How would Ali have done with solid fundamentals?

[Bokaj]

Let's say that Cassius Clay gets a trainer that manages to take him by the scruff of the neck and make him fight using solid fundametals, but still express his individual style. To make him into a flamboyant technician, not very unlike Leonard, Whitaker or Walcott.

How would that have affected his career? Would he have avoided any of the losses he suffered? Would he have won any of the close ones more comfortably?

Your opinions please.

[ironchamp]

It would have blunted his performances.

Zora Folley had mentioned that Ali was a difficult fighter to prepare for because there was no one like him. (paraphrasing)

Ali's unorthodox style allowed him to leverage his athleticism and use his size to its fullest potential. I can't imagine him faring any better by fighting in a more conventional style.

[Bokaj]

It would have blunted his performances.

Zora Folley had mentioned that Ali was a difficult fighter to prepare for because there was no one like him. (paraphrasing)

Ali's unorthodox style allowed him to leverage his athleticism and use his size to its fullest potential. I can't imagine him faring any better by fighting in a more conventional style.

You have a point. I think that in a way was why unorthodox fighters often were troublesome for him, because his own unorthodoxy was to a point negated.

I do feel that better fundamentals would have served him well in FOTC, though. And, to a lesser degree, against Norton.

[Longhhorn71]

Mildenberger because he was a southpaw, and awkward did well against Clay
(of course he eventually lost).

[Bokaj]

Mildenberger because he was a southpaw, and awkward did well against Clay
(of course he eventually lost).

He wasn't huge trouble (Ali won just about every round and had him down in the 6:th) but he posed some trouble. Norton, of course, was a handful to say the least. Ali clearly didn't like awkward fighters.

[META5]

He wasn't huge trouble (Ali won just about every round and had him down in the 6:th) but he posed some trouble. Norton, of course, was a handful to say the least. Ali clearly didn't like awkward fighters.

In their second fight, when Ali is actually in decent shape, Norton rarely troubled Ali until Ali came down off his toes. When Ali was giving him the movement and using his jab, he was by far, IMO, the ring general and the boss of the action.

These initial five or so round indicate to me that a prime Ali, with the legs, the reflexes, handspeed and better co-ordination doesn't have as hard of a time with Norton as people make out.

[Unforgiven]

In their second fight, when Ali is actually in decent shape, Norton rarely troubled Ali until Ali came down off his toes. When Ali was giving him the movement and using his jab, he was by far, IMO, the ring general and the boss of the action.

These initial five or so round indicate to me that a prime Ali, with the legs, the reflexes, handspeed and better co-ordination doesn't have as hard of a time with Norton as people make out.

Ali was missing with almost all his jabs in the early rounds against Norton in their second fight. He was throwing so many and missing with almost all of them it was almost comical. He neutralised Norton but really didn't do much scoring himself, despite what the commentators might say. Norton blocked most of the flurries and most of the jabs just flat-out missed.
Even if you judge Ali to have won the first four rounds it's not a strong blueprint, since Norton was a strong patient stalker over 12 and 15 rounds and wasn't hurt at all in those early rounds. And even a prime Ali was fighting on the ropes at times against guys like Chuvalo and Mildenberger.

[Bokaj]

Ali was missing with almost all his jabs in the early rounds against Norton in their second fight. He was throwing so many and missing with almost all of them it was almost comical. He neutralised Norton but really didn't do much scoring himself, despite what the commentators might say. Norton blocked most of the flurries and most of the jabs just flat-out missed.
Even if you judge Ali to have won the first four rounds it's not a strong blueprint, since Norton was a strong patient stalker over 12 and 15 rounds and wasn't hurt at all in those early rounds. And even a prime Ali was fighting on the ropes at times against guys like Chuvalo and Mildenberger.

Yes, Ali was missing a lot, and that's why I think that even a prime Ali would have trouble with Norton.

[META5]

Ali was missing with almost all his jabs in the early rounds against Norton in their second fight. He was throwing so many and missing with almost all of them it was almost comical. He neutralised Norton but really didn't do much scoring himself, despite what the commentators might say. Norton blocked most of the flurries and most of the jabs just flat-out missed.
Even if you judge Ali to have won the first four rounds it's not a strong blueprint, since Norton was a strong patient stalker over 12 and 15 rounds and wasn't hurt at all in those early rounds. And even a prime Ali was fighting on the ropes at times against guys like Chuvalo and Mildenberger.

He was missing with a lot of his jabs, but the most important aspect of this was that he did score with some and like you said, Norton was neutralised.

The prime Ali's jab was not only quicker, but thrown with more conviction, more sustained, not as flicking as the one that he displayed here. Additionally, and, perhaps, more pertinently, the right hand followed the jab much better. His footwork also allowed him to create punching angles that he didn't in his latter years.

I submit that against Chuvalo, Ali chose to go to the ropes many a time to disprove the notion that he couldn't take punishment, which is why he 'allows' George to throw to the body so much. With Mildenberger, he coasted and eventually solved a shorter, tricky southpaw fighter.

Now, of course the first 5 or so rounds of the 2nd Norton aren't an exact blueprint ... but from them I can extrapolate that Ali's movement made it more difficult for Norton to get off with his own attack and then with the difference in the quality of the jab and follow work, that Norton would have a harder time timing him ... he didn't have the jab to the body or lead left hook with the associated prime footwork to deal with, he didn't have the head and hand fakes along with the associated prime footwork to deal with ... this is most significant, when one consisders that Ali used this to confuse fighters as to when the right hand was going to drop.

I'm not saying that Ali will coast with Norton as Norton executed the style to a tee and the style would always take advantage of Ali's numerous technical flaws ... but that in his prime, with his athleticism, better stamina and available arsenal, he wouldn't struggle as much as some would have you believe ... I think he wins a best of 3 by a clear 2-1, 9 - 6 ish, 10 - 5 ish even, with a lot of debate over close rounds during the series.

[Unforgiven]

He was missing with a lot of his jabs, but the most important aspect of this was that he did score with some and like you said, Norton was neutralised.

The prime Ali's jab was not only quicker, but thrown with more conviction, more sustained, not as flicking as the one that he displayed here. Additionally, and, perhaps, more pertinently, the right hand followed the jab much better. His footwork also allowed him to create punching angles that he didn't in his latter years.

I submit that against Chuvalo, Ali chose to go to the ropes many a time to disprove the notion that he couldn't take punishment, which is why he 'allows' George to throw to the body so much. With Mildenberger, he coasted and eventually solved a shorter, tricky southpaw fighter.

Now, of course the first 5 or so rounds of the 2nd Norton aren't an exact blueprint ... but from them I can extrapolate that Ali's movement made it more difficult for Norton to get off with his own attack and then with the difference in the quality of the jab and follow work, that Norton would have a harder time timing him ... he didn't have the jab to the body or lead left hook with the associated prime footwork to deal with, he didn't have the head and hand fakes along with the associated prime footwork to deal with ... this is most significant, when one consisders that Ali used this to confuse fighters as to when the right hand was going to drop.

I'm not saying that Ali will coast with Norton as Norton executed the style to a tee and the style would always take advantage of Ali's numerous technical flaws ... but that in his prime, with his athleticism, better stamina and available arsenal, he wouldn't struggle as much as some would have you believe ... I think he wins a best of 3 by a clear 2-1, 9 - 6 ish, 10 - 5 ish even, with a lot of debate over close rounds during the series.

:good

That's a fair guess.
I cant say for sure how Norton would do with a 1964 - '67 Ali either, but I guess we're in agreement if I say he'd probably be a lot more competitive than Patterson, Terrell and Liston (who quit).

[META5]

:good

That's a fair guess.
I cant say for sure how Norton would do with a 1964 - '67 Ali either, but I guess we're in agreement if I say he'd probably be a lot more competitive than Patterson, Terrell and Liston (who quit).

Norton and Frazier would always give him the more trouble ... just based on styles. I do think that prime Ali deals with Norton 'better' than Frazier, but still see a prime Ali winning a best of series against either fighter.

[groove]

if you wanna see ali peak jab watch the 60s fights liston 1, patterson, folley i think round 5 everyone lands. norton was always trouble for ali cuz of his crouch back defence. they were both counter punchers. ali had trouble finding his punching range v norton but 2nd fight when he dances for the first half of the fight he looks good. he probably was in his best shape ever since the 60s for the the norton rematch.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali had trouble with pressure fighter with Stamina...He could dance or rope a dope the big slow guys with less stamina(Liston and Foreman) guys like Jimmy Young,Jersey Joe Walcott, even Tunney could handle those guys...Pressure fighter like Doug Jones,Norton,Frazier,Cooper ( a chaser vs Ali) gave Ali trouble....and the guys that could finish strong...not too many to chose from...Frazier,Louis,Marciano,(Dempsey? young version)....Norton was a nightmare for Ali because of his pressure and Ali's lack of a real KO punch...Norton also was well conditioned and could fight 15 but we all know when he got in there with someone with KO POP, he had style problems. I think Ali had many of the fundermentals in place but could drop his hands because of his quick reflexes ( sometimes he paid for this) Still others that tried to emulate Ali with the lean back style( Howard Davis Jr.) for one paid for it in there career. Nobody is perfect and to a certain degree but less severe Ali had 2 careers ( like Foreman) but the difference is Ali came back to tougher opposition but gave up a bit of mobility for strength....Ali had BIG flaws ( open to LEFT hook) (Lean back style) If they could have been correct they would have helped him but some fighters drop they left to set a trap and that is where reflexes are important...Ali had a great lead right ( this can be a NO-NO at times but it worked for him for the most part...We dont know however if against the elite of the pressure fighters with power and stamina, Louis, Marciano, Young Dempsey...whose weaknesses would have been exposed

[groove]

cooper gave ali trouble. except for the knock down ali had no trouble with cooper in 2 one sided fights - ali clowned waiting for the 5th and got caught but 5th round he demolishes cooper (remember his prediction!). norton was not a pressure fighter. frazier was a great fighter. period. you saying ali is the only fighter who would have trouble with frazier. frazier was the best pressure fighter ever in the heavyweight division.

We dont know however if against the elite of the pressure fighters with power and stamina, Louis, Marciano, Young Dempsey...whose weaknesses would have been exposedHe'd make them all look as slow as liston. he even made patterson look slow. louis is the only fighter you named that has any chance v liston nevermind ali. frazier was in a different league as a pressure fighter. he was quick and non-stop. he was no slow shuffling joe louis.

[Bummy Davis]

cooper gave ali trouble. except for the knock down ali had no trouble with cooper in 2 one sided fights - ali clowned waiting for the 5th and got caught but 5th round he demolishes cooper (remember his prediction!). norton was not a pressure fighter. frazier was a great fighter. period. you saying ali is the only fighter who would have trouble with frazier. frazier was the best pressure fighter ever in the heavyweight division.

He'd make them all look as slow as liston. he even made patterson look slow. louis is the only fighter you named that has any chance v liston nevermind ali. frazier was in a different league as a pressure fighter. he was quick and non-stop. he was no slow shuffling joe louis.



Joe Frazier made the statement that Ali could never beat Louis or Marciano....Joe said Ali could never rope a dope Marciano and Louis ( call him slow shuffling) had the fastest power punching combo ever....

Ali handled 188lb Cooper for the most part but that left hook almost changed history...Frazier changed it in Ali/Frazier 1.....I could not be so Naive to believe Louis ( who had several versions of a hook and right hands as well would not present a more serious challenge to Ali and also Marciano with his 2 fisted attack and super stamina work rate would not give Ali Frazier like pressure....These are Elite fighters....Frazier said he was prime in Ali 1 and went down hill from there but that he still beat Ali at both mens best version.....Fraziers top 4 rating are

1) Joe Louis
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Joe Frazier
4) Ali

[rabid dog]

It seems to me that he had them

[Bokaj]

It seems to me that he had them

No he did some things wrong. He corrected them to a degree later on, but they were especially clear to see in FOTC.

[Bokaj]

Joe Frazier made the statement that Ali could never beat Louis or Marciano....Joe said Ali could never rope a dope Marciano and Louis ( call him slow shuffling) had the fastest power punching combo ever....

Ali handled 188lb Cooper for the most part but that left hook almost changed history...Frazier changed it in Ali/Frazier 1.....I could not be so Naive to believe Louis ( who had several versions of a hook and right hands as well would not present a more serious challenge to Ali and also Marciano with his 2 fisted attack and super stamina work rate would not give Ali Frazier like pressure....These are Elite fighters....Frazier said he was prime in Ali 1 and went down hill from there but that he still beat Ali at both mens best version.....Fraziers top 4 rating are

1) Joe Louis
2) Rocky Marciano
3) Joe Frazier
4) Ali

This is actually a bad post. Taking what Frazier said, who hates Ali's guts with a vengeance, for face value... Waste of characters.

[groove]

60s ali never rope-a-doped - did he rope-a-dope against Jones, Cooper etc NO he didn't. fact - frazier never fought a peak 60s ali but a comeback version who had struggled against Bonavena in his previous fight - 66 Ali woulda been much harder fight for frazier. frazier was the best non-stop heavyweight pressure fighter ever. he would do well v louis - he would have no time to set up those big punches - stationary targets are easy to put away but fast moving ones like ali and frazier are not unless your a monster hitter like foreman.

[Ted Spoon]

Nope, you can't do that; this is boxing not mathematics.

Fighters are not equations that you can add higher values to. Ali made what he had work to the best degree. That is all you can say.

His whole game plan was about drawing you in with the low hands, getting you to lead. Give him high hands and there you have a totally different fighter who works off different principles.

[Bokaj]

Nope, you can't do that; this is boxing not mathematics.

Fighters are not equations that you can add higher values to. Ali made what he had work to the best degree. That is all you can say.

His whole game plan was about drawing you in with the low hands, getting you to lead. Give him high hands and there you have a totally different fighter who works off different principles.

Even a fundamentally sound fighter can use a low guard at times to suck the opponent in for the counter. Sure, an Ali using sound fundamentals would be a different fighter to a degree, but the question is how that fighter would do.

Actually, if you look at Alli in Manilla, he's clearly more fundamentally sound than in FOTC. If he wasn't he would have lost. Without a doubt.

[Ted Spoon]

Even a fundamentally sound fighter can use a low guard at times to suck the opponent in for the counter. Sure, an Ali using sound fundamentals would be a different fighter to a degree, but the question is how that fighter would do.

Actually, if you look at Alli in Manilla, he's clearly more fundamentally sound than in FOTC. If he wasn't he would have lost. Without a doubt.

Indeed he was, but that was part of Ali's greatness; his ability to adapt.

Ali was forced to put his hands up when a stiffer body got rushed to the ropes and the leaning was not as responsive. It was to accommodate for his loss of speed rather than demonstrate another layer of his game.

It's just about impossible to theorize how Ali would have done with solid fundamentals i.e. does he nullify Frazier's hook? If so does he pummel him? Your guess is as good as Ted Spoons.

[Bokaj]

Indeed he was, but that was part of Ali's greatness; his ability to adapt.

Ali was forced to put his hands up when a stiffer body got rushed to the ropes and the leaning was not as responsive. It was to accommodate for his loss of speed rather than demonstrate another layer of his game.

True. But in FOTC he had lost some of his speed, but still fought as he had done four years earlier. He hadn't adapted yet.

It's just about impossible to theorize how Ali would have done with solid fundamentals i.e. does he nullify Frazier's hook? If so does he pummel him? Your guess is as good as Ted Spoons.

But I want Ted Spoons' guess.

[Ted Spoon]

True. But in FOTC he had lost some of his speed, but still fought as he had done four years earlier. He hadn't adapted yet.

Ali did not know how to fight Frazier first time.

He thought he would get him out of there within the first six rounds; consequently bit off more than he could chew, ended up slowing down & suffering.

Ali did not have the necessary fire-power, so he did the best he could with Frazier by trying to smother him up close. Ali did not fight well in the pocket, acquiring a better fundamental defence against Frazier would promote bad habits of engaging the problem when it needed to be diffused.

Ali was better served trying to simmer Frazier through heart and sly tactics rather than getting close and threading needles. Frazier was better dealt with in spurts.

Had Ali been taught a good right-hand parry, Norton may have been dealt with much better. Ali had the better jab, but he often found it difficult to jab with Norton. A good parry and Ali may have smoothed Norton over good in the second and third fights.

[Bokaj]

Ali did not know how to fight Frazier first time.

He thought he would get him out of there within the first six rounds; consequently bit off more than he could chew, ended up slowing down & suffering.

Ali did not have the necessary fire-power, so he did the best he could with Frazier by trying to smother him up close. Ali did not fight well in the pocket, acquiring a better fundamental defence against Frazier would promote bad habits of engaging the problem when it needed to be diffused.

Ali was better served trying to simmer Frazier through heart and sly tactics rather than getting close and threading needles. Frazier was better dealt with in spurts.

But in Manilla he did just this by using better fundamentals. Instead of leaning back with hands low when standing against the ropes (like he did in FOTC), he leaned towards Frazier more, with high guard, in Manilla. He also traded with Frazier in spurts, quite succesfully actually. In short he showed a much more mature inside game, and therefore didn't get hit cleanly as much as he did in FOTC.

Had Ali been taught a good right-hand parry, Norton may have been dealt with much better. Ali had the better jab, but he often found it difficult to jab with Norton. A good parry and Ali may have smoothed Norton over good in the second and third fights.

True. That he negleted the very basic blocking of jabs with the right is nigh embarassing actually. It isn't hard to do.

[Ted Spoon]

But in Manilla he did just this by using better fundamentals. Instead of leaning back with hands low when standing against the ropes (like he did in FOTC), he leaned towards Frazier more, with high guard, in Manilla. He also traded with Frazier in spurts, quite succesfully actually. In short he showed a much more mature inside game, and therefore didn't get hit cleanly as much as he did in FOTC.

It's tough to summarize for as much as Ali had learnt defensively, Frazier had considerably diminished offensively.

[Bokaj]

It's tough to summarize for as much as Ali had learnt defensively, Frazier had considerably diminished offensively.

He was physically diminished, yes, but not technically. Actually I think he had improved his use of the right, which he showed in the rematch against Quarry.

[Bummy Davis]

It's tough to summarize for as much as Ali had learnt defensively, Frazier had considerably diminished offensively.



Frazier was not the same fighter as he was for Ali 1.....Frazier DID diminish and could not get his body in that condition again ( short Prime Joe)

[Bummy Davis]

Even a fundamentally sound fighter can use a low guard at times to suck the opponent in for the counter. Sure, an Ali using sound fundamentals would be a different fighter to a degree, but the question is how that fighter would do.

Actually, if you look at Alli in Manilla, he's clearly more fundamentally sound than in FOTC. If he wasn't he would have lost. Without a doubt.


NO, NO, Ali was not more sound, Frazier diminished greatly....The Frazier of fight 1, different guy..even a blind man could see that

[ChrisPontius]

Ali did have solid fundamentals. They were just not on the same level as his other attributes. But as someone else said, some people just have alternating styles that work for them. Archie Moore wanted to train Ali (this was before they fought), but he found him to be too stubborn and incooperative. I guess it was just not meant to be.

[Bokaj]

Ali did have solid fundamentals. They were just not on the same level as his other attributes. But as someone else said, some people just have alternating styles that work for them. Archie Moore wanted to train Ali (this was before they fought), but he found him to be too stubborn and incooperative. I guess it was just not meant to be.

That's way I've said "using - or fighting with - solid fundamentals" instead of "having". Because, of course, anyone who's been boxing since 12 must know how to block a jab.

But still, if Moore had managed to come to grips with Ali and making him fight fundamentally sound, would it have changed anything?

[Bokaj]

NO, NO, Ali was not more sound, Frazier diminished greatly....The Frazier of fight 1, different guy..even a blind man could see that

Frazier was diminished (but not greatly) and Ali was more sound. Watch the fights.

A "greatly diminished" fighter doesn't participate in the HW title fight with the highest ouput ever, and he doesn't take the punishment Frazier took.

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier was diminished (but not greatly) and Ali was more sound. Watch the fights.

A "greatly diminished" fighter doesn't participate in the HW title fight with the highest ouput ever, and he doesn't take the punishment Frazier took.


I watched the fights neither man was as good as the 1st fight but Frazier really diminished...It is evident in his body tone and muscular structure as well as his timing....Frazier went down hill from fight 1

[Bokaj]

I watched the fights neither man was as good as the 1st fight but Frazier really diminished...It is evident in his body tone and muscular structure as well as his timing....Frazier went down hill from fight 1

Neither man's muscle tone was the same, as for Frazier's timing I've never seen any obvious difference. He was slower in Manilla, though.

Just to be clear, Frazier was better in FOTC, but I don't see a truly vast difference.

But my main point was that Ali fights smarter and technically more sound in Manilla. If he hadn't I believe he would have lost.

[mcvey]

Let's say that Cassius Clay gets a trainer that manages to take him by the scruff of the neck and make him fight using solid fundametals, but still express his individual style. To make him into a flamboyant technician, not very unlike Leonard, Whitaker or Walcott.

How would that have affected his career? Would he have avoided any of the losses he suffered? Would he have won any of the close ones more comfortably?

Your opinions please.
Angelo Dundee said that in a couple of fights he got Ali to hold his hands higher [the Jones fight is an example],but it hampered him ,so he told Ali to forget about it.

[Bokaj]

Angelo Dundee said that in a couple of fights he got Ali to hold his hands higher [the Jones fight is an example],but it hampered him ,so he told Ali to forget about it.

Ok. Thanks for the information. This was probably true when Ali's legs were still great. Actually, he got away with it often later on as well. Not against Frazier, though.

Why he almost never bothered to block the jab with his right is beyond me, though.

[META5]

Ok. Thanks for the information. This was probably true when Ali's legs were still great. Actually, he got away with it often later on as well. Not against Frazier, though.

Why he almost never bothered to block the jab with his right is beyond me, though.

Because in his prime, he either danced back out of range, slipped the jab or did the pull counter.

When he came back, his reflexes still quick, but not the leg speed to 'safely' continue the pulling back of the head, especially against someone like Frazier, who threw that sweeping hook to land on the jaw, when the head is pulled back, or a Norton who was patient and threw when Ali gave him an offensive opportunity to capitalise on.

Actually, Ali can be seen parrying the jab, he parries jabs and punches to the body and head in the 1st Liston, in addition to ducking, weaving and slipping ... he always had the ability to competently do so, but not the inclination. Showman versus technician ... slipping and pulling looks more athletically talented, which suited his personality to a tee ... blocking, parrying and countering is much more textbook and I'm sure that we can agree that Ali was from another textbook.

[Bokaj]

Because in his prime, he either danced back out of range, slipped the jab or did the pull counter.

When he came back, his reflexes still quick, but not the leg speed to 'safely' continue the pulling back of the head, especially against someone like Frazier, who threw that sweeping hook to land on the jaw, when the head is pulled back, or a Norton who was patient and threw when Ali gave him an offensive opportunity to capitalise on.

Actually, Ali can be seen parrying the jab, he parries jabs and punches to the body and head in the 1st Liston, in addition to ducking, weaving and slipping ... he always had the ability to competently do so, but not the inclination. Showman versus technician ... slipping and pulling looks more athletically talented, which suited his personality to a tee ... blocking, parrying and countering is much more textbook and I'm sure that we can agree that Ali was from another textbook.

I agree with this. But in some fights (Norton I, Bob Foster) he unnecissarily invites trouble just by not using the simple blocking of a jab and countering with his own. But in a way that's what made him special - and infuriating at the same time.

[META5]

I agree with this. But in some fights (Norton I, Bob Foster) he unnecissarily invites trouble just by not using the simple blocking of a jab and countering with his own. But in a way that's what made him special - and infuriating at the same time.

Yes ... special and infuriating.

In Foster, he just simply tries to walk through him and at times seems to totally abandon defence ... it was just stupid to take some of the punches he took, but hey ... he won the fight and got cut for it ... he got what he deserved to get, I guess.

[Mendoza]

Let's say that Cassius Clay gets a trainer that manages to take him by the scruff of the neck and make him fight using solid fundametals, but still express his individual style. To make him into a flamboyant technician, not very unlike Leonard, Whitaker or Walcott.

How would that have affected his career? Would he have avoided any of the losses he suffered? Would he have won any of the close ones more comfortably?

Your opinions please.

Hard to say. Ali had a style all his own. Sometimes is is best not to change what makes a fighter great.

I do think Ali could have added a body attack, and uppercut to his game. A better hook would have been nice too.

Not sure if changing his guard in the middle of the ring would help Ali, since he felt comfortable keeping his hand low to rapid fire. Some fighters punch faster going up.

[Bokaj]

Hard to say. Ali had a style all his own. Sometimes is is best not to change what makes a fighter great.

I do think Ali could have added a body attack, and uppercut to his game. A better hook would have been nice too.

Not sure if changing his guard in the middle of the ring would help Ali, since he felt comfortable keeping his hand low to rapid fire. Some fighters punch faster going up.

With the style Ali used he didn't have much use of body shots, hooks and uppercuts. However, I would have liked him to mix his game more and stay in the pocket from time to time. Then of course he would have had more use for these tools.

There are rare moments when he stays in the pocket, though. Off the top of my head I would name rd 9 in the rematch with Norton and rd 6 in the rematch with Quarry. In those moments he looks good doing it too. He also had quite a few moments of effective punching on the inside in Manilla.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Dundee said Clay could not learn any of the standard, or would not. And at 6 foot 3 he was tall the time, with a very long reach.

And yes, had Clay known how to do and practiced standard, he could have added much to his game. Like lateral movement.

Someone mentioned Frazier having a better right in Manilla....IMO compaired to what he had early, he was still a one armed fighter.

Early when he could see with his right eye, he had a fine right hand...and I'd never knew until after Frazier retired what happened to his good right hand that he had for say Buster Mathis... And Bonivania.