Close Calls - What Fighters Resumes...

[Russell]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?

[GPater11093]

chavez wouldnt have taht amazing streak

[TBooze]

Peter Buckley has another 40 wins to his record, if the hometown decisions were reversed.

Ali losing to Norton (fight three), Shavers or Young makes little difference IMO, but Ali (Clay) losing to Jones may of put an interesting spin on things.

Bowe dropping the Tubbs fight, perhaps sets up Holyfield/Ruddock or Holyfield/Lewis in late 92.

Arguello decisioning Fernandez probably sets up a Duran fight, and it may of even led to The Hands of Stone making one final Lightweight defence.

[Duodenum]

Marciano/LaStarza I comes to mind right away. I understand that LaStarza has always maintained he won that initial meeting. If Marciano had not decked him in that one, boxing history would have changed that night.

[TBooze]

Marciano/LaStarza I comes to mind right away. I understand that LaStarza has always maintained he won that initial meeting. If Marciano had not decked him in that one, boxing history would have changed that night.

If New York had not had that silly supplementary points system in, history would of been different. An undefeated record with one draw, just does not look so pretty, and you do no get so much kudos, eh Ricardo.;)

[Duodenum]

If New York had not had that silly supplementary points system in, history would of been different. An undefeated record with one draw, just does not look so pretty, and you do no get so much kudos, eh Ricardo.;)Got that right!;)

[p.Townend]

Marciano/LaStarza I comes to mind right away. I understand that LaStarza has always maintained he won that initial meeting. If Marciano had not decked him in that one, boxing history would have changed that night.
Read about that fight a few years ago.By all accounts Lastarza was a very good fighter an d pushed Marciano very hard.

[quintonjacksonfan]

What if Hagler got the decisions against Antufurmo,Watts,and Leonard?
He would of finished his career at 66-1-1

[My2Sense]

Emile Griffith and Kid Gavilan both had a lot of close calls in their careers, going either way.

Gavilan was actually on the wrong end of most close decisions in his career, but he got the benefit of the doubt in some of his most important fights (ie: Graham, Basilio).

[My2Sense]

Ike Quartey would've ended up with wins over DeLaHoya and Forrest.

Robin Reid would've beaten Calzaghe and Ottke when both were the two top super-middles in the world - and if that had happened, neither Calzaghe nor Ottke would've been able to retire with unbeaten records.

Speaking of Ottke, he had a number of decisions that could've easily gone the other way.

Going back in time, Kid Chocolate would've had Tony Canzoneri and Battling Battalino on his resume (and their titles) if his close decisions losses to them had gone his way.

Henry Armstrong would've been a five-division champion had he not been robbed in the rematch with Garcia.

[Cachibatches]

If Harry Greb would have gotten the decisons most felt he desreved over Tiger Flowers...

[Russell]

Marcos Villasana would be a hell of a lot more remembered then he is today, among other things.

He was flat out robbed against against Esparragoza. A draw my ass, talk about wanting to keep the title on the champion.

If he was given the decision there he would have won the WBA title on top of the WBC belt he picked up when he beat Hodkinson.

Give him the MD verdict he got agianst Azumah Nelson as well and we're talking about him being held in fairly high regard as opposed to the nearly forgotten fighter he is.

[mcvey]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?
Some people thought the FOTC was close,[ I didnt think it was particularly close], but if Frazier had lost it he would have been 5- 0 against the 2 ATG's he fought, that would have hurt his standing imo.
I dont really count Ali's fights after Manila he was essentially done by then imo.So he had close ones with Young and Norton ,possibly Shavers too ,so what ? By then he was about 70% of what he had been, and they were top rated guys,,it would have been no disgrace either way imo.

[Russell]

I don't hold the Spink's, Berbick or Holmes fights in absolutely any esteem. But I feel even as of Shaver's he had something left, obviously. He was seconds away from stopping Shaver's after being hit by the hardest heavyweight banger of all time after 45 minutes of fighting in the 15th.

Shit, he showed he had something left against Berbick, at that age if he wasn't dying because of thyroid medication, if you want to really nitpick.

[McGrain]

If Micheal Watson had got the nod in his razor thin confrontation with Eubank in I, he probably wouldn't have been terribly wounded in II.

[mcvey]

I don't hold the Spink's, Berbick or Holmes fights in absolutely any esteem. But I feel even as of Shaver's he had something left, obviously. He was seconds away from stopping Shaver's after being hit by the hardest heavyweight banger of all time after 45 minutes of fighting in the 15th.

Shit, he showed he had something left against Berbick, at that age if he wasn't dying because of thyroid medication, if you want to really nitpick.
I thought he looked pathetic against Berbick, he didnt win a round on my card, he pushed his right and was outmuscled all night.that was a 40 year old man called Muhammad Ali,If you want to see the "Greatest",I would suggest the Williams fight would be a good start,but then, maybe you had to be around then.
" Father time caught up with me,in my younger days I wouldnt have had any trouble.But I just couldnt do what I wanted to do"
"Do you think your skills may have gone "?
"Its not may have gone ,they HAVE gone"!

[Bokaj]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?

If Holmes had those losses he would suffer greatly. I don't think Ali's legacy would have been to badly affected by close points losses after Manilla. Looking at it, it's impressive in a way that he managed to make them so close.

But if he had lost to Jones or the rematch to Norton, now that's another kettle of fish entirely. Sure, he had the wins to make up for it a bit, but it would mean he had a losing record against Norton.

[Duodenum]

If Harry Greb would have gotten the decisons most felt he desreved over Tiger Flowers...Grantland Rice felt that Greb deserved the decision in Tunney II, Gene's only official win in their series. If Harry had gone up 2-0 against Tunney, he or Wills might have gotten the shot which Gene dethroned Dempsey with.

[Russell]

I thought he looked pathetic against Berbick, he didnt win a round on my card, he pushed his right and was outmuscled all night.that was a 40 year old man called Muhammad Ali,If you want to see the "Greatest",I would suggest the Williams fight would be a good start,but then, maybe you had to be around then.
" Father time caught up with me,in my younger days I wouldnt have had any trouble.But I just couldnt do what I wanted to do"
"Do you think your skills may have gone "?
"Its not may have gone ,they HAVE gone"!

More then one poster here actually scored the Berbick fight as being fairly close. :think

[mcvey]

More then one poster here actually scored the Berbick fight as being fairly close. :think
Watch the fight ,then tell me it was fairly close or that Ali held his own . If you do ,I wont waste any further time on you,at my age I count my time as precious.

[Flea Man]

If Morales has beaten David Diaz, we might've seen Pac-Morales 4, or, if trying to go for new ground, may have seen Pac vs. Casamayor, or Pac vs. Nate Campbell.

Hatton's career would be completely different had he lost the decision to Collazo.

Would Hagler have retired after Leonard or would he have carried on? He was dwindling, so who could he have faced next?

In terms of ATG standing, if Calzaghe had lost the decision against Hopkins, he would've been eked out in a really boring match by an 'old man'. Hop might never have got the fight with Pavlik and would probably have had a big pay day and retired after rematching Jones. Calzaghe wouldn't have a leg to stand on in most people's eyes, or, he would have to fight a couple of top guys and try and reclaim what he wanted, high regard.

Such a close fight, in my eyes not a boring fight (I thought it was a chess match really, but a very scrappy one at that and I found it very intriguing) which could've went either way, Hop might not have wanted to keep fighting after that. I think he knew how much the scalp of Calzaghe was worth. After THAT loss to add to the Tyalor fights, Hopkins is now taking on even bigger challenges and trying to confirm his legacy (already cemented in my eyes)

God knows how Calzaghe would've reacted? Would he have rematched Hopkins? With a Win I think B-hop wouldn't have felt the need for a 2nd fight.

[Minotauro]

Emile Griffith had many many close calls make him lose to Luis Manuel Rodriguez 4 times at least once to Dick Tiger, he goes 0-3 aganist Benvenuti and then goes 0-2 aginst Archer. He would be regarded very differently.

Tiger Flowers with a win most felt he should have gotten over Walker would push him up the middleweight ranking possibly having the two best wins over Greb and Walker.

[rekcutnevets]

What if Winky Wright got the verdicts over Simon and Vargas?

[OBCboxer]

What if Frazier won the second Ali fight? People say that was close. He would own two wins over Ali. There probably wouldn't have been a third fight as Ali might not ever get a shot at the title for a while. He would have losses to Frazier 2x and Norton.

Bernard Hopkins: How about wins over Taylor 2x and Calzaghe. He would only have two losses.

What if Calzaghe lost hos 0 to Robin Reid?

How about if Marciano lost to LaStarza.

[FromWithin]

If Morales has beaten David Diaz, we might've seen Pac-Morales 4, or, if trying to go for new ground, may have seen Pac vs. Casamayor, or Pac vs. Nate Campbell.

Hatton's career would be completely different had he lost the decision to Collazo.

Would Hagler have retired after Leonard or would he have carried on? He was dwindling, so who could he have faced next?

In terms of ATG standing, if Calzaghe had lost the decision against Hopkins, he would've been eked out in a really boring match by an 'old man'. Hop might never have got the fight with Pavlik and would probably have had a big pay day and retired after rematching Jones. Calzaghe wouldn't have a leg to stand on in most people's eyes, or, he would have to fight a couple of top guys and try and reclaim what he wanted, high regard.

Such a close fight, in my eyes not a boring fight (I thought it was a chess match really, but a very scrappy one at that and I found it very intriguing) which could've went either way, Hop might not have wanted to keep fighting after that. I think he knew how much the scalp of Calzaghe was worth. After THAT loss to add to the Tyalor fights, Hopkins is now taking on even bigger challenges and trying to confirm his legacy (already cemented in my eyes)

God knows how Calzaghe would've reacted? Would he have rematched Hopkins? With a Win I think B-hop wouldn't have felt the need for a 2nd fight.

I think Calzaghe would have retired, disgusted by the loss. I'm pretty sure Hopkins does not give him a rematch, and instead fights Jones, winning by a very wide decision, maybe stopping him. And maybe a final fight against Taylor, try to erase all his "L", imagine if he won that, his standing would've been really really good.

[FromWithin]

What if Frazier won the second Ali fight? People say that was close. He would own two wins over Ali. There probably wouldn't have been a third fight as Ali might not ever get a shot at the title for a while. He would have losses to Frazier 2x and Norton.

Bernard Hopkins: How about wins over Taylor 2x and Calzaghe. He would only have two losses.

What if Calzaghe lost hos 0 to Robin Reid?

How about if Marciano lost to LaStarza.

Hopkins moves up and beats Calzaghe, moves up again against Tarver who is still at the top, beats him in the same way, and a final showdown against Jones, like I said wide ud or stoppage. :admin

[AnthonyJ74]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?

Holmes' reign after his close fight with Witherspoon wasn't all that special at all. All Holmes did was basically put his title on ice and avoid the more dangerous guys around in favor of easier paydays and fights. I don't think Holmes' opponents past Witherspoon contributed much to his legacy and/or all-time ranking, other than just padding his record with more title defenses, which looks good on paper.

[AnthonyJ74]

I thought he looked pathetic against Berbick, he didnt win a round on my card, he pushed his right and was outmuscled all night.that was a 40 year old man called Muhammad Ali,If you want to see the "Greatest",I would suggest the Williams fight would be a good start,but then, maybe you had to be around then.
" Father time caught up with me,in my younger days I wouldnt have had any trouble.But I just couldnt do what I wanted to do"
"Do you think your skills may have gone "?
"Its not may have gone ,they HAVE gone"!

I was amazed at how weak Ali was against Berbick. His punches had absolutely no steam on them, and just like you said, he pushed his right hand, and I thought his left jab looked like a wet noodle. Berbick just beat him with superior strength and workrate.

[la-califa]

IfTapia didn't get jobbed by Ayala...TWICE!! He would have fought a showdown with Barrera while he was still in his prime.

[mcvey]

I was amazed at how weak Ali was against Berbick. His punches had absolutely no steam on them, and just like you said, he pushed his right hand, and I thought his left jab looked like a wet noodle. Berbick just beat him with superior strength and workrate.

Im glad some one knows what they are looking at. Russell says" against Berbick, Ali showed that he still had something left".

What would that be I wonder? A pulse?

[ThinBlack]

Ken Norton vs Jimmy Young.

[TommyV]

If Micheal Watson had got the nod in his razor thin confrontation with Eubank in I, he probably wouldn't have been terribly wounded in II.

True. Hearing that sort of thing is heart breaking.

[alexvoce]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?

also ali frazier 2 if ali wasnt allowed to hold and frazier 3 if fraziers trainer didnt throw in the towel would have showed ali for the fraud he was...

[TBooze]

True. Hearing that sort of thing is heart breaking.

Either way, the first fight was close enough to have a rematch, so unfortunately we probably end up with the same scenario.

Fate is a bitch, and Watson's cornermen have a lot to answer for, for letting their man out for the twelve round...

As did some of crowd, who made the job of stretchering out Watson a lot harder. I know, I was there and saw these horrific scenes, that shamed the sport in my country.

[TBooze]

also ali frazier 2 if ali wasnt allowed to hold and frazier 3 if fraziers trainer didnt throw in the towel would have showed ali for the fraud he was...

Eddie Futch was an incredible man for the sport, a man who had balls and bravery to pull his fighter out, because he knew he was done.

If not, well who knows what might of happened, eh Michael Watson?

[Bokaj]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Robinson yet. He had quite many close fights. The wins against Bell, Basilio and Gavilan was close as was several of his wins against LaMotta. Then he also had close calls against several lesser fighters. If all these were made losses his career would have looked very different.

If Louis had lost to Godoy and Farr he'd have two losses to average fighters (in the greater scheme of things) smack in the middle of his prime. Don't think a loss to Walcott would have changed much, though, as many already treat this as a de facto loss.

[Meast]

What about Duran vs Commacho I and II.

I've heard a few people say Duran deserved the nod.

[Gesta]

What about Duran vs Commacho I and II.

I've heard a few people say Duran deserved the nod.

I have sen one, cannot remember which one, but I had Commacho winning.

[Mr Butt]

I was amazed at how weak Ali was against Berbick. His punches had absolutely no steam on them, and just like you said, he pushed his right hand, and I thought his left jab looked like a wet noodle. Berbick just beat him with superior strength and workrate.

i totally agree, i saw this fight years ago and i have no wish to watch it again i thought Ali was a sad pathetic sight and lost by a mile

[Flea Man]

If Micheal Watson had got the nod in his razor thin confrontation with Eubank in I, he probably wouldn't have been terribly wounded in II.

I'VE always felt this way.

[Mr Butt]

herol grahams resume would of been better if he had got the decision over mCcallum

the second bramble mancini fight was a close call as well

[ricardoparker93]

chavez wouldnt have taht amazing streak

What fight are you referring to? The Whitaker draw obviously was a gift but I don't think the Lockridge or Laporte fights are very close really.

[PowerPuncher]

If Hopkins got the decisons over Taylor/Calzaghe he'd be unbeaten in 17years

[Stevie G]

And historic standings would suffer, or benefit the most, from having their close fights go the other way?

Imagine Larry Holmes with losses to Witherspoon, Maurice Harris, Carl Williams and Ken Norton? Would his current standing as ATG even be intact if that was the case?

His title reign would have been stopped far sooner then it was by Witherspoon.

What if Ali had losses to Young, another Norton loss, and a loss to Shaver's? Would his status as a great be more assured then Holmes despite the extra losses?
Losing to Harris or Williams,especially the former,would have made no difference to Holmes' legacy,as the consensus would be that he'd have convincingly beaten them in prime. The losses to Norton (in Larry's prime) and Witherspoon (just after his prime) would have made a difference. same with Muhammad re the Young and Shavers fights. Most of us would have,with great justification,said that if those fights had occured just two/threeyears earlier then Ali would have licked them convincingly.

[Stevie G]

Peter Buckley has another 40 wins to his record, if the hometown decisions were reversed.

Ali losing to Norton (fight three), Shavers or Young makes little difference IMO, but Ali (Clay) losing to Jones may of put an interesting spin on things.

Bowe dropping the Tubbs fight, perhaps sets up Holyfield/Ruddock or Holyfield/Lewis in late 92.

Arguello decisioning Fernandez probably sets up a Duran fight, and it may of even led to The Hands of Stone making one final Lightweight defence.
Imo,Ali losing to Jones would only have knocked his legacy,and boxing history off course for a short time. There'd have been a quick rematch and Cassius (as was) would have taken care of business,then resumed his campaign for his fight with Sonny Liston.

[Stevie G]

If Micheal Watson had got the nod in his razor thin confrontation with Eubank in I, he probably wouldn't have been terribly wounded in II.
Very true ! Michael would then have had a rematch with Nigel Benn,instead of Eubank.

[Zopilote]

Had Marquez gotten the decision over Pacquiao in their 2nd fight, there would probably be a rubbermatch.

[Wiirdo]

James Toney, wow he would have looked terrible if all his close decisions went against him. Losses to Reggie Johnson, Dave Tiberi, Mike McCallum at least twice, Terry McGroom, Rahman and Fres Oquendo completely destroy his resume.

B-Hop's resume would be absolutely amazing if he was given the Taylor and Calzaghe fights. I mean it would leap him above Monzon and Hagler in the middlweight rankings.

[Meast]

I have sen one, cannot remember which one, but I had Commacho winning.

Cool.

I don't really have any intention to watch them, I've heard a few people say they scored it for Duran but it was close.

Still....not a bad effort for a old man!

[Stevie G]

Ken Norton vs Jimmy Young.
Jimmy would have been awarde the WBC crown,as Norton did,and defended it against Larry Holmes.

[El Bujia]

James Toney, wow he would have looked terrible if all his close decisions went against him. Losses to Reggie Johnson, Dave Tiberi, Mike McCallum at least twice, Terry McGroom, Rahman and Fres Oquendo completely destroy his resume.

B-Hop's resume would be absolutely amazing if he was given the Taylor and Calzaghe fights. I mean it would leap him above Monzon and Hagler in the middlweight rankings.A win over Jermain Taylor would leap him over Hagler or Monzon? I think not.

[Stevie G]

also ali frazier 2 if ali wasnt allowed to hold and frazier 3 if fraziers trainer didnt throw in the towel would have showed ali for the fraud he was...
Eddie Futch did the right thing by throwing in the towel. Frazier would have got slaughtered if he'd come out for the last round. He even admitted to Futch that he could n't time Ali's right hand. Both men were dehydrated in that heat,and who knows ? Frazier may have literally been killed in that ring. To say that Ali was a fraud after both guys performed as they did in that fight,is an out and out insult. Even an Ali hater can't deny that he had as much balls as Frazier,and that my friend,is a lot !

[Wiirdo]

A win over Jermain Taylor would leap him over Hagler or Monzon? I think not.

Well the Calzaghe win just might.