How Cobb could have beaten Holmes if they had fough in 1905

[janitor]

A lot of posters recently have been citing the outcomes of fights on the resumes of fighters from the 1900s/1910s for and against the fighters in question without taking acount of the circumstances.

I am making this thread to show people exactly how carefull you have to be when looking at results from this period. I am therfore going to list a number of mechanisms by which Tex Cobb could have beaten Larry Holmes or held him to a draw in this period based on their actual fight. AQll of the scenarios described below are based on actual fights of the period.

1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

2. Holmes is contracted to knock Cobb out.

In this scenario the contract states that Cobb will automaticaly be awarded the decission if Holmes does not score a knockout.

3. Holmes wears the cuffs.

Holmes being a black fighter has to fight for chicken feed and in order to secure a payday against Cobb he has to agree to go easy on him. This is not an unusual ocurance and virtualy all top black fighters of the period are known to have done this at one time or another.

4. Holmes takes a dive.

The only way Holmes stands to make any money in this fight is to agree to lie down. Whether he did so in this fight he would almost certainly end up doing so at some point in his career.

5. Holmes is simply beaten.

Incredible as it may sound this is not an impossible scenario. A lot of fighters of this period started fighting fringe contenders and contenders at a point in their career when they were not eating regular meals. If Holmes hasnt eaten in the last two days he will runout of steam and get stopped.

6. Cobb is awarded the decision or Holes is DQd.

This is also possible. When referres of this period feared crowd violence they often rendered the decision that the crowd wanted to avoid trouble. Intimidation against fighters and referres was commonplace. It is also possible that Holmes might be forced into options 3 or 4 by threats of violence.

[mcvey]

A lot of posters recently have been citing the outcomes of fights on the resumes of fighters from the 1900s/1910s for and against the fighters in question without taking acount of the circumstances.

I am making this thread to show people exactly how carefull you have to be when looking at results from this period. I am therfore going to list a number of mechanisms by which Tex Cobb could have beaten Larry Holmes or held him to a draw in this period based on their actual fight. AQll of the scenarios described below are based on actual fights of the period.

1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

2. Holmes is contracted to knock Cobb out.

In this scenario the contract states that Cobb will automaticaly be awarded the decission if Holmes does not score a knockout.

3. Holmes wears the cuffs.

Holmes being a black fighter has to fight for chicken feed and in order to secure a payday against Cobb he has to agree to go easy on him. This is not an unusual ocurance and virtualy all top black fighters of the period are known to have done this at one time or another.

4. Holmes takes a dive.

The only way Holmes stands to make any money in this fight is to agree to lie down. Whether he did so in this fight he would almost certainly end up doing so at some point in his career.

5. Holmes is simply beaten.

Incredible as it may sound this is not an impossible scenario. A lot of fighters of this period started fighting fringe contenders and contenders at a point in their career when they were not eating regular meals. If Holmes hasnt eaten in the last two days he will runout of steam and get stopped.

6. Cobb is awarded the decision or Holes is DQd.

This is also possible. When referres of this period feared crowd violence they often rendered the decision that the crowd wanted to avoid trouble. Intimidation against fighters and referres was commonplace. It is also possible that Holmes might be forced into options 3 or 4 by threats of violence.

These scenarios would all be possible unless the subject was Jack Johnson ,to imply they could have occured in one of his bouts means you are guilty of "man love", according to Mendoza.

[janitor]

These scenarios would all be possible unless the subject was Jack Johnson ,to imply they could have occured in one of his bouts means you are guilty of "man love", according to Mendoza.

These scenarios are what boxing in that period revolved around.

To expect a fighter from this period to have a record like Joe Louis simply isnt realistic.

[McGrain]

I agree with the spirit of the post. Quite apart from anything else, it should be noted that Holmes might have fought two days before this bout. He might get elbowed in the eye and lose his eye. It was rougher and tougher. Larry, with all his talent, would still be considered a great had he turned pro in 1900, but he'd have weird losses for the reasons you lay out, and others.

[Minotauro]

Probably via dq for no reason ala Walcott vs Dixie Kid. Assuming the ref would but money on Cobb.

[Boilermaker]

Would Holmes breaking his hand on Cobbs head be a possibility with the smaller gloves?

[Russell]

Would Holmes breaking his hand on Cobbs head be a possibility with the smaller gloves?

Most definitely.

Shaver's was hitting Cobb so hard Tex's body was literally spinning like a top. He just kept resetting himself and moving forwards. :nut

[dmille]

1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

A no-decision is not a draw. A no-decision is just that. The press would have given their opinion of who really won, hence the term "newspaper decision".

[janitor]

A no-decision is not a draw. A no-decision is just that. The press would have given their opinion of who really won, hence the term "newspaper decision".

I didnt state that it was a no decision bout though I can see how what I wrote was confusing.

I stated that "the contract dictated that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place".

Some contracts of the period stipulated that a draw would automaticaly be given if a knockout didnt take place.

[djanders]

A lot of posters recently have been citing the outcomes of fights on the resumes of fighters from the 1900s/1910s for and against the fighters in question without taking acount of the circumstances.

I am making this thread to show people exactly how carefull you have to be when looking at results from this period. I am therfore going to list a number of mechanisms by which Tex Cobb could have beaten Larry Holmes or held him to a draw in this period based on their actual fight. AQll of the scenarios described below are based on actual fights of the period.

1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

2. Holmes is contracted to knock Cobb out.

In this scenario the contract states that Cobb will automaticaly be awarded the decission if Holmes does not score a knockout.

3. Holmes wears the cuffs.

Holmes being a black fighter has to fight for chicken feed and in order to secure a payday against Cobb he has to agree to go easy on him. This is not an unusual ocurance and virtualy all top black fighters of the period are known to have done this at one time or another.

4. Holmes takes a dive.

The only way Holmes stands to make any money in this fight is to agree to lie down. Whether he did so in this fight he would almost certainly end up doing so at some point in his career.

5. Holmes is simply beaten.

Incredible as it may sound this is not an impossible scenario. A lot of fighters of this period started fighting fringe contenders and contenders at a point in their career when they were not eating regular meals. If Holmes hasnt eaten in the last two days he will runout of steam and get stopped.

6. Cobb is awarded the decision or Holes is DQd.

This is also possible. When referres of this period feared crowd violence they often rendered the decision that the crowd wanted to avoid trouble. Intimidation against fighters and referres was commonplace. It is also possible that Holmes might be forced into options 3 or 4 by threats of violence.

Excellent post, Janitor! So true!

[kenmore]

I won't comment on how how Cobb would have done in a hypothetical 1905-style bout with Holmes. I will say however that the press has always been unreasonably harsh in judging Cobb's 1982 performance against Holmes. Sure, Cobb lost the fight in one-sided fashion, but he was never hurt and he always pressed forward. He survived 15 rounds againt one of history's greatest champions. All in all, I think Cobb put on a gritty and competent losing effort that night.

[dmille]

I didnt state that it was a no decision bout though I can see how what I wrote was confusing.

I stated that "the contract dictated that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place".

Some contracts of the period stipulated that a draw would automaticaly be given if a knockout didnt take place.

You originally stated that the contract stipulated a no-decision, so how would it have been a draw?

[janitor]

You originally stated that the contract stipulated a no-decision, so how would it have been a draw?

The draw would not be a decision. It would be the automatic result of neither fighter scoring a knockout.

[ChrisPontius]

7. The fight is scheduled for 45 rounds. Although i personally think Cobb's life would be in serious danger had he had to take 10 more rounds of that, there is a possibility, even if far fetched, that Holmes would tire and Cobb could take over. It be more like winning a marathon (while being punched in the nose) rather than winning a boxing match to me, but that's how thing used to be.... sort of.

Shorter gloves would limit Holmes' punch output and increase the chance of him breaking his hands, but on the other hand, it would be more likely to cut, bruise and inflict serious damage on Cobb.

[Maxmomer]

You originally stated that the contract stipulated a no-decision, so how would it have been a draw?

He means no decision as in a decision would not be given either way, it would be called a draw. Not a no decision in that the fight would a no-decision. You see?

[Mendoza]

A lot of posters recently have been citing the outcomes of fights on the resumes of fighters from the 1900s/1910s for and against the fighters in question without taking acount of the circumstances.

I am making this thread to show people exactly how carefull you have to be when looking at results from this period. I am therfore going to list a number of mechanisms by which Tex Cobb could have beaten Larry Holmes or held him to a draw in this period based on their actual fight. AQll of the scenarios described below are based on actual fights of the period.

1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

2. Holmes is contracted to knock Cobb out.

In this scenario the contract states that Cobb will automaticaly be awarded the decission if Holmes does not score a knockout.

3. Holmes wears the cuffs.

Holmes being a black fighter has to fight for chicken feed and in order to secure a payday against Cobb he has to agree to go easy on him. This is not an unusual ocurance and virtualy all top black fighters of the period are known to have done this at one time or another.

4. Holmes takes a dive.

The only way Holmes stands to make any money in this fight is to agree to lie down. Whether he did so in this fight he would almost certainly end up doing so at some point in his career.

5. Holmes is simply beaten.

Incredible as it may sound this is not an impossible scenario. A lot of fighters of this period started fighting fringe contenders and contenders at a point in their career when they were not eating regular meals. If Holmes hasnt eaten in the last two days he will runout of steam and get stopped.

6. Cobb is awarded the decision or Holes is DQd.

This is also possible. When referres of this period feared crowd violence they often rendered the decision that the crowd wanted to avoid trouble. Intimidation against fighters and referres was commonplace. It is also possible that Holmes might be forced into options 3 or 4 by threats of violence.

Janitor,

No way, that fight is a draw. Draws are different from ND's which did not allow a decision. NDs in world heavyweight title fights are very rare, and Holmes vs Cobb was exactly that.

Holmes won every round vs Cobb. Holmes might have stopped him if the rounds kept going. Holmes had great stamina, beyond 15 rounds for sure.

As for Holmes taking a dive, he had to deal with the yoke of Don King, and Larry himself was not one to play ball.

One thing that has not changed in over 100 years is fighters, fans and managers continue to make excuses for losses. Sometimes the excuses have merit, but most of the time they do not.