Can a case be made for Tyson being the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time?

[Executioner]

what do you think?:think seeing as though how devastating he was in his prime. Shavers gets a whole lot of praise for being #1, but yet his KO ratio over top fighters sucks.

[My dinner with Conteh]

what do you think?:think seeing as though how devastating he was in his prime. Shavers gets a whole lot of praise for being #1, but yet his KO ratio over top fighters sucks.


Tyson was generally better at hitting those top fighters cleanly, that's all.

[My dinner with Conteh]

By the way, I do think Tyson belongs up there with Shavers and a few others.

[Guido]

I never saw Tyson punch a man off the floor the way Foreman did to Frazier, and the way he seemed to effortlessly push Michael Moorer with that right hand, for a 10-count KO.

Foreman will always be the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time to me, with Shavers coming in a close 2nd, and Joe Louis winning 3rd (he had the same speed/power as Tyson, but worked it much better).

[mr. magoo]

Yes, I think a reasonable case can be made, although it will never be written in stone. Tyson's power had a more devastating effect on top raters than that of Foreman's, Shavers, Baer's, Liston's or Frazier's. In 62 pro fights, Trevor Berbick was only KO'd twice, and the first time came in only his 11th pro fight. Against Tyson however, he was a well seasoned fighter coming off of some of his best career wins, and look at how badly Mike demolished him. Who could ever forget Tubbs stumbling across the ring after Tyson nailed him, or The bloodied face of Frank Bruno, who had gone rounds with a number of vicious punchers prior to meeting Mike. What's more, is that most punchers are known for their rights or their lefts, Their overhand punches, uppercuts or whatever. Tyson hurt you with whatever he hit you with, and frankly, I believe this to be the key difference.

[McGrain]

I truley believe that no other heavyweight in history (with the exception of MABEY Max Baer) has/had the devestating power of "Iron" Mike Tyson.

This is probably not true.

He perfectly blended speed with brutal power.

This may be true. That would be my take on the thing.

[McGrain]

Shavers, Foreman, Baer, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Johannson i would pick them all to have better one-punch power but Tyson made this up with his lovely combinations and fast hands.

:good

[Duodenum]

No, not from my perspective. Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker, Douglas, Ruddock II, Holyfield I & II were the first eight matches of his I watched, and he scored a grand total of four knockdowns with no stoppage wins.

Tyson could take a punch. Shavers wasn't particularly durable. He had to do it all with his power alone most fights, not having Tyson's speed or shortness of delivery.

I keep going back to what Leroy Caldwell said. "Shavers hit harder than Foreman and Lyle combined." Ali stated on camera after he retired that Shavers was the hardest puncher he'd ever been hit by, and Larry Holmes concurred, as did Ken Norton. That some boxing fans still rate Foreman's punching power over Earnie's still mystifies me. (Certainly George has the most formidable combination of physical strength and muscular endurance in boxing history, but has any common opponent of both Shavers and Foreman ever given George the edge in punching power?)

[robert ungurean]

He is one of the top few no doubt.

[Marnoff]

You could certainly make the case, thuogh there are a few others who also have a claim.

[ironchamp]

I think what gives Tyson any claim is the fact that he didnt need a particular punch to get the job done. It could have been any punch be it the left hook, straight right, uppercut, etc...

[DamonD]

It's Tyson's speed combined with his power that made him so deadly.
One punch alone, I would not put him at the very top of the tree (just very high up on it).

[justaboxingfan]

I truley believe that no other heavyweight in history (with the exception of MABEY Max Baer) has/had the devestating power of "Iron" Mike Tyson. He perfectly blended speed with brutal power.

Good point:good I would add that his skills played an important role as well. Shavers and Tyson may have had similar raw strength, but Tyson's boxing skills allowed him to incorporate them into his fights which would explain Shavers low KO rate amongst higher opposition.

In that respect, a case can be made for Lennox Lewis, specifically his right overhand.

[Beebs]

You can make the case, I don't think its true, but you can make the case simply because it is such an impossible thing to prove with certainty.

He definitely hit hard and put them in the right places, but I think he is behind Foreman and Liston at the very best

[mr. magoo]

No, not from my perspective. Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker, Douglas, Ruddock II, Holyfield I & II were the first eight matches of his I watched, and he scored a grand total of four knockdowns with no stoppage wins.


You're not exactly listing the man's best performances either. Tillis, and Green fought Tyson when he was 19 years old? Smith clinched his way to the scorecards. Tucker was a durable heavyweight who wasn't KO'd by anybody until he was maybe 37. The Holyfield fights came when both men were shot. Douglas was the worst performance of the guy's career. The man had 44 KO's in 50 wins. I'm sure you can produce better examples.

[Duodenum]

You're not exactly listing the man's best performances either. Tillis, and Green fought Tyson when he was 19 years old? Smith clinched his way to the scorecards. Tucker was a durable heavyweight who wasn't KO'd by anybody until he was maybe 37. The Holyfield fights came when both men were shot. Douglas was the worst performance of the guy's career. The man had 44 KO's in 50 wins. I'm sure you can produce better examples.Well, the thing is that first impressions can be a bitch to shake. I give him total credit though for reunifying a badly splintered heavyweight championship. During the course of his first title run, he eradicated any question of who the most worthy one to hold that title was.

[ChrisPontius]

The Holyfield fights came when both men were shot.

Shot? Tyson put on one of his best performances against Bruno. Well maybe not one of his best, but he looked nothing short of spectacular, powerful, fast and back in action.

As for Holyfield, i think as a fighter he never had a better performance. His reflexes may have been a bit less but he boxed smart, controlled and imposed his will to perfection.

He was shot against McBride. That was 9 years later.


I agree though that Duodenum should watch more fights before judging. Watching only Holmes' fights with Mike Weaver (19-8) and glass chinned Norton would make one think of Holmes as a pretty average champion too.

Duonenum: watch his fights with Berbick, Thomas, Biggs, Holmes, Spinks, Tubbs, Bruno (both), Williams and maybe you'll see the light.
By the way, i know you hated to see it, but you can't tell me you somehow have never seen Tyson-Holmes. :D


I think Tyson hit as hard as anyone.

[Duodenum]

Shot? Tyson put on one of his best performances against Bruno. Well maybe not one of his best, but he looked nothing short of spectacular, powerful, fast and back in action.

As for Holyfield, i think as a fighter he never had a better performance. His reflexes may have been a bit less but he boxed smart, controlled and imposed his will to perfection.I thought his most impressive showings as a heavyweight were against Dokes, and the "Fan Man" win over Bowe.I agree though that Duodenum should watch more fights before judging. Watching only Holmes' fights with Mike Weaver (19-8) and glass chinned Norton would make one think of Holmes as a pretty average champion too.

Duonenum: watch his fights with Berbick, Thomas, Biggs, Holmes, Spinks, Tubbs, Bruno (both), Williams and maybe you'll see the light.Advice duly noted. (Are you trying to convert me back into being a boxing fan?)By the way, i know you hated to see it, but you can't tell me you somehow have never seen Tyson-Holmes. :DNaw, I looked at it as divine payback from Marciano for Larry's jockstrap putdown. However, it didn't escape my attention that Tyson came within five seconds of letting Holmes off the hook, and that Larry would have gotten out of that round if he hadn't caught his right under the top rope. It also didn't escape me that it took Mike over 45 seconds to finally finish it off.I think Tyson hit as hard as anyone.I'm not qualified to dispute Holmes that Shavers, not Tyson, hit him the hardest.

[Executioner]

But Duodenum, you have to keep in mind that Larry got knocked out by Tyson and he beat Shavers so he may be a little biased.

I've noticed some fighters tend to do that.

[AnthonyJ74]

I never saw Tyson punch a man off the floor the way Foreman did to Frazier, and the way he seemed to effortlessly push Michael Moorer with that right hand, for a 10-count KO.

Foreman will always be the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time to me, with Shavers coming in a close 2nd, and Joe Louis winning 3rd (he had the same speed/power as Tyson, but worked it much better).

Foreman didn't literally lift Frazier off the floor. Frazier sort of hopped up after the punch landed. The momentum of the punch combined with Frazier's position worked together at that point , in my opinion. For me, a great example of Tyson's power was the way he knocked down Trevor Berbick twice with one punch. Tyson, in his prime, would hit a guy and the guy would be like paralyzed.

[Duodenum]

But Duodenum, you have to keep in mind that Larry got knocked out by Tyson and he beat Shavers so he may be a little biased.

I've noticed some fighters tend to do that.True, but his assessment of Earnie's punching power agrees with the general consensus among both conquerers and victims of Shavers. Holmes was in there with Shavers, Weaver, Bonecrusher Smith, Witherspoon, Mercer, Cooney and others who had good power. When two HW champions with the background Holmes and Ali share agree on such a topic, I'm not too inclined to readily dismiss it.

[AnthonyJ74]

But Duodenum, you have to keep in mind that Larry got knocked out by Tyson and he beat Shavers so he may be a little biased.

I've noticed some fighters tend to do that.

haha...Larry Holmes is probably one of the most biased fighters ever! The guy has got more excuses that it's almost comical. And many of his fans are just as bad. In the Tyson fight, Larry swore that if his hand didn't get caught in the ropes at the end of the 4th round, he would have knocked Tyson out with that punch. LOL.......

[Duodenum]

Foreman didn't literally lift Frazier off the floor. Frazier sort of hopped up after the punch landed. The momentum of the punch combined with Frazier's position worked together at that point , in my opinion.Exactly. Now Dempsey did, in fact, lift Willard off the floor. We can especially see this in the third round, when Jack's digging in bodyshots. There is no delayed reaction from Willard. Jess's feet hop off the deck in synchronicity with Dempsey's delivery of the blow. (This becomes especially evident when viewing the movie frame by frame.)

As hard as Foreman could hit, I'm not sold on the idea that he could have lifted Valuev off his feet with a bodyshot. But we have the readily available footage of Dempsey doing precisely that to an opponent of similarly greater size. That's why I consider Dempsey to be the hardest hitting heavyweight champion. (On a pound for pound basis, forget about it! No other HW titlist could even begin to approach Dempsey in that department.)

[Duodenum]

haha...Larry Holmes is probably one of the most biased fighters ever! The guy has got more excuses that it's almost comical. And many of his fans are just as bad. In the Tyson fight, Larry swore that if his hand didn't get caught in the ropes at the end of the 4th round, he would have knocked Tyson out with that punch. LOL.......I'm no great admirer of Tyson's, but nobody could have taken him out with one shot when he was in top form. If Larry swore that he would have, then he deluded himself. He only came close to doing that against Weaver. But I do feel that if his hand hadn't got caught in the ropes, that he would have survived that round to be taken out in a later one.

[Executioner]

Larry swore that if his hand didn't get caught in the ropes at the end of the 4th round, he would have knocked Tyson out with that punch. LOL.......



:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[mcvey]

what do you think?:think seeing as though how devastating he was in his prime. Shavers gets a whole lot of praise for being #1, but yet his KO ratio over top fighters sucks.
While Tyson may not have had the one punch power of a Baer or Foreman,his hand speed more than compensated for it,on a par with Dempsey ,and Louis,in fact he may have been the fastest at "pulling the trigger"of the punchers.

[ChrisPontius]

Watch Foreman-Chuvalo and you'll see Foreman physically moving Chuvalo several feet, into the ropes. You can see a similar thing in for instance Lewis vs McCall II where McCall was shoved into the ropes by punches, or the recent Klitschko vs Brewster II where he moved him a few meters by punches that were blocked.

[JohnThomas1]

Tyson's right on the top shelf. It's hard to single anyone out from there, tho Shavers seems to get some milage.

[mattdonnellon]

Tyson is a contender, for sure.

[fists of fury]

I'm in the minority, but I honestly think Tyson was more adept at frazzling nerve endings than George Foreman.
Foreman hit with more tonnage, but Tyson hit with more force.

Berbick was a very durable guy, but Tyson knocked him around from pillar to post, and flattened him with a hook to the head that didn't seem that hard initially. However, the results spoke for themselves.

Pinklon Thomas had never been off his feet, but Tyson put him down for 10. (Albeit with a huge combination.)

Tony Tubbs had never been stopped, but was iced with a single left hook.

Larry Holmes was old sure, but nobody ever kicked the snot out of Larry like Tyson did.

Spinks had never been knocked out, but he looked as if he were shot the way he fell against Tyson.

The durable Bruno was floored within seconds of the opening bell against Tyson in their first fight, and was brutally stopped twice.

Carl Williams has a shaky chin, but nonetheless Tyson flattened him with a single bomb.

Buster Douglas was dropped with a single right uppercut.

Francois Botha had only been stopped once (in the 11th against the heavy-punching Moorer) before getting crushed with a single Tyson right hand.

George was a huge puncher, but how many one-punch KO's did he have, even against journeymen? Even against lowly opposition, he often needed a couple of knockdowns to get the KO.

[mcvey]

Show me footage of Baer or foreman throwing a guy across the ring with a hook.
Baer killed Frankie Campbell,have you seen that finish, he also was responsible fopr Earnie Schaafs death,catching him with a mighty overhand right at the end of the round,Foreman lifted Frazier off his feet twice and propelled Chuvalo backwards,I think that counts!

[Holmes' Jab]

Tyson's right on the top shelf. It's hard to single anyone out from there, tho Shavers seems to get some milage.

Spot on, the same applies to the Lennox Lewis thread regarding this same matter. Both these guys are top tier certs in terms of power, you'd struggle to name five harder hitters.:yep

[ChrisPontius]

Tyson threw them from their feet. McCall didn't even notice those punches landing.

McCall wouldn't notice it if an anvil fell on his head. But that doesn't change the fact that he was moved physically by those punches.

[josak]

Tyson almost KO'd Alonzo Ratliff with a jab ok... a jab. He's shown that he can knock you down or out with just about any punch... bodyshot, lefthook, righthook, straights, uppercuts. I can't say for sure if he's the most "powerful" ever, but he has to be one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest.

[ironchamp]

Tyson almost KO'd Alonzo Ratliff with a jab ok... a jab. He's shown that he can knock you down or out with just about any punch... bodyshot, lefthook, righthook, straights, uppercuts. I can't say for sure if he's the most "powerful" ever, but he has to be one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest.

I think what gives Tyson a case is the fact that, again, it was never a particular punch he needed to get the job done.

Its just about any punch that will do. His versatility and arsenal was impressive moreso than Foreman or Shavers.

I definately put him above

Ruddock,
Lewis,
Frazier,
Louis,
Liston,

But Foreman and Shavers and the only 2 question marks and IMO Tyson had a superior delivery system.

[Icemmann]

FOREMAN Did Not Lift Frazier Off His Feet.

No, but he hit him hard enough to make him bunny hop.

[AnthonyJ74]

No, but he hit him hard enough to make him bunny hop.

That part is true. He hopped after he was hit with a monster shot. But over the years, so many people have built up that one shot from George to make it seem like it was this shooting thunderbolt from the sky that tore Frazier's head off and launched it into orbit...LOL....Reading magazine articles about how George lifted Frazier 6 inches off the canvas with an uppercut, or was it 12 inches? LOL...... funny stuff!

[Bill1234]

Shavers, Foreman, Baer, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Johannson i would pick them all to have better one-punch power but Tyson made this up with his lovely combinations and fast hands.


:good

[Bill1234]

Tyson almost KO'd Alonzo Ratliff with a jab ok... a jab. He's shown that he can knock you down or out with just about any punch... bodyshot, lefthook, righthook, straights, uppercuts. I can't say for sure if he's the most "powerful" ever, but he has to be one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest.

Larry Holmes knocked Ocasio down and hurt him real bad with a jab. Holmes also knocked someone out early in his career with one.

[prime]

This case can be made, statistically and empirically.

Good comments have already been made regarding why Tyson, with 50 wins and 44 knockouts, can be considered the hardest-hitting heavyweight of them all.

Just a couple of thoughts: Tyson had a unique combination of torque, speed and mass and could knock a man out with any hand, unlike Shavers, whose sole killer punch was the overhand right. On a ten scale, I would rate Shaver's left and right hands at 7 and 10, respectively, while Tyson would rate 9 and 9. And this is only considering Shavers' straight right, not his right hook, or uppercut, which were not as effective by a long shot.

Again, Ali, in Tyson's presence, said Mike Tyson was the greatest and enthusiastically claimed he hit harder than Shavers.

[hobgoblin]

Again, Ali, in Tyson's presence, said Mike Tyson was the greatest and enthusiastically claimed he hit harder than Shavers.

That is nothing more than mere formality. It means nothing. Even ignoring the fact that Ali never took a shot from Tyson, I am confident that Ali was being formally nice. He also said Tyson would beat him (and later, rightfully said he'd win easy).

I like Tyson but Joe Louis is incomparably superior as a puncher because he doesn't throw wild, loopy round house punches. He's a thoughtful puncher, mixes his combinations very coherently. I rate Tyson as #2 puncher among HWs (very high) but for pure power alone, he is far from the hardest hitting. First rate power no doubt (it is NOT overrating his power to say that), but not THE most powerful.

[prime]

That is nothing more than mere formality. It means nothing. Even ignoring the fact that Ali never took a shot from Tyson, I am confident that Ali was being formally nice. He also said Tyson would beat him (and later, rightfully said he'd win easy).

I just threw it in because some are mentioning comments by Holmes and others as qualifying exhibits.

[prime]

He also said Tyson would beat him (and later, rightfully said he'd win easy).

He said Tyson would beat him at Tyson's peak and was obviously in awe of Mike, as the rest of the world was. I believe he at the very least knew a fight with a peak Tyson would be a nightmare for him.

Ali said this on the Arsenio Hall show, of course, where he was being adulated on. Imagine, say, Floyd Patterson or James Braddock was champion at that moment and suddenly came onto the set. Do you really believe he would say about them the things he said about Tyson?

Once Tyson self-destructed, it was easy for Ali and even his wife to claim he would win easily, in "one round".