Rank the Black Murderer's Row of the 30's and 40's

[Sweet Pea]

Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Bert Lytell
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall

How highly do you rate these oft-avoided (except by each other) great fighters in comparison with each other and in an all time sense? I think quite highly of the lot of them and guys like Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall (along with Burley, of course) are starting to be considered seriously in my rankings. These were fighters unafraid to take on anyone, anywhere, as long as anyone was willing to take them on.

[GPater11093]

i dont know alot about these guys i ll start reading up on them and come to a conclusion

[Sweet Pea]

i dont know alot about these guys i ll start reading up on them and come to a conclusionIt'd be worth your time. They really are an interesting group. Would've been interesting to see them against the likes of Henry Armstrong and Ray Robinson had said fighters taken those risks. Great fighters, but terribly avoided. The epitome of high-risk, low-reward fighters (in most circumstances).

[GPater11093]

is there any footage

cheers for mentioning them

[Sweet Pea]

is there any footage

cheers for mentioning them

Very little if any footage of most of them, as they rarely got the high-profile fights despite beating so many great fighters. There's some footage of Burley available that I know of (on Youtube). Otherwise it's very scarce. I believe there's footage of Lloyd Marshall as well.

[GPater11093]

ok will check it out and again thanks for the heads up

[GPater11093]

downlaoded some footage off of youtube i got burley vsbilly smith the whole fight that is the only footage available of him

[Sweet Pea]

downlaoded some footage off of youtube i got burley vsbilly smith the whole fight that is the only footage available of him
True. You can really see his skills even in that little footage. I'm off to watch it right now come to think of it. Just hit the bowl so I'm in a great watching mood.

[turpinr]

Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Bert Lytell
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall

How highly do you rate these oft-avoided (except by each other) great fighters in comparison with each other and in an all time sense? I think quite highly of the lot of them and guys like Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall (along with Burley, of course) are starting to be considered seriously in my rankings. These were fighters unafraid to take on anyone, anywhere, as long as anyone was willing to take them on.

sugar ray robinson was supposed to have aoided charley burley and lloyd marshall beat ezzard charles and battered freddie mills in 5

[GPater11093]

havent watched it yet Pea but will

[teeto]

I havent really debated this subject for some time now, but i used to generally have Bivins top and Burley just after him, though im not too sure because Burley was naturally not quite as large, a great welterweight he was in pure terms, but as we know, he made his mark as a great middleweight (for me) more so.

As for your question Sweet Pea, i can't say i will give you good insight in terms of rankings but can tell you what i rate highly about some of them (i know Bivins wasnt involved in the thread but thought i'd mention him). For me Williams and Booker are of the highest i'd rate. Williams with the weaknesses he had in attack and with the resume he compiled, truly great. While Coco Kid was clearly one of the best guys of the time, i think some of the others, Burley etc, were effectively better. But from what i've read it must have been great watching the kid, we'd respect him highly i think.

Look at Marshall's wins resume, truly astonishing, and yes, the losses resume may be there to even it out, but who that's a terrily harsh criticism with such competition level.

Imo Burley is the best of your mentioned bunch, this man was class, just look at what we have to study and you can see the technical profficiency of the man, i think he would be able to shut a lot of guys out with his style, and bang out a lot aswell

[teeto]

ok will check it out and again thanks for the heads up
If you are going to read up on the topic, 'The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion' may be the best book i've ever read. Gives good reflection on the situation with Sugar Ray Robinson aswell.

[Sweet Pea]

I havent really debated this subject for some time now, but i used to generally have Bivins top and Burley just after him, though im not too sure because Burley was naturally not quite as large, a great welterweight he was in pure terms, but as we know, he made his mark as a great middleweight (for me) more so.

As for your question Sweet Pea, i can't say i will give you good insight in terms of rankings but can tell you what i rate highly about some of them (i know Bivins wasnt involved in the thread but thought i'd mention him). For me Williams and Booker are of the highest i'd rate. Williams with the weaknesses he had in attack and with the resume he compiled, truly great. While Coco Kid was clearly one of the best guys of the time, i think some of the others, Burley etc, were effectively better. But from what i've read it must have been great watching the kid, we'd respect him highly i think.

Look at Marshall's wins resume, truly astonishing, and yes, the losses resume may be there to even it out, but who that's a terrily harsh criticism with such competition level.

Imo Burley is the best of your mentioned bunch, this man was class, just look at what we have to study and you can see the technical profficiency of the man, i think he would be able to shut a lot of guys out with his style, and bang out a lot aswell

Good post. I particularly agree with the last bit. Burley was as crafty and skilled as they came, and unorthodox to boot. His style would've given any WW hell. I'd love to have seen him against a Napoles or Gavilan type.

[the cobra]

I'd have Burley, Williams, and Marshall inside my top 100 if I had one. Burley somewhere around 20-25, Williams probably somewhere around 40, Marshall just a bit further back.

After those three, compared to each other, I'd add in Bivins, followed by Booker, then probably Lytell, Cocoa Kid, Chase, and Wade in that order, although I know less about Wade than the others.

[teeto]

Good post. I particularly agree with the last bit. Burley was as crafty and skilled as they came, and unorthodox to boot. His style would've given any WW hell. I'd love to have seen him against a Napoles or Gavilan type.
Yeah imagine it, seeing how he would go about offsetting the other's strengths. We really have been deprived some special footage here havent we.

[PowerPuncher]

I'm going to have a go (excluding the future HWs Charles/Moore/Bivins), with resume and achievements in context. I have a bias towards Burley though :D

Charley Burley (Moore, deserved the series against Holman and Zivic, Chase, Smith, Wade multiple times despite being the natural WW held his own against Charles/Bivins/Marshall)

Holman Williams (extra points for starting at LW and holding his own in the Burley series, beat Marshall (winning the series 2-1), Chase, Cocoa Kid, going 1-1 with Archies Moore, 146wins. 34 and 150+ fights behind him when he gave Lamotta and Cerdan closish fights

Eddie Booker - stoppage win over Moore (before Burley) and a draw, 1-1-1 with Williams, beat Marshall

Lloyd Marshall - some may argue he should be higher with wins over Young/Green Ezzard Charles (before being ko'd twice by Ezzard), SD against Burley, Lamotta, Old Williams (lost 1-2), Chase, BUT Marshall was a natural SMW/LHW so had a weight advantage and when Moore and Charles were coming into their own was dominated twice by each

Bert Lytell - went 1-1 with a fading Burley, twice beat Williams (past prime but drew and lost prior to that), wins over Cocoa kid and Wade, other than that didnt face the other top fighters of the day

Cocoa Kid - got the better of Holman Williams time and again, for the most part seemed to lose against the better fighters, did start as a LW and then WW and kudos has to be given for fighting the big names from LW to LHW

Jack Chase

Aaron Wade

[GPater11093]

If you are going to read up on the topic, 'The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion' may be the best book i've ever read. Gives good reflection on the situation with Sugar Ray Robinson aswell.

i will have a look for it

[stevebhoy87]

If you are going to read up on the topic, 'The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion' may be the best book i've ever read. Gives good reflection on the situation with Sugar Ray Robinson aswell.

Will second that, probably the best boxing book i've read and gives a brilliant overview of the period.

[GPater11093]

i will definitly look for it then

[Minotauro]

This is tought to rank but I have a go
1. Charley Burley
2. Holman Williams
3. Lloyd Marhsall
4. Cocoa Kid/ Eddie Booker
5. Jack Chase
6. Bert Lytell
7. Aaron Wade

If you include Bivins he would be number 4 the top three are very close pretty much interchangeable.

[My2Sense]

I'd probably rate Marshall and Williams as the best of them.

Then Burley and Booker right after them.

Then Chase, and then the rest.

If Bivins was on that list, he'd be the best of them all IMO.

[WhataRock]

I got Burley the highest to tell you the truth. Around 30-35 from memory.

Williams and Marshall make my top 100..Cocoa Kid and Booker made it into my top120 but got pushed out. Whether they deserved to be or not Im not sure because I dont know enough about them..So I was probably being a little unfair and uninformed by putting some guys Im more familiar with in front.

I really do not know much about Wade or Lytell, other than just being familiar with their names...Ive been inspired to look into them more now.

Interesting thread.

[My2Sense]

Eddie Booker - stoppage win over Moore (before Burley) and a draw, 1-1-1 with Williams, beat Marshall



Booker is the most underrated of them IMO. He might well have been on his way to being the best of them, except his career ended abruptly on an eye injury. Even with the eye already injured, he KO'd Archie Moore in one of his last fights. He was never stopped or KO'd himself, and reportedly was undefeated in his first 40-50 fights or so.

I always found it strange and a bit unfair, that Charley Burley gets so celebrated for his decision win over Moore (it really is the backbone of his legacy), yet Booker's own win over Moore - the first time that Moore was ever KO'd - a couple months before Burley beat him, is almost totally forgotten. You'd think the story of a "one-eyed" fighter KOing Archie Moore shortly before being forced to retire is something that would be talked about a lot more than it is.

[TommyV]

Charley Burley was an exceptional fighter. Definately cracks my top 25 of all-time.

Ridiculous that Lloyd Marshall isn't in the IBHOF, his resume is outstanding.

[WhataRock]

Charley Burley was an exceptional fighter. Definately cracks my top 25 of all-time.

Ridiculous that Lloyd Marshall isn't in the IBHOF, his resume is outstanding.

And Barry McGuigan is..:-(

The credibility of that particular organization is quickly dissipating in my eyes.

[McGrain]

Charley Burley
Eddie Booker
Bert Lytell
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall

How highly do you rate these oft-avoided (except by each other) great fighters in comparison with each other and in an all time sense? I think quite highly of the lot of them and guys like Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall (along with Burley, of course) are starting to be considered seriously in my rankings. These were fighters unafraid to take on anyone, anywhere, as long as anyone was willing to take them on.


The trickiest one is Booker.

Booker is named, consistantly, amongst the very best some guy has seen/fought. Moore rated him almost as high as Burley. He beat Moore, Williams, Hogue, Marshall, Jannazzo, you know who he beat, but it's troubling how much he struggled with the best he fought - he also lost to Hogue, lost to Cocoa Kid, lost and seemed to have difficult imposing himself upon decent opponents who he was edging ahead of - lots of draws.

But there's more than that.

Booker did a lot of fighting in Calafornia, at the exact time when fights in Calafornia were being fixed. There may never have been such a horrible intersection of time and place in terms of fixed fights. This makes things harder, much harder.

Booker is unlikely to have profited by this arrangement, he was at the very least a master boxer with no political power behind him, like you say, a guy who would fight anyone, who got above 175, who was never stopped, but he is also likely to have been cuffed. It's likely that Booker involved in fights where he was cuffed - Big Boy Hogue and Cocoa Kid are examples of business fighters he lost/drew with. Now these results could be straight up. There's no proof they were fixed. But for sure, Booker's loss to the excellent Jack Chase does not stack up with his reputation amongst his peers.

There are even mutters that Burley ducked him.

Defensive master. There may very well be great, great HW's that would not beat him. For footage, I'd gut you, whoever you are, reading this.

[McGrain]

Here's the way I do it, with no apologies for the reaching.

Charley Burley
Holman Williams
Lloyd Marshall
Eddie Booker
Bert Lytell
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Cocoa Kid

[McGrain]

downlaoded some footage off of youtube i got burley vsbilly smith the whole fight that is the only footage available of him


Smith was a really big punching light-heavyweight, avoided himself. Strange mother-fucker, once ran out of the ring when he was fighting Moore:lol:

Burley's a welterweight. Smith was a big punching ranked light-heavy and Burley bosses him. The mind boogles, really. Imagine Cotto bullying Tarver.

[McGrain]

I Imo Burley is the best of your mentioned bunch, this man was class, just look at what we have to study and you can see the technical profficiency of the man, i think he would be able to shut a lot of guys out with his style, and bang out a lot aswell


One of the best one-two's in the history of the sport, I think.

[McGrain]

All time -

Burley, 15
Williams, 40
Marshall, 61
Booker, around 100

I actually rated Cocoa Kid around the same sort of slot as Booker for a long time, but I just lost patience with him. He's about as tough as Booker to rate, because he was diving bastard. His dive against Smith is one of the most notoriously bad in history.

[McGrain]

A cracking source for anyone who wants to learn a bit more:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Burley has a MySpace page!:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[WhataRock]

Cheers for that Mc

[McGrain]

No bother.

[dpw417]

I wonder what footage there is of the 'Row' ?

I've heard there's Marshall footage of his fight w/ Mills. and maybe Tommy Farr?

Has anyone seen these?

Too bad there isn't anything on Booker and Williams...and more on Burley for that matter!

[Sweet Pea]

All time -

Burley, 15
Williams, 40
Marshall, 61
Booker, around 100

I actually rated Cocoa Kid around the same sort of slot as Booker for a long time, but I just lost patience with him. He's about as tough as Booker to rate, because he was diving bastard. His dive against Smith is one of the most notoriously bad in history.Is that, then, why you rate Kid last? I'd have him around 4th.

[My2Sense]

Ridiculous that Lloyd Marshall isn't in the IBHOF, his resume is outstanding.

Yep, he should've got in around the same time as Burley. Disgraceful that it's taken so long for the Hall to even acknowledge him. What's the deal??

[McGrain]

Is that, then, why you rate Kid last? I'd have him around 4th.

You could certainly rate him 3rd or 4th validily pased upon the Williams series.

[Minotauro]

I wonder what footage there is of the 'Row' ?

I've heard there's Marshall footage of his fight w/ Mills. and maybe Tommy Farr?

Has anyone seen these?

Too bad there isn't anything on Booker and Williams...and more on Burley for that matter!

There is footage of Marshall vs Charles 2 Lloyd looks very good drops Charles early is good defensively throws some very nice combos and excellent feints some of the best I've seen, Charles eventually stops him with a body shot. His style was similar to that of Archie Moore.

I've always found it strange that many rank Burley very highly top 25 sometimes higher and rightfully so yet have Williams and Marshall just around 50 or lower. They all have similar records against common opponents were all denied title shots and resumes are very close in fact Marshall and Williams probably have slightly better resume's then Burley. I would personally rank all of them very closely.

[McGrain]

They can certainly be ranked closely.

I think the difference with Burley is contempory accounts. Everyone that met or saw Burley fight, with exception of Bivins, ranks him amongst the very, very best they saw or fought. There are one or two people who talk about Burley as the very best that every fought in terms of pure ability. Remember who his contempories were when considering that fact.

The same can't be said of Williams, although he has many great admirers (Futch) or Marshall (Though he did create a stir of admiration wherever he went, especially when he came to the UK). Probably the most admired of the Murderer's row after Burley was Booker.

[GPater11093]

theres footage of burley i ahve it only 1 fight though against billy smith

[teeto]

One of the best one-two's in the history of the sport, I think.
GREAT avatar

[stevebhoy87]

While were on the subject what do people make of another black welterweight of the time jackie wilson, he holds some very good wins over fighters like Cocoa Kid, Ceferino Garcia, Mike Kaplan, Fritzie Zivic etc.

How highly do people rate him, up there with the murderers row?

[Sweet Pea]

While were on the subject what do people make of another black welterweight of the time jackie wilson, he holds some very good wins over fighters like Cocoa Kid, Ceferino Garcia, Mike Kaplan, Fritzie Zivic etc.

How highly do people rate him, up there with the murderers row?There were so many excellent fighters around that time period (particularly around that weight class) that guys like Wilson just get lost in the shuffle, along with certain members of the Murderer's Row.