Where do you Rank Mickey Walker in your ATG?

[asero]

im really curious how people rank mickey walker in their list..

dinamita - 8th
mcgrain - 6th
tbooze - 16th
sweet_scientist - 24th
espn - 17th
ring mag - 27th (last 80 years only)
bert sugar - 11th
trampie - 5th

i personally ranked him 21st. i feel he did not accomplished more. he beat britton, narrowly beat flowers and lost to loughran. his career defining bout is when he give up 30 pounds and held sharkey to a draw..

i want to ask why would you ranked him above hagler, chavez, arguello and saddler(fighters in the 18-23 range)? and how would you compare him to ross and monzon( fighters in the 12th-15th range) ..honestly, i do not think he is top 10 material..

in terms of overall career and accomplishment. taking into consideration everything with primarily consideration his accomplishment, how would you rank him?

if i would do a prime vs prime list or head to head list. then he'll be top 10. but i do not think he is top 10 in terms of accomplishment...

[DINAMITA]

I have him 8th, but I see the argument for having him as high as 6th. I do not understand why anyone would not have him top 10. Don't have time to go into why now, will check this thread out tomorrow.

[the cobra]

I have him top 10. I could see him just outside, but I think he edges out most others for a spot around #7 or so.

Walker was the definition of P4P. He was very accomplished at Welterweight and Middleweight, deserving of a top 10 ranking in both divisions, and had excellent success up at LHW and heavy as well.

[asero]

but pac and mclarnin have also success in various divisions as well..does he accomplished more than leonard and sweet pea?

[dmille]

number 4 at 147 and number 23 P4P...

[WhataRock]

I have him like 13th or 14th I think.

He could easily move up a few spots, or even down a couple in my list such is the the closeness of the fighters around that range.

Pretty much sums up the definition of p4p.Quite like Langford and Walcott did..After really looking into it, having him outside the top 20 seems far to low.

I think his accomplishments are what make him asero..Considering his longevity, his p4p achievments and his amount of wins over quality opposition. The film of him in his prime is probably to sparse to definitevly rank him in a H2H sense. Much easier to do it based on his accomplishments IMO, which are very impressive.

[asero]

I have him like 13th or 14th I think.

He could easily move up a few spots, or even down a couple in my list such is the the closeness of the fighters around that range.

Pretty much sums up the definition of p4p.Quite like Langford and Walcott did..After really looking into it, having him outside the top 20 seems far to low.

I think his accomplishments are what make him asero..Considering his longevity, his p4p achievments and his amount of wins over quality opposition. The film of him in his prime is probably to sparse to definitevly rank him in a H2H sense. Much easier to do it based on his accomplishments IMO, which are very impressive.


who would you think from these list of boxers would you ranked lower than walker? i really feel that hagler accomplish more. he is p4p king for 5 years in the 1980s.


Archie Moore
Benny Leonard
Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Carlos Monzon
Jack Johnson
Barney Ross
Bob Fitzsimmons
Marvin Hagler
Joe Gans
Jimmy Wilde

[WhataRock]

I know I have Moore and Benny Leonard higher.

I think I have Gans and Ray Leonard aswell.

The rest would come in below Walker IMO..Depending on your criteria a few have Fitzsimmons very close if not higher than Mickey.

Hagler did things differently to Mickey..Mickey fought a lot of bigger fighters to get where he is, Marvin's signature wins were over smaller fighters. I have been told I overrate Hagler and I have him about 6 spots below Walker, I could never picture myself considering him greater...except in alltime middleweight rankings perhaps.

[asero]

rock, i check your all-time list minutes ago, you had walker at 21st spot..why all of a sudden you pushes him to the 13th spot..i place walker..we have the same top 20 except i put fitzsimmons there and you put saddler

[WhataRock]

rock, i check your all-time list minutes ago, you had walker at 21st spot..why all of a sudden you pushes him to the 13th spot..i place walker..we have the same top 20 except i put fitzsimmons there and you put saddler


That was my initial list that I was rehashing based on memory...I missed Walker completely on the first draft as I couldnt remember where he was ranked.

I slotted him in at 21st and made the disclaimer that I will review the whole thing when I stretch it out to the 100.
After some thought I thought Mickey deserved to be inside the top20, and inside the top 15 seemed fair.

I know you dont like Saddler asero...dirtiest fighter of all time as you like to remind us :lol:.
Fitz is a bit low in my list for some...but I dont think its to unreasonable having him there.

[asero]

i do not like him, but saddler is still top 2 FW, i had him at 22nd...so you have sweet pea, monzon, ross and jack johnson below walker? honestly, still i think these four have better accomplishment that walker?

[asero]

i put hagler in my top 20 for the simple reason that he is top p4p fighter for 5 consecutive years in one of the richest era in boxing..it's hard to duplicate..dela hoya is top 1 p4p for four years but we all now that he doesnt live up to it as he losses to trinidad and mosley..

[WhataRock]

I really cant see how Johnson has..not even close. But I know you put a lot of emphasis on the historical impact and "timelessness" of a fighter, which I do not.

Pea, Monzon and Ross are pretty close to Mickey anyway IMO.

[asero]

as far i would want to put walker in my top 20, i really can't. i believe that my top 20 is fixed..chavez, arguello, saddler and walker misses by top 20 considerably. but still those 4 are very far away from jones, marciano, tunney and hopkins...

[redrooster]

25 for me. Arguello inside my top 20

[Holmes' Jab]

7 or 8.

[Minotauro]

I've always placed him at 12 but will probably move him within the top ten just haven't decided who the drop.

[McGrain]

I don't like to see Walker lower than #15 or inside the top 5. Anything in between is fine with me.

For those ranking him lower, let's have a quick look at some of his best stuff.

Beat Maxie Rosenbloom. ATG at 175. A bit like Paul Williams beating Calzaghe.

Drew with Sharkey. Top 30 at HW. A bit like Paul Williams drawing with Chagaev.

Outpointed Uzcudun. A bit like Paul Williams out-pointing Gomez.

Bearcat Wright, Johnny Risko, more 190lb plus contenders that Walker beat.

Leo Lomski, Mike McTigue, cracking 175lb fighters that Walker laid low. Walker was not a lightheavyweight. He was a big welter or a light-middleweight. But he has a good LHW resume and a decent one at HW. That's incredible.

SO, victories over ATG fighters at welter, middle, light-heavy, and very good heavyweights, often giving away nearly 50lbs. He's a head to head nightmare at welter through to super-middle, something in itself. If you've seen the Schmeling fight you know that he probably has one of the biggest hearts in boxing history to go with his other excellent attributes.

The definition of p4p credentials.

No way should he be in the twenties. Absolutley no way, that's nothing less than a mistake.

[asero]

would you say that walker accomplish more than fitzsimmons..he have to doubt p4p h2h he is top 10, but i feel his KO loss to schmeling just equates his victory over sharkey..plus he lost to a past prime greb in his best weight. he lost to loughran and had a controversial win over flowers..he do not have a winning record against top 100 ATG..

[McGrain]

would you say that walker accomplish more than fitzsimmons..

Accomplished more? No, FItz accomplished more. That would be the core argument for ranking Fitz above Walker (With which I have no problem).

but i feel his KO loss to schmeling just equates his victory over sharkey..

Schmeling was a close to elite puncher. Walker kicked off at welterweight. That's sort of like saying that if Paul Williams lost to Wlad he would somehow lose credit for being on the unlucky end of a draw with Chagaev. Doesn't make sense. If Williams pulled of something like that he would be clean p4p #1 currently and all kinds of strange shouts would got up in general.

As things stand, it won't happen because it is not possible. That's how good Walker was. He did things that just are not possible for 99.9% of boxers.

Have you seen Walker-Schmeling? The beating Walker absorbs is perhaps the most insane ever. I don't want to go overboard, but i'd argue that Walker's losing effort against Schmeling is amongs the most incredible things i've seen on film. Unbeleiveable. Knowing he cannot possibly win on the back foot, Walker doesn't just absorb this mad beating but keeps coming forward, holding the correct game-plan in place.

Looking at it the other way - if Walker had somehow found a way to beat Schmeling - who beat Joe Louis - He would have a case for p4p #1 IMO.

plus he lost to a past prime greb in his best weight.

I don't think Greb was past his prime, but I do understand he was suffering a bit with weight. Greb was a better fighter than Walker, that's unquestionable, and should be refelected in any rankings.

But Greb was better than almost everybody.

he lost to loughran and had a controversial win over flowers..he do not have a winning record against top 100 ATG..

Lougran is an ATG nearly 30lbs north of Walker's weight turning pro. He also beat Greb, all time top 4, no question, and gave Tunney a horrific time whilst green as grass at Tunney's best weight. Again, if Walker finds a way to beat Loughran, that's an astonishing result.

I don't think of Walker as having beaten Flowers, by the way, picking through the carcass of that fight isn't nice.

[asero]

thanks Mcgrain, these boxers occupy my 11-20 spots..i have mickey walker at 21st

11. Benny Leonard
12. Ray Leonard
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Jack Johnson
16. Barney Ross
17. Bob Fitzsimmons
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Joe Gans
20. Jimmy Wilde

mcgrain, which if these boxers should clearly be ranked below walker? as much as i would want to put walker in the top 20, i feel that walker is isn't really top 20 because of his losses..

[McGrain]

thanks Mcgrain, these boxers occupy my 11-20 spots..i have mickey walker at 21st

11. Benny Leonard
12. Ray Leonard
13. Pernell Whitaker
14. Carlos Monzon
15. Jack Johnson
16. Barney Ross
17. Bob Fitzsimmons
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Joe Gans
20. Jimmy Wilde

mcgrain, which if these boxers should clearly be ranked below walker? as much as i would want to put walker in the top 20, i feel that walker is isn't really top 20 because of his losses..

I'll use some of the easier ones, and i'll use my own criteria, which is a pretty even mix between head to head, accomplishment, p4p achievment, skillsets and physical equipment and no room here for "Greatness" in the wider social sense of the word.

1 - Marvin Hagler. I'm not even 100% convinced tha Hagler would beat Walker, though I would make him favourite to take a points decision. Regardless, Hagler has nothing like the wins against ATG fighters that Walker does, and nothing like the p4p achievment. In terms of skillset Hagler nudges ahead, in terms of physical equipment too, but there really isn't a lot between these men in these areas. Hagler's three best wins include a lightweight - Walker's three best results are all heavyweights. If it's a pound for pound list then Walker's giving away massive amounts of weight against quality men is surely a deciding factor.

At Middle, Hagler should always be above Walker. In fact Walker has no weight at which he is locked into a top 5. Walker makes the p4p top 10 list in an overall sense, not for his work at any one weight.

2 - Jack Johnson. Jack has a lot of really good wins, some of which are perhaps underated based upon Boxrec stats now. He was also a good champion at his weight and very skilled. But he was often the bigger man in his fights and his title run is not glowing.

Compare this with Walker, who matched the very best available - not even just in a pound for pound sense, but in a literal sense, chasing the best and biggest fighters in the world and often beating them.

The horrible truth for Johnson is that his run as world champion does not compare well with Walker's run as a contender. Think about that.


3 - Carlos Monzon. Near identical argument to the Hagler on actually.

You get the idea, I'm sure.

Anyway, i'm satisfied that there is no set of criteria on an ATG p4p list that allows any of these three to be above Walker. Of the guys you've listed for whom I think a case can be made -

Benny Leonard
Ray Leonard
Barney Ross
Bob Fitzsimmons

But for me, Walker's argument is the better.

[asero]

that is the reason why HW are penalized in terms of p4p..they have to option to go up..i put hagler in my top 20 because he is the top p4p fighter for five consecutive years. jackson is merely there for historical impact of his wins. he is timeless because of that. monzon is undefeated (prime) and keeps us wondering how could he beaten.

again, prime vs prime list, walker is top 10..but his losses hurts him. and we must consider that losses in terms of ATG. In an head to head list however, we can ignore that losses and just concentrate in his excellent performance in his great fights

[DINAMITA]

The very idea of anyone having Marvin Hagler over Mickey Walker is nothing short of absurd in my humble opinion - absurd!

[stevebhoy87]

9th

[McGrain]

that is the reason why HW are penalized in terms of p4p..they have to option to go up..


Well the class is "open", so it is possible for HW's to match and beat much bigger men, but you're right, it is tough for HW to do extraordinary things. But I look at it the other way - better to penalise HW's than penalise the smaller men that move up. Walker should be credited for giving away all that size to the top fighters of his day.

i put hagler in my top 20 because he is the top p4p fighter for five consecutive years.

I can almost see a case for Hagler in the 20, but not quite. I have him between 30 and 38.

As for Walker, he beat ATG Britton in '22 and ATG Rosenbloom way up at LHW in '34. Hard to imagine him slipping of the list in the 11 years in between. Think about it ELEVEN years on the p4p list, much of it spent beating bigger men, ducking nobody.

[GPater11093]

i have him between 10-20 its about 11-14 really

[asero]

i really can not put walker in my top 20 for he does not have a winning record against other ATG top 100..he lost to britton, malone, greb. held close by flowers...same reason why i do not have jofre in my top 30..

i still feel that ross, sweet pea, leonard, gans, wilde and monzon accomplished more..

[Mendoza]

im really curious how people rank mickey walker in their list..

dinamita - 8th
mcgrain - 6th
tbooze - 16th
sweet_scientist - 24th
espn - 17th
ring mag - 27th (last 80 years only)
bert sugar - 11th
trampie - 5th

i personally ranked him 21st. i feel he did not accomplished more. he beat britton, narrowly beat flowers and lost to loughran. his career defining bout is when he give up 30 pounds and held sharkey to a draw..

i want to ask why would you ranked him above hagler, chavez, arguello and saddler(fighters in the 18-23 range)? and how would you compare him to ross and monzon( fighters in the 12th-15th range) ..honestly, i do not think he is top 10 material..

in terms of overall career and accomplishment. taking into consideration everything with primarily consideration his accomplishment, how would you rank him?

if i would do a prime vs prime list or head to head list. then he'll be top 10. but i do not think he is top 10 in terms of accomplishment...



Walker might suffer from existing films! Here is the problem. Much of what is out there on Walker is him vs heavyweights in Max Schmeling and Jack Sharkey. Many feel Walker beat Jack Sharkey, but the match was ruled a draw!.

Few welters / middles moving up would do this well, so I'd like to see Walker in his natural weight class of middle or welter.

Walker did beat bigger heavies or light heavies. Quality boxers in Rosenbloom, and Uzcdun

He holds a win at middle over Tiger Flowers, and Mike McTiuge. I wish I could see these fights!

Top 11-15 at middle for me until further notice, even though he rates HIGHER in a pound for pound sense than many of the middles who rate above him!

[McGrain]

i really can not put walker in my top 20 for he does not have a winning record against other ATG top 100..he lost to britton, malone, greb. held close by flowers...same reason why i do not have jofre in my top 30..

i still feel that ross, sweet pea, leonard, gans, wilde and monzon accomplished more..


What you are failing to understand, or discounting, is that beating ATG's at welter is a less impressive achievment than beating HW's. That is, most of the HW's Walker would have beaten towards the end of his 11 years at the top of p4p lists would have beaten all the guys he struggled with whilst younger.

So you're list stack up may be a little misleading.

Not least Wilde fought nobody on a top 100. If he had perhaps he would have lost. We'll never know.

Walker fought the very best available, going past the best in his own divisions to match the best in the biggest division.

"Not in the 20" basically makes a mockery of the term "pound for pound".

[asero]

wilde is timeless for he is the standard for which every flyweight is compared..his legacy continiues to grow with age..i believe that the same thing would go with calzaghe..50 years from now, he would still be top 100 while dela hoya, pryor and trinidad may barely make it..

still, i have no problem with walker ahead of hagler..the best position i could have him is top 20..right now, he still sits in my 21 spot.

just on 2nd thought, do ATG and all-time p4p mean the same thing to you?

[smitty_son408]

Limited Footage, but looking at his resume Top 20 easily.

[Senya13]

Late 20s, no higher.

[sweet_scientist]

I don't rate Walker as high as most because I think he is that type of fighter that didn't have THAT great a level of skill, which meant that he was never dominant in his own weight class where he was facing the most skilled guys.

Walker is primarily great because he was such a hard bastard that he was able to compete well with much bigger guys, who of course, given the higher weight, were not as skillful as the guys at the lower weights.

He's somewhat similar to Emile Griffith and Joe Walcott in that sense. They both could hang with guys that were bigger because they were so tough and strong, but in their own weight class they could get owned by the Lavigne's, Rodriguez's and Napoles.

Faced with bigger lumbering guys they were fine because their less than exquisite skill wouldn't get exposed.

Mickey Walker, in a way, is a better version of James Toney for me. Some people rave about Toney hanging with heavyweights, and that's all well and good, but in his prime weight Roy Jones shut that ass down and he would have done it every time. Simply too much skill for a Toney to handle.

Likewise, put in Walker with skilful welterweights and I think he gets beaten pretty comfortably. Even someone like Whitaker, who is not really a great welter, would probably lead him a merry dance.