing the slow death of the legendary fighters because there are no more great trainers.
I agree...Fighters fought so often in the golden age of boxing, had so many styles to contend with,schooled by great fulltime trainers, that the great survivors who reached the top, had what was then called "bottom".
That was the ability to carry on in a crisis, because they were forged through numerous tough fights , to dig deep and survive no matter what...
An example would be why Roy Jones went downhill after 50 or so bouts,
being kod a few times while a Ray Robinson had over 200 bouts,and while way over his prime , this "bottom" allowed Ray to always last the distance....It was ingrained in Robinson...

[janitor]

I agree...Fighters fought so often in the golden age of boxing, had so many styles to contend with,schooled by great fulltime trainers, that the great survivors who reached the top, had what was then called "bottom".
That was the ability to carry on in a crisis, because they were forged through numerous tough fights , to dig deep and survive no matter what...
An example would be why Roy Jones went downhill after 50 or so bouts,
being kod a few times while a Ray Robinson had over 200 bouts,and while way over his prime , this "bottom" allowed Ray to always last the distance....It was ingrained in Robinson...

I also think that once a fighter starts giving orders to his trainer he is heading for a beating.

The relationship between fighter and trainer has perhaps changed somewhat over the years.

Better if a fighter is willing to be a slave to his trainer.

[mrbassie]

I would say no. What modern fighters have over the older generations are ancillary things-nutrition is one thing that's always mentioned, weight management and so on but these are usually aspects which come from people who are brought in...I certainly don't think insert-modern-pressure-fighters-name-here's trainer could do a better job than Yank Durham did with Frazier, I don't think Roach is as good a trainer as Futch. I honestly believe that from the 30's to the sixties boxing enjoyed it's golden age; boxing knowledge has gone backward imo...overall.

[sugarsean]

I think that the old time trainers were better than the trainers of today.

I think that much more strongly than I think that the old time fighters were better than the fighters of today.

We might just be seing the slow death of the legendary fighters because there are no more great trainers.

I agree with this

[GPater11093]

I do think great trainers are getting fewer, however Freddie Roach is a great trainer as is Naazim Richardson.

I think people are forgetting boxing is not athletics it is fighting, these modern improvements might make the guys better athletes but that does not make you a better fighter.

[Jorodz]

I do think great trainers are getting fewer, however Freddie Roach is a great trainer as is Naazim Richardson.

I think people are forgetting boxing is not athletics it is fighting, these modern improvements might make the guys better athletes but that does not make you a better fighter.

good point and it could be the missing piece to why so many fighters from the past are superior to fighters today.

it wouldn't make sense that magically by being older or from a different era they're better but along with the fighters, the trainers have changed and this obviously makes a world of difference

[GPater11093]

One thing I think trainers are forgetting is the basics, there too hung up on making their fighters more advanced and learning new stuff, a prime example would be Floyd Mayweather Sr 'improving' Ricky Hatton.

Look at what Roach did with Amir Khan, he sorted out the fundamentals and look at Khan now.

[PowerPuncher]

There are less trainers who really know how to teach the technical side of the sport today, but there are some, not all of them the famous few, if you know boxing techniques through and through and you know how teach you can be a trainer as good as any.

[PowerPuncher]

One thing I think trainers are forgetting is the basics, there too hung up on making their fighters more advanced and learning new stuff, a prime example would be Floyd Mayweather Sr 'improving' Ricky Hatton.

Look at what Roach did with Amir Khan, he sorted out the fundamentals and look at Khan now.

You can't teach an old dogs new tricks, Ricky Hatton kept rushing in with his hands down, I'm pretty sure Sr didnt teach him that. Senor made the mistake of trying to get Ricky to box, it was never going to work, Ricky needed to maul, wrestle and pressure. Then again Pacquaio would always be a nightmare style for him

British boxing, in terms of technique has fallen a long way. Look at the likes of Buchanan, Conteh - you just don't get technical types like that now. Although Frankie Gavin has some silky silky skills

The guys who teach the kid iniatially are the underrated 1s who never get any credit, the guys like Roach/Steward often get allot of credit for polishing up some gold

[Bummy Davis]

It has regressed and this is evident in all the divisions but the question is still lingering with heavyweights where there is no weight limit. Weight and ways of weight and muscle gain have been a big thing but the rounds have been shortened and the 2 best Heavyweights Lennox Lewis for one never stopped a man after the 8th rd and never got off the floor to win

Mike Tyson once TKO'd a man past the 8th man Jose RIbalta and Mike was another man who never got off the floor to win

Could it be the muscle gain that has a short window of opportunity?
Would 15 rd fights make it necessary for these guys to get into better-less-weight-condition?

A lot of times it is conditioning that allows a fighter to get off the floor to come back and win or to KO a man late in a fight. Like the great Vince Lombardi said " fatigue can make a coward of us all"

[1_man_army]

I think the only thing that could be improved on with the older trainers is the physical training side of things. Obviously, we know a lot more about the human body nowadays and people know a lot more about nutrition and creating an athlete. Boxers may be getting better athletically but there has been little change to the technique of boxing and the things needed to help with that. A lot of those old-time trainers have forgetten more about boxing than a lot of guys will ever hope to know.

So the old timers would need to learn from the modern conditioners not modern boxing trainers.

[john garfield]

Don't have time now, but would like to come back 'n talk about this in detail.