Top 200 list [bona fide]

[trampie]

Definition of Bona Fide is 'in good faith, genuine'.

1] Sugar Ray Robinson
2] Armstrong
3] Langford
4] Greb
5] Duran
6] B.Leonard
7] Wilde
8] Ali
9] Louis
10] Pep
11] Charles
12] Fitzsimmons
13] Gans
14] R.Leonard
15] Hagler
16] Walker
17] Moore
18] Jofre
19] Tunney
20] Jack Johnson
21] Monzon
22] Whitaker
23] B.Ross
24] Saddler
25] Canzoneri
26] Salvador Sanchez
27] Babadoes Joe Walcott
28] Ketchel
29] I.Williams
30] Burley
31] Marciano
32] Jack Dempsey
33] Roy Jones Jnr
34] Holmes
35] Dixon
36] Cesar Charvez
37] E.Griffith
38] Arguello
39] Holyfield
40] Kid Gavilan
41] Hearns
42] Napoles
43] Freddie Welsh
44] Driscoll
45] C.Ortiz
46] L.Lewis
47] Harada
48] Mayweather Jnr
49] Calzaghe
50] Britton
51] Olivares
52] M.Spinks
53] Hopkins
54] Wills
55] W.Gomez
56] foster
57] Villa
58] Loughran
59] LM Rodriquez
60] Al Brown
61] M.Ortiz
62] Dick Tiger
63] Conn
64] Attell
65] Perez
66] Canto
67] McGovern
68] Ted Kid Lewis
69] Kid Chocolate
70] Joe Brown
71] Tiger Flower
72] Cerdan
73] Jeffries
74] Pryer
75] Basilio
76] McLarnin
77] T.Ryan
78] Beau Jack
79] Angott
80] Trinidad
81] McCallum
82] W.Benitez
83] De La Hoya
84] Graham
85] Gibbons
86] Kilbane
87] Blackburn
88] Ambers
89] Tyson
90] H.Williams
91] Liston
92] Herman
93] Philly Jack O'Brien
94] Loi
95] Cervantes
96] Zarate
97] Giardello
98] McFarland
99] Buchanan
100]Elorde
101]Montgomery
102]Barrera
103]Dundee
104]Zale
105]Vicente Salvador
106]LaBarba
107]Kid Williams
108]Genero
109]Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
110]Battling Nelson
111]Rosenbloom
112]La Motta
113]Foreman
114]Frazier
115]Wolgast
116]R.Lopez
117]Carpentier
118]Locche
119]Pacquiao
120]Kane
121]Jersey Joe Walcott
122]Dillon
123]Marshall
124]Graziano
125]Delaney
126]Camacho
127]Sharkey
128]J.Lynch
129]Kingpetch
130]Barry
131]B.Lynch
132]Benvenuti
133]Baer
134]Jeanette
135]Tendler
136]Buff
137]Coulon
138]Chandler
139]Holly
140]DeJesus
141]P.Jackson
142]Winky Wright
143]Mosley
144]Morales
145]Blackburn
146]Griffo
147]Kid Berg
148]H.Johnson
149]Galaxy
150]Mandell
151]Escobar
152]Freddie Steele
153]Azumah Nelson
154]Bud Taylor
155]Accavallo
156]Young Corbett 111
157]Booker
158]Bivins
159]Moran
160]Ohba
161]H.Gonzalez
162]Toney
163]James J Corbett
164]Patterson
165]Kid McCoy
166]Gushiken
167]Freddie Miller
168]Carbajal
169]F.Burns
170]Winstone
171]Levinsky
172]Fullmer
173]McAuliffe
174]E.Pedrozsa
175]Pintor
176]Coulon
177]Pal Moore
178]Becerra
179]Jung Koo Chang
180]Fenech
181]Honeyghan
182]McGuigan
183]Qawi
184]John Henry Lewis
185]Hamed
186]Collins
187]Saad Muhammed
188]Perkins
189]Schmeling
190]Turpin
191]Michalczewski
192]Nunn
193]Virgil Hill
194]John L Sullivan
195]Ritchie
196]Kilbane
197]Lew Jenkins
198]Eubank
199]Benn
200]Norris

[trampie]

Taken from the above list, Joe Calzaghe {retired today} would only be the 4th ranked Welshman behind Wilde,Welsh and Driscoll.

[trampie]

Taken from the above list Pacquiao would only be ranked as the 3rd best boxer from the Philipines behind Pancho Villa and Flash Elorde.{although Pacman is sill active}

[trampie]

Taken from the above list, the top 12 heavyweights would be -
1] Ali
2] Louis
3] Jack Johnson
4] Marciano
5] Jack Demsey
6] Holmes
7] Lewis
8] Jeffries
9] Tyson
10] Liston
11] Foreman
12] Frazier

[TommyV]

Is this yours or copied from another site?

[DINAMITA]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]




I'm not being funny, but you say this list you have posted is 'genuine, in good faith'. But you had William Joppy at 143 on your last list, and that inclusion came under heavy fire from many posters, so now you have omitted him completely. What has Joppy done since then to merit being dropped a minimum of 58 places, if this list is genuine and in good faith??

[DINAMITA]

IMO...

TOO HIGH

TOO LOW



Definition of Bona Fide is 'in good faith, genuine'.

1] Sugar Ray Robinson
2] Armstrong
3] Langford
4] Greb
5] Duran
6] B.Leonard
7] Wilde
8] Ali
9] Louis
10] Pep
11] Charles
12] Fitzsimmons
13] Gans
14] R.Leonard
15] Hagler
16] Walker
17] Moore
18] Jofre
19] Tunney
20] Jack Johnson
21] Monzon
22] Whitaker
23] B.Ross
24] Saddler
25] Canzoneri
26] Salvador Sanchez
27] Babadoes Joe Walcott
28] Ketchel
29] I.Williams
30] Burley
31] Marciano
32] Jack Dempsey
33] Roy Jones Jnr
34] Holmes
35] Dixon
36] Cesar Charvez
37] E.Griffith
38] Arguello
39] Holyfield
40] Kid Gavilan
41] Hearns
42] Napoles
43] Freddie Welsh
44] Driscoll
45] C.Ortiz
46] L.Lewis
47] Harada
48] Mayweather Jnr
49] Calzaghe
50] Britton
51] Olivares
52] M.Spinks
53] Hopkins
54] Wills
55] W.Gomez
56] foster
57] Villa
58] Loughran
59] LM Rodriquez
60] Al Brown
61] M.Ortiz
62] Dick Tiger
63] Conn
64] Attell
65] Perez
66] Canto
67] McGovern
68] Ted Kid Lewis
69] Kid Chocolate
70] Joe Brown
71] Tiger Flower
72] Cerdan
73] Jeffries
74] Pryer
75] Basilio
76] McLarnin
77] T.Ryan
78] Beau Jack
79] Angott
80] Trinidad
81] McCallum
82] W.Benitez
83] De La Hoya
84] Graham
85] Gibbons
86] Kilbane
87] Blackburn
88] Ambers
89] Tyson
90] H.Williams
91] Liston
92] Herman
93] Philly Jack O'Brien
94] Loi
95] Cervantes
96] Zarate
97] Giardello
98] McFarland
99] Buchanan
100]Elorde
101]Montgomery
102]Barrera
103]Dundee
104]Zale
105]Vicente Salvador
106]LaBarba
107]Kid Williams
108]Genero
109]Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
110]Battling Nelson
111]Rosenbloom
112]La Motta
113]Foreman
114]Frazier
115]Wolgast
116]R.Lopez
117]Carpentier
118]Locche
119]Pacquiao
120]Kane
121]Jersey Joe Walcott
122]Dillon
123]Marshall
124]Graziano
125]Delaney
126]Camacho
127]Sharkey
128]J.Lynch
129]Kingpetch
130]Barry
131]B.Lynch
132]Benvenuti
133]Baer
134]Jeanette
135]Tendler
136]Buff
137]Coulon
138]Chandler
139]Holly
140]DeJesus
141]P.Jackson
142]Winky Wright
143]Mosley
144]Morales
145]Blackburn
146]Griffo
147]Kid Berg
148]H.Johnson
149]Galaxy
150]Mandell
151]Escobar
152]Freddie Steele
153]Azumah Nelson
154]Bud Taylor
155]Accavallo
156]Young Corbett 111
157]Booker
158]Bivins
159]Moran
160]Ohba
161]H.Gonzalez
162]Toney
163]James J Corbett
164]Patterson
165]Kid McCoy
166]Gushiken
167]Freddie Miller
168]Carbajal
169]F.Burns
170]Winstone
171]Levinsky
172]Fullmer
173]McAuliffe
174]E.Pedrozsa
175]Pintor
176]Coulon
177]Pal Moore
178]Becerra
179]Jung Koo Chang
180]Fenech
181]Honeyghan
182]McGuigan
183]Qawi
184]John Henry Lewis
185]Hamed
186]Collins
187]Saad Muhammed
188]Perkins
189]Schmeling
190]Turpin
191]Michalczewski
192]Nunn
193]Virgil Hill
194]John L Sullivan
195]Ritchie
196]Kilbane
197]Lew Jenkins
198]Eubank
199]Benn
200]Norris


Great effort mate, seriously.

Just some things I don't get though:


- Jimmy Wilde 5 places above Ezzard Charles, Charles not in the top 10?? Check their resumes, that cannot be justified.


- :yikes Marvin Hagler above Mickey Walker and Archie Moore?!!


- Barney Ross only at #23 and Jack Dempsey the heavyweight up at #32!!!! :nono


- Larry Holmes above Emile Griffith and Alexis Arguello?


- You may think that Joe Calzaghe deserves to be above Manny Pacquiao, but can you seriously justify him being SEVENTY PLACES higher?? :admin
I would be interested to hear that, as I think it's an absolutely ludicrous disparity between the current world p4p number 1 and number 3.


- Why the hell is Barrera FORTY-TWO PLACES above Morales?? How can that be justified?





Great effort again, but really not sure about the quality of this one either Tramps.

[China_hand_Joe]

Pacquiao is just placed to low, thats only a result of historical bias though.

[DINAMITA]

Historical bias didn't seem to affect Jones, Chavez, Holyfield, Lewis, Calzaghe, Mayweather.....

[trampie]

IMO...

TOO HIGH

TOO LOW






Great effort mate, seriously.

Just some things I don't get though:


- Jimmy Wilde 5 places above Ezzard Charles, Charles not in the top 10?? Check their resumes, that cannot be justified.


- :yikes Marvin Hagler above Mickey Walker and Archie Moore?!!


- Barney Ross only at #23 and Jack Dempsey the heavyweight up at #32!!!! :nono


- Larry Holmes above Emile Griffith and Alexis Arguello?


- You may think that Joe Calzaghe deserves to be above Manny Pacquiao, but can you seriously justify him being SEVENTY PLACES higher?? :admin
I would be interested to hear that, as I think it's an absolutely ludicrous disparity between the current world p4p number 1 and number 3.


- Why the hell is Barrera FORTY-TWO PLACES above Morales?? How can that be justified?





Great effort again, but really not sure about the quality of this one either Tramps.

Thanks DINAMITA, i am open to change i will look at your concerns and probably change some things as you suggest.
If you see some more dubious selections let me know.

[DINAMITA]

Thanks DINAMITA, i am open to change i will look at your concerns and proberbly change some things as you suggest.
If you see some more dubious selections let me know.

Nah, that was my all mate. Good list in general, just a couple of choices that hit a bum note, but that's to be expected in a full top 200. We can't all agree all the time.



Seriously though, the Joppy thing, what is your reason for ditching ol' Willie a full 57 places? I notice Ricky Hatton has completely disappeared too, and he had been 101st. Have your opinions changed so so radically in the past month or so??

[trampie]

The list i have compiled is not a P4P type list, i dont try to envisage a flyweight fighting a heavyweight, if the flyweight is a better flyweight than the heavyweight is a heavyweight, than i would rank the flyweight higher.

Pacman scores very well P4P as he continues to win moving up the weights, Calzaghe does not score well P4P as he spent virtually his whole career at one weight.
Thats why i don't like P4P, Calzaghe enjoyed a great career, i accept that his resume is not the best but he has beaten everybody put infront of him including some good opposition, Pacman on the other had has lost 3 times and drawn twice already. {i bet he will lose a couple more fights before he is finished as well}

[China_hand_Joe]

Whitaker is the first modern-ish fighter listed, at a rather low 22.

I'd have them all moved up barring Chavez.

[trampie]

The reason i originally had Joppy, Hatton etc was to create debate.
That list was put together after the Hopkins/Calzaghe bout, i could not believe the disrespect towards Calzaghe on this site at that time,particularly from you DINAMITA, so i created a list to show some people on this forum, look this is where Calzaghe stands on an all time list, it had to be a top 200 because at the time, some people were saying he would not make their top 100 {fair enough}, i figured that even the most biased of posters would be hard pressed not to have him in a top 200, that would be enough to make some people stop and think top 200 all time 'he must be good', and give the boxer some overdue respect.
If i had done a bona-fide list {which of course i have now done} it would have ended up with lots of old boxers {and by and large it is dominated by old boxers} that most of the people that i was targeting would not have heard of and i would have had virtually no responce, so i needed a list with the best of the current crop on {Hatton etc}as well as the all time greats to stimulate conversation, interest and debate.

My views have not changed much recently apart from finding out Ross holds a 2-0 over Canzoneri [although both close] and some of the boxers on sweet_scientist's list were better than i realised when i checked them out.

[trampie]

Is this yours or copied from another site?

It is my own work, you will not find many top 200's on the net.

[DINAMITA]

The list i have compiled is not a P4P type list, i dont try to envisage a flyweight fighting a heavyweight, if the flyweight is a better flyweight than the heavyweight is a heavyweight, than i would rank the flyweight higher.

Pacman scores very well P4P as he continues to win moving up the weights, Calzaghe does not score well P4P as he spent virtually his whole career at one weight.
Thats why i don't like P4P, Calzaghe enjoyed a great career, i accept that his resume is not the best but he has beaten everybody put infront of him including some good opposition, Pacman on the other had has lost 3 times and drawn twice already. {i bet he will lose a couple more fights before he is finished as well}

This is insanely illogical. Your reasoning for a SEVENTY-PLACE gap is flimsy to the point of absurdity.

The sole reason you have given for your low ranking of Pacquiao is that he has lost three times and drawn twice in a career of 50+ fight career where he was fought in many divisions, held many titles, and fought HOF boxers many times.

By the very same logic, there is no justification whatsoever for your comparatively very high rankings of Thomas Hearns, Roy Jones Jr and Felix Trinidad.

[DINAMITA]

The reason i originally had Joppy, Hatton etc was to create debate.


I don't understand. Please explain.


How exactly would putting this guy (who is not a very popular or overly well-known boxer)...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


...create debate????

How would placing William Joppy at 143rd in your top 200 ahead of Erik Morales and Azumah Nelson create debate?

What exactly was the debate that you thought would be created by that decision, or what was the debate that you wanted to happen?

Surely if you knew anything about William Joppy's career, accomplishments and abilities, then you would know that placing him as the 143rd best fighter of all-time ahead of guys like Morales and Nelson would not create any debate at all, but would just leave you open to ridicule, your list bereft of any credibility, and your threads awash with jokes at your expense??

Please explain.


after the Hopkins/Calzaghe bout, i could not believe the disrespect towards Calzaghe on this site at that time so i created a list to show some people on this forum, look this is where Calzaghe stands on an all time list


Again, I genuinely do not understand what you are talking about here mate.

- You wanted Calzaghe to get his due after the Hopkins fight.


In order to achieve this, you did NOT...

- Make a thread in the immediate aftermath of the bout calling for people to give Calzaghe his due.

- Make a thread at any point calling for people to give Calzaghe his due.

- Make a thread specifically about the Hopkins v Calzaghe bout.



Instead, what you are claiming you did, is...

- Wait for the best part of a year and then write an entire top 200 list placing Calzaghe at a pretty nondescript and acceptable 86th place...



I don't understand your choice of tactic to gain Calzaghe credit at all. Can you explain this as well?



so i created a list to show some people on this forum, look this is where Calzaghe stands on an all time list

But on that list you have Calzaghe at 86th place, and now on your "real" list you have him top 50?

Why did you make a list with him at number 86 to say to people "Look! This is where Calzaghe stands on an all-time list!", if you really believe he was top 50?

Yet again, this doesn't make any sense at all.


it had to be a top 200 because at the time, some people were saying he would not make their top 100 {fair enough}, i figured that even the most biased of posters would be hard pressed not to have him in a top 200, that would be enough to make some people stop and think top 200 all time 'he must be good', and give the boxer some overdue respect.

This is becoming a common theme here I know, but...

This makes no sense at all either mate.

It had to be a top 200 and not a top 100 to show that Calzaghe merits inclusion in such a list and gain him the credit he wasn't getting, but then you place him within the top 100, at 86th?????

What was the function of the other 100 then, with William Joppy in it?

I mean, was it to create debate or was it to gain Calzaghe credit (somehow) by placing him much lower than you truly believed he deserved or was it something else??????????????



If i had done a bona-fide list {which of course i have now done} it would have ended up with lots of old boxers {and by and large it is dominated by old boxers} that most of the people that i was targeting would not have heard of and i would have had virtually no responce, so i needed a list with the best of the current crop on {Hatton etc}as well as the all time greats to stimulate conversation, interest and debate.

My views have not changed much recently apart from finding out Ross holds a 2-0 over Canzoneri [although both close] and some of the boxers on sweet_scientist's list were better than i realised when i checked them out.

One last point: If you are the Zen Master expert on older boxers like you are portraying yourself as, then why didn't you know of some of the biggest fights on the resumes of Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri? Are those two boxers in particular just holes in your knowledge?







Can any of these questions be answered?

[trampie]

Flipping Heck thats a monster post DINAMITA, i have answered the question, why a top 200 with current boxers in it and now, why a boda fide version.
{If you are not happy with the answer, well thats your problem}.

Back to this thread and the bona fide top 200, i will have a look at some of your concerns in the coming week, like i said i am open to changing my list.
One boxer that you have concerns about is Manny Pacquiao ranking, i wont be changing his ranking just yet, if he continues to win i will move him up the rankings.

[asero]

who did jofre beat to place him too high...in fact he sucks, in his most notable fight

[trampie]

Jofre is universally recognized as the greatest Bantamweight ever.
You like a panel or group of people to decide rankings dont you 'asero', well the International Boxing Research Organization says Jofre is the greatest bantamweight ever, they also have him as their 15th P4P greatest ever boxer, i have ranked Jofre higher than that at #18, he only ever lost to one man {twice} another great, 'fighting Harada'.

You say Jofre sucks in his most notable fight, well he lost to Harada in Japan both times {fights 1 year part}, one a split decision and one a close UD, Jofre was 7 years older than Harada, Jofre was 30 years old and Harada a prime 23, Jofre retired after the fight.
Jofre did return and was still very sucessfull, he even beat Vicente Salvador in what was billed as a super fight at the end of his career.

I dont think you realise how important home advantage is in boxing, not just time zones, different food, different languages, being away from your family but also you often get home town refs and home town judges.
America being the historical mecca of boxing, means that American boxers have enjoyed all the benefits that fighting at home gives.

[DINAMITA]

Flipping Heck thats a monster post DINAMITA, i have answered the question, why a top 200 with current boxers in it and now, why a boda fide version.
{If you are not happy with the answer, well thats your problem}.

I am very happy with it as I have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that you are a liar sir, and anyone who ever reads this thread or refers back to it will see that very plainly. :good

One boxer that you have concerns about is Manny Pacquiao ranking, i wont be changing his ranking just yet, if he continues to win i will move him up the rankings.

This is insanely illogical. Your reasoning for a SEVENTY-PLACE gap between Calzaghe and Pacquiao is flimsy to the point of absurdity.

The sole reason you have given for your low ranking of Pacquiao is that he has lost three times and drawn twice in a career of 50+ fight career where he was fought in many divisions, held many titles, and fought HOF boxers many times.

By the very same logic, there is no justification whatsoever for your comparatively very high rankings of Thomas Hearns, Roy Jones Jr and Felix Trinidad.

[asero]

do not include the fights of the fighter when he is only a prospect. when we do an ATG list, we must start from the point a boxer becomes a contender and end it when he ceases to be a contender.

[DINAMITA]

do not include the fights of the fighter when he is only a prospect. when we do an ATG list, we must start from the point a boxer becomes a contender and end it when he ceases to be a contender.

I must admit, I do agree to an extent.

Early career losses when a fighter may be overmatched or may just be green and still finding his own style etc, or near-end losses where a guy is clearly and undeniably shot to shit, neither of these categories of losses have a great impact on my assessment of their greatness.

Henry Armstrong lost his first pro fight. Obviously the guy he was in with was no great shake, seeing as he was fighting a complete novice in Armstrong. Does that loss hurt Armstrong anywhere near as much as if the same guy had beaten him when Henry was a world champion? Of course not. You're not the same fighter in your early career as your world level days. It's stupid to treat them the same.

[DINAMITA]

Another thing I like is that Trampie's reason for having Pacquiao 119th is that he has 3 losses and 2 draws, and yet he promotes himself as an afficianado of boxing from the early 20th century. Does anyone want to tell him to look at the number of losses and draws on those guys' records?

If that's the flimsy basis that one fighter is being judged on, at least be consistent and get someone like Emile Griffith moved down to about 180!

(Personally, I see Griffith as a top 30 man myself, as I don't make judgements on numbers)

[asero]

my problem here is when to stop taking into consideration the fights of a fighter...
say, dela hoya, would the pacquiao loss still have an impact in his lagacy? larry merchant says no, i would say yes because he is still considered to 100 p4p before the pacquiao fight
every fight of a fighter is considered and affects his legacy so long as he is a top 100 p4p fighter.

[DINAMITA]

my problem here is when to stop taking into consideration the fights of a fighter...
say, dela hoya, would the pacquiao loss still have an impact in his lagacy? larry merchant says no, i would say yes because he is still considered to 100 p4p before the pacquiao fight
every fight of a fighter is considered and affects his legacy so long as he is a top 100 p4p fighter.

I disagree completely.

Oscar losing to Pac, Tyson losing to Williams, Jones losing to Calzaghe, Leonard losing to Camacho, Whitaker losing to Tito, Duran losing to Camacho, Chavez losing to Tszyu, Ali losing to Holmes, and on and on and on and on and on....

There's comes a point in a boxer's career where a loss no longer affects their greatness/all-time standing. That point is called being shot.

[asero]

leonard,chavez and tyson is not a top 100 guy in that fights...

oscar is still top 100 because of the close PBF fight..
i would say that jones is not a top 100 guy in the calzaghe fight..

[alex paterson]

Good but did you forgot Esteban DeJesus and Ken Buchanan

[GPater11093]

good point alex

i think they would be lower top 100 or 110

[trampie]

Ken is #99 and Esteban #140

[alex paterson]

Ken is #99 and Esteban #140
O ye sorry my bad