Whitaker Deserves Super Credit.....

[George W Hedge]

I cant think of another elite atg boxer who dominated & beat some of the best boxers of their day the way Pernell did.... & all this when HE DIDNT HAVE A PUNCH.


Just how defensively sound & super skilled must whitaker have been to have beaten so many good fighters knowing that he couldnt crack an egg.

Ive heard fans say that pernell WOULD be in their top 5 or 10 fighters ever if he had a srl type of punch.... WHY:twisted: ..... surely this guy deserves MORE credit for have PURE BOXING skills so good that he can outpoint good (sometimes great) fighters consistently including many a shutouts, haugen, ramirez & pineda come to mind ALL world title fights.

This guy was masterfull, give him credit.

Ps. how many fighters in boxing history did what whitaker did without that punch ?????????? :yep

[Manassa]

You will find a lot of those boxers 'with the punch' got hit a lot more because they were trying to land those harder shots.

[rekcutnevets]

I think that saying he couldn't crack an egg is going a little far. He was no powerhouse by any means, but he did back up Chavez at times. I think he probably hit a little harder than his good friend Meldrick Taylor.

Whitaker should be recognized as the best champion of the 90's. He fought everyone he could to prove his worth. No one in the 90's even comes close to matching him in effort to face the best. If one would like to see how a legacy should be built, they would have to look no further than Whitaker.

He cleaned out the lightweight division before moving to junior welterweight. He picked up a world title against Pineda, and when a fight with Chavez didn't look like it would materialize, he moved to welterweight. He defeated McGirt for the welterweight title. McGirt was considered by most to be around the 4th or 5th best pound for pound fighter at the time. Chavez was #1, followed by Whitaker, and Terry Norris. After the McGirt fight, Whitaker finally got his chance against Chavez. He did not disappoint, but the decison did. A rematch with Chavez could not be made. After fighting Chavez, he fought nothing but his top contenders(except Jake the Snake) and gave rematches to anyone that people questioned the outcome, or circumstances, surrounding the fights. He even faced Julio Cezar Vasquez to briefly gain the Junior Middleweight championship.

[brownpimp88]

Whitaker beat 2 greats and a bunch of good or very good fighters. Ray Leonard beat 4 greats and 1 or 2 good or very good fighters. Pernell Whitaker had a far more dominant career than sugar ray leonard did.

[sweet_scientist]

Whitaker had a rare combination of slickness and toughness. Not many fighters in the history of the sport have both. Usually slick fighters are fragile, and tough fighters unskillful.

Becuase Whitaker was both slick and tough he was able to stand up to anything bigger men threw at him, and use his greater skills to outfight them.

Another somewhat rare feature of his was that he was both a slickster and had a great workrate. As we see with a lot of slick fighters today, they are evasive and skillful, but they don't throw 100 punches per round the way Pernell did. Having such a high workrate, combined with his skill, made it almost impossible to outpoint Whitaker.

I remember in his fight with Santos Cardona (who in my opinion is no better or worse than Carlos Baldomir) he did something rediculous like land 520+ punches. Even on the great Azumah Nelson he landed something rediculous like 460+ punches. His punch output was outstanding.

[la-califa]

NO doubt Whitaker was the best fighter of HIS era. But to say he was more dominant than Sugar Ray Leonard is a bit of a stretch... Put Whitaker in the ring against Duran that night in Montreal... Or against Thomas Hearns in Sept. of '81.

[sweet_scientist]

NO doubt Whitaker was the best fighter of HIS era. But to say he was more dominant than Sugar Ray Leonard is a bit of a stretch... Put Whitaker in the ring against Duran that night in Montreal... Or against Thomas Hearns in Sept. of '81.

He loses both imo, but in fairness to Pea, he wasn't a natural welter to have him be put up against a welter Hearns.

[la-califa]

Perhaps, But a Jr. Welter. Fight with with Wilfred Benitez would have been a beautiful boxing display. Honestly I couldn't give you a winner here...

[salsanchezfan]

NO doubt Whitaker was the best fighter of HIS era. But to say he was more dominant than Sugar Ray Leonard is a bit of a stretch... Put Whitaker in the ring against Duran that night in Montreal... Or against Thomas Hearns in Sept. of '81.



................It's all guesswork of course, but consider........

Leonard lost to Duran the first time, and was extended to the very limits of his abilities against Hearns. I don't fault him for this, I think Ray was a great fighter, but while Pea didn't fight guys as big or as strong as that, he did virtually shut out a truly great fighter in Nelson and completely humble an even better fighter in Chavez. He didn't struggle at all with either of those two legends while Leonard DID lose to Duran and nearly lost to Hearns. Relative abilities of those fighters aside, can you really say one set of circumstances trumps the other? That's a pretty big stretch.

[la-califa]

Yes, But consider this.... Nelson was at the end when he fought Whitaker, Not saying Nelson would ever beat Whitaker. And Chavez reached up one too many rungs on the ladder when he challenged Whitaker. Whitaker proved he could comfortably carry 147. As he later proved. Chavez started as a 130 pounder. & 147 was too much, he sacrificed power & speed and it cost him dearly. Whitaker had the ability to beat Chavez, But had the bout been at 135 or 140, Who knows?

[salsanchezfan]

Yes, But consider this.... Nelson was at the end when he fought Whitaker, Not saying Nelson would ever beat Whitaker. And Chavez reached up one too many rungs on the ladder when he challenged Whitaker. Whitaker proved he could comfortably carry 147. As he later proved. Chavez started as a 130 pounder. & 147 was too much, he sacrificed power & speed and it cost him dearly. Whitaker had the ability to beat Chavez, But had the bout been at 135 or 140, Who knows?


.............I disagree with both stances.

Nelson still had several excellent performances ahead of him after he fought Whitaker; besides, a shot fighter doesnt lose to Whitaker the way he lost to Whitaker. Shot fighters lose their legs or their chin; they lose their sharpness. Nelson still had every inch of all of those things. He was still strong and resolute; he still had that punching power; he could still set traps, and he was still sneaky quick. Any look at the Fenech II or Ruelas fights should echo this.

In addition, Chavez came into that fight at 142. Hardly very blown-up. He was the concensus choice as pound-for-pound best in the world, and a majority of people picked him to win that fight. Chavez had shown more than enough ability at 140, in fact that was where he made his household name. Whitaker, by comparison, was hardly a big welter either, coming in at only 145. In essence, they were both very small welters, so I don't see how size could be any kind of factor.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, But consider this.... Nelson was at the end when he fought Whitaker, Not saying Nelson would ever beat Whitaker. And Chavez reached up one too many rungs on the ladder when he challenged Whitaker. Whitaker proved he could comfortably carry 147. As he later proved. Chavez started as a 130 pounder. & 147 was too much, he sacrificed power & speed and it cost him dearly. Whitaker had the ability to beat Chavez, But had the bout been at 135 or 140, Who knows?

How was Nelson "at the end"? There were still a few good chapters left in the Azumah Nelson book, including a thumping of Fenech 2 years later, a thumping of Ruelas 5 years later, and a thumping of Leija 6 years later than the Whitaker fight. IMO Nelson was closer to his prime than what say Duran was for the Leonard rematch and Hagler was for the Leonard fight.

As for Chavez, he had been fighting at 140 for a good 3 or 4 years, and then went up to 142 for the Whitaker fight. Sacrificed power and speed? Hardly. Perhaps WHitaker could have absorbed the blows better at welter than he could at say 140, but would that really have mattered? Did he land anything in their fight to suggest that he was close to being hurt to change the tables at 140? Nothing I saw.

[la-califa]

Fenech, Lieja & Ruelas were all brawlers & it is a rare fighter who would out brawl Nelson. But Whitaker easily stayed away & outboxed him. Nelson knew his hand & foot speed were eluding him or he would have put pressure on Whitaker for a rematch, He never did. As for Chavez He immediately moved down & stayed away from the Welters. until age forced him up a few years later & he did not fare well. Whitaker on the other hand had great success at Welterweight in later years. Being able to carry a certain weight up is a very important factor in the outcome of fights. I'm not saying for certain Chavez would have beaten Whitaker at 135 or 140 but he would have made a better showing that he did. Just because De La Hoya beat Whitaker at Welter. Does that make him a better fighter, No. At Jr. Welterweight Whitaker would have most likely boxed circles around him. The weight is important. De La Hoya had a bigger frame & could more comfortably carry the weight & put it to effective use.

[sweet_scientist]

Fenech, Lieja & Ruelas were all brawlers & it is a rare fighter who would out brawl Nelson. But Whitaker easily stayed away & outboxed him. Nelson knew his hand & foot speed were eluding him or he would have put pressure on Whitaker for a rematch, He never did.

But what is to say that Nelson could EVER deal with Whitaker? And what possible pressure could there have been for a rematch? To see whether Nelson could win four rounds instead of two?

Nelson was simply outclassed and had no answers for Whitaker despite trying everything he could.

As for Chavez He immediately moved down & stayed away from the Welters. until age forced him up a few years later & he did not fare well. Whitaker on the other hand had great success at Welterweight in later years. Being able to carry a certain weight up is a very important factor in the outcome of fights. I'm not saying for certain Chavez would have beaten Whitaker at 135 or 140 but he would have made a better showing that he did. Just because De La Hoya beat Whitaker at Welter. Does that make him a better fighter, No. At Jr. Welterweight Whitaker would have most likely boxed circles around him. The weight is important. De La Hoya had a bigger frame & could more comfortably carry the weight & put it to effective use.

There's a few points I'd like to make here:

The reason Chavez never had any success at welterweight is because his style was largely grounded in being stronger, tougher and more resilient than his foes and breaking them down with his agressive style. It's hard to do that when guys are bigger than you. That was never Whitaker's style. He relied on skill and finesse and having the strength to withstand more powerful guys to win. He didn't try to overwhelm anyone at welterweight and junior middleweight, the way Chavez would try to do to opponents. As such Chavez's style was not conducive to rising up many ranks.

Now you could argue that this would have been a deciding issue between Chavez and Whitaker if you had some evidence to show that Chavez was hitting Whitaker with great shots and that possibly these shots would have taken their toll at a lower weight where Whitaker wasn't as heavy. But really, Chavez landed nothing substantial that could have changed the trajectory of the fight at any weight. In which case, I don't see how weight would have been a real issue. I also don't think Chavez lost much speed or power than what he had at 140 when he went up to 142, so again, it's not as if Chavez would have been hitting Whitaker harder and getting in with quicker shots at 140.

At 135, Chavez was quicker than at 140-2, he had more stamina as well and he could have hit Whitaker more often. But let's remember Whitaker
lost some speed and stamina in rising up the divisions too.

Overall, I pretty much see the same fight unfolding, only a quicker and more active version at 135. Maybe Chavez makes it a little closer, perhaps losing 7-5 or so. Maybe.


On Pea-DLH, I think that fight was decided by age as well as the weight. I thought Pea won anyway, but in my mind there's no doubt a three years younger Whitaker runs circles around DLH even at welterweight, to say nothing of the lighter weights.

[JohnThomas1]

He loses both imo, but in fairness to Pea, he wasn't a natural welter to have him be put up against a welter Hearns.


Exactly, when it comes to great against great there is only so much natural weight one can give away. Nelson found it vs Whitaker. Duran found it up vs Hearns and Hagler. Arguello vs Pryor, ETC. This class of opponent at 147 is very likely one step too many for Pernell, hardly a shame.

[la-califa]

Yes, you somewhat agree with my opinoins, Nelson's style was taylor made for Whitaker. But what I mean by speed is the Nelson who swarmed all over Sanchez & came close and showed tremendous heart. There is a short window for that kind of skill. & that's the kind of fighter it would have taken to be effective against Whitaker. By that time Nelson learned to box effectively & abandoned the windmill style to a degree. But a better boxer as say Whitaker made Nelson an easy target. Chavez: If you watch the Whitaker fight he didn't even throw as many punches as a prime Chavez. Could have been due to Whitaker or remember Chavez already had over a hundred fights under his belt. & Frankie Randall finished him off not too long afterward. Would Randall had stood a chance against a prime Chavez? Not taking anything away from Whitaker. It was a brilliant performance & he deseved the win.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, you somewhat agree with my opinoins, Nelson's style was taylor made for Whitaker. But what I mean by speed is the Nelson who swarmed all over Sanchez & came close and showed tremendous heart. There is a short window for that kind of skill. & that's the kind of fighter it would have taken to be effective against Whitaker. By that time Nelson learned to box effectively & abandoned the windmill style to a degree. But a better boxer as say Whitaker made Nelson an easy target. Chavez: If you watch the Whitaker fight he didn't even throw as many punches as a prime Chavez. Could have been due to Whitaker or remember Chavez already had over a hundred fights under his belt. & Frankie Randall finished him off not too long afterward. Would Randall had stood a chance against a prime Chavez? Not taking anything away from Whitaker. It was a brilliant performance & he deseved the win.
So you think the younger, more unrefined Nelson stands a better chance? Yeah maybe. The few rounds he did win came in the second half of the fight where he threw caution to the wind and swung from the rafters.

Just on Chavez's activity, I don't think he was ever a big volume puncher, and though I don't have any punch stats from his early days, its interesting to note that he threw 634 punches against Meldrick Taylor and 637 punches against Pernell Whitaker.

Whitaker I know in his lightweight days would often throw 1000 punches per fight in a 12 round fight, but against Chavez threw 790. His punch output as a whole declined as he went to welterweight, but against Chavez I'd say it was one of the highest of his welterweight career.

[JohnThomas1]

No version of Nelson would have stood a chance against Whitaker at 130. Whitaker has a very underrated beard and Nelson's (The much smaller man) only chance is by big punch, which at this weight he don't have.

[Mantequilla]

Whitaker was just flat out better than Nelson imo.

I doubt he has many problems beating him even in a p4p sense.

[JohnThomas1]

Whitaker was just flat out better than Nelson imo.

I doubt he has many problems beating him even in a p4p sense.

I have great respect for Nelson, but i will agree here. Whitaker is even better P4P and that's saying something.

[Vantage_West]

NO doubt Whitaker was the best fighter of HIS era. But to say he was more dominant than Sugar Ray Leonard is a bit of a stretch... Put Whitaker in the ring against Duran that night in Montreal... Or against Thomas Hearns in Sept. of '81.

leonard was lucky to be at the right place at the right time.

ali had just been beaten badly by holmes around the time the wold was looking for a idol they found a young olympian fighting pro. if he was fighting $3,000 on his debut you know he was pushed.

he had some good wins but was totally dismissed by an old(duran was an old fighter by now) heavy duran who wasnt used to the wieght like later years. and totally took him apart.

in the rematch it was super close only ray won the last round on a jab and run.

in the hearns fight he was beaten up badly and was to worried to go foreward to get smacked by the right hand. in the later rounds he tapped him on the chin and hearns did his ali impressions....the stoppage was bullshit hearns was tired but he should be warned before they stop it.

so right now he has been beaten up by duran and was being outboxed by hearns.
when he fought hagler it was maybe razor thin and only won the last 60 secounds of the round.

and in that he didnt give hagler a rematch. he totally dodged big comp and used boxing politics to get his way....a year before the hearns-leonard I fighthearns was calling him out while ra ywas saying only if the money is right

[Mantequilla]

Terrible post.

[Duodenum]

Sweet Pea was just inducted into the IBHOF, along with Duran, as soon as he became eligible. How much more credit can he get?

[la-califa]

Nicely Put. No doubt Sweet Pea deserves the Honor

[Robbi]

If Barry McGuigan can get into the Hall of Fame, anyone can. He won the world title against Pedroza, and lost it after two or there defenses. He held the WBA featherweight title for a year.

I'm not knocking Whitaker, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time. Only the very special fighters should be inducted, fighters like Robinson, Ali, Pep, Duran, Whitaker, etc.

[Robbi]

So you think the younger, more unrefined Nelson stands a better chance? Yeah maybe. The few rounds he did win came in the second half of the fight where he threw caution to the wind and swung from the rafters.

Just on Chavez's activity, I don't think he was ever a big volume puncher, and though I don't have any punch stats from his early days, its interesting to note that he threw 634 punches against Meldrick Taylor and 637 punches against Pernell Whitaker.

Whitaker I know in his lightweight days would often throw 1000 punches per fight in a 12 round fight, but against Chavez threw 790. His punch output as a whole declined as he went to welterweight, but against Chavez I'd say it was one of the highest of his welterweight
career.

Whitaker did stand more flat-footed as a welterweight, and while his overall punch activity dropped, he did get off with more power punches. Especially against McGirt in the rematch, Jacobs, and both the Rivera fights.

[la-califa]

Yes I agree, I read somewhere that there has to be an X amount of inductees every year. That is why some fighters are being considered which normally would not be. By the way is Pedroza in?

[Robbi]

Yes I agree, I read somewhere that there has to be an X amount of inductees every year. That is why some fighters are being considered which normally would not be. By the way is Pedroza in?

Yes. Im sure he got inducted in the mid-late 90's or early early 2000's.

[la-califa]

Good, Then my faith is renewed, Greatness IS still recognized.

[sweet_scientist]

Whitaker did stand more flat-footed as a welterweight, and while his overall punch activity dropped, he did get off with more power punches. Especially against McGirt in the rematch, Jacobs, and both the Rivera fights.
He was more flat footed, no doubt on that, not sure he got off on MORE power punches though. He was throwing quite a few power shots against the likes of Layne, Mayweather, Paez, Diaz, Haugen, Nazario, Lomeli, Pendleton at lightweight.

[JohnThomas1]

Terrible post.

One gets the feeling he might not like someone lol

[Duodenum]

If Barry McGuigan can get into the Hall of Fame, anyone can. He won the world title against Pedroza, and lost it after two or there defenses. He held the WBA featherweight title for a year.

I'm not knocking Whitaker, he's one of my favourite fighters of all time. Only the very special fighters should be inducted, fighters like Robinson, Ali, Pep, Duran, Whitaker, etc.Yes, if a given HOF is exclusive enough, the marketing should take care of itself. The IBHOF has managed to dilute itself in the mold of the other ones which have followed Cooperstown. (Has a thread ever been conducted which identifed the IBHOF enshrinees who do not belong?)

[Mantequilla]

One gets the feeling he might not like someone lol

Some of the criticisms of Leonard are just ridiculous.

It's like some fans feel the need to drag down every single thing the guy ever did.

I'm all for pointing out some of his more dubious practicises, but these guys take it way too far.

[JohnThomas1]

Some of the criticisms of Leonard are just ridiculous.

It's like some fans feel the need to drag down every single thing the guy ever did.

I'm all for pointing out some of his more dubious practicises, but these guys take it way too far.

And there's plenty of em.