View Full Version : Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Shane Mosley @ 135
Thread Stealer
08-19-2007, 07:28 PM
Interesting matchup.
Mosley is obviously faster, and packs a harder punch as well. Mosley is also a bigger guy than Chavez, as Mosley was a big lightweight who would sometimes weigh around 150 on fight night.
Some may look at the Meldrick Taylor fight @ 140 as evidence that Mosley would beat Chavez, but Mosley wasn't as good on the inside as Taylor, which played a big role in Taylor's success. He was more powerful and sturdy than Taylor though.
Chavez was deliberate and accurate with his punches, and he mixed his combos from body to head with brilliance. He was terrific at cutting off the ring and slipped and rolled with punches effectively. He was a very skilled pressure fighter.
Mosley liked to brawl, he was more of a speedy slugger than pure boxer. I think his brilliant handspeed leads people to think he was more of a boxer, but he was at his best when "power-boxing", trading at quarters rather than boxing on the backfoot. That can lead Shane (or anyone) to trouble against Chavez, but at the same time, you have to pick your spots against Chavez. You have to stand your ground and fight, not merely be on the backfoot the whole time, so maybe that can be a plus for Mosley.
Chavez was more proven against top opposition @ 135 (Rosario shits on anyone Mosley beat @ 135), and also from 130-140, but that doesn't mean Shane can't beat him.
I'd make Chavez a slight favorite to win a decision.
TheGreatest-915
08-19-2007, 07:32 PM
Chavez with a close decision
brooklyn1550
08-19-2007, 07:33 PM
50/50 fight...I like Chavez by decision
BobDigi5060
08-19-2007, 07:35 PM
I posted the exact same thread in the classic forum yesterday. This should no doubt get more responses here :good
Napoleon
08-19-2007, 07:36 PM
I'd pick Mosley by UD.
Andrey
08-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Mosley humiliates and destroys Chavez.
at 135, Chavez wouldn't have a chance.
Andrey
Relentless
08-19-2007, 09:20 PM
mosley beats him, chavez had problem with guys like whitaker and taylor (before the ko) and mosley is faster and hits harder.
Relentless
08-19-2007, 09:23 PM
Yeah Mosley was faster than Taylor. Do you even know anything about boxing?
unlike you i watch it instead of reading about it.
Relentless
08-19-2007, 09:24 PM
Mosley faster than Taylor????:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl You take the prize for the worst poster on ESB:happy :happy :happy how could you have 7,000 posts and come up with something like this:patsch :patsch :patsch :huh :huh :huh
i haven't seen too many of taylors fights but he did not look as fast as mosley to me, mosley has faster and better combinations, also mosley would have never gotten ko'd by chavez.
Relentless
08-19-2007, 09:25 PM
Man this thread is pure comedy gold.
yeh can you believe people saying chavez would beat mosley?
Relentless
08-19-2007, 09:28 PM
Yeah, I actually do watch it, and to say Mosley is faster than Taylor is ridiculous, and to say he would beat Chavez because he had trouble with Whitaker(who fought NOTHING like Whitaker) is ridiculous. Mosley was a brawler, and that didn't work against Chavez.
mosley a brawler??
which mosley fights have you seen apart from the de la hoya one?
mosley beats him, chavez had problem with guys like whitaker and taylor (before the ko) and mosley is faster and hits harder.
Chavez had trouble with both Taylor and Whitaker because they were good movers when they wanted to be. They knew how to use the ring. Mosley is a power puncher at 135, and doesn't fight well IMO off the back foot, but excells at using short, quick movements and combination punching. I watched Mosley have trouble and let inside Phillip Holiday. This fight was at 135. I have no doubt that if he let Holiday get inside, he would do the same thing to Chavez and pay for it. Chavez is just a better fighter then Holiday in every area IMO.
mosley a brawler??
which mosley fights have you seen apart from the de la hoya one?
He isn't a defensive fighter that is for sure, and I wouldn't say he is a mover. He does counter punch and box, but only of small movements, as he prefers to deliver maximum power off his punches, and throw in combinations, which is almost impossible to do when countering off the back foot.
Mosley faster than Taylor????:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl You take the prize for the worst poster on ESB:happy :happy :happy how could you have 7,000 posts and come up with something like this:patsch :patsch :patsch :huh :huh :huh
Thats a bit harsh. Mosley is a very quick also, and difference if even measurable would be only slight. Its not like he said Gatti was as quick as Taylor. I actually think the speed of Taylor is overrated by some(although still obviously very good), and think that Zab would be equally as quick, and that Roy maybe slightly quicker when throwing in combinations.
pipe wrenched
08-19-2007, 09:45 PM
IMO, if Shane got Chavez at the same stage of career as Oscar did (towards quitin time) IMO, Shane would take him. However if he had to fight Chav in his heyday its more pick em for me and wouldn't be able to take a pick i would bet much $$ on. Cool thread by the way.
dave82
08-19-2007, 10:08 PM
Guys i have to go with mosley here by close majority decision. I think Mosley would be too crafty to get koed by Chavez, however at times Mosley likes to trade so it will keep the bout interesting. If he works his combinations i feel it would be enough to frustrate Chavez. Gut feeling tells me it would somewhat similar to Hagler Vs Leonard. I would not bet on this fight
brooklyn1550
08-19-2007, 10:10 PM
Just to settle this, Mosley is NOT faster than Taylor and he doesn't fight as well off the backfoot. He is no Pernell Whitaker either. Chavez would beat him.
Napoleon
08-20-2007, 12:03 AM
Could you tell us why? Not a knock, just a question, how do you think he goes about it? What does he have that will gain him the win over someone like Chavez?
Mosley has a pretty good chin that would help him, and he had great speed. I think he would use his speed which isn't better than Taylors (Meldrick) to outbox Chavez. I would say about 8-4.
dave82
08-20-2007, 12:22 AM
Mosley isn't faster than Taylor.
Mosley does hit harder than Chavez.
Mosley is bigger than Chavez.
Chavez was in his prime at 130lbs.....that is where historians consider him a beast. Not at 135lbs or 140lbs. The Taylor fight is his most popular general fan fight but it acutally marks his decline.
Chavez would be befuddled by Shane's foot and hand speed. Shane isn't Taylor. He is physically bigger, hits harder, and nearly as fast. Shane sits down on his punches Taylor does not.
Chavez couldn't muscle around Pernell who's strength was so underestimated, and his ability to deal with the physical pressure of a strong puncher.
Mosley is FAR STRONGER than Pernell. They would not fight Chavez the same way, but their strength would neutralize Chavez a great deal.
Shane can wear Chavez down from the outside, and when Chavez does get close he would simply overpower him, and with the speed of his Shots he would bust Chavez up.
Chavez chin is FIRST RATE so I don't see a stoppage especially at 135lbs when Chavez was young still. But Shane would dominate him, because Chavez HAS ZERO ADVANTAGES.....ZILCH.....NONE!
Nice post
Taylor has the fastest hands in the history of boxing!!! No Jones and Zab arent comparable, im talking about 10 punch combo in a second. Yes I was a bit too harsh, I just couldnt believe it
To say they aren't comparable is ridiculous. Show me footage of a ten punch combo in a second. Zab and Roy are both extremely fast, especially when zab lets his hands go and when roy throws combinations more conventionally. From the footage I have seen of Taylor I haven't been convinced he is faster then either of these guys. I fully admit though I haven't seen great amounts of Taylor apart from his major fights, so any footage highlighting his speed would be appreciated.
Alo2006
08-20-2007, 12:29 AM
@ 135, gotta go with Mosley by UD
dave82
08-20-2007, 12:32 AM
To say they aren't comparable is ridiculous. Show me footage of a ten punch combo in a second. Zab and Roy are both extremely fast, especially when zab lets his hands go and when roy throws combinations more conventionally. From the footage I have seen of Taylor I haven't been convinced he is faster then either of these guys. I fully admit though I haven't seen great amounts of Taylor apart from his major fights, so any footage highlighting his speed would be appreciated.
I saw a few of his fights and yes he is fast however i have not seen a ten punch combo either. Even IF Mosley is not as fast as Taylor, he was still fast enough to overwhelm Chavez with combinations.
Alo2006
08-20-2007, 12:39 AM
Taylor has the fastest hands in the history of boxing!!! No Jones and Zab arent comparable, im talking about 10 punch combo in a second. Yes I was a bit too harsh, I just couldnt believe it
10 punch combo in a second :nono he wasn't that dayum fast. If that's the case, he should have beat everybody he fought.
4Rounder
08-20-2007, 01:48 AM
Chavez by late TKO, slowly dismantling him until the ref calls it for Mosley.
Relentless
08-20-2007, 07:42 AM
To say they aren't comparable is ridiculous. Show me footage of a ten punch combo in a second. Zab and Roy are both extremely fast, especially when zab lets his hands go and when roy throws combinations more conventionally. From the footage I have seen of Taylor I haven't been convinced he is faster then either of these guys. I fully admit though I haven't seen great amounts of Taylor apart from his major fights, so any footage highlighting his speed would be appreciated.
i doubt this guy has seen taylor fight, he is going by things that he has heard.
digiram
08-20-2007, 08:17 AM
This truly would've been a treat. Prime4Prime at 135, I like Chavez by close UD.
In fact Mosley used to spar with Chavez at some point.
I see a clear UD for Mosley in this fight.
Mosley was too strong for 135..remember he went 8(8)-0 in title defenses and was considered the most dominant champ since Duran. He had power, speed and debilitating body punching.
Chavez had a great chin and an equally effective bodypunching stlye. Both never took a backward step but Chavez had issues with speedsters and I see a similar fight to Taylor-Chavez I, only with Mosley winning on points.
Remember, even Taylor was able to stay right in front of Chavez for twelve rounds - only that Mosley has a far better chin than Taylor.
sweet_scientist
08-20-2007, 10:15 AM
Mosley isn't faster than Taylor.
Correct.
Mosley does hit harder than Chavez.
Rubbish he does. Who is the best fighter Mosley has stopped? An old Vargas and an old Molina.
Mosley is bigger than Chavez.
Not by all that much imo. Mosley just stacked himself with muscle to get up to 154. In terms of frame and bones, I wouldn't say he was much bigger than Chavez.
Chavez was in his prime at 130lbs.....that is where historians consider him a beast. Not at 135lbs or 140lbs. The Taylor fight is his most popular general fan fight but it acutally marks his decline.
His best display happened at 135. That's wher ehe was at his best imo.
Chavez would be befuddled by Shane's foot and hand speed. Shane isn't Taylor. He is physically bigger, hits harder, and nearly as fast. Shane sits down on his punches Taylor does not.
Chavez was offset by Taylor's workrate more than he his speed imo. It wasn't merely Taylor's speed that kept Chavez puzzled, it was the fact that he punched pretty much non stop. He would have no such problem with Mosley, who does not have the workrate that Taylor has. Chavez would welcome a guy that throws as many punches as him, irrespective of their speed, and Mosley is no Taylor in that department either.
Chavez couldn't muscle around Pernell who's strength was so underestimated, and his ability to deal with the physical pressure of a strong puncher.
Mosley is FAR STRONGER than Pernell. They would not fight Chavez the same way, but their strength would neutralize Chavez a great deal.
But Pernell also had superb infighting skills which allowed him to hurt Chavez and block or evade Chavez's retaliating shots. Mosley is no where near as educated on the inside and if he fights Chavez there he will be catching plenty more than Pernell did.
Shane can wear Chavez down from the outside, and when Chavez does get close he would simply overpower him, and with the speed of his Shots he would bust Chavez up.
Wear Chavez down from the outside? How?
As I said, I don't think Shane is more powerful either. On the contrary, I think he packs less power.
Chavez chin is FIRST RATE so I don't see a stoppage especially at 135lbs when Chavez was young still. But Shane would dominate him, because Chavez HAS ZERO ADVANTAGES.....ZILCH.....NONE!
Chavez has a better chin, he has a better body attack, he has a better defense, he has more precise punches and more power than Shane.
sweet_scientist
08-20-2007, 10:20 AM
Taylor not only was quicker, but his workrate was what won him the fight against Chavez. Mosley looks to hit you with combos when you come into to him after boxing you from the outside, but against someone who gives you no choice but to throw back or fight off the back foot like Chavez, Mosley wouldn't be able to play his game. He doesn't throw off 4-8 punch combos for an entire fight and constantly outland his opponents. Mosley was a power-boxer, Taylor had an insane workrate, and could go the whole fight doing what he did, which is why he was ahead on points. Without a workrate like that and being forced to play someone else's game, I believe Mosley wouldn't be leading on points at all.
Spot on.
Was Chavez an old man at the time? Only thing I can think of.
Dominating against his lame competition. Seriously, his competition was not worthy of top 15 LW material. He is not a top 15 LW in my book, and certainly wasn't even close to as good a LW as Whitaker.
Taylor not only was quicker, but his workrate was what won him the fight against Chavez. Mosley looks to hit you with combos when you come into to him after boxing you from the outside, but against someone who gives you no choice but to throw back or fight off the back foot like Chavez, Mosley wouldn't be able to play his game. He doesn't throw off 4-8 punch combos for an entire fight and constantly outland his opponents. Mosley was a power-boxer, Taylor had an insane workrate, and could go the whole fight doing what he did, which is why he was ahead on points. Without a workrate like that and being forced to play someone else's game, I believe Mosley wouldn't be leading on points at all.
No, Mosley does not have a far better chin than Taylor had at that time, you're talking out of your ass. Also, again, Mosley didn't fight like Taylor, he didn't have the speed or warkrate to outland his opponent 2 or 3 to 1 like Taylor was doing.
This a good post, but don't spoil it by disrespecting me.
On your points:
True that Mosley is not a combination puncher that Taylor was but those combos Taylor threw, though crisp, never hurt Chavez. Imagine if it was Mosley who was able to land flush like that.
My point is what Mosley lacked in combination punching (which isn't much) he would make it up with power - enough to discourage Chavez.
Workrate is not enough against harder punchers (see Taylor-Norris), especially if your chin is suspect. Mosley had a great workrate at 135. He only got problems when he started carrying more weight (147)...so he was no slouch at 135.
I raised the sparring issue as a hint, not as who would win - I never saw the footage.
On Mosley's chin..there's no way Chavez can shake Mosley like he did Taylor.
Guru_Too_You
08-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Mosley isn't faster than Taylor.
Mosley does hit harder than Chavez.
Mosley is bigger than Chavez.
Chavez was in his prime at 130lbs.....that is where historians consider him a beast. Not at 135lbs or 140lbs. The Taylor fight is his most popular general fan fight but it acutally marks his decline.
Chavez would be befuddled by Shane's foot and hand speed. Shane isn't Taylor. He is physically bigger, hits harder, and nearly as fast. Shane sits down on his punches Taylor does not.
Chavez couldn't muscle around Pernell who's strength was so underestimated, and his ability to deal with the physical pressure of a strong puncher.
Mosley is FAR STRONGER than Pernell. They would not fight Chavez the same way, but their strength would neutralize Chavez a great deal.
Shane can wear Chavez down from the outside, and when Chavez does get close he would simply overpower him, and with the speed of his Shots he would bust Chavez up.
Chavez chin is FIRST RATE so I don't see a stoppage especially at 135lbs when Chavez was young still. But Shane would dominate him, because Chavez HAS ZERO ADVANTAGES.....ZILCH.....NONE!
I agree here Requiem.
Taylor wasnt just beating Chavez, he was DOMINATING him. While Mosley isnt as fast as Taylor, his handspeed would still be the deciding factor in the bout. As far as Mosley boxing off the back foot, his footspeed would still be good enough to get in and out like he often does. Granted he likes to square up and go toe to toe, but he would obviously steer away from it in this bout and even if he didnt, his chin and body would most likely hold up for 12 rounds, and his handspeed would ultimately be the difference in the bout.
I'd say Mosley from 9-3 to 7-5.
sweet_scientist
08-20-2007, 01:40 PM
Let me give you guys a clue......DLH would outbox Chavez at 135lbs and Shane would do the same but in a different style.
Shane would stand his ground more. Chavez IS NOT BIGGER than Shane....he can't muscle him, he can't hurt him with one punch. And Shane NOT a good inside fighter?
I can tell you PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT SHANE AS A FIGHTER.......SHANE SPARRED WITH CHAVEZ AS A FUCKING TEENAGER!
Shane sparred all the GREAT MEXICAN STARS when they came to Cali to train that is where he picked UP ON HIS INSIDE FIGHTING AND HIS BODY PUNCHING!
I am so tired of you bunch of IGNORANT as kids who just started watching the sport 3 years ago.
Shane was sparring Nelson when he 14 yrs old and MAKING PEOPLE OOOH and A[Only registered and activated users can see links] they watched.
Shane considered by most Cali writers and many East Coast writers as one of the GREATEST gym fighters ever.
As his sparring sessions at the now close LA Boxing Club are LEGENDARY.
Not a good inside fighter? YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
LMFAO@the Chavez-Mosley sparring. Chavez was taking the last ten seconds of each round seriously, nohing more. Anyone that has seen the footage could see that.
dave82
08-20-2007, 07:05 PM
Crafty?!?! What is crafty about Mosley? Please explain. You're acting like he would go the Whitaker route when that's not his game at all. Are you the guy who said he would beat Duran like SRL did as well?
No you twat! I said i have a feeling it would be something similar to Leonard and Hagler. I never mentioned Whitaker. And no i didn't, i actually i favoured Duran by a narrow decision.
dave82
08-20-2007, 07:34 PM
Since when has Shane ever been a mover and pot-shotter? He has never in his life fought anything like Leonard did in that fight. He doesn't fight like that, so what makes you think he will this time? If he tries to do a style he never has before, chances are he won't be very successful.
I believe Shane @ 135 was talented enough to change his style and pull it off.
Correct.
Rubbish he does. Who is the best fighter Mosley has stopped? An old Vargas and an old Molina.
Not by all that much imo. Mosley just stacked himself with muscle to get up to 154. In terms of frame and bones, I wouldn't say he was much bigger than Chavez.
His best display happened at 135. That's wher ehe was at his best imo.
Chavez was offset by Taylor's workrate more than he his speed imo. It wasn't merely Taylor's speed that kept Chavez puzzled, it was the fact that he punched pretty much non stop. He would have no such problem with Mosley, who does not have the workrate that Taylor has. Chavez would welcome a guy that throws as many punches as him, irrespective of their speed, and Mosley is no Taylor in that department either.
But Pernell also had superb infighting skills which allowed him to hurt Chavez and block or evade Chavez's retaliating shots. Mosley is no where near as educated on the inside and if he fights Chavez there he will be catching plenty more than Pernell did.
Wear Chavez down from the outside? How?
As I said, I don't think Shane is more powerful either. On the contrary, I think he packs less power.
Chavez has a better chin, he has a better body attack, he has a better defense, he has more precise punches and more power than Shane.
Great post. Owned
dave82
08-20-2007, 07:39 PM
That makes no sense, it is a nuthugger's opinion, surely you see that. That's like me saying Chavez could fight like Ray Robinson if he wanted to.
Based on his style, he could not beat Chavez. You're gonna make up that he changes his style, which he's never done before, and beat an ATG that way? That's reaching very far, surely you see that.
Ok dude, you win end of arguement.
I believe Shane @ 135 was talented enough to change his style and pull it off.
Whe has Shane ever changed his style. His biggest downfall in fact in his major losses has been his lack of ability to adapt to his opponents style when he is losing.
Let me give you guys a clue......DLH would outbox Chavez at 135lbs and Shane would do the same but in a different style.
Shane would stand his ground more. Chavez IS NOT BIGGER than Shane....he can't muscle him, he can't hurt him with one punch. And Shane NOT a good inside fighter?
I can tell you PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT SHANE AS A FIGHTER.......SHANE SPARRED WITH CHAVEZ AS A FUCKING TEENAGER!
Shane sparred all the GREAT MEXICAN STARS when they came to Cali to train that is where he picked UP ON HIS INSIDE FIGHTING AND HIS BODY PUNCHING!
I am so tired of you bunch of IGNORANT as kids who just started watching the sport 3 years ago.
Shane was sparring Nelson when he 14 yrs old and MAKING PEOPLE OOOH and A[Only registered and activated users can see links] they watched.
Shane considered by most Cali writers and many East Coast writers as one of the GREATEST gym fighters ever.
As his sparring sessions at the now close LA Boxing Club are LEGENDARY.
Not a good inside fighter? YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
Req your basing your post on legends and myths, not things that you have actually seen. When I watch Mosley fight throughout his career it is obvious he is not a great in-fighter. He is adequate, good even, but not great, and he is never going to be better on the inside then Chavez, Whitaker or even Cotto for that matter. He is going to do his best work tagging them as they come in. He isn't a great mover, and he isn't going to KO a guy like Chavez on the way in. If he stays on the inside with one of the best inside fighters in boxing he would get beaten. Taylor was confusing Chavez with flurries of punches in close. He was throwing in 5-6 punch combinations. Shane for the most part doesn't do this, and prefers to load up his punches. He is still a good combination puncher, but not to the extent that taylor was, and not with the workrate or the movement that Taylor had.
sweet_scientist
08-21-2007, 12:18 AM
No one but Jack Mosley has the vast footage of Shane's saprring sessions. There are only little bits of sparring footage that is in the publics hands.
Shane HAD GYM WARS with these guys.......YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THAT FOOTAGE!
DO NOT LIE!
You have seen one or two clips of Shane training with Chavez at an event sparring session. Or you have seen him working with Chicanito when he was preparing for his title fight.
If you think that ENCOMPASSES SHANES SPARRING FROM THE AGE 13 to right before he turned PRO.........THEN YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
So you're telling me Shane had gym wars with the likes of Nelson and Chavez when he was a teenager? :lol: They both would have mashed Shane to a pulp if they took him seriously.
Shane might be a great gym fighter and had some great sparring sessions with others, but I just don't see him holding his own against the best fighters in the world at the time when he was only a teenager. If you believe that, then you're the idiot.
sweet_scientist
08-21-2007, 12:23 AM
Well, Shane is his cousin after all. :lol:
I'd like to hear some specifics about Shane's gym wars. I'm sure Requiem's had a close look through Jack's vast sparring video library :D
it's a bad style matchup for Chavez because of Mosley's power and physical strength at the weight...Mosley was a HUGE 135 with speed and power, so Chavez would have to take severe punishment just to land his own power in spots...if Chavez puts the money in the bank early with lefts to the body, he could wear down Mosley late...but i can't see how Chavez is going to get in without eating massive shots in combos, not 1-punch at a time...unlike Taylor, Mosley could combo with power and there's no way Chavez can take Mosley's shots the way he took Taylor's...Mosley UD or late stoppage if Chavez wants to keep eating hard shots to get close...but something tells me Chavez would be smarter than that...:good
Boom_Boom
08-21-2007, 12:26 AM
Mosely by 2 wide decisions and with one judge reaching out of his ass for Chavez scoring it a draw
It would look similiar to Taylor/Chavez only Mosely wouldnt allow himself to get hit as much.
dave82
08-21-2007, 12:30 AM
I think a fight between Reggie Strickland and a peak Mike Tyson would look like Douglas's fight with Tyson.
You just have a response for everyone who thinks Mosley would win. You made your point earlier now fuck off.
sweet_scientist
08-21-2007, 12:30 AM
it's a bad style matchup for Chavez because of Mosley's power and physical strength at the weight...Mosley was a HUGE 135 with speed and power, so Chavez would have to take severe punishment just to land his own power in spots...if Chavez puts the money in the bank early with lefts to the body, he could wear down Mosley late...but i can't see how Chavez is going to get in without eating massive shots in combos, not 1-punch at a time...unlike Taylor, Mosley could combo with power and there's no way Chavez can take Mosley's shots the way he took Taylor's...Mosley UD or late stoppage if Chavez wants to keep eating hard shots to get close...but something tells me Chavez would be smarter than that...:good
Come on man, it took Shane 8 or 9 rounds to dispense of shot versions of Leija and Molina, I'm pretty sure Chavez could take anything Shane throws at him.
So you're telling me Shane had gym wars with the likes of Nelson and Chavez when he was a teenager? :lol: They both would have mashed Shane to a pulp if they took him seriously.
Shane might be a great gym fighter and had some great sparring sessions with others, but I just don't see him holding his own against the best fighters in the world at the time when he was only a teenager. If you believe that, then you're the idiot.
I didn't even read that bit... Would love to see a 13 year old in a gym war with some of boxings best.
sweet_scientist
08-21-2007, 12:34 AM
I didn't even read that bit... Would love to see a 13 year old in a gym war with some of boxings best.
:lol:
Well, Shane had people ooohing and aaahhhing as a 14 year old against Azumah Nelson Requiem tells us, and the footage I've seen of Mosley sparring Chavez was when he was a thin little kid and Chavez was mucking about with the band playing in the background.
Come on man, it took Shane 8 or 9 rounds to dispense of shot versions of Leija and Molina, I'm pretty sure Chavez could take anything Shane throws at him.
Leija was basically in survival mode the whole night against Mosley, and still got stopped...and Molina went the distance with DLH at 135...Taylor had the right style, but not the firepower to keep Chavez off...Mosley definitely had the firepower...
Thread Stealer
08-21-2007, 12:40 AM
Leija was basically in survival mode the whole night against Mosley, and still got stopped...and Molina went the distance with DLH at 135...Taylor had the right style, but not the firepower to keep Chavez off...Mosley definitely had the firepower...
But does Mosley have the style?
His workrate and in-fighting skills are inferior to that of Taylor.
dave82
08-21-2007, 12:42 AM
:lol: You conceded that I was right and you were wrong.
I have not such a big point with people who say he wins, but people who bring up arguments that don't make sense, such as the argument that this fight would look just like Taylor/Chavez, except there would be no knockout. Shane and Taylor are both quick and black, that is where the comparisons end. This fight would not be like that one.
I don't care if you right or if i'm wrong, and if you are right then fuck it i learn something new everyday. You do make good arguements and i do not underestimate your knowledge. I still believe Mosley takes via close decision.
But does Mosley have the style?
His workrate and in-fighting skills are inferior to that of Taylor.
how much workrate do you need with superior power? i'm trying to see how you think Chavez will just come inside on Shane without being severly punished with multiple powershots that will land BEFORE Chavez lands...and Shane will also come after Chavez and put Chavez on his backfoot where he's not nearly as effective...Chavez was effective against Taylor because he was able to eat 3 to land 1, he can't do that with Mosley...
hahaha.... settle down Req. You are taking it a touch to serious. Just think about it logically for a second. If a fully matured Shane Mosley would be in for the fight of his life against these fighters, how could a 13-14 year old be giving them hell in the gym. Look, i can't refute the fact that he may have sparred them, but surely you must realise they weren't going hard on the kid. If he was getting beaten by an Amatuer version of Stevie Johnston, how the hell would he be beating up a prime Chavez?
I never said Shane kicked Nelson's ass or Chavez's ass.
I said at the age 14, 15, and 16 (a teenager), they had to FIGHT HARD, they couldn't take it easy.
Shane was RAMBUNCTIOUS he was always looking to make a statement in the gym. Look at Shane's fight as he was coming up in the pros.....Shane got those KO's because HE WANTED THEM.
He didn't have lackadasical performances because he WAS SO COMPETITIVE.
But why don't you CONTACT writers who witnessed his gym wars. Why do you SIMPLY BLOW IT OFF?
Because you don't want to be proven wrong.
I am not saying take my word......get other opinions from people that were there.
The only reason I don't contact the writers is because I have better things to do with my time. Logic tells me that a kid, in the body of a kid, with the experience of a kid, couldn't make an ATG fighter in his prime fight hard in a sparring session. Thats my opinion. Once again your entitled to believe what you want. Its the sort of thing I wouldn't believe unless I saw it with my own eyes.
sweet_scientist
08-21-2007, 09:42 AM
They are not myths or legends.
I spent part of my summers as kid with my uncle james who's family lived in Pomona, Shane and his parents lived in Laverne at the time. I got to go to the now CLOSED LA BOXING CLUB.....which is now the LA BOXING ACADEMY and is on Sante Fe AVE in Downtown.
I went to the amteur contests Shane had during the summer months and ohters. I saw Shane lose to Stevie Johnston. I also saw him lose to Antonio Diaz's older brother.
You can contact the OLD TIME WRITERS of Southern California to GET THIS INFO FROM THEM if you don't want to believe me.
BUT WILL YOU DO THAT?
Nope.......you will play IGNORANT!
All you have to do is contact them.....they have e-mail addresses.
Contact Dougie Fischer or Steve Kim. Contact Kevin Iole out of Las Vegas.
Shane was THE #1 AMATEUR IN THE COUNTRY for like 4 years.
Everyone expected him to go to the olympics, he had been a star since he was preteen.
You don't have to take my word for it. You can just ask others who were there as well.
Whether you want to believe it or not. Shane's gym wars are REAL and they are LEGENDARY.
What was Shane's ORIGINAL NICKNAME?
You don't know.
They called him "The Little Proffesional" because of his dedication, because he fought like a pro at an early age, he had such impeccable technique, inside and out.
Who gave Shane the Sugar NICKNAME?
It wasn't Shane.
It wasn't his dad.
It wasn't his mom.
You don't know because you were not there.
Who was the first person to call Shane SUGAR?
He got it from the people in the gym...but who was the first person to call him that?
There is your homework little buddy.
I don't mind you saying Chavez would kick Shane's ass if you believe it, but for you to say that Shane's Gym wars are LIES....IS AN OUTRAGE!
For you to say Shane did not LEAVE people speechless when he was a teenager and was able to MORE THAN JUST HOLD HIS OWN.....he made elite pros have to really fight in their sparring sessions IS AN OUTRAGE!
Shane's history as a young phenom is NOT MYTH or LEGEND it is REAL.
LMFAO@ me being intimidated because you know Shane's original nickname and who dubbed him Sugar. Could give two fucks pal.
All I'm saying is that Shane would have had his ass handed to him if he was taking on a prime Nelson and Chavez as a kid. He might have had some good tussles with people in and around his age group that were elite fighters, but he would have been decimated if fighters like Nelson and Chavez took him seriously in their hey day. I don't have to contact Doug Fischer or Steve Kim, I just have to contact Common Sense.
Interesting matchup.
Mosley is obviously faster, and packs a harder punch as well. Mosley is also a bigger guy than Chavez, as Mosley was a big lightweight who would sometimes weigh around 150 on fight night.
Some may look at the Meldrick Taylor fight @ 140 as evidence that Mosley would beat Chavez, but Mosley wasn't as good on the inside as Taylor, which played a big role in Taylor's success. He was more powerful and sturdy than Taylor though.
Chavez was deliberate and accurate with his punches, and he mixed his combos from body to head with brilliance. He was terrific at cutting off the ring and slipped and rolled with punches effectively. He was a very skilled pressure fighter.
Mosley liked to brawl, he was more of a speedy slugger than pure boxer. I think his brilliant handspeed leads people to think he was more of a boxer, but he was at his best when "power-boxing", trading at quarters rather than boxing on the backfoot. That can lead Shane (or anyone) to trouble against Chavez, but at the same time, you have to pick your spots against Chavez. You have to stand your ground and fight, not merely be on the backfoot the whole time, so maybe that can be a plus for Mosley.
Chavez was more proven against top opposition @ 135 (Rosario shits on anyone Mosley beat @ 135), and also from 130-140, but that doesn't mean Shane can't beat him.
I'd make Chavez a slight favorite to win a decision.
I see chavez taking a whoopin from Shane , shane sat down on his punches more and was a bit stronger then Taylor and more disciplined.
I think shane pac enough pop,speed strength at 135 that Chavez does not attempt to walk through shane but fight more cautious .. Shane by UD
Rosario had power similar to Shane, and proved himself agaimst better opposition than Shane, and he got beat around the ring by Chavez. Meldrick's amazing workrate is what off-set Chavez, nobody with power(up until his old man years) ever really gave him trouble. It took either a very slick boxer like Whitaker or someone with an incredible workrate that could outland him like Taylor to beat him(or else if we wanna do ATG matchups someone like Duran, who was just better). Mosley's workrate isn't high enough, even if his power is better than Taylor's, it won't offset Chavez because Chavez had at least as much power with probably a better chin than even Mosley.
I disagree , shane is a strong dude and his power is different then Rasario's
Rasario was a heavy handed fighter but had a slow delivery system, shane on the other hand delivers his shot by using pure velocity, and coupled with the added bonus that he could land 5 of the shouts at a time .
Chaves even though he was a very accurate puncher would often take 3 to land 2 which as I remember his bread and butter punches where a right hand to the head followed by a left to the body , which was very effective for him , but he did that coming forward , I just don't think that would work against someone as strong as shane , freakishly strong at 135 at that.
shane by UD
Asterion
08-21-2007, 12:34 PM
Very close fight.
Mosley was like a small Roy Jones at Lightweight. Chavez was unstoppable but didn't campaign much time in that weight class.
Shane by SD.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 09:35 PM
Rosario had power similar to Shane, and proved himself agaimst better opposition than Shane, and he got beat around the ring by Chavez. Meldrick's amazing workrate is what off-set Chavez, nobody with power(up until his old man years) ever really gave him trouble. It took either a very slick boxer like Whitaker or someone with an incredible workrate that could outland him like Taylor to beat him(or else if we wanna do ATG matchups someone like Duran, who was just better). Mosley's workrate isn't high enough, even if his power is better than Taylor's, it won't offset Chavez because Chavez had at least as much power with probably a better chin than even Mosley.
It doesn't matter how much you argue most people are goin with Shane, and for good reason. Shane may not have the in fighting skills or handspeed of Taylor but he has really fast hands and has more power than Taylor had. You can't compare him to Rosario because Rosario didn't have Shane's foot movement. Chavez didn't have the footwork to cut off the ring and I think Shane would not just brawl but would use movement to make Chavez look bad. All the people who beat Shane were bigger than him, Chavez is not bigger than him.
Ramshall1
08-22-2007, 09:47 PM
the fight would probably be best at 140, Id give a slight edge to Chavez. . . Shanes best shot would be to pitter pat and run but that just aint who he is and God bless him for it. Not saying he would be dumb enough to brawl with Chavez but he would stand in enough to get worn down to the body.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 09:54 PM
Chavez is the same size. Chavez can take whatever Shane throws and stay on him. Shane DOES NOT have any kind of extra special footwork, he's pretty stationary.
Again, I have given the analysis on this fight. Yes, Shane has fast hands, though not as fast as Taylor's, he had more power. The thing is, his workrate was nowhere near Taylor's. Taylor's constant workrate and handspeed is what threw Chavez off, and why he was out-pointing him. Shane will fight on the outside, wait for you to come in, and throw combos, and back off. Against Chavez, that won't be the case, because Chavez will stay on him. Shane won't be able to constantly throw like Taylor without gassing, and he won't be able to throw Chavez off with one combo as he does others. He will be pressed the whole fight and worn down. He didn't have what it took to constantly throw at Taylor's rate.
People acting like he would do what Taylor did with more power and better chin are fucking delusional, if that were the case, he beats anyone ever. He doesn't have near the workrate, wouldn't be able to constantly throw without gassing, as he has shown in the past, and doesn't have the in-fighting skills. Chavez by UD or even late TKO.
In the fight against De La Hoya in the early rounds Shane was using good foot movement. It gave De La Hoya problem's so why wouldn't it give Chavez problems. And your saying Shane Chavez are the same size. Shane in his prime was 5'9 135, Chavez's prime was 5'7 130.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 10:08 PM
Chavez was in his prime at 135 as well.
And no I didn't see Shane giving Oscar much problem moving in their fight, Oscar was stalking, Shane got the best of him as th efight progressed because Oscar was basically a robot doing the same thing, and Shane's style and aggression in the exchanges threw him off. If Chavez could adapt to Taylor's style, he could surely adapt to Shane's, and also, Chavez was surely better at stalking and cutting off the ring than Oscar, so I don't see where that point came from.
When was Chavez better at cuttin off the ring and stalking a fast fighter? The only person he cut off the ring well on was Camacho and that was because Camacho was shot by the time he fought him. If they fought at 130 Camacho would have beat him.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Alright let's not listen to you anymore, you're a bit off. As good as Camacho was, you saw what happened when he got rocked, which he almost certainly would against Chavez, he started holding and running. Chavez would do what Rosario did but more effectively.
And anyone who thinks De La Hoya was better at cutting off the ring and pressuring an opponent than Chavez is a bit whacky.
I'm talking about a fighter with real speed and movement like a Whitaker or a younger Camacho. I'm not talking about cuttin off the ring against Greg Haugan or Rosario.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 10:17 PM
Alright let's not listen to you anymore, you're a bit off. As good as Camacho was, you saw what happened when he got rocked, which he almost certainly would against Chavez, he started holding and running. Chavez would do what Rosario did but more effectively.
And anyone who thinks De La Hoya was better at cutting off the ring and pressuring an opponent than Chavez is a bit whacky.
And Manny Stewerd said Julio didn't have the footwork to really cut off the ring.
Sonny Carson
08-22-2007, 10:48 PM
OK, so when did De La Hoya show the ability to do that? Chavez showed it against everyone he ever fought other than Whitaker when he was slightly past his best(then again, NOONE can argue that Shane's mastery of the ring even compares to Whitaker). Otherwise it didn't matter about speed, his ability to cut you off was superb.
I don't know what Manny is talking about, watch him fight. And again, Shane has never shown me great movement.
And Chavez has never cut off the ring against anybody with good or great movement except for an out of prime Camacho. He got outboxed by Frankie Randall twice. The guy's he fought in the 80's weren't movers. When he fought guy's with movement he had trouble.
dave82
08-23-2007, 02:05 AM
And you have this idea that because Taylor and whitaker didn't fight like Shane that must mean that the way to beat Chavez was to fight the way they fought.
But that is completely false. They only show that Chavez was vulnerable to those styles if you had their talent. Otherwise any boxer would be able to outbox Chavez, but that wasn't the case.
Shane would beat Chavez differently because he has different strengths and skills.
:happy :happy :happy :happy :happy :happy :happy
sweet_scientist
08-23-2007, 03:32 AM
Again young fool! You can deny all you want. These are not myths they are FACTS, as they were witnessed by numerous CREDIBLE people. You don't have to take my word.....you can ask a MULTITUDE of West Coast writers about these sparring sessions.
And no one said Shane kicked their ass.....what was said is that Nelson, Hernandez, Chavez and many many others could not fight at half speed against a teenage Shane Mosley.
He was already bigger than them though he not fully matured obviously. No one is saying he beats them in a real fight without head gear.
What is being said is that Shane's legend started in those gyms against elite fighters, as a TEENAGER.
None of your BULLSHIT changes that. Eyewitness accounts are SO NUMEROUS IT IS RIDICULOUS! Anytime they talk about Shane, whether it is Iole, Fischer, Kim, Gerbasi, Raskin, and numerous others THESE SESSIONS ARE MENTIONED.
But some dumb fuck that just started watching the sport 3-5 years ago, who didn't even see Taylor-Chavez live.....is going to tell those of us who were there what happened.
They could not fight at half speed with a teenage Mosley? What does that mean? Are you saying that Shane held his own with Chavez and Nelson when they were going full bore with him in the gym and he was only a teenager at the time?
For all of your boasting you have given fuck all of specifics about what went down. You've boasted of irrelevant shit like knowing Mosley's nick names and as such. Who cares?
And of the footage of Chavez-Mosley sparring that I've seen Mosley didn't look all that young but he was WAY smaller than Chavez there.
As for insinuating that I'm young and new to the sport, please man, I've seen great fighters you haven't even HEARD about.
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