Roy Jones - Discussion And What If's

[Russell]

I know it's been discussed before but really thinking about it at length, it's amazing. I really do think Roy had the potential to become a top 15 ATG fighter or so.

Roy Jones has had a long career and he maintained a extreme level of ability throughout the large majority of it, in a career that spanned several weight divisions. And the talent that was in said weight divisions during that time was pretty deep. From nearly a JMW all the way to HW.

A few years into his career during an interview he mentioned fighting Terry Norris. Imagine a catch weight fight with Jones demolishing Norris, or even Jones dropping to JMW for a single fight? That would have been a unfathomably easy night for Jones, and actually given him a quality win before Castro/Hopkin's. He wasted the first few years of his career just like he wasted his time at LHW.

I don't think Darius Michalczewski would have been a much harder nights work for Jones then Hill was. And it would have added actual depth to his resume at around that time as opposed to his fights against the likes of Frazier and Telesco.

He should have stayed at HW. Even if he was sparked cold it would have done no harm in comparison to what being sparked down at LHW by Tarver. He would have been seen to of simply gone too high and losing valiantly instead of what did occur.

Wins over Byrd? A ancient Holyfield? Orlin Norris? A old and chubby Moorer?

All possible.

People talk about Calzaghe wasting his talent and time...

[Rebel-INS]

Jones obviously had a ridiculous amount of talent, but like you say he wasted the majority of it.
While I rate his ability and think he would give a lot of other ATG's around his weight a nightmare, I think his resume is extremely lacking.

[PowerPuncher]

He could have done so much more, but people rag on modern day greats for who they don't fight and ignore who Sugar Ray Robinson and many old time greats didn't face. Robinson didn't go anywhere near the murderers row who had many of the top fighters of his time, yet it doesn't affect his standing, Armstrong didnt face many top blk fighters of his time, no questions of him either.

Its worth noting on his rise to prominence not too many champs wanted to give RJJ a shot, Eubanks for 1 wasn't keen on the fight

[Rebel-INS]

He could have done so much more, but people rag on modern day greats for who they don't fight and ignore who Sugar Ray Robinson and many old time greats didn't face. Robinson didn't go anywhere near the murderers row who had many of the top fighters of his time, yet it doesn't affect his standing, Armstrong didnt face many top blk fighters of his time, no questions of him either.

Its worth noting on his rise to prominence not too many champs wanted to give RJJ a shot, Eubanks for 1 wasn't keen on the fight

Yes he probably was dodged quite a bit (and with reason), but that doesn't change the fact he didn't fight a lot of the top fighters of his time.

[TommyV]

I know it's been discussed before but really thinking about it at length, it's amazing. I really do think Roy had the potential to become a top 15 ATG fighter or so.

Considering I rank him as a top 20 ATG or so, I think it's entirely possible. The guy in his prime was something else. If you can't be hit, and have speed and power and athleticism like that, there's nothing to stop you being a top 15 ATG. I just think he made some poor career decisions at times.

Roy Jones has had a long career and he maintained a extreme level of ability throughout the large majority of it, in a career that spanned several weight divisions. And the talent that was in said weight divisions during that time was pretty deep. From nearly a JMW all the way to HW.

Absolutely. Remarkable considering his whole career was pretty much built around his handspeed and reflexes. You'd think that for a fighter like that, he wouldn't still be around at 40 being able to beat most guys in his division. Just shows his athleticism, and his talent that he could go from 160 to heavyweight and be a success.

A few years into his career during an interview he mentioned fighting Terry Norris. Imagine a catch weight fight with Jones demolishing Norris, or even Jones dropping to JMW for a single fight? That would have been a unfathomably easy night for Jones, and actually given him a quality win before Castro/Hopkin's. He wasted the first few years of his career just like he wasted his time at LHW.

If Jones could of made 154 comfortable, or Norris would of gone up to 160 or like you say maybe a catchweight - something like 158 - then I'd agree it would be a short nights work for Jones. I rate Norris, but there's no way he could handle Jones' combination of speed and power, he might of finished the job in the 1st round if he pounced on him straight away.

I don't think Darius Michalczewski would have been a much harder nights work for Jones then Hill was. And it would have added actual depth to his resume at around that time as opposed to his fights against the likes of Frazier and Telesco.

I agree. Hill was a very good fighter at LHW, and Jones dispatched of him comfortably in the end. I would of certainly added depth to his resume at light-heavy, given that he might of held all 4 belts at the same time AND been the Ring & Linear champion aswell. I think even though Michalczewski was a very good fighter, Jones would of been able to cope with his aggressive style. I take Jones by UD.

He should have stayed at HW. Even if he was sparked cold it would have done no harm in comparison to what being sparked down at LHW by Tarver. He would have been seen to of simply gone too high and losing valiantly instead of what did occur.

I absolutely agree. Even if he got knocked out, people would command him for moving up to heavyweight and staying there, the fact he's started at 160 and was probably nothing more than a natural 168, yet moved up to take on the biggest guys in boxing. Instead, like you said, his reputation has been tarnished with Tarver and Johnson defeats. This is what I was talking about earlier when I mentioned 'poor career choices'. I think he should of stayed at heavy, or certainly not have put on 18lbs of solid muscle and then should it off to go back to 175 just 8 months later and take on a big puncher like Antonio Tarver.

Wins over Byrd? A ancient Holyfield? Orlin Norris? A old and chubby Moorer?

All possible.

People talk about Calzaghe wasting his talent and time...

All possible yes, and it his resume and accomplishments would look outstanding had he stayed at heavyweight and notched up a winning run, rather than gone up and then come back down again and taste 2 knock defeats.

[PowerPuncher]

Yes he probably was dodged quite a bit (and with reason), but that doesn't change the fact he didn't fight a lot of the top fighters of his time.

SRR was the RJJ of his day, is he not top10 P4P too?

Robinson didnt face Charles Burley (best other WW-MW of his time), Holman Williams (1 of the best LW-MW of his time), Cocoa Kid, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore (they actually discussed this after Moore was LHW champ but pulled out), Lloyd Marshall, Booker, Wade, Chase, Cerdan (who died but they could have got it on before that).

[Rebel-INS]

SRR was the RJJ of his day, is he not top10 P4P too?

Robinson didnt face Charles Burley (best other WW-MW of his time), Holman Williams (1 of the best LW-MW of his time), Cocoa Kid, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore (they actually discussed this after Moore was LHW champ but pulled out), Lloyd Marshall, Booker, Wade, Chase, Cerdan (who died but they could have got it on before that).


Ray Robinsons CV is still head and shoulders above Jones'.

[jc]

COulda woulda shoulda.

Every fighter can say the same thing. Roy jones is a great with or without Michelzeski, Benn or Byrd.

Who he didnt beat doesnt take away from who he beat and how easy he made it all look. Id put him in the top 15 anyway.

[Rebel-INS]

COulda woulda shoulda.

Every fighter can say the same thing. Roy jones is a great with or without Michelzeski, Benn or Byrd.

Who he didnt beat doesnt take away from who he beat and how easy he made it all look. Id put him in the top 15 anyway.

Top 15? Don't be so fucking simple.

[jc]

Stick him in ya misreble sod!:tong

[Rebel-INS]

Stick him in ya misreble sod!:tong

Don't get me wrong, Jones was a fantastic talent. I just don't think he showed us anywhere near what he could've been.

[PowerPuncher]

Ray Robinsons CV is still head and shoulders above Jones'.

Hopkins and Toney are arguably better than anyone Ray beat for a start

[FromWithin]

Hopkins and Toney are arguably better than anyone Ray beat for a start


:patsch

[teeto]

Hopkins and Toney are arguably better than anyone Ray beat for a start
Maybe, but Gavilan Fulmer Lamotta 5 times and Turpin alone top Jones' best wins.

[Sweet Pea]

Hopkins and Toney are arguably better than anyone Ray beat for a start

No. But thanks for playing.

[teeto]

I feel bad for saying maybe now, seen how bad you guys have come down on PowerPuncher and all! Anyway, you know i was in the right place.

[FromWithin]

Ray Robinson at his peak was 128-1-2 with his only loss avenged 5 times and he also beat 10 hall of famers Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basili. Saying that he ducked Moore and Charles at HW is a bit like saying that Jones ducked Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko at heavyweight...

It's true that many fighters were scared of Jones but wins over Calzaghe, Michalczewski, Hopkins II, Holyfield before Toney, Chris Byrd would have helped his legacy a lot...

[PowerPuncher]

Ray Robinson at his peak was 128-1-2 with his only loss avenged 5 times and he also beat 10 hall of famers Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basili. Saying that he ducked Moore and Charles at HW is a bit like saying that Jones ducked Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko at heavyweight...

It's true that many fighters were scared of Jones but wins over Calzaghe, Michalczewski, Hopkins II, Holyfield before Toney, Chris Byrd would have helped his legacy a lot...

Learn the history of Robinsons time, he didn't duck heavyweights, he 'ducked'/avoided welterweights, middleweights and light heavyweights in the divisions he fought.

None of the fighters he fought were in the league of Burley. He also didn't face the murderers row, most as good or better than anyone he faced

[teeto]

None of the fighters he fought were in the league of Burley.
No.

[FromWithin]

Learn the history of Robinsons time, he didn't duck heavyweights, he 'ducked'/avoided welterweights, middleweights and light heavyweights in the divisions he fought.

None of the fighters he fought were in the league of Burley. He also didn't face the murderers row, most as good or better than anyone he faced

Ok, Jones weighed 190 for the Ruiz fights : from 160 to 190 there is 30 pounds. from 147 to 175 there is 28 pounds. So Robinson ducking Charles, Moore and others LHW's is almost equivalent to Jones ducking Lewis and Klitschko. And Robinson beat more good fighters than Jones did, so just by there he is far better pound for pound than Jones. Jones top 3 wins are Hopkins, Toney and Ruiz. Ruiz is there because he was WBA champion, but Toney also beat him, and Ruiz is not an elite heavyweight even if he's better than people give him credit for..

[PowerPuncher]

Maybe, but Gavilan Fulmer Lamotta 5 times and Turpin alone top Jones' best wins.

Great fighters BUT

Lamotta was the leftover of Williams/Marshall, 2 fighters SRR didnt face, and neither as good as Burley or particularly better than any other murderers row fighter Robinson avoided

Galivan lost 9 times within the 3year period he faced Robinson

Turpin was only proven on the European circuit

Fullmer - quality but a little but of a limited skillset

[FromWithin]

PowerPuncher what is your point? Are you trying to prove that Jones was greater than Robinson?

[teeto]

Im sorry, but if you are serious im not going to try and justify my reasoning for why you are wrong.

[teeto]

That was to you sorry PP, i never quoted.

[PowerPuncher]

Ok, Jones weighed 190 for the Ruiz fights : from 160 to 190 there is 30 pounds. from 147 to 175 there is 28 pounds. So Robinson ducking Charles, Moore and others LHW's is almost equivalent to Jones ducking Lewis and Klitschko. And Robinson beat more good fighters than Jones did, so just by there he is far better pound for pound than Jones. Jones top 3 wins are Hopkins, Toney and Ruiz. Ruiz is there because he was WBA champion, but Toney also beat him, and Ruiz is not an elite heavyweight even if he's better than people give him credit for..

The point is Robinson ducked Welterweights, 147lbers, not 175lbers, not HWs BUT 147lbers and 160lbers, Robinson could easily be called a cherry picker by those who level the same insult at Jones and Mayweather

Expecting him to face Charles is a stretch, but after he lost to Maxim and Moore beat Maxim there was talk of a Moore fight and they did actually have discussions

And the main point is Robinsons resume isn't the best P4P, many have better resumes and wins than Robinson, Robinson maybe the best P4P but it certainly isnt on resume. So if Robinson can be P4P no1, Jones can easily be P4P top10

[PowerPuncher]

Im sorry, but if you are serious im not going to try and justify my reasoning for why you are wrong.

SRR is my P4P no1 BUT hes not beyond reproach and his competition isn't as great as its made out.

[teeto]

SRR is my P4P no1 BUT hes not beyond reproach and his competition isn't as great as its made out.
No1s saying he is beyond reproach, i just think that the reasons you used in taking from what are some of his best wins are very bad.

[Sweet Pea]

PowerPuncher making an ass of himself has become almost cliche'd.

[McGrain]

Jones is a phenomenon. Like Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford and Mike Tyson before him, he had absolutely unique talent. P4p #1 contendership was a possibility for him IMO.

I do have concerns about his chin, though, and I don't rate him as highly head to head as many others. I think anyone who could punch and had the skill to catch him flush would beat him. But he may have been aged for those brutal KO's (see Tiger getting dropped by a Griffith jab).

[McGrain]

PowerPuncher making an ass of himself has become almost cliche'd.

:lol:

I like his posts, they always have a twisted logic.

See that jacket in your avatar? Would you wear it?

[FromWithin]

Jones is a phenomenon. Like Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford and Mike Tyson before him, he had absolutely unique talent. P4p #1 contendership was a possibility for him IMO.

I do have concerns about his chin, though, and I don't rate him as highly head to head as many others. I think anyone who could punch and had the skill to catch him flush would beat him. But he may have been aged for those brutal KO's (see Tiger getting dropped by a Griffith jab).

I think that Jones had a better Chin than he is given credit for (there was a little vid on youtube about it, don't know if it's still there)

[McGrain]

I think that Jones had a better Chin than he is given credit for (there was a little vid on youtube about it, don't know if it's still there)

It is still there (have it in one of my playlists), and there is a lot of hysteria surrounding his chin.

But ATG punchers using ATG skills to land, would stop him for me.

[FromWithin]

It is still there (have it in one of my playlists), and there is a lot of hysteria surrounding his chin.

But ATG punchers using ATG skills to land, would stop him for me.

Yes, true he is still a marvelous fighter head-to-head but I pick guys like Spinks to knock him out cold

[Rebel-INS]

:lol:

I like his posts, they always have a twisted logic.

See that jacket in your avatar? Would you wear it?

I'd rather wear this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

Oh, I don't dount that.

[Rebel-INS]

Oh, I don't dount that.

:lol: touche.

[McGrain]

It's the gloves that make it.

[Rebel-INS]

It's the gloves that make it.

Definitely, without the gloves he'd look such a fool.