Great Pro's Even Better Amateur's

[young griffo]

We all know of great amateurs who for whatever reason couldn't translate their success to the pro's (Breland,Gonzalez,Reid etc),or guys with limited amateur careers who were great champions but what great pro's were even better amateur's?

An obvious example that springs to mind is Kostya Tszyu who whilst imo a great pro fighter he was an awesome amateur with a record of something like 270-12.

My knowledge of amateur boxing is very limited so any other examples you could give would be appreciated.

[ozziebattler]

You hit the nail on the head with tszyu..Probably regarded as one of the greatest amateur boxers ever.Even without a olympic gold medal..

I would probably say lennox lewis...

He won world amateur title,olympic gold and commonwealth gold medals as amateur.

Hard to beat that resume..And its hard for me to say that as im not a lewis fan..

[young griffo]

You hit the nail on the head with tszyu..Probably regarded as one of the greatest amateur boxers ever.Even without a olympic gold medal..

I would probably say lennox lewis...

He won world amateur title,olympic gold and commonwealth gold medals as amateur.

Hard to beat that resume..And its hard for me to say that as im not a lewis fan..
That's a very good example mate.
With all that Lewis did in the pro's you tend to overlook his amateur credentials (the Bowe Olympic win excepted) which were fantastic.

[TBooze]

Ray Robinson 85-0 (69 KO's; 40 in the first round)

[young griffo]

Ray Robinson 85-0 (69 KO's; 40 in the first round)
That's an amazing record but I'd have thought Ray was still even better as a pro.After all he had a record of 130-1 as a professional as well at one point and that 1 was a loss he avenged multiple time versus La Motta.

[TBooze]

That's an amazing record but I'd have thought Ray was still even better as a pro.After all he had a record of 130-1 as a professional as well at one point and that 1 was a loss he avenged multiple time versus La Motta.

He is as close as anyone IMO. No great pro ever had an even better amateur career period.

[Senya13]

Harry Simon 271-2
Juan Carlos Gomez 158-2

[young griffo]

Harry Simon 271-2
Juan Carlos Gomez 158-2
Did these two achieve much at international level as amateurs?

I only ask because you see some guys with brilliant amateur records which are dubious in the extreme.For example 90's Heavyweight plodder Courage Tshabala (?) when he was an up and comer boasted of a 70-1 amateur record with 70 first round KO's yet was as clumsy and unskilled a fighter as you'd see and must have amassed his record against drunks and hobo's.

[ozziebattler]

He is as close as anyone IMO. No great pro ever had an even better amateur career period.

Lennox Lewis comes close..

OLYMPIC GOLD

COMMONWEALTH GAMES GOLD

EUROPEAN GOLD

BRITISH CHAMP

WORLD AMATEUR CHAMPIONSHIP WINNER TWICE.

[Sweet Science]

De La Hoya had a better run as an amateur than he did as a professional.

His record was an amazing 223-5 (163 KO's)

I believe Oscar is the best candidate for this thread.

[Titan1]

Ray Leonard
Muhammad Ali

[Sweet Science]

Ray Leonard
Muhammad Ali

I disagree.

I think Ali and Leonard both definitely had better Pro careers than amateur careers.

De La Hoya fits the bill better.

[Luigi1985]

Nino Benvenuti is also a good choice.

[ozziebattler]

We are talking great pros...

[Luigi1985]

We are talking great pros...


Isn´t a HOF great?

[Luigi1985]

Btw, when the thread creator came with examples like Reid, Gonzalez, etc. than Nino is surely great, you dumbass...

[young griffo]

Btw, when the thread creator came with examples like Reid, Gonzalez, etc. than Nino is surely great, you dumbass...
A two time undisputed champ like Benvenuti is definately a great and a good call for this thread.:good

[Luigi1985]

A two time undisputed champ like Benvenuti is definately a great and a good call for this thread.:good


Exactly! I don´t know, that´s why I asked this joke poster if a HOF isn´t great than who? :thumbsup

[Duodenum]

I don't know that Mark Breland could be classified as a "great" pro, but he was a very competent one who became a two time WBA WW Champion, with four successful title defenses by knockout. Of course as an amateur, he was 110-1, and attained all the championship honors available for him to win. In his eleventh bout for pay, he avenged that only amateur loss with a televised third round TKO of Darryl Anthony. He seemed to be generally considered a professional disappointment when measured up against the amateur standard he set, but the only blemishes on his record came against fellow title claimants, and he did conclude his boxing career with a five match winning streak.

[Sam Dixon]

Ray Robinson 85-0 (69 KO's; 40 in the first round)

Robinson was found to have at least one amatuer loss, my friend, and it happened during the 1938 New York Golden Gloves at the St, Nicholas Arena, with the date listed as being Feb 16th of that year, and it was decision loss to an opponent named Pasquale Pesca while the two were fighting in the 118 pound junior division.

That was according to the research conducted by former IBRO director, John Grasso.

[ozziebattler]

Exactly! I don´t know, that´s why I asked this joke poster if a HOF isn´t great than who? :thumbsup

Sorry meant great amateur.Benvenuta(sorry bout spelling)acheived more as a pro i feel.

Hence the topic being great pro's who were BETTER amateurs..

[Luigi1985]

Sorry meant great amateur.Benvenuta(sorry bout spelling)acheived more as a pro i feel.

Hence the topic being great pro's who were BETTER amateurs..


No problem. :good

But Benvenuti was also a great amateur at Welterweight, he won the gold medal in 1960 and had an outstanding amateur record of 119-1...

[ron u.k.]

not great as a pro but unbeaten and european champion lazlo papp,3 times olympic champion.

[TBooze]

Robinson was found to have at least one amatuer loss, my friend, and it happened during the 1938 New York Golden Gloves at the St, Nicholas Arena, with the date listed as being Feb 16th of that year, and it was decision loss to an opponent named Pasquale Pesca while the two were fighting in the 118 pound junior division.

That was according to the research conducted by former IBRO director, John Grasso.

That may very well be true, but there needs to be documented evidence that is available to all, I presume the research was done for a book?

If it was I would be intrested in purchasing it.

[Sam Dixon]

That may very well be true, but there needs to be documented evidence that is available to all, I presume the research was done for a book?

If it was I would be intrested in purchasing it.

Well it has been documented and it has been made available to all, my friend, as has the rest of Robinson's Golden Gloves career;

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Lex]

I don't even hafta stray far from home (Fort Worth, Texas):

Bruce Curry and Ronnie Shields (from Beaumont) were excellent amateur light welterweights who had the misfortune of boxing in the Sugar Ray Leonard era and weight class. I got to see Curry and Shields box each other in the amateurs a couplafew times - that's as good as boxing gets. Great stuff.

Both went on to successful pro careers, tho' only Bruce won a world title. But Ronnie has turned into a terrific trainer.

Bubba Busceme, another top notch amateur from Texas who didn't quite set the pros on fire.

And, arguably, George Foreman, tho' it's difficult to say whether he was more successful as an amateur (considering his very limited experience) or pro, relatively speaking.

[TBooze]

Well it has been documented and it has been made available to all, my friend, as has the rest of Robinson's Golden Gloves career;

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Intresting, but where is the evidence?

[Senya13]

Mike DeLisa also listed another loss for Robinson in 1938, in his version of the record, to Arvey Lacelle:

Amateur Highlights
1938
--- Arvey Lacelle New York L 3
--- Willie Pep New York W 3
118-lb. Sub-Novice, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Jan 29 Thomas Polizzi New York, NY KO 2
Feb 4 Bobby Ruffin New York, NY W 3
Feb 16 Pasquale Pesca Queens, NY L 3

1939
126-lb. Open, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Feb 13 Alfredo Guido New York, NY W 3
Feb 22 Frank Arcidiacono New York, NY W 3
Mar 6 Louis Valentine New York KO 3

126-lb. Open, GG Eastern Regionals
Mar 13 Armann Dascenza New York, NY KO 1
Mar 13 Edward Dowell New York, NY W 3
Mar 14 Bob Fisher New York, NY KO 1
Mar 14 Mario Centi New York, NY W 3

126-lb. Open, Chicago-NY Inter-City
Mar 29 Tony Ancona Chicago, IL W 3


1940
135-lb. Open, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Jan 25 Woodrow Tolliver New York, NY KO 2
Feb 2 Michael Solicito New York, NY KO 2
Feb 7 William Wolfe Ridgewood, NY KO 1
Feb 14 Ballesandro Carubia Bronx, NY KO 3
Feb 19 Andrew Nonella New York, NY KO 1

135-lb. Open, GG Eastern Regionals
Mar 4 Joe Vidulich Bronx, NY KO 1
Mar 5 Howard Hettrich Bronx, NY KO 1
Mar 6 Steve Kukol New York, NY W 3
Mar 6 Jimmy Butler New York, NY KO 1

135-lb. Open, Chicago-NY Inter-City
Mar 18 Tony Ancona New York, NY KO 3
Apr Smoke Robinson Rochester, NY W 5
Jul Tommy Moyer Rochester, NY W 5



One article also mentioned that Robinson lost to Billy Graham in the amateurs.

[Bummy Davis]

aloy of guys stayed to long in the amatuers, over 200 fights sometimes makes it hard to convert to the Pros

[My dinner with Conteh]

Intresting, but where is the evidence?


You're wrong. Accept it.

[TBooze]

You're wrong. Accept it.

I hope I am; if there is a newspaper clipping or similar document floating around showing an amateur defeat for Walker Smith's Ray Robinson then it would be an excellent find and important for boxing historians.

[ThinBlack]

Michael Dokes and Donald Curry.