Muhammad Ali - Into The Mid 80's....

[Russell]

A potentially strange (to some) what if scenario prompted by me being surprised that Ali's last fight against Berbick took place in almost 82'. Even at 236 pounds he looked very respectable after 14 months of inactivity.

Lets say Ali avoids some of his extremely hard late career fights that may have hastened his health issues, like the Shaver's and Holmes fights, maybe even Frazier III.

As far as I know a Ali comebacks were being talked about well into the mid 80's.

I'm not saying Ali would rule the division, but cut out some of his most taxing, damaging fights and how long could he have fought on? How does he fare against embryo versions of many 80's up and coming 80's fighters?

What's the most he could accomplish fighting on until the mid 80's if his health wasn't deteriorating as quickly as it was because of the absence of a few of his most difficult fights?

[SteveO]

It really all depends on what sort of shape he was really in and how fast he deteriorated.

[Russell]

I think the end of his career is somewhat misleading. Thyroid medication making it so he couldn't even sweat against Holmes, a ATG heavyweight in his prime who would have troubled Ali at any stage in his career...

Against simply good fighters like Berbick he looked very good even overweight after 14 months of inactivity.

So I'm wondering how far he could have stretched things out if he hadn't eaten dozens of Shaver's bombs and what not. Basically played it a bit safer and went on for a little longer.

[flamengo]

Tough one... Ali had a great disrespect for most oponents, and remained willing to absorb severe punishment from the vast majority of those he faught in the 70's, purely for the sake of being a stubborn egotist. Take away FOTC, THRILLA for example, a little more of Ali would be left in the early 80's. A decision over Berbick may have opened the door for Holmes II, yet I doubt Ali would have gotten past Holmes at all, especially in the early 80's.

[HomicideHenry]

I remember talks of Ali supposedly coming back to fight Tim Witherspoon in the mid 80's.

Still, he would be 38-40 years old? I dont think he could pull it off. Lets say he did avoid alot of the bigger fights, would he still have burnt out and gotten the Parkinson's? Its hard to say...I just cant envision Ali at 38-40 years old beating capable boxers like Dokes, Witherspoon, Holmes, Coetzee, Berbick and the like.

He'd still get his ass handed to him, just not as bad.

[mr. magoo]

Ali developed Parkinson's syndrome which according to experts, is not caused by head trauma. I'm not saying that taking all of those punches helped matters, but one has to wonder.

Had he not become ill, I have little or no doubt that the Greatest would have continued his career for as long as his body would permit. He loved boxing along with the fame and fortune that came along with it. Probably the most painful part about leaving the sport was not the illness or the final beatings that he took from Holmes and Berbick, but the dreadful thought that he would no longer be the center of attention. For a man like Muhammad Ali this is worse than death. Had he been healthy enough to continue, I could see him winning fights against men like Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb, Marty Monroe, James Tillis, and perhaps even capture an alpha title against one of the lesser acheivers. Of course his sites would have always been aimed at the top dog in the division, but even if he couldn't be #1, I'm sure he'd settle for being a close second.

[Arka]

Ali developed Parkinson's syndrome which according to experts, is not caused by head trauma. I'm not saying that taking all of those punches helped matters, but one has to wonder.

Had he not become ill, I have little or no doubt that the Greatest would have continued his career for as long as his body would permit. He loved boxing along with the fame and fortune that came along with it. Probably the most painful part about leaving the sport was not the illness or the final beatings that he took from Holmes and Berbick, but the dreadful thought that he would no longer be the center of attention. For a man like Muhammad Ali this is worse than death. Had he been healthy enough to continue, I could see him winning fights against men like Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb, Marty Monroe, James Tillis, and perhaps even capture an alpha title against one of the lesser acheivers. Of course his sites would have always been aimed at the top dog in the division, but even if he couldn't be #1, I'm sure he'd settle for being a close second.

You're confusing Parkinson's disease with Parkinson's syndrome.
IMO the hole in his head was almost certainly due to blows he took in the ring.

[Bokaj]

You're confusing Parkinson's disease with Parkinson's syndrome.
IMO the hole in his head was almost certainly due to blows he took in the ring.

He has Parkinson's syndrome, not Parkinson's disease.

[Bokaj]

Ali developed Parkinson's syndrome which according to experts, is not caused by head trauma. I'm not saying that taking all of those punches helped matters, but one has to wonder.

Had he not become ill, I have little or no doubt that the Greatest would have continued his career for as long as his body would permit. He loved boxing along with the fame and fortune that came along with it. Probably the most painful part about leaving the sport was not the illness or the final beatings that he took from Holmes and Berbick, but the dreadful thought that he would no longer be the center of attention. For a man like Muhammad Ali this is worse than death. Had he been healthy enough to continue, I could see him winning fights against men like Scott Ledoux, Tex Cobb, Marty Monroe, James Tillis, and perhaps even capture an alpha title against one of the lesser acheivers. Of course his sites would have always been aimed at the top dog in the division, but even if he couldn't be #1, I'm sure he'd settle for being a close second.

Good post.

[Shake]

Ali always has a little more wiggle room for getting into a fight than others due to his inhuman durability. His ring guile and while slowed still above-average handspeed could make him competitive in a lot of fights he wouldn't necessarily have a great chance of winning. He'd have a lot of close decision losses, I think.

[Arka]

He has Parkinson's syndrome, not Parkinson's disease.

Exactly.

Parkinson's syndrome after closed head injury ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

"A 36 year old man, who sustained a skull fracture in 1984, was unconscious for 24 hours,
and developed signs of Parkinson's syndrome 6 weeks after the injury."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]'s+syndrome+as+a+component+of+post-traumatic+encephalopathy+in+boxer&source=bl&ots=E9albX8zvp&sig=ANa4zdYOLrbN5y67oN3VsR-ykEw&hl=en&ei=-NWfSff9B9G3tweku8iTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
pg 220
"Head Trauma
Parkison's syndrome as a component of post traumatic ecephalopathy in professional boxers and National Hunt steeplechase jockeys
is well recognized, and a striatal variant of dementia pugilistica is also acknowledged."

[My dinner with Conteh]

You're confusing Parkinson's disease with Parkinson's syndrome.
IMO the hole in his head was almost certainly due to blows he took in the ring.


Ali was starting to sound punchy as early as 1977.

[Robbi]

Ali was starting to sound punchy as early as 1977.

Yeah. I posted a video on here before the Spinks rematch and he looked stoned when being interviewed by Cosell.

[ChrisPontius]

Ali was starting to sound punchy as early as 1977.

I think even in 1976, during some interview after the Manilla fight, you could see him slow down, and not because of maturing.

[mr. magoo]

Exactly.

Parkinson's syndrome after closed head injury ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

"A 36 year old man, who sustained a skull fracture in 1984, was unconscious for 24 hours,
and developed signs of Parkinson's syndrome 6 weeks after the injury."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]'s+syndrome+as+a+component+of+post-traumatic+encephalopathy+in+boxer&source=bl&ots=E9albX8zvp&sig=ANa4zdYOLrbN5y67oN3VsR-ykEw&hl=en&ei=-NWfSff9B9G3tweku8iTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
pg 220
"Head Trauma
Parkison's syndrome as a component of post traumatic ecephalopathy in professional boxers and National Hunt steeplechase jockeys
is well recognized, and a striatal variant of dementia pugilistica is also acknowledged."


Apparently I stand corrected then.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali fought a little too long and guys like Page and Dokes had speed as well as power, he was lucky he fought Holmes and Berbick and Spinks, they were not really hard punchers (and I think Holmes wanted to stop Ali but not kill him) Ali did not have the ability to move and run and could not really rope a dope.....Guys like Coetzee,Page,and Dokes may have put a real hurting on him, although Coetzee was far less skilled the power would be a hard thing for Ali to overcome and could have gotten hurt

[Dempsey1238]

This is the part when Ali becomes GOD, when they say a near 40 year old Ali, beating the likes of Page, Berbick and others.

Hell he could not even get past Berbick, and he was in better shape there, than he was vs Holmes.

[mr. magoo]

This is the part when Ali becomes GOD, when they say a near 40 year old Ali, beating the likes of Page, Berdick and others.

Hell he could not even get past Berdick, and he was in better shape there, than he was vs Holmes.


I think that when some say they would pick a 40 year old Ali to beat Berbick or Page, they generally mean for conversation purposes, in the event he was healthy

[Dempsey1238]

I dont see it even if he was in good health. Speed gone, reflex's gone, He would be like today's Roy Jones Jr, with a chin. Sure he get out pointed, and not knock out. But I cant see Ali even in good health pull that off.
Only very few fighters pull what a Archie Moore or George Foreman or even a Hopkins did.

Louis, Dempsey, Jeff, Sullivan, ete all face defeat once they started hitting there 30's to late 30's. I dont think Ali would pull back the clock here.

[Longhhorn71]

When I left the closed circuit fight site.....after the Foreman-Ali fight, I told myself:
"Ali won the battle....but lost the war".

After the FOTC and Foreman-Ali....you could see what his "defense" was going to be in the future.

[TBooze]

A potentially strange (to some) what if scenario prompted by me being surprised that Ali's last fight against Berbick took place in almost 82'. Even at 236 pounds he looked very respectable after 14 months of inactivity.

Lets say Ali avoids some of his extremely hard late career fights that may have hastened his health issues, like the Shaver's and Holmes fights, maybe even Frazier III.

As far as I know a Ali comebacks were being talked about well into the mid 80's.

I'm not saying Ali would rule the division, but cut out some of his most taxing, damaging fights and how long could he have fought on? How does he fare against embryo versions of many 80's up and coming 80's fighters?

What's the most he could accomplish fighting on until the mid 80's if his health wasn't deteriorating as quickly as it was because of the absence of a few of his most difficult fights?


You are a sick, sick pup Russell, to even have the thought!

I know there was still Ali comeback spin in 86 (Ali seen helping Whitherspoon train against Bruno), but come on!!!!!

[groove]

Ali had the start of parkinsons as far back as the late 70s - a reason why Ferdie Pacheco left the team after the Shavers fight - he knew something was very wrong but not what it was. He was diagnosed with Parkinsons later but he shouldn't have been fighting against holmes or berbick.

[AnthonyJ74]

Ali looked horrible against Berbick - clumsy, uncoordinated, no power. I'm sure he was sick already, but damn, that was a stinker of a fight. Ali should have quit after Spinks II........