George Chuvalo - how good was he?

[Maxmomer]

I just watched some of his fights on Youtube. Whenever Chuvalo is brought up it's always in reference to his chin and toughness, his best qualities as a fighter, but how good would you say he was all things considered? He has some wins over some decent fighters and he gave some very good fighters a rough time. He was holding his own against Frazier before the cut, he damaged Ali badly to the body in their first fight and took him the distance twice, and he lost a razor thin decision to Floyd Patterson. Apparently he KO'd Jerry Quarry but some people call this a fluke, why? Thoughts?

[Bill1234]

He was a very good fighter, but he was obviously strong as an ox, and could take a crowbar to the jaw and stay up, but he just didn't have the skill of guys like Ali, Patterson and Frazier, nor the power of Foreman. Even if the fight wasn't very close, if you fought him, you knew you were in a fight.

[mr. magoo]

I think Chuvalo had very good skills both offensively and defensively. He knew all the tricks in the book for staying alive when he was in trouble and had boxing ability that I would personally rate as well above average. I would have liked to have seen he and Quarry have a rematch as the first fight seemed a bit uncharacteristic of Jerry, but it was a good win for George nonetheless.

[janitor]

I also think that he was more refined than he is often given credit for.

[Senya13]

Both the film and the contemporary reports reveal him a brawler with very poor skills. Wishful thinking, kind of like people claiming Max Baer had some skills.

[janitor]

Both the film and the contemporary reports reveal him a brawler with very poor skills. Wishful thinking, kind of like people claiming Max Baer had some skills.

You are mistaken.

If you ever meet George Chuvalo and ask him questions about boxing technique you will see that he is verry knowledgable.

[Senya13]

Mistaken about what? On what I can see on film (people like to claim Sam Peter is unskilled, but he's a class above Chuvalo skillwise)? Or on what contemporary writers wrote about him?

[Russell]

Chuvalo has a extremely high KO ratio. Surprised when I actually saw that it was as high as it is.

And he really didn't hit that hard. Combination of respectable power with aggression I guess.

[mr. magoo]

Mistaken about what? On what I can see on film (people like to claim Sam Peter is unskilled, but he's a class above Chuvalo skillwise)? Or on what contemporary writers wrote about him?

There are contemporary writers of every era who like to place the current crop under the microscrope and pick them apart with ridicule and criticism. In Ali's day there were plenty who called him a dancing loud mouth who bark was bigger than his bite. People say the same thing About Klitschko now. Nat Fleischer tore Joe Louis and many of his peers apart too.. At some point you have to look at things in more than just one perspective.

[Senya13]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.

[CottoDaBodykill]

this dude blocked punches with his face lol ...skill?
stop please ..your just attempting to come off as intellegent by saying something different then the norm ..

[Bill1234]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.

He was far from a crude slugger without defence. His hands were always up, and he didn't provide much area to hit cleanly. A crude slugger is Tex Cobb, not George Chuvalo.

[CottoDaBodykill]

show me videos of said fighter showing skills

[Bummy Davis]

George was a strong tough guy. He was in the ring with a lot of great fighters, Ali,Foreman,Frazier. George was pretty slow and easy to hit and could be outboxed but he went to the body well on Ali and he made the fight interesting....Chuvalo was one of the strongest fighters ever, solid legs and body (built a lot like a shorter Maskaev but Olegs chin was not of same calibur. He was 6" even and weighed about 225 lbs he had some good wins but not Champion material

[Senya13]

Hands up, not much area to hit? What film are you watching? Is that why he was called by contemporary writers a punching target for skilled boxers? Just because you get low and rush inside in order to punch to the body, doesn't mean your head is protected, see Dempsey-Tunney either fight. You can pick up almost any fight that lasted at least several rounds, which wasn't against some tomato cans, and you will surely find in fight reports that Chuvalo was so good at absorbing punishment in order to land his own, and him claiming in post-fight interview he wasn't hurt by any punches and similar stuff. Early in his career he wasn't even a good infighter, but as he gained experience that part of his arsenal gradually improved, but only the ability to get inside and pound away, not his defense. His mid and long-range punching consisted of wild, very slow swings that could be seen a minute before he even desides to throw them.

[Maxmomer]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.

I've seen him utilize effective head movement and a good, high guard. He had a good, long jab against Quarry, he also used his jab to decent effect against Foreman. In the Foreman fight he slipped Foreman's jab and countered with a hook to the body brilliantly early on. Watching some of the available footage he doesn't seem like just a crude, skill-less slugger. A brawler sure, and I'm not calling him a boxing wizard or anything close, but I think he may have been a bit more refined than given credit for.

[Longhhorn71]

If it had been Frazier in there with Ali on this night, instead of Chuvalo, Ali might have been beaten (1966).

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[My2Sense]

He was alright.

[groove]

Jim Brown said Ali was skipping training leading up to the Chuvalo fight. He came in at his heaviest weight ever in that 1966 fight. He underestimated him and learnt his lesson. Saying that he easily won 12 or more rounds outta 15. Some people think that was close and ali was struggling. Go figure. I suppose Ali was so great if he didn't win every round it was a bad performance. Like Mildenburger was close. KO'd. Cooper was tough. Ko'd in 5 as he predicted. It really is pathetic. Ali before exile had a KO most high percentage as any heavy in history.

[CottoDaBodykill]

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[mr. magoo]

If it had been Frazier in there with Ali on this night, instead of Chuvalo, Ali might have been beaten (1966).

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Good clips LH,

This crap about Chuvalo not having any skill isn't really being backed up here. One poster has already referred to him as a crude slugger with no knowledge of range fighting at any level. What I have always seen, is a fighter who is constantly protecting himself with a fairly well polished defense and who utilizes a good jab and strait right. He can also work the body pretty well too, and doesn't waste opportunities. Was the man the second coming of Sugar Ray Robinson? Hell no. But he holds the record for being the longest ranked heavyweight contender in history and no man can do that by just taking shots on the chin alone......

[Senya13]

You gotta check:
1) consistency (of showing certain skill)
2) effectiveness
Anybody can move their head once in a while or attempt to throw a jab. But if he's a punching bag that is missing wild slow swings from a distance 90% of time, to praise such fighter for skill is like praising Paris Hilton that she has her good moments, albeit very rare, in some movies and thus she's a fairly good actress.

[groove]

Maybe you missed this............

But he holds the record for being the longest ranked heavyweight contender in history and no man can do that by just taking shots on the chin alone......

[Senya13]

What's being meant by that, anyway, longest ranked? The time between first being ranked and last being ranked? Then George Foreman beat that by a mile. Being ranked for non-breaking period of time? But Chuvalo was ranked only from 1963 to 1966, and then on separate occasions in 68 and in 70, that's all. Just because somebody has made up some bullshit argument that doesn't hold any truth, doesn't mean I have to reply to each such claim.

[mr. magoo]

I love it when someone who refers to hall of fame contenders as journeyman calls me full of shit.......Classic.

[mr. magoo]

Senya13;3489260]What's being meant by that, anyway, longest ranked? The time between first being ranked and last being ranked?
Then George Foreman beat that by a mile. Being ranked for non-breaking period of time? But Chuvalo was ranked only from 1963 to 1966, and then on separate occasions in 68 and in 70, that's all. Just because somebody has made up some bullshit argument that doesn't hold any truth, doesn't mean I have to reply to each such claim.



So which contender was ranked longer Senya? George Foreman was a two time world champion, so I don't place him in the contender column. And what bullshit arguments have I made up?

[Maxmomer]

You gotta check:
1) consistency (of showing certain skill)
2) effectiveness
Anybody can move their head once in a while or attempt to throw a jab. But if he's a punching bag that is missing wild slow swings from a distance 90% of time, to praise such fighter for skill is like praising Paris Hilton that she has her good moments, albeit very rare, in some movies and thus she's a fairly good actress.

He landed his jab pretty often and not many of his punches were wild swings. You're making him sound like Luis Firpo.

[CzarKyle]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.

Maybe where you're from they train fighters to take on all types, but you can't be so critical. Rather, you should try to consider every available option. Chuvalo fought to his strengths. He was tough, so it makes sense to be a inside brawler. Most inside brawlers look rather crude, unless they have had some sort of technical pedigree in their training (kind of like Eddie Futch and Joe Frazier). Which I remember reading that Chuvalo was more of a self trained type of fighter that received more guidance from his experience rather then relying on a trainer.

You can be as critical as you want and sit from 'up on high' and say what made him so bad, but you're avoiding what you don't want to say. That he was somewhat effective in what he did. Ali used to call him "The Washerwoman" and Ali (then Cassius Clay) didn't want to take the risk in a fighter like Chuvalo*.

Maybe you should stop basing fighters on a perfect template. Look at styles rather then basing them on a theoretical template of what you think is a perfect boxer.

Also, as an added note, Chuvalo went on as a decent trainer for Canadian fighters in his area. The only 'popular' fighter I can think of (right now) that he trained was Razor Ruddock (who was almost as one dimentional as Chuvalo).

One more note; doesn't it make sense that since he is an inside brawler that he wouldn't have much knowledge of mid-range to long range fighting styles outside of his skill set? Where's your logic? That just leads me back to thinking you're always comparing a fighter to some perfect template that doesn't really exist OR it's based on a fighter you like so much that you think he's perfect.

*Later on he did take on Chuvalo.

Edit: Senya, nothing against you man. I'm starting to see a negative trend in your arguments. You're not considering outside options (or at least giving them respect), and the arguments spiral into silly battles of who's right and who's wrong (who cares? you're on the internet talking to who-the-fuck-knows). Of course you think you're right, and of course some of the posters you argue with aren't willing to give up ground in their position. You shouldn't get argumentative just because some people disagree with you.

[Senya13]

Stayed in top 10 longer than Chuvalo, without getting out of it? John Ruiz had been in top 10 for at least 314 weeks straight, probably longer, I'm missing some ratings. That's over 6 years.
Or between earliest and latest being in top 10 without being a champ? Wladimir Klitschko first got into top ten about 10 years ago if I recall correctly, but never was the Ring's champion. Chuvalo was first ranked around 1963, last ranked some time in 1971, I believe.

Singular for 'argument' - argument.
Plural for 'argument' - arguments.

Just because somebody has made up some bullshit argument
And what bullshit arguments have I made up?

So what is your question again?

[Senya13]

Tim Witherspoon - first ranked 1982, last ranked 1996 (#10 on Feb 1 ratings). Never the Ring's champion.

[HomicideHenry]

Alot of people said that Jerry Quarry was the best heavyweight to never win the title, I dont think that is so. In any other era, Chuvalo and Bonavena, would have raised hell and would have been the top two. Bonavena, I think, was better than Chuvalo, but thats just my own opinion, as I think he was robbed against Frazier in either the first or second encounter they had...a prime Chuvalo, however, I think would have given Frazier alot of problems.

[mr. magoo]

Tim Witherspoon - first ranked 1982, last ranked 1996 (#10 on Feb 1 ratings). Never the Ring's champion.


Witherspoon was a world champion not a contender and I won't buy the cop out response that he was only an alpha champ. Chuvalo was the longest ranked contender. Deal with it......


As for accusing others of fabricating bullshit argument(s), I would think twice about it before referring to hall of fame contenders as journeyman the way you have done so often in the past......

Polish up your boxing knowledge and come back later junior...


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[Senya13]

So you want to use Top 10 rating of the Ring, but the champion titles of other organizations? Andrew Golota was ranked in top 10 from at least 1996 until May 2005, and was never a world champion by any org.

[Senya13]

In any case, you can't just take the ratings of conteder from one org, but the champion title from another. Witherspoon was a top10 contender several years longer than Chuvalo. You can avoid the facts as long as you want, that won't change it that Chuvalo wasn't a heavyweight contender for the longest period in history.

[abraq]

I don't know what to make of this. Was Chuvalo really that bad? Remembering how he was, I certainly wouldn't say so.

Certainly, he wasn't the epitome of boxing skills. But as one poster commented, he fought in a particular style and learnt to use that style reasonably well. On top of that he had great strength and duarbility. This put him outside the bum club and into the contender/fringe contender category.

Chuvalo was one of those guys who mostly failed to beat the really good guys. The only exceptions are Doug Jones and Jerry Quarry (a controversial win). But he generally beat the bums, average and good (most of the time) fighters. Sometimes was beaten by them. Examples: Pat McMurtry, Robert Cleroux, Joe Erskine and Edourdo Corletti.

But the point is that while these guys would look like real misfits against the big names like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, etc., Chuvalo was never considered a misfit against these great fighters and actually could give them a pretty good fight. Every one knows about how he did in his fights against Ali. Against Frazier, he was giving a reasonable account of himself when he suffered a broken bone around one of his eyes. But aside from swelling on his face he didn't seem to be much affected by Frazier's punches and was getting in a few punches of his own. He also bulled Frazier around the ring. It is a pity the bone broke. Now I am not saying that he would have beaten Frazier. Surely the fight would have been stopped after a few more rounds due to the swelling on Chuvalo's face. But I also feel that it would have turned into a well contested affair till it was stopped. Against Foreman, Chuvalo did much better than Frazier. He took Foreman's punches quite well up to a point and was actually getting in a few punches of his own.

Overall, a very strong, slow, durable, detemined and moderately skilled fighter. Certainly not a bum.

[CzarKyle]

In any case, you can't just take the ratings of conteder from one org, but the champion title from another. Witherspoon was a top10 contender several years longer than Chuvalo. You can avoid the facts as long as you want, that won't change it that Chuvalo wasn't a heavyweight contender for the longest period in history.

Would you please take a break and look at yourself. Your rules have been just as arbitrary as some of the people you are arguing with.

Witherspoon won a title, once you hold a title, you negate your stance as a contender and become a champion of said organization. It holds in other organizations as well. As soon as you become a titlist you are exempt from other ranking lists. So, when Witherspoon won the title and held the WBA in 1986 he was exempt from other organizational rankings.

SO, in 1986 Tim Witherspoon held the WBA Heavyweight title for nearly a year. That means he was exempt from being labeled a contender on other organizations lists for the time that he held the WBA Heavyweight title in 1986. Streak broken.

[Senya13]

When Witherspoon won an ABC title, he didn't stop being just a mere top10 contender in the Ring magazine ratings. Larry Holmes remained the champion, until beaten by Michael Spinks, who was then beaten by Mike Tyson. Otherwise we'll end up with definition of top10 ranked contender as in ranked by any org, WBA, WBC, NABF, IBO, IBA, XYZ, ESB, etc.

[HomicideHenry]

You can avoid the facts as long as you want, that won't change it that Chuvalo wasn't a heavyweight contender for the longest period in history.

I disagree with this. Jem Mace was considered a contender from 1861-1890, hell he scored a draw with Mike Donavon in 1896 and a ND with Tommy Ryan in 1897. I think it was in 1888 when John L. Sullivan was doing tours in Europe he challenged Mace, but Mace refused, so Sullivan met Mitchell in France scoring a dubious 39 round draw, after Sullivan knocked Mitchell down over 35 times.

So, in essence, Mace was a contender for 29 years. Chuvalo was a contender from at least 1960-1972, that's only 12 years. Hell, Holyfield has stayed up as a contender longer than this.

[mr. magoo]

Would you please take a break and look at yourself. Your rules have been just as arbitrary as some of the people you are arguing with.

Witherspoon won a title, once you hold a title, you negate your stance as a contender and become a champion of said organization. It holds in other organizations as well. As soon as you become a titlist you are exempt from other ranking lists. So, when Witherspoon won the title and held the WBA in 1986 he was exempt from other organizational rankings.

SO, in 1986 Tim Witherspoon held the WBA Heavyweight title for nearly a year. That means he was exempt from being labeled a contender on other organizations lists for the time that he held the WBA Heavyweight title in 1986. Streak broken.


Exactly,

Witherspoon was a two time world titlist. This removes him from the category of contender that men like Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Langford, etc were in.. The only possible exception might be Langford given that he held the colored world title, but I suppose that's subject to individual opinion.

Chuvalo was the longest ranking heavyweight contender and the only exception Senya was able to provide was a single fighter who was a two time world titlist. If that's not grabbing for straws then I don't know what is. Additionally, Chuvalo was never floored in 93 pro fights, depsite fighting in the concencus toughest era in the sport.

Back to the topic of the thread.. Do I think Chuvalo was a sweet scientist? No. I merely feel that he was a man who had a reasonable level of skill and who was not just a crude slugger.........THREAD CLOSED.........

[CzarKyle]

When Witherspoon won an ABC title, he didn't stop being just a mere top10 contender in the Ring magazine ratings. Larry Holmes remained the champion, until beaten by Michael Spinks, who was then beaten by Mike Tyson. Otherwise we'll end up with definition of top10 ranked contender as in ranked by any org, WBA, WBC, NABF, IBO, IBA, XYZ, ESB, etc.

Okay, I get it, but you are using another arbitrary system to declare that Witherspoon was still being ranked. Just like I was using the arbitrary systems to prove you wrong. So that means The Ring rankings are what you place as a standard. Picking The Ring is almost just as bad as using WBA, WBC, or IBF. Not as bad, but almost as bad.

Now, Witherspoon has won the title twice so that means he's a former unlineal 2-time champion. He won a title, he's no longer a contender.

Wow, this is a ridiculous exercise in rhetoric.

[Senya13]

Mixing different orgs together is a last straw, indeed. Whenever we talk about "Ali beat N ranked opponents", we mean ranked in Top 10 by the Ring magazine, not as in ranked by WBA or WBC (or that number might double up). Does anybody have the Ring magazines from mid-1990's to check at what point exactly did Andrew Golota enter the top10 rankings?

Same as holding to a belief that Chuvalo was never floored. He was floored at least twice. I recall him slipping to the floor one more time in another fight (one of his NY fights), although the report didn't clarify whether it was from a punch or loss of balance/slip.

The only "consensus" about the toughest era in the sport is in your head. I don't recall any serious experts calling it the toughest. Rather, contemporary writers were calling several years of the era Chuvalo fought it, a shame to the game of boxing, and one of the worst in heavyweight history.

[mr. magoo]

Mixing different orgs together is a last straw, indeed. Whenever we talk about "Ali beat N ranked opponents", we mean ranked in Top 10 by the Ring magazine, not as in ranked by WBA or WBC (or that number might double up). Does anybody have the Ring magazines from mid-1990's to check at what point exactly did Andrew Golota enter the top10 rankings?

Same as holding to a belief that Chuvalo was never floored. He was floored at least twice. I recall him slipping to the floor one more time in another fight (one of his NY fights), although the report didn't clarify whether it was from a punch or loss of balance/slip.

The only "consensus" about the toughest era in the sport is in your head. I don't recall any serious experts calling it the toughest. Rather, contemporary writers were calling several years of the era Chuvalo fought it, a shame to the game of boxing, and one of the worst in heavyweight history.

There's more garbage in this post than in a third world shit house. Why don't you list the fights where Chuvalo was down, and keep in mind slips don't count as knockdowns, or have you revised that one in your own little world too?

And as for these reports about the 60's and 70's being a shame, I think the concencus has changed just a tad ;)

Continue to polish up your knowledge.

[Senya13]

He was down twice against Bonavena, it is common knowledge. The third time, I don't recall the report for which bout exactly it was. Unlike you, obviously, I did polish my knowledge on Chuvalo by finding and reading contemporary reports (several of his bouts at boxrec still have my name next to them, as the editor last who changed some information relevant to them, also I researched him almost 2 years ago).

[Bummy Davis]

watching those fights again even Foreman could not miss him with those roundhouse shots but what other fighter could have taken them. George gave Ali a pretty good body workout in there fights. He was strong but not a real KO artist...but a durable guy

[mr. magoo]

He was down twice against Bonavena, it is common knowledge. The third time, I don't recall the report for which bout exactly it was. Unlike you, obviously, I did polish my knowledge on Chuvalo by finding and reading contemporary reports (several of his bouts at boxrec still have my name next to them, as the editor last who changed some information relevant to them, also I researched him almost 2 years ago).


Really? so Bonavena floored Chuvalo twice, and you know this because you've edited boxrec eh?

Check out the link below............


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I think you still have some polishing up to do mate:good

[Senya13]

Quite obviously, it's on film, not at boxrec. Regardless of the decision of the referee not to count it, Chuvalo was down from punches, not just slips or loss of balance alone.

[mcvey]

Really? so Bonavena floored Chuvalo twice, and you know this because you've edited boxrec eh?

Check out the link below............


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I think you still have some polishing up to do mate:good
I have a photo of this in an old Ring magazine somewhere, Chuvalo is in a squatting/sitting position ,on the lower rope,I dont know if he subsequently went down as the report does not say,but would assume he didnt.

[Mendoza]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.

Chauvalo was a tough guy. A durable guy. But he was not fast, tall, quick with his hands or feet, or skilled. A bit of a plodder, and his power was only better than average. And his power was mostly to the body.

I think Chauvalo's stock is inflated as a loser because of who he fought. Sure, he fought Frazier, Ali, and Patterson, Foreman, but he was outclassed by these guys.

In fact, he was beaten by good tier two guys such as Bonevenna, Ellis, Terrell, and Mathis.

His best wins were over Quarry ( Quarry mis-timed the count ) Doug Jones, and DeJohn.

Much is said about the quality of the heavyweight division today, but I’m not sure if Chavalo would make the cut as a regular top 10 guy. Maybe spots 7-10, just because he'd show up in good shape.

My favorite thing about Chavalo is he is pretty good on tv, and still has his marbles.

In a way, he the the voice of the 60's and 70's fighters who have either passed, or can not speak well enough for tv interviews.

[turpinr]

Chauvalo was a tough guy. A durable guy. But he was not fast, tall, quick with his hands or feet, or skilled. A bit of a plodder, and his power was only better than average. And his power was mostly to the body.

I think Chauvalo's stock is inflated as a loser because of who he fought. Sure, he fought Frazier, Ali, and Patterson, Foreman, but he was outclassed by these guys.

In fact, he was beaten by good tier two guys such as Bonevenna, Ellis, Terrell, and Mathis.

His best wins were over Quarry ( Quarry mis-timed the count ) Doug Jones, and DeJohn.

Much is said about the quality of the heavyweight division today, but I’m not sure if Chavalo would make the cut as a regular top 10 guy. Maybe spots 7-10, just because he'd show up in good shape.

My favorite thing about Chavalo is he is pretty good on tv, and still has his marbles.

In a way, he the the voice of the 60's and 70's fighters who have either passed, or can not speak well enough for tv interviews.

miss timed the count hahahahahaha classic ,brilliant-CRAP

[mr. magoo]

I have a photo of this in an old Ring magazine somewhere, Chuvalo is in a squatting/sitting position ,on the lower rope,I dont know if he subsequently went down as the report does not say,but would assume he didnt.


The report said that he may have slipped and Bonavena claimed that he knocked him down. Juan Roldan often takes credit as the only man to ever knockdown Hagler, but to the this day there are many who call the incident a slip.
Personally, I think Senya is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument. I said that he was never knocked down in 93 fights and he claimed that it was "common knowledge " that he had. He comes up with one example in 93 matches that wasn't even ruled as a knockdown.

[Bokaj]

The report said that he may have slipped and Bonavena claimed that he knocked him down. Juan Roldan often takes credit as the only man to ever knockdown Hagler, but to the this day there are many who call the incident a slip.
Personally, I think Senya is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument. I said that he was never knocked down in 93 fights and he claimed that it was "common knowledge " that he had. He comes up with one example in 93 matches that wasn't even ruled as a knockdown.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that Chuvalo was very hard to knock down/out and that he stayed near the top for a very long time, without nitpicking over exact details.

[Bummy Davis]

Chauvalo was a tough guy. A durable guy. But he was not fast, tall, quick with his hands or feet, or skilled. A bit of a plodder, and his power was only better than average. And his power was mostly to the body.

I think Chauvalo's stock is inflated as a loser because of who he fought. Sure, he fought Frazier, Ali, and Patterson, Foreman, but he was outclassed by these guys.

In fact, he was beaten by good tier two guys such as Bonevenna, Ellis, Terrell, and Mathis.

His best wins were over Quarry ( Quarry mis-timed the count ) Doug Jones, and DeJohn.

Much is said about the quality of the heavyweight division today, but I’m not sure if Chavalo would make the cut as a regular top 10 guy. Maybe spots 7-10, just because he'd show up in good shape.

My favorite thing about Chavalo is he is pretty good on tv, and still has his marbles.

In a way, he the the voice of the 60's and 70's fighters who have either passed, or can not speak well enough for tv interviews.


well said

[Senya13]

It doesn't need to be on a photo, when it can be seen on the film. Yeah, Chuvalo partially lost balance, but he didn't go down because of that, he was put down by a punch. Common knowledge for anybody who has watched the film. If a fighter goes down from a legal punch, it is a knockdown, plain and simple. Just because the referee blew the call, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[mr. magoo]

Senya, give it a rest already.....

[bigjake]

The report said that he may have slipped and Bonavena claimed that he knocked him down. Juan Roldan often takes credit as the only man to ever knockdown Hagler, but to the this day there are many who call the incident a slip.
Personally, I think Senya is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument. I said that he was never knocked down in 93 fights and he claimed that it was "common knowledge " that he had. He comes up with one example in 93 matches that wasn't even ruled as a knockdown.

chuvalo was never down in 93 fights as a pro nor down in training or even as an amature, thats a fact this senya guys got problems man hes an asshole.

[ChrisPontius]

Regardless of what Senya says or has said, he is right that Chuvalo in fact got knocked down twice by Bonavena, even if neither officially was ruled one nor was he really hurt; he got hit by a good punch and went down. This is on film to see. It used to be on YouTube, but unfortunately it got removed.


On a sidenote, i believe there was talk of a Chuvalo vs Shavers bout. I would've liked to see that one, i'd favor the Canadian there and it would be one of his best wins.

[Bummy Davis]

Regardless of what Senya says or has said, he is right that Chuvalo in fact got knocked down twice by Bonavena, even if neither officially was ruled one nor was he really hurt; he got hit by a good punch and went down. This is on film to see. It used to be on YouTube, but unfortunately it got removed.


On a sidenote, i believe there was talk of a Chuvalo vs Shavers bout. I would've liked to see that one, i'd favor the Canadian there and it would be one of his best wins.

Good point, I too believe that George had the perfect style to beat Earnie ( that would be a good fight to bet because G.C. would be the underdog I feel strong that Chuvalo could beat Shavers...late stop 8-12

[bigjake]

bonavena pushed chuvalo thats why the referee never called it a knockdown,i was around during this fight i don't belirve some of you were even born then.bonavena was a hotdog chuvalo called him a dog.watch the fight he ran from chuvalo he said hewas going to stand up to him.i think senya that chris guy are reaching here a little

[mr. magoo]

Regardless of what Senya says or has said, he is right that Chuvalo in fact got knocked down twice by Bonavena, even if neither officially was ruled one nor was he really hurt; he got hit by a good punch and went down. This is on film to see. It used to be on YouTube, but unfortunately it got removed.


On a sidenote, i believe there was talk of a Chuvalo vs Shavers bout. I would've liked to see that one, i'd favor the Canadian there and it would be one of his best wins.

The fact that it was bad refereeing doesn't reverse the ruling, just as poor judging doesn't change a verdict. Frankly, it certainly appeared as though Corrie Sanders handed Vitali klitschko his first career knockdown, but it was ruled as a slip. Therefore, its a slip........

[ChrisPontius]

The fact that it was bad refereeing doesn't reverse the ruling, just as poor judging doesn't change a verdict. Frankly, it certainly appeared as though Corrie Sanders handed Vitali klitschko his first career knockdown, but it was ruled as a slip. Therefore, its a slip........

The difference is that Sanders missed a punch (straight power left), then put his right hand behind his head and shoved him down.

Oscar landed a flush left hook on the chin while Chuvalo was throwing a shot himself... those are often the ones that result in a KD, and he went down right after.

It's correct to say that Chuvalo never suffered and official knockdown, but when you see said fight, you'll find that he was indeed down twice, even if he was not hurt. If Sanders landed a punch before Klitschko went down, but it wasn't ruled a knockdown for whatever reason, i'd be happy to admit he got knocked down. But we have a brain for ourselfs and can see what happened. Chuvalo got knocked down.

[mr. magoo]

=ChrisPontius;3502775]The difference is that Sanders missed a punch (straight power left), then put his right hand behind his head and shoved him down.


You're right. I just rewatched it on youtube and that was clearly no knockdown.

But we have a brain for ourselfs and can see what happened. Chuvalo got knocked down.[/quote]

Did you mean - we have a brain for ourselves?

Sorry, I couldn't resist commenting on the irony. :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Did you mean - we have a brain for ourselves?

Sorry, I couldn't resist commenting on the irony. :lol:

Well i said i had a brain, didn't say it was a good one. :D

[bigjake]

The difference is that Sanders missed a punch (straight power left), then put his right hand behind his head and shoved him down.

Oscar landed a flush left hook on the chin while Chuvalo was throwing a shot himself... those are often the ones that result in a KD, and he went down right after.

It's correct to say that Chuvalo never suffered and official knockdown, but when you see said fight, you'll find that he was indeed down twice, even if he was not hurt. If Sanders landed a punch before Klitschko went down, but it wasn't ruled a knockdown for whatever reason, i'd be happy to admit he got knocked down. But we have a brain for ourselfs and can see what happened. Chuvalo got knocked down.
]
it was a push that oscar used on chuvalo,thats why there was no count do you think your smarter then the referee?maybe you and that senya guy need to start viewing another sport thats my suggestion

[round15]

Both the film and the contemporary reports reveal him a brawler with very poor skills. Wishful thinking, kind of like people claiming Max Baer had some skills.

Chuvalo's very poor skills sent Ali to the hospital with some internal bleeding after their first fight. Chuvalo's very poor skills put some serious hurt on Floyd Patterson which I believe was the fight of the year in 1965.
Chuvalo's very poor skills beat Quarry in seven rounds, but couldn't get him the rightful decision against Terrell.

[mr. magoo]

Chuvalo's very poor skills sent Ali to the hospital with some internal bleeding after their first fight. Chuvalo's very poor skills put some serious hurt on Floyd Patterson which I believe was the fight of the year in 1965.
Chuvalo's very poor skills beat Quarry in seven rounds, but couldn't get him the rightful decision against Terrell.

Well said,

The problem however is that Senya views the above mentioned fighters as being journeyman, so the fact that Chuvalo gave all of them great fights and even defeated some them, doesn't mean much..

[ChrisPontius]

]
it was a push that oscar used on chuvalo,thats why there was no count do you think your smarter then the referee?maybe you and that senya guy need to start viewing another sport thats my suggestion

Yes, since i have the aid of slow motion replay, or just a re-play option at all, i am much smarter than the referee.

[Senya13]

You don't need skills to bang away at the body or head and cause damage. Completely irrelevant arguments. Patterson actually went in and slugged with Chuvalo, instead of boxing. He claimed he injured his hand or something, although the commission din't find proof of it. Chuvalo complained ala John Ruiz, that the referee was breaking them apart too soon the whole fight. He liked to make stupid complaints about the fights he lost anyway.

[NoCoolFool?]

You don't need skills to bang away at the body or head and cause damage.

what??

[bigjake]

Yes, since i have the aid of slow motion replay, or just a re-play option at all, i am much smarter than the referee.

fact remains 93 fights never floored young feller,i like how smart you think you are.we are talking about1 of the most durable heavys that ever stepped into boxing ring a guy that has nothing to prove to young guy like you

[Mendoza]

Well said,

The problem however is that Senya views the above mentioned fighters as being journeyman, so the fact that Chuvalo gave all of them great fights and even defeated some them, doesn't mean much..

I do not think that is what Seyna is saying. I think he is saying Chavalo was a throw back quality journeyman type, and as we know, thought out boxing history those people can create problems for top five fighters in a particular decade.


If Chavalo won a few round on Ali, it tells me Ali fought the wrong type of fight, did not in-fight, did not have clinching skills then, and lacked the power to keep Chavalo off of him as an out fighter.

[Russell]

fact remains 93 fights never floored young feller,i like how smart you think you are.we are talking about1 of the most durable heavys that ever stepped into boxing ring a guy that has nothing to prove to young guy like you

Why in the FUCK are you always playing the age card?

Are we all inherently retarded because we don't have grandchildren and fiber deficiencies?

[bigjake]

Why in the FUCK are you always playing the age card?

Are we all inherently retarded because we don't have grandchildren and fiber deficiencies?

because i can thats why,young guys use their youth older guys use experience,i have no deficiencies buddy i'm 61 and still hit the heavy bag pretty well.at 6'1" tall and 230lbs i can still go a few rds most guys quit after several body shots

[Russell]

:lol:

So you think it's some telling statistic that puts you on a pedestal while at the same time doing exactly what 15 year olds do with the chest bumping "I'm 220 pounds!" bullshit.

Best of both worlds there, Jake. A wise old man who can also brag out what a man he is.

[bigjake]

:lol:

So you think it's some telling statistic that puts you on a pedestal while at the same time doing exactly what 15 year olds do with the chest bumping "I'm 220 pounds!" bullshit.

Best of both worlds there, Jake. A wise old man who can also brag out what a man he is.

you seem to have a problem son.

[Russell]

son.

:rofl

I rest my case, dad.

[mr. magoo]

I do not think that is what Seyna is saying. I think he is saying Chavalo was a throw back quality journeyman type, and as we know, thought out boxing history those people can create problems for top five fighters in a particular decade.


.


That's EXACTLY what he has illuded to in the past. He has called Norton, Quarry, Shavers and Lyle journeyman. In fact, I was tuning in to a conversation that he had with Janitor one time several months ago, and he referred to Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles as journeyman. Now he's making comments like " you don't need skills to bang away at the head or body to cause damage. " Its staggering the amount of shit he talks, then makes references to what he calls " contemporary sources, " in an effort to show pessimistic views about a particular fighter during their perspective time. That's all well and good, but he uses that as the end all be all to assess that fighter's quality and historical value. If we were to always go by what assholes say in regards to the current man on top, then your precious Klits are never going anywhere in the big picture of history Mendoza.....Get my drift?

[Senya13]

Exact quote, please, where I called Ezzard Charles a journeyman?

I can provide you with literally hundreds of reports from late 19th and early 20th century, where newspaper writers reported fights where a clever boxer was given trouble by unskilled (all relatively, of course) tough men, who just went in despite the damage they were receiving and banged at the body and head, holding the more clever man even or having the better of it. Only complete fool thinks you need some special skills to move your arms in close, where the opponent doesn't know how to protect the body during infighting (such as Ali or Patterson). Watch current crop of European fighters (since I live in Europe, we get more of them shown on TV, than American fighters), all these German and Polish cruiserweight and heavyweight mediocrities, who quite obviously are taught something in the gym, but they still have little idea about defense except how to cover yourself up behind raised arms, no head movement, not footwork, nothing. Chuvalo was exactly like these guys, tough, strong man, but having very little where science is concerned. Someone as "wooden" as Marco Huck, for example, shows somewhat more skills than Chuvalo.

[ChrisPontius]

fact remains 93 fights never floored young feller,i like how smart you think you are.we are talking about1 of the most durable heavys that ever stepped into boxing ring a guy that has nothing to prove to young guy like you

Of course Chuvalo has nothing to prove to me; i never said or claimed he did. I'm merely stating what i see.

[mr. magoo]

Exact quote, please, where I called Ezzard Charles a journeyman?




I don't have the time to go sifting back through 6-12 months of posts looking for a misinformed comment. You know what you said. If anything, I can PM Janitor and ask him to verify it.

[Senya13]

Certainly I know what I could say, and what I couldn't. I never called Charles a journeyman.

[round15]

Certainly I know what I could say, and what I couldn't. I never called Charles a journeyman.

Senya13, respect to you for your posts and opinions about the sport. I appreciate your boxing knowledge and enthusiasm.

I honestly can't recall you calling Charles a journeymen, but you have underrated and discredited some of the all time greats in previous posts, like Charles, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Patterson and Holmes. Basically anyone who is not "Ali" you have had contrary opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if you're a huge Ali supporter, but to say that it doesn't take skills to be able to bang to the body is very wrong.

In fact, I've met and talked to different fighters and trainers who say body shots thrown correctly are among the hardest shots to land, especially with regards to footwork and position.

It surprises me that you can say this especially considering the beautiful body shots that I've seen from fighters like Arguello, Roy Jones of course, Archie Moore, and heavyweights Tyson and Frazier who made their boxing livings on body shots. What about Julio Cesar Chavez and the essence of South American boxing which is primarily based on throwing the left hook to the body?

Body shots take serious practice and care to throw to achieve the maximum affect. There's more to just banging away in flurries to the body as opposed to using all the punches properly to land body shots. Hooks to the body, uppercuts to the body, jabs to the body, straight rights to the body.

Think about it.

[Senya13]

Ali supporter? That's something I've never been called. Are you new on this board?

[round15]

Ali supporter? That's something I've never been called. Are you new on this board?

Who do you support the most as a heavyweight then? I read posts from you underrating Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Patterson and Quarry, not surprisingly all opponents of Ali.

Do you still believe it takes very little skills to bang away at the body or the head with success?

I strongly believe ALL punches to the head and body must be taught with proper balance, stance, footwork and guard position. Flurrying is not just winging punches to the body or head. Effective flurries are punches put together in combinations.

George Chuvalo knows how to punch in combinations to the head and body.

I'm not new on this board either.

[Senya13]

I'm not talking about proper or not proper technique of throwing punches. You don't need much practice, you don't need a trainer, you don't need talent, to be hitting the body in close when, and I repeat, when the opponent doesn't know how to defend the body or just doesn't want to protect it (like Ali). It doesn't require skills to be able to do damage that way, just you gotta be strong and have some small practice at boxing or some other martial art.

[Bokaj]

Who do you support the most as a heavyweight then? I read posts from you underrating Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, Patterson and Quarry, not surprisingly all opponents of Ali.

For a huge Ali supporter it would seem more logical to tend to overrate these guys.

[round15]

I'm not talking about proper or not proper technique of throwing punches. You don't need much practice, you don't need a trainer, you don't need talent, to be hitting the body in close when, and I repeat, when the opponent doesn't know how to defend the body or just doesn't want to protect it (like Ali). It doesn't require skills to be able to do damage that way, just you gotta be strong and have some small practice at boxing or some other martial art.

You DO need talent to throw to the body properly. I find this odd but comical coming from you. I'd laugh at you in sparring or fighting sessions, throwing a body shot because, you'd probably break your wrist or bust your hand trying with this kind of logic.

To hit to the body properly in close, takes more skill than just throwing the punch. Logically, if an opponent doesn't know how to defend a body shot, their hands are going to drift lower which is natural. You know what this means? You're at risk of landing the punch on the elbows or forearms, which can do damage to your own hands.

There is no way Senya13, that you're going to turn over and pronate an uppercut to the body or a hook to the body which doesn't happen by just trying to throw the punch. There is no way Senya13 that you're going to land a proper straight right hand punch to the body unless you set it up properly off a jab with footwork.

I've sparred and trained against fighters of different skills, and you know what? Nine times out of ten, the most inexperienced fighter's hands will drift down to mid-riff. This is a natural reactionary occurrence for a fighter unless they are taught properly. The biggest, strongest, and most inexperienced guys that I've sparred with barely hurt me to the body, whereas the smaller guys that had footwork and technique who knew how to throw body shots properly, hurt me much more.

Another thing, Ali's reflexes saved him from a lot of improper technique, but he did block body shots with his left hand across his belly and sometimes parried as well.

[mr. magoo]

You DO need talent to throw to the body properly. I find this odd but comical coming from you. I'd laugh at you in sparring or fighting sessions, throwing a body shot because, you'd probably break your wrist of bust your hand trying with this kind of logic.

To hit to the body properly in close, takes more skill than just throwing the punch. Logically, if an opponent doens't know how to defend a body shot, their hands are going to drift lower which is natural. You know what this means? You're a risk of landing the punch on the elbows or forearms, which can do damage to your own hands.

There is no way Senya13, that you're going to turn over and pronate an uppercut to the body or a hook to the body which doesn't happen by just trying to throw the punch. There is no way Senya13 that you're going to land a proper straight right hand punch to the body unless you set it up properly off a jab with footwork.

I've sparred and trained against fighters of different skills, and you know what? Nine times out of ten, the most inexperienced fighter's hands will drift down to mid-riff. This is a natural reactionary occurrence for a fighter unless they are taught properly. The biggest, strongest, and most inexperienced guys that I've sparred with barely hurt me to the body, whereas the smaller guys that had footwork and technique who knew how to throw body shots properly, hurt me much more.

Another thing, Ali's reflexes saved him from a lot of improper technique, but he did block body shots with his left hand across his belly and sometimes parried as well.

Take a friendly word from the wise..

Don't waste your breath..

[Senya13]

There were literally thousands of fighters who started boxing career without proper training, they just needed the money and this seemed like a good choice to earn a buck or two. This was when the gloves were much smaller than today too. Yet, few of them broke their hands while landing punches to body or head. By your way of thinking each one of these thousands had plenty of talent to be able to avoid injuries at once.

Sorry, but your reasoning is de facto completely flawed, as the practice has been showing us for soon to be 300 years (since James Figg).

[mr. magoo]

This was when the gloves were much smaller than today too. Yet, few of them broke their hands while landing punches to body or head. By your way of thinking each one of these thousands had plenty of talent to be able to avoid injuries at once.




What evidence do you have to support that " few " fighters broke or unjured their hands in those days? The whole reason why boxing gloves were invented, and made bigger over time, was to PROTECT the hand.

[Senya13]

I have tens of thousands of pages with boxing reports, and people breaking their hands in limited-rounds fights happened very seldom. I hope you not gonna be trying to persuade me each one of them, especially in second half of 19th century, had a trainer who taught them how to punch before they entered the ring for the first time, and then entered it on an almost weekly basis.

[burywh|te]

Wow... Okay I've seen the Chuvalo / Bonavena fight about five times now. Honestly, I think Chuvalo won the fight. If he didn't, it at least should have been a draw but I will re-post with my round-for-found analysis soon showing which rounds each fighter won and if you disagree, you can go ahead. Now, there are two issues of contention in that fight with respect to Chuvalo being knocked down, and these occur in rounds 1 and 4. When I watch these in slow motion, I find that in round 1, Chuvalo gets hit coming in and while attempting to throw his own punch, slips and falls back. If you look at his feet, its pretty clear that is a slip. The referee didn't count this as a knockdown and I agree with his decision. Had Chuvalo not lost his footing it would have been an entirely different story. The only reason some might say Bonavena knocked Chuvalo down is because Bonavena happened to land a punch right before Chuvalo slipped. But if you think of Chuvalo's iron chin, you know it would take a lot more than that to floor him.

The other contended issue is what happens in round 4. Chuvalo takes a good shot from Bonavena and falls back into the ropes. It wasn't the same sort of shot that Chuvalo took from Foreman that put him into the ropes, but it was decent. Oddly enough, Chuvalo also seems to have lost his footing here too, but I'm not calling this a slip. I'm not calling it a knockdown either because Chuvalo fell into the ropes. If the ropes had not been there, Chuvalo might have been knocked down. But they were there, and Chuvalo did not hit the canvas in round 4.

If any of you disagree, feel free to post with your analysis but the die-hard boxing fans that I know who have seen this fight all agree that the first incident was a slip, and the second incident wasn't anything near a knockdown given the rules in the marquis.

As for the question, "How good was Chuvalo?", the answer is pretty damn good. There are few fighters that have the complete package - I'd say Sugar Ray Robinson is the closest to having nearly every attribute you could ask for as a fighter. Ali had speed, Foreman/Liston/Shavers had power, Chuvalo was tought, durable, and probably had the best chin in the history of boxing. He was Canadian Heavyweight Champion for more than two decades. Ali called him the toughest fighter he ever fought. He sent Ali to the hospital with bleeding kidneys. He fought 97 pro heavyweight fights and was never knocked down. He also knocked out four guys in one night in a total of twelve minutes at the Jack Dempsey tournament in Toronto. His fight with Patterson (which many believe he won) was named Ring Magazine Fight of the Year in 1965. He ended both DeJohn and Durelle's careers. He also was robbed in the Terrell fight in 1965 for the WBA championship - this is a known fact. He was ranked in the top ten of heavyweights longer than any fighter ever. I think if you combine all of these points, it is pretty tough to claim that he wasn't a good fighter. He was damn good, in my opinion. If you really would like to know, ask the fighters he fought! He had a similar style to Joe Louis in that he came right at his opponents, was still on his feet (not jumping around), and was a very exciting fighter to watch. He's a promoter's dream, like Tyson. I'd rather watch Chuvalo and Tyson lose an exciting fight than watch Terrell or Klitschko win a boring one.

[mcvey]

You are mistaken.

If you ever meet George Chuvalo and ask him questions about boxing technique you will see that he is verry knowledgable.

I like George Chuvalo ,everybody does,it is great to see him so hale, and hearty after the battles and personal troubles he has endured.But, let's not go over board here.

Chuvalo was outpointed rather comfortably by moderate Eduardo Corletti whom , a year earlier could only draw with Benito Penna, Dante Cane, Albert Westphal,and Billy Walker, Tough as old boots ,brave as a lion, but defensively skilled? NO WAY.:nono

[junior-soprano]

he would kick david haye's ass in my opinion

[junior-soprano]

today he would be ranked in the top 5 defintely

[mcvey]

today he would be ranked in the top 5 defintely

Agreed, but what would that be worth ?

[THEBODYSHOT]

tough as they come man

[Dio]

George Chuvalo was the toughest S.O.B in boxing.

btw How can I watch the fight for Chuvalo vs Bonavena?

[round15]

Mistaken about what? On what I can see on film (people like to claim Sam Peter is unskilled, but he's a class above Chuvalo skillwise)? Or on what contemporary writers wrote about him?

I trained with the man and talked to him about his fights. You know nothing about him if you think he's totally absent of skills. Yes he was more of a plodder, but c'mon man the guy could box. People remember him more for his toughness and chin. There was a reason why his fight with Floyd Patterson was the fight of the year in 1956.

Nonsense Senya13, coming from a person with the boxing knowledge you have is a bit surpising.

Another thing, who cares about what contemporary writers drivel about boxers unless they are serious autobiographers. Ask the fighters he fought about his skills.

[bigjake]

In case of Chuvalo, I can not just read, but can watch the film of several of his fights too. And he's nothing but a crude slugger, who is willing to absorb hundreds of punches to the head in order to wear an opponent down with attacks to the body in close. He has zero knowledge about long and mid-range fighting, or about defense.
your mistaken on that,i've met the man 3 times.he's drown you in knowledge my friend

[bigjake]

I disagree with this. Jem Mace was considered a contender from 1861-1890, hell he scored a draw with Mike Donavon in 1896 and a ND with Tommy Ryan in 1897. I think it was in 1888 when John L. Sullivan was doing tours in Europe he challenged Mace, but Mace refused, so Sullivan met Mitchell in France scoring a dubious 39 round draw, after Sullivan knocked Mitchell down over 35 times.

So, in essence, Mace was a contender for 29 years. Chuvalo was a contender from at least 1960-1972, that's only 12 years. Hell, Holyfield has stayed up as a contender longer than this.

chuvalo was a contender from 1958 to about 1972

[bigjake]

I have a photo of this in an old Ring magazine somewhere, Chuvalo is in a squatting/sitting position ,on the lower rope,I dont know if he subsequently went down as the report does not say,but would assume he didnt.

chuvalo was never down those were pushes the ref knew that.bonavena told everyone he'd meet chuvalo head on.fight night he ran like a dog chuvalo said.

[MagnaNasakki]

One of the very best gatekeepers ever.

If you were not a great or a champion, you had to bring your absolute A-game to get the W. Chuvalo was tough, dogged, always in absolute grade A condition, and had the rare gift of being able to work a man's body as if it were the heavy bag(Most can't do in a fight what they do in training-they become different animals.)

He could beat anyone today not named Klitschko if they had anywhere near an off night.