Where does Chavez rank among the

[redrooster]

Mexican greats?

Was he better than Barrerra and Sanchez?

[robert ungurean]

Chavez was the best in my book.No doubt about it either.

[redrooster]

I'm starting to see the light about Chavez now. I would have liked to see him face my man Camacho around mid 80's and I still think he'd give him major fits but Julio has to be given a chance.

In my book Hector was the only opponent that would count for Chavez, not guys like DLH or Pernell even tho Pernell was a pretty decent fighter in his own right.

but who's to say he couldn't get Hector in trouble and take control? He would if he put enough pressure on. I saw Williams, a fighter from south america back Hector up so in a 15 round I think Chavez has a chance.

[Asterion]

Chavez is what Sanchez would've become more or less.

[sweet_scientist]

Understatement of the week. :D


He ain't no macho man!

[salsanchezfan]

Best fighter ever out of Mexico, absolutely.

[redrooster]

What about Sanchez, Sanchez? he won every big match he was ever in.

[salsanchezfan]

What about Sanchez, Sanchez? he won every big match he was ever in.


...............Nope; longevity means a lot, and Chavez has that over Sanchez in spades. Sanchez was great, but Chavez was greater.

[redrooster]

He ain't no macho man!

didn't mean to offend. I thought Hector would have been his big test in the 80's but I guess we'll have to settle for Rosario.

BTW, I will try to get my videos posted on tube next week. I'm dying to put on Leonard on.

[brooklyn1550]

Chavez=Mexico's greatest fighter

[TBooze]

He was the best Mexican ever IMO:

10 Erik Morales
9 Vicente Saldivar
8 Lupe Pintor
7 Salvador Sanchez
6 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth)
4 Ricardo Lopez
3 Ruben Olivares
2 Carlos Zarate
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.

[My dinner with Conteh]

1st or 2nd (with Sanchez). Not including defected Cubans.

[Minotauro]

Chavez has to be the greatest Mexican fighter his achievements surpass Sanchez due to his early passing and the like of Barrea, Morales and Oliveras.

[sweet_scientist]

didn't mean to offend. I thought Hector would have been his big test in the 80's but I guess we'll have to settle for Rosario.

BTW, I will try to get my videos posted on tube next week. I'm dying to put on Leonard on.
I think an 1986 fight between Hector and Julio would have been just about right in terms of timing. Chavez should have made the move up and challenged Hector at 135 instead of fighting weight drained and taking on the likes of Laporte and Lockridge at 130. It's regrettable the fight never got made until as late as it did. Having said that, if Camacho was more disciplined and kept the weight off instead of division jumping just about every year in the mid 80's the fight probably would have been made sooner rather than later.

Good to hear about the youtube fights btw, look forward to seeing some of your prime Camacho stuff.:good

[Mantequilla]

Napoles would be number one if you consider him Mexican(i don't).

[la-califa]

He was the best Mexican ever IMO:

10 Erik Morales
9 Vicente Saldivar
8 Lupe Pintor
7 Salvador Sanchez
6 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth)
4 Ricardo Lopez
3 Ruben Olivares
2 Carlos Zarate
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.

Pipino Cuevas or Mando Ramos don't Rate?

[la-califa]

Camacho was IN his prime when Rosario ruined him. & we all know what happened to Rosario at the hands of Chavez.

[Robbi]

I care not to see that one, because you probably also think that was a prime Leonard.:lol:

Put up some prime Macho, the guy that was in his prime, right around the time he got schooled by Whitaker in the gym.

Whitaker was jetlagged as well, he was hours off a plane before he schooled Camacho.

[Luigi1985]

Whitaker was jetlagged as well, he was hours off a plane before he schooled Camacho.


:mad: Are you Whitaker- nuthuggers finally ready now with your nuthugging?

[Luigi1985]

I think you still vastly underestimate him. Head to head he was about as good as they came.


I think the guys who are long enough here on ESB know that I´m a Whitaker-fan, but some of his nuthugging- fans get slowly on my nerves, in every thread they´re coming with him, that´s my "problem"...

[Luigi1985]

We were getting at Redrooster because of his nuthugging of Camacho, and his delusional tendancies. He says Camacho was all this and that and that he would beat someone of Whitaker's caliber, but doesn't acknowledge the schooling Whitaker gave him in his own gym.


I read his post, but you guys didn´t need to respond with the typical "Whitaker schooled..."-shit, everyone who knows a bit about boxing and/ or isn´t biased against Sweet Pea knows how great he was... (and the story with "GayMacho" Camacho) :thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

IMO Chavez was legacywise the best Mexikan ever, only Zarate and Sanchez come close to him...

[la-califa]

I'm not entirelly sure, but is that Picture Luigi Minchillo? Fighter from the eightie's.

[sweet_scientist]

Here's a go at my top 10:

Julio Cesar Chavez
Salvador Sanchez
Carlos Zarate
Miguel Canto
Ruben Olivares
Vicente Saldivar
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Baby Arizmendi

[Robbi]

Here's a go at my top 10:

Julio Cesar Chavez
Salvador Sanchez
Carlos Zarate
Miguel Canto
Ruben Olivares
Vicente Saldivar
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Baby Arizmendi



Lopez should be much higher, top five, and could also make a strong case for being top three. He ticks so many boxes. Longevity, fought the best the 105lb division had to offer, although the division lacked marquee fights. He was technically as sound as any other fighter on your list. Infact, he was probably technically the best mexican fighter of all time. Textbook. Sanchez may well have been smoother and slicker (not as robotic), thus being slightly more unorthdox.

Lopez retired unbeaten, with the draw against Alvarez being the only blemish on his record. Just to top things off, he moved up and captured the IBF title.

[sweet_scientist]

Lopez should be much higher, top five, and could also make a strong case for being top three. He ticks so many boxes. Longevity, fought the best the 105lb division had to offer, although the division lacked marquee fights. He was technically as sound as any other fighter on your list. Infact, he was probably technically the best mexican fighter of all time. Textbook. Sanchez may well have been smoother and slicker, thus being slightly more unorthdox.

Lopez retired unbeaten, with the draw against Alvarez being the only blemish on his record. Just to top things off, he moved up and captured the IBF title.

I thought he lost the first Alvarez fight by a point and had the second one a draw, but that's not really why I have him ranked where he is. Lopez was on the decline by then anyway.

His resume is his major drawback imo. He only fought a handful of good fighters. He fought none great and none near great and whatsmore none near elite either.

[Robbi]

I thought he lost the first Alvarez fight by a point and had the second one a draw, but that's not really why I have him ranked where he is. Lopez was on the decline by then anyway.

His resume is his major drawback imo. He only fought a handful of good fighters. He fought none great and none near great and whatsmore none near elite either.

Yeah, his quality of opposition does hold him back from others on your list, no question. But he's very underated as an ATG. I think he deserves to be mentioned among the very best fighters of the 90's.

[Luigi1985]

I'm not entirelly sure, but is that Picture Luigi Minchillo? Fighter from the eightie's.


No, it´s Guido Trane, an Italian HW, who fought Formean during his comeback, but you´re right, he really looks like the bigger brother of Minchillo... :yep

[red cobra]

I think both Barrerra and Sanchez would have beaten him, particularly Sanchez. Sal Sanchez was atypical of Mexican fighters and was sometihng relly special.

[Holmes' Jab]

He'd rank as #1, no doubt. Had Sal Sanchez' life/boxing career not been so tragically cut short he would likely have challenged strongly for this honour.

Barrera is a very good fighter but would rank third on this list.

[redrooster]

Umm. no offense, guy, but where have you been? Did you not see the beating that Chavez gave Camacho? Chavez was already on the downside of his career at that.

But that was in the 90's long after the prime of Hector Camacho which doesn't count. Well, maybe to some people it does but not for someone who's seen the best of both. I'm talking about at 130 around early 80's.

Hector was the man and in the forefront of the obxing scene, but Julio was in his shadow. In the early 90's it was the opposite situation as Hector had dissapeared into near anonymity, his talents all but completely gone by then and actually losing to the likes of Haugen, who was mediocre.

[red cobra]

If Barrera was to beat him ever, it would have been at the period that he beat Hamed and transformed himself into the master boxer he became, not at the time he lost Pac-man, although losing to Pac is not a disgrace by any means. Sanchez, on the other hand, was magic. He would have decisioned Chavez at both men's peak.

[Bad_Intentions]

chavez>barrera>morales>the marques bro's

[la-califa]

A pressure fighter like Nelson gave Sanchez fits. As much as I love Sanchez, He could not hold off Chavez & didn't posses the power to keep Chavez at bay. Barrera & Chavez are both great offensive fighters who love to give and take. But Chavez' chin is the major difference between them.

[divac]

We were getting at Redrooster because of his nuthugging of Camacho, and his delusional tendancies. He says Camacho was all this and that and that he would beat someone of Whitaker's caliber, but doesn't acknowledge the schooling Whitaker gave him in his own gym.

Can someone enlighten me on this supposed schooling.....
....when did this exactly take place?
When, where, and is there video footage of this supposed sparring!

.....or is this supposed sparring session just heresay from the mouth of Whitaker or somebody in his camp????

Enlighten me please?

[sweet_scientist]

Can someone enlighten me on this supposed schooling.....
....when did this exactly take place?
When, where, and is there video footage of this supposed sparring!

.....or is this supposed sparring session just heresay from the mouth of Whitaker or somebody in his camp????

Enlighten me please?
I've heard it said from two sources.

In one, an English boxing writer called Gavin Evans (who I think now rights for Ring magazine) in an Australian Boxing Publication called "The Fist", said "Even before lifting Olympic Gold, he (Whitaker) outclassed Hector Camacho in sparring." The article he wrote that in was called "The Most-Underrated boxers of All Time". Just if anyone is interested, here is his list:
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Sam Langford
4. Larry Holmes
5. Packey McFarland
6. Charley Burley
7. Jack Blackburn
8. Sonny Liston
9. Owen Moran
10. Tiger Flowers


The other source was Emmanuel Steward in "Boxing Monthly" about a year ago. He said:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game.""

There was a chat with Pernell Whitaker over at Maxboxing.com not too long ago and I asked Pernell about it. Here was the interaction:

=========

Manny Steward recently said this in Boxing Monthly Magazine:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game."

Any truth to that? How did those sparring sessions go? How come you didn't get to fight Hector as a pro?


Pernell_Whitaker:very true
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]haha
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF] we always talk about it when we see each other
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]I was in the amateurs and we sparred
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]in Detroit in Kronk and I was getting the best of him when he tried to get dirty with me by pulling my head down and throwing an uppercut
Pernell_Whitaker:[COLOR=#3366ff]he remembers

============================

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:good

[Luigi1985]

I've heard it said from two sources.

In one, an English boxing writer called Gavin Evans (who I think now rights for Ring magazine) in an Australian Boxing Publication called "The Fist", said "Even before lifting Olympic Gold, he (Whitaker) outclassed Hector Camacho in sparring." The article he wrote that in was called "The Most-Underrated boxers of All Time". Just if anyone is interested, here is his list:
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Sam Langford
4. Larry Holmes
5. Packey McFarland
6. Charley Burley
7. Jack Blackburn
8. Sonny Liston
9. Owen Moran
10. Tiger Flowers


The other source was Emmanuel Steward in "Boxing Monthly" about a year ago. He said:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game.""

There was a chat with Pernell Whitaker over at Maxboxing.com not too long ago and I asked Pernell about it. Here was the interaction:

=========

Manny Steward recently said this in Boxing Monthly Magazine:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game."

Any truth to that? How did those sparring sessions go? How come you didn't get to fight Hector as a pro?


Pernell_Whitaker:very true
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]haha
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF] we always talk about it when we see each other
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]I was in the amateurs and we sparred
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]in Detroit in Kronk and I was getting the best of him when he tried to get dirty with me by pulling my head down and throwing an uppercut
Pernell_Whitaker:[COLOR=#3366ff]he remembers

============================

:good




That´s why I personally call Evans a joke, sorry to sound so disrespectful, but look at his list, I agree with Charles, Langford, McFarland, Burley, Blackburn, Moran and Flowers, but the others...

Liston is getting so overrated, many have him now in their Top3, how can he be underrated? Some with Whitaker, he totally gets the respect he deserves, Holmes with his title reign (and the struggle he had there) can´t also be underrated, he´s in every Top10, and that´s right...

[sweet_scientist]

That´s why I personally call Evans a joke, sorry to sound so disrespectful, but look at his list, I agree with Charles, Langford, McFarland, Burley, Blackburn, Moran and Flowers, but the others...

Liston is getting so overrated, many have him now in their Top3, how can he be underrated? Some with Whitaker, he totally gets the respect he deserves, Holmes with his title reign (and the struggle he had there) can´t also be underrated, he´s in every Top10, and that´s right...
Bear in mind this article was written about 1999. I think it was a good list for its time, but yeah, since then the likes of Charles, Pea, Liston, Holmes, Langford and Burley have got their due respects.

Fighters like McFarland, Blackburn, Moran and Flowers continue to be underrated though.

[Luigi1985]

Bare in mind this article was written about 1999. I think it was a good list for its time, but yeah, since then the likes of Charles, Pea, Liston, Holmes, Langford and Burley have got their due respects.

Fighters like McFarland, Blackburn, Moran and Flowers continue to be underrated though.


Like I wrote, I agree with the likes of Flowers, Moren, Blackburn, etc., but even at 99, Whitaker, Liston, etc. weren´t underrated by the boxing experts, they got/ get the respect they deserve...

[sweet_scientist]

Like I wrote, I agree with the likes of Flowers, Moren, Blackburn, etc., but even at 99, Whitaker, Liston, etc. weren´t underrated by the boxing experts, they got/ get the respect they deserve...

What makes you say that? Where (in which publication) did you see the experts rating Whitaker amongst the all time best that was warranted around that time? Are you saying it with anything specifc in mind?

To give a vague idea, in 1996 Whitaker was rated no. 21 in the last 50 years, with fighters like Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, Carlos Zarate, Ike Williams, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Ruben Olivares ranked ahead of him.

Does that sound fair?

I can't see how his stock would have arisen all that much within a few years when he lost controversially to DLH, tested positive to coke and lost to Tito during that time. I think Whitaker was underrated until some time after his retirement when people started finally taking stock of how good he really was.

[Drew101]

Chavez is my #1 all-time for Mexican pros in terms of accomplishments and longevity.

[divac]

I've heard it said from two sources.

In one, an English boxing writer called Gavin Evans (who I think now rights for Ring magazine) in an Australian Boxing Publication called "The Fist", said "Even before lifting Olympic Gold, he (Whitaker) outclassed Hector Camacho in sparring." The article he wrote that in was called "The Most-Underrated boxers of All Time". Just if anyone is interested, here is his list:
1. Ezzard Charles
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Sam Langford
4. Larry Holmes
5. Packey McFarland
6. Charley Burley
7. Jack Blackburn
8. Sonny Liston
9. Owen Moran
10. Tiger Flowers


The other source was Emmanuel Steward in "Boxing Monthly" about a year ago. He said:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game.""

There was a chat with Pernell Whitaker over at Maxboxing.com not too long ago and I asked Pernell about it. Here was the interaction:

=========

Manny Steward recently said this in Boxing Monthly Magazine:

"When Whitaker was still an amateur he flew to Detroit and arrived at about two in the morning. He was all jet-lagged and everything, and the next day in the gym he beat the shit out of Hector Camacho, who was at the top of his game."

Any truth to that? How did those sparring sessions go? How come you didn't get to fight Hector as a pro?


Pernell_Whitaker:very true
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]haha
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF] we always talk about it when we see each other
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]I was in the amateurs and we sparred
Pernell_Whitaker:[color=#3366FF]in Detroit in Kronk and I was getting the best of him when he tried to get dirty with me by pulling my head down and throwing an uppercut
Pernell_Whitaker:[COLOR=#3366ff]he remembers

============================

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:good

Thats mighty impressive if true.....as you know, sometimes stories get exaggerated with time.......or it could be a case as I've heard with Spadafora schooling Mayweather, where Spadafora was sharp and training for a fight, and Mayweather had been out of the gym for a while.Regardless, I wold have loved to have seen Whitaker and Camacho box for real as either lightweights or Jr. Welters!A win over Camacho for Pernell would have been a bigger feat imo over any other win Pernell had in his lightweight and Jr Welter career.

[sweet_scientist]

Thats mighty impressive if true.....as you know, sometimes stories get exaggerated with time.......or it could be a case as I've heard with Spadafora schooling Mayweather, where Spadafora was sharp and training for a fight, and Mayweather had been out of the gym for a while.Regardless, I wold have loved to have seen Whitaker and Camacho box for real as either lightweights or Jr. Welters!A win over Camacho for Pernell would have been a bigger feat imo over any other win Pernell had in his lightweight and Jr Welter career.

At the end of the day it's sparring, and sparring and fighting are somwhat different things, so even if it is true, you can only attach so much importance to it. But this sounds like it was no Spadafora-Mayweather match. As Steward said, Camacho was at the top of his game. I take it that means he wasn't coming in like Mayweather did for the Spadafora fight not having trained for a while.

In any case, I think Whitaker would beat Camacho no matter where or when they fought. Pernell was just more tenacious, and I think he'd press the fight and force Camacho to fight him like he did to Buddy McGirt. Camacho would probably oblige for a while too, for he probably wouldn't respect Pernell's power all that much. In that time he would get a lesson on infighting and bodypunching, until he'd slown down a tad and Pernell would pick him apart on the outside in the second half of the fight.

[Sonny Carson]

He was the greatest Mexican fighter ever even though I think Sanchez would have beat him. Sanchez could outbraw and outbox him.

[redrooster]

I hate to dissagree with my good friend Scientist but I remember a report in a publication around '85 that says just the opposite that the match was stopped to save Pernell. Even if true Pernell was little more than a 4 round prelim fighter and Hector a two time world champion. It would make sense that Hector with his experience might manhandle him and no one could hope to match the speed of Camacho.

[divac]

At the end of the day it's sparring, and sparring and fighting are somwhat different things, so even if it is true, you can only attach so much importance to it. But this sounds like it was no Spadafora-Mayweather match. As Steward said, Camacho was at the top of his game. I take it that means he wasn't coming in like Mayweather did for the Spadafora fight not having trained for a while.

In any case, I think Whitaker would beat Camacho no matter where or when they fought. Pernell was just more tenacious, and I think he'd press the fight and force Camacho to fight him like he did to Buddy McGirt. Camacho would probably oblige for a while too, for he probably wouldn't respect Pernell's power all that much. In that time he would get a lesson on infighting and bodypunching, until he'd slown down a tad and Pernell would pick him apart on the outside in the second half of the fight.

Emmanuel saying that Camacho was at the top of his game could mean that he was at the height of his career, and not neccesarily his training regimen.

We're on the right page in questioning Camacho's tenacity.
He was never the same fighter after his struggle with Rosario.
He tasted something from Rosario that he never wanted to experience again, and it affected Camacho as a fighter.

.....but I have great respect for Camacho's skillset. His offensive skills were by far superior to Pernell Whitaker's.
Camacho also had a more varied offensive attack to that of Meldrick Taylor.
What Camacho lacked was toughness in not deviating from his plan once he tasted hard leather.
That was brought on from his experience with Rosario.

Btw, I have so much respect for Camacho's skillset, that I have no doubt in my mind that he would have given Chavez a handful in a prime for prime match......before Rosario put the fear in him!:lol:

Whitaker was'nt one to attack and be aggresive however. I look at a prime for prime between Whitaker and Camacho as a near pickem, with a slight edge to Camacho.

Whitaker could be Hopkins nasty in that ring, and there is a chance he could make Camacho lose his cool and throw him off his game plan.
No doubt, Whitaker was mentally the tougher fighter.
Check that, maybe not an edge to Camacho, more like a clear pickem fight!

[sweet_scientist]

Emmanuel saying that Camacho was at the top of his game could mean that he was at the height of his career, and not neccesarily his training regimen.
That's true.

We're on the right page in questioning Camacho's tenacity.
He was never the same fighter after his struggle with Rosario.
He tasted something from Rosario that he never wanted to experience again, and it affected Camacho as a fighter.
I have a different theory on this one. The Rosario fight didn't change Hector. It revealed what was latent in him. I think Camacho's fall had more to do with partying and not training and being as sharp as he used to be. It wasn't so much mental scarring as it was laziness and other priorities imo which lead to a physical decline.

.....but I have great respect for Camacho's skillset. His offensive skills were by far superior to Pernell Whitaker's.
Camacho also had a more varied offensive attack to that of Meldrick Taylor.
What Camacho lacked was toughness in not deviating from his plan once he tasted hard leather.
That was brought on from his experience with Rosario.
By far superior to Whitaker's? How so?

Speed I concede, Whitaker wasn't on Camacho's level, but what else made Hector's offense so superior?

Did he throw more than Whitaker, who regularly threw 1000 punches per 12 round fight? Was he more accurate than Whitaker? Did he have better infighting skills than Whitaker? I answer no to all those questions.

Btw, I have so much respect for Camacho's skillset, that I have no doubt in my mind that he would have given Chavez a handful in a prime for prime match......before Rosario put the fear in him!:lol:
I also think it would be close, but Chavez would have hit Camacho and made him want none of it too imo. It just might have taken a few more punches than the powerful single shots Rosario fed him.

Whitaker was'nt one to attack and be aggresive however. I look at a prime for prime between Whitaker and Camacho as a near pickem, with a slight edge to Camacho.

Whitaker could be Hopkins nasty in that ring, and there is a chance he could make Camacho lose his cool and throw him off his game plan.
No doubt, Whitaker was mentally the tougher fighter.
Check that, maybe not an edge to Camacho, more like a clear pickem fight!
Whitaker could be aggressive though. You can't tell me he wasn't aggressive against the likes of Roger Mayweather, Jorge Paez, Buddy McGirt, Diosbeyls Hurtado, Felix Trinidad. If he saw he was getting outboxed by Camacho, I think there's no doubt he'd try and get nasty and scrap with Camacho.