Overrated/ underrated fighters here on ESB

[Luigi1985]

Name a list with fighters who you think are here on ESB overrated and underrated and explain why, here are some personal examples from me:


Overrated:

Sonny Liston, surely an ATG, but when I read that many here have him in theit Top 3 ATG HW´s... he looked great when he was a contender, but to look great against old, washed up ex-contenders like Valdes, or fighters with padded records like C. Williams it´s a difference than against the elite fighters...

Muhammad Ali, definitely one of the greatest ever, that´s out of question, but here on ESB the legendary sentence " The pre-exile Ali was much faster, much better in every area, etc.", head-to-head very overrated IMO, for every KD or defeat there exists another excuse...

Larry Holmes, also an ATG, no doubt, but his title reign was very poor, he had so many problems with fighters like a green Witherspoon, old Norton, Williams, etc...



Underrated:


Rocky Marciano, "he beat only washed up LHW´s", total bullshit, everyone who has footage of a prime Moore or Charles knows that the versions who fought Marciano were almost peak, many say he weighed only 183 lbs and wouldn´t have a chance against a decent SHW, etc...


James J. Jeffries, he dominated his era and defeated very good opposition like Sharkey, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, etc., if he wouldn´t have been so stupid and arrogant and would have fought Johnson, he would get the respect now he deserves...

Joe Frazier, he defeated everyone in spectacular fashion, incl. prime Ali, the Foreman- defeats were his problem, now I read often things like "Frazier was shaky, look what Foreman did to him, every big puncher in history would do that" and shit like that...

[McGrain]

Overated: Marciano. Sorry Luigi, I just can't see it. I really think the guy would get his head handed to him by a lot of ATG fighters. A good fighter but nothing like as good as guys make out.

Underated: James J Braddock. He's always being talked about like one of the weaker champs. But that winning streak he went on just before his retirement spoke of a different fighter than the one with all those loses. He's a fine example of what can be turned up if you dig under the surface a wee bit.

I also think Sugar Ray Leonard is rather underated. Although maybe "hated" is a better word.

[Luigi1985]

Overated: Marciano. Sorry Luigi, I just can't see it. I really think the guy would get his head handed to him by a lot of ATG fighters. A good fighter but nothing like as good as guys make out.

Underated: James J Braddock. He's always being talked about like one of the weaker champs. But that winning streak he went on just before his retirement spoke of a different fighter than the one with all those loses. He's a fine example of what can be turned up if you dig under the surface a wee bit.

I also think Sugar Ray Leonard is rather underated. Although maybe "hated" is a better word.

:D

You don´t need to excuse you, McGrain, everyone has an own opinion, which I respect, IMO it seems so that Marciano is getting underrated, some years ago it was exactly the other way, some friends said for example that he was the best because "he never lost and was 49-0-0", than I was also a bit angry and responded that fighters like Nielsen were also 49-0-0, that´s not important, etc., but like I wrote, for me, Rocky is now really getting underrated, when I read always comments like that Tye Fields would easily destroy Rocky in one single round, or that Valuev would KO him because he´s so big, etc...

[NickHudson]

I hear you Luigi, comments about Valuev beating Marciano are best left ignored, to disappear into the cyber-void forever...

:D

You don´t need to excuse you, McGrain, everyone has an own opinion, which I respect, IMO it seems so that Marciano is getting underrated, some years ago it was exactly the other way, some friends said for example that he was the best because "he never lost and was 49-0-0", than I was also a bit angry and responded that fighters like Nielsen were also 49-0-0, that´s not important, etc., but like I wrote, for me, Rocky is now really getting underrated, when I read always comments like that Tye Fields would easily destroy Rocky in one single round, or that Valuev would KO him because he´s so big, etc...

[Luigi1985]

I hear you Luigi, comments about Valuev beating Marciano are best left ignored, to disappear into the cyber-void forever...


:yep

[Holmes' Jab]

Overated: Marciano. Sorry Luigi, I just can't see it. I really think the guy would get his head handed to him by a lot of ATG fighters. A good fighter but nothing like as good as guys make out.

Underated: James J Braddock. He's always being talked about like one of the weaker champs. But that winning streak he went on just before his retirement spoke of a different fighter than the one with all those loses. He's a fine example of what can be turned up if you dig under the surface a wee bit.

I also think Sugar Ray Leonard is rather underated. Although maybe "hated" is a better word.


A largely superb post.

I actually place Marciano reasonably high in my Top 10 HW list but that's taking into consideration all factors- especially the 49-0, not all wins were against bums either. He would, however rank a great deal lower from a head-to-head viewpoint, it must be said.

Braddock does get some undeserved flack here, ditto SRL, though as you say (especially concerning the later) it's mostly down to people "personality hating" ...

[Luigi1985]

Another candidate would be Pernell Whitaker, every close fight was a "robbery" and every defeat there exists excusses, whether about his "bad" performances I read never something...

[JohnThomas1]

Another candidate would be Pernell Whitaker, every close fight was a "robbery" and every defeat there exists excusses, whether about his "bad" performances I read never something...

Well there's no doubt he beat Ramirez and Chavez. The man went 13 years without being beaten in reality, it'd be hard to overrate him. DLH was a close fight, but jeez Whitaker was on the slide by then and if anything should be lauded for his effort regardless. Totally disagree on this one.

[BoppaZoo]

here is my list of Overated and Underated fighters on this board.

Overated
Winky Wright
Felix Trinidad
Jack Johnson
Mike McCallum
Primo Carnera
But may i add that i do not like saying any fighter is Overated because it takes balls to be a Pro Boxer. But i hate hearing about people drum these fighters above up.

Underated.
Floyd Patterson
Mike Tyson (always gets crap on here but all i will say if it wasnt for Iron Mike 75% of boxing fans today wouldnt be around it was thanks to Mike that there are so many fans today)
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Kostya Tszyu (just wish he wuld get more respect on this board)
Carlos Monzon
Ricardo Lopez
Joe Calzaghe
Marvin Hagler
Fighting Harada
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
and i could go on and on but they will do for a start.

[Luigi1985]

Well there's no doubt he beat Ramirez and Chavez. The man went 13 years without being beaten in reality, it'd be hard to overrate him. DLH was a close fight, but jeez Whitaker was on the slide by then and if anything should be lauded for his effort regardless. Totally disagree on this one.


Even the best fighter in history can be overrated. In fantasy matchups, where also Whitaker is, I read from so many nut hugging-fans always the same: "Whitaker would be too tricky and too slick, wide UD for him", even against fighters who were much better at 147 lbs. (legacy-wise), that´s what I mean...

[Luigi1985]

here is my list of Overated and Underated fighters on this board.

Overated
Winky Wright
Felix Trinidad
Jack Johnson
Mike McCallum
Primo Carnera
But may i add that i do not like saying any fighter is Overated because it takes balls to be a Pro Boxer. But i hate hearing about people drum these fighters above up.

Underated.
Floyd Patterson
Mike Tyson (always gets crap on here but all i will say if it wasnt for Iron Mike 75% of boxing fans today wouldnt be around it was thanks to Mike that there are so many fans today)
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Kostya Tszyu (just wish he wuld get more respect on this board)
Carlos Monzon
Ricardo Lopez
Joe Calzaghe
Marvin Hagler
Fighting Harada
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
and i could go on and on but they will do for a start.


Sorry, but that´s a horrible list. Tyson, Foreman, Calzaghe underrated? And Carnera overrated? Who overrate him? Most fans think he was a bum who was controlled by the mob...

[JohnThomas1]

Even the best fighter in history can be overrated. In fantasy matchups, where also Whitaker is, I read from so many nut hugging-fans always the same: "Whitaker would be too tricky and too slick, wide UD for him", even against fighters who were much better at 147 lbs. (legacy-wise), that´s what I mean...

Well that's a far cry from what you originally posted, but much easier to follow.

[Sweet Science]

The fighter who is the most underrated and at the same time most overrated is Lennox Lewis. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground with peoples opinions on him. People either dismiss him as having a weak chin, or then theres the remainder, who claim he was the best thing since sliced bread and rate him as a top 5 heavy.

[Luigi1985]

Well that's a far cry from what you originally posted, but much easier to follow.


With the "excusses" I simply meant that some fanboys change it the way they like/ need it, every defeat was a robbery and every close fight he won was a master performance...

IMO Whitaker was a real master boxer, legacy-wise very good and head-to-head also very good, but for me very overrated on ESB...

[BoppaZoo]

Sorry, but that´s a horrible list. Tyson, Foreman, Calzaghe underrated? And Carnera overrated? Who overrate him? Most fans think he was a bum who was controlled by the mob...and what makes you such a f-ing expert. like i said i hate overating fighters but the fact remains all those i listed are Underated.

Tyson is spoken on this board as a fighter that was only good for 4 years. but everyone forgets that if it wasnt for Tyson boxing would not have as many fans as they got from him and him alone in the 80's.

Foreman for me has always been Underated i mean at 50 he gave a Prime Holyfield the fight of his life.

Calzaghe has been a Champ for ten solid years and still even after he busts up Lacy still doesnt get respect off the Yankees on this sight.

Horrble list my ass yours was a horrible list.

[Luigi1985]

and what makes you such a f-ing expert. like i said i hate overating fighters but the fact remains all those i listed are Underated.

Tyson is spoken on this board as a fighter that was only good for 4 years. but everyone forgets that if it wasnt for Tyson boxing would not have as many fans as they got from him and him alone in the 80's.

Foreman for me has always been Underated i mean at 50 he gave a Prime Holyfield the fight of his life.

Calzaghe has been a Champ for ten solid years and still even after he busts up Lacy still doesnt get respect off the Yankees on this sight.

Horrble list my ass yours was a horrible list.


Tyson is in almost every Top10 HW´s list, so what? With Foreman the same, George had a poor career, beside beating Frazier twice, what did he? During his comeback-tour he beat only bums, against Holyfield he showed a good performance, but it was also a clear loss, against Moorer it was even worse, he was brutally beaten up, until the lucky punch, read at General Boxing Forum, Calzaghe is very overrated, some people favours him even against SRR... And with Carnera, why is he overrated? Everyone I know who has a bit boxing knowledge says that he´s underrated, btw, I didn´t play the expert, I only said my opinion, than don´t write in a forum, a forum is there to discuss...

[JohnThomas1]

With the "excusses" I simply meant that some fanboys change it the way they like/ need it, every defeat was a robbery and every close fight he won was a master performance...

IMO Whitaker was a real master boxer, legacy-wise very good and head-to-head also very good, but for me very overrated on ESB...

By "every defeat" you make it sound like they were plentiful. Even counting the Ramirez robbery he lost 4 fights in his entire life, 3 of them in his last 4 fights when well up in weight, well past his prime and 2 vs two of the greatest fighters of the day.

From a sensible perspective it's common knowledge Ramirez was a robbery, nobody debates the Tito scoring and DHL was a very close fight. So we have 4 defeats of which only 2 are debated at all (every defeat was a robbery) Blind Freddy knows 1 was a robbery and the other can be lightly debated from any angle. Not an out and out robbery either way.

I respect you consider Pernell overrated, we all have our opinions.

[Sweet Science]

Most underrated fighter on ESB is Naseem Hamed. People love to hate him.

Most overrated is Joe Calzaghe - he has beaten a 1 dimentional overhyped Lacy. Futhermore, he likes to slap.

[Luigi1985]

By "every defeat" you make it sound like they were plentiful. Even counting the Ramirez robbery he lost 4 fights in his entire life, 3 of them in his last 4 fights when well up in weight, well past his prime and 2 vs two of the greatest fighters of the day.

From a sensible perspective it's common knowledge Ramirez was a robbery, nobody debates the Tito scoring and DHL was a very close fight. So we have 4 defeats of which only 2 are debated at all (every defeat was a robbery) Blind Freddy knows 1 was a robbery and the other can be lightly debated from any angle. Not an out and out robbery either way.

I respect you consider Pernell overrated, we all have our opinions.


It´s the way people explain their thaughts, when someone favours Pernell against Duran and I ask them why, they respond that he normally beat Chavez, although Duran is twice that what Chavez was, IMO, when it comes to Whitaker, some people are getting unrealistic...

[fists of fury]

Tyson is spoken on this board as a fighter that was only good for 4 years. but everyone forgets that if it wasnt for Tyson boxing would not have as many fans as they got from him and him alone in the 80's.

Foreman for me has always been Underated i mean at 50 he gave a Prime Holyfield the fight of his life.

Calzaghe has been a Champ for ten solid years and still even after he busts up Lacy still doesnt get respect off the Yankees on this sight.

Horrble list my ass yours was a horrible list.

Tyson is rated fairly overall by the posters here I think. There are exceptions, but aren't there always?

Foreman was 42 when he challenged Evander. Great achievement nonetheless, but I thought I'd point that out.

In Calzhage 's case it's got to do with him being protected for most of his career. The US is the mecca of the boxing world, yet Joe has continually sought the sancitude of his own country. He knows the score.
If he wanted to impress the Yanks, he should have fought in the States.

[BoppaZoo]

im going off what the fans think on this board.

Yes they Underate
Tyson
Foreman
Calzaghe
etc
and what i was trying to get across is that these guys deserve more respect.
and what i meant about
Carnera
is that the only reason he got a shot was because he was big and because of the mob.
he was talented at all thats why he i overated.

and what i meant by my whole thread i the boxers i mentioned deserve more respect and the ones i say are overated well i would hardly call them overated at all like i said i dont like overating fighters at all but if i had to make a list thats it.

Get over it.

[BoppaZoo]

Tyson is rated fairly overall by the posters here I think. There are exceptions, but aren't there always?

Foreman was 42 when he challenged Evander. Great achievement nonetheless, but I thought I'd point that out.

In Calzhage 's case it's got to do with him being protected for most of his career. The US is the mecca of the boxing world, yet Joe has continually sought the sancitude of his own country. He knows the score.
If he wanted to impress the Yanks, he should have fought in the States.yeah can i just say by you saying that why dont you ask PBF the last time he left his country.

[McGrain]

im going off what the fans think on this board.

Yes they Underate
Tyson.

Don't you think they overate him too? I mean a lot of guys have him at #1 all time heavyweight, some even have him #1 all time p4p.

[JohnThomas1]

During his comeback-tour he beat only bums, against Holyfield he showed a good performance, but it was also a clear loss, against Moorer it was even worse, he was brutally beaten up, until the lucky punch

Tell me, just say Marciano somehow came back 17 years after retiring say, and beat the linear champ, either Ali or Frazier, whatever one after being schooled for round after round before pulling out the big Suzie Q, you'd not think much of it? Granted he didn't get thru Holy, Tyson or Lewis and lady luck had smiled upon him but it's a pretty good effort.

[JohnThomas1]

It´s the way people explain their thaughts, when someone favours Pernell against Duran and I ask them why, they respond that he normally beat Chavez, although Duran is twice that what Chavez was, IMO, when it comes to Whitaker, some people are getting unrealistic...

It all boils down to personal perception i guess. I don't know anyone that can routinely predict nowaday fights with any solid success let alone trying to pick these ones. It's great fun to try tho, of course, and at the end of the day all we can do is put forth the more solid debate.

[Luigi1985]

Tell me, just say Marciano somehow came back 17 years after retiring say, and beat the linear champ, either Ali or Frazier, whatever one after being schooled for round after round before pulling out the big Suzie Q, you'd not think much of it? Granted he didn't get thru Holy, Tyson or Lewis and lady luck had smiled upon him but it's a pretty good effort.

I was really happy when Foreman KO´d Moorer, although I´m a Moorer-fan, but to be honest, Foreman resume is pretty thin, his comeback was great, no doubt, but all in all his legacy isn´t that impressive in contrast to other ATG´s...

[BoppaZoo]

Don't you think they overate him too? I mean a lot of guys have him at #1 all time heavyweight, some even have him #1 all time p4p.Thats what i mean some overate some underate.

the fans that have Tyson #1 all time well we already know they are the nuthuggers but me i wish Tyson just got more respect from the fans point of view.

Because over here in Australia there was probably 2 men that got people into boxing in the 80's.

1. Mike Tyson
2. Jeff Fenech

Some Loath Tyson some Love him. Me i thank him for making boxing a exciting time while he was in it.

Me i have Tyson number 7 all time at Haevyweight.

[McGrain]

Because over here in Australia there was probably 2 men that got people into boxing in the 80's.

1. Mike Tyson
2. Jeff Fenech

Some Loath Tyson some Love him. Me i thank him for making boxing a exciting time while he was in it.

Yeah, he was big news alright.

Me i have Tyson number 7 all time at Haevyweight.

It's reasonable, I have him at 9.

[BoppaZoo]

I was really happy when Foreman KO´d Moorer, although I´m a Moorer-fan, but to be honest, Foreman resume is pretty thin, his comeback was great, no doubt, but all in all his legacy isn´t that impressive in contrast to other ATG´s...Foreman proved to me by beating one of the better Heavyweights all time in Joe Frazier that he deserves respect. and who comes back at 42 and KO's a young gun like Moorer.

Goerge Foreman Love him and his bloody Grill.:yep

[BoppaZoo]

Yeah, he was big news alright.



It's reasonable, I have him at 9.i have no problem when people have Tyson at in there top ten.
Top 5 is a bit rich but i hate the people that come out and go he wouldnt be in my top 20.

Thats what piss's me off.

[BoppaZoo]

Legacy-wise doesn't do much for head to head though. I would take most of the top WW's to beat him, but he would beat some.Spot On styles make fights.

I think Whitaker is were he should be. probably 9 P4P all time and probably the best fighter between 1988 until 1996. i would never overate or underate Sweet Pea.

Top fighter with a drug problem.

He has a great list of names.

[fists of fury]

yeah can i just say by you saying that why dont you ask PBF the last time he left his country.

That makes no sense at all. Why the heck should he leave the States? To prove to the people in Wales he's a good fighter?
As I said, the US is the mecca of boxing.

[BoppaZoo]

That makes no sense at all. Why the heck should he leave the States? To prove to the people in Wales he's a good fighter?
As I said, the US is the mecca of boxing.Its the Mecca according to Americans.

Its funny you know Carlos Monzon made a career from fighting not in the USA. but we dont here about him being overated.

Yet Calzaghe has left his country twice once going to Germany and the other time to Denmark.

Whats wrong with PBF fighting Hatton in say UK. where they would make more money and probably fill a 80,000 seater Wembley stadium.

Hell you dont need to fight in the USA to make the most money that is a myth.

Tszyu vs Lieja sold 34,000 tickets at Melbournes Telstra Dome.
Tszyu vs Mitchell sold 9,000 tickets at Phoenix sad.

Imagine How many tickets Hatton Mayweather would sell in th UK. yet in the states They just fill a 20,000.

Its a Myth Calzaghe vs Kessler will sell more tickets than Hopkins vs Wright did.

Just staing the truth its a myth that the USA believe if you dont fight in the USA you are no body and cant make money yet Calzaghe has looked pretty happy making all that money so far.

Its all a Myth.

[Minotauro]

Overrated: Whitaker while I agree he is an all time great I believe some are blinded by favoritism towards him. In head to head sense I remember people picking him over Napoles and they refuse to understand other arguments for Armstrong or Duran beating him rather just claim it would never happen.

Roy Jones while an extremely talented fighter people believe the guy could beat anyone what did he do at 160lbs for people to believe he could beat Monzon. And he had one heavyweight fight yet people think he could beat Dempsey and Marciano.

Underrated: Holman Williams I have said this before that he doesn’t get enough credit for example as seen in a recent thread about him and only like three people replied. Not only is he underrated but the guy is just plain ignored which is surprising since Burley gets a lot of attention.

Barbados Demon Joe Walcott people where finally understanding what a great fighter he was and then I read that Zab Judah would tko him at welterweight. What has Zab shown to make people believe he could finish Walcott, beat Spinks? If the guy said Zab will use his speed and box to a decision I still don't see it but it could happen but finish a guy who in his prime took shots from Langford and stayed up.

[Robbi]

Overrated: Whitaker while I agree he is an all time great I believe some are blinded by favoritism towards him. In head to head sense I remember people picking him over Napoles and they refuse to understand other arguments for Armstrong or Duran beating him rather just claim it would never happen.

Roy Jones while an extremely talented fighter people believe the guy could beat anyone what did he do at 160lbs for people to believe he could beat Monzon. And he had one heavyweight fight yet people think he could beat Dempsey and Marciano.

Underrated: Holman Williams I have said this before that he doesn’t get enough credit for example as seen in a recent thread about him and only like three people replied. Not only is he underrated but the guy is just plain ignored which is surprising since Burley gets a lot of attention.

Barbados Demon Joe Walcott people where finally understanding what a great fighter he was and then I read that Zab Judah would tko him at welterweight. What has Zab shown to make people believe he could finish Walcott, beat Spinks? If the guy said Zab will use his speed and box to a decision I still don't see it but it could happen but finish a guy who in his prime took shots from Langford and stayed up.

I'd take Whitaker over anyone at lightweight. However, welterweight is an entirely different story altogether. Duran, Armstrong, Hearns, Leonard, Robinson, and Napoles would all probably have beaten him. Curry and Mosley have a 50/50 chance of beating him.

Whitaker's reflexes deteriorated noticeably when he moved into the welterweight division. The added weight made his style less effective, although he could still hand out boxing lessons from time to time. He could no longer dominate his opponents enough to warrant wide shut out decisions. He was punching it out more than usual, and getting hit a bit more often. Their were some exceptions, Chavez, Vasquez, and De La Hoya.

[Ezzard]

Well, imo Tyson and RJJ are massivly overrated because of their exciting style. Still great but some people just are too much of a fan.

For me it seems Monzon gets a it underrated nowadays. A year ago he was nearly universally accepted as the number one mw but right now his stock seems to fall with many.

Agreed

[Ezzard]

Overrated on internet sites in general...

Tyson
Marciano
Roy Jones
Ikeabuchi

[Bill1234]

Well, Lewis and Tyson definately have the biggest diversities in opinions, and are the most controversial. But in general, and in all of boxing, overrated Tyson, Jones Jr, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, and George Foreman are overrated. Underrated, Rocky Marciano is slowly becoming underrated, same with Willie Pep, IMO Larry Holmes puts up with crap that he wouldn't get if he didn't say some of the things he said.

[mcvey]

Name a list with fighters who you think are here on ESB overrated and underrated and explain why, here are some personal examples from me:


Overrated:

Sonny Liston, surely an ATG, but when I read that many here have him in theit Top 3 ATG HW´s... he looked great when he was a contender, but to look great against old, washed up ex-contenders like Valdes, or fighters with padded records like C. Williams it´s a difference than against the elite fighters...

Muhammad Ali, definitely one of the greatest ever, that´s out of question, but here on ESB the legendary sentence " The pre-exile Ali was much faster, much better in every area, etc.", head-to-head very overrated IMO, for every KD or defeat there exists another excuse...

Larry Holmes, also an ATG, no doubt, but his title reign was very poor, he had so many problems with fighters like a green Witherspoon, old Norton, Williams, etc...



Underrated:


Rocky Marciano, "he beat only washed up LHW´s", total bullshit, everyone who has footage of a prime Moore or Charles knows that the versions who fought Marciano were almost peak, many say he weighed only 183 lbs and wouldn´t have a chance against a decent SHW, etc...


James J. Jeffries, he dominated his era and defeated very good opposition like Sharkey, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, etc., if he wouldn´t have been so stupid and arrogant and would have fought Johnson, he would get the respect now he deserves...

Joe Frazier, he defeated everyone in spectacular fashion, incl. prime Ali, the Foreman- defeats were his problem, now I read often things like "Frazier was shaky, look what Foreman did to him, every big puncher in history would do that" and shit like that...
Overated
Hopkins.
Underated
SR Leonard.Giardello,J Johnson.

[True Writer]

Overated on this site:

Harry Greb - Bigtime - has anyone seen more than 2-3 of his fights
Ali - Great fighter but here you can't say a bad word about him
Larry Holmes - Fought in a terrible era and was dropped like a bitch too many times
Floyd Patterson - Would have been a great lightheavy, no chin at all!
Sonny Liston - Good fighter top 15-20 heavy no better than that based on his actual career, not the mythical one that has grown.
Sam Langford - might have been great but how can we tell, no footage.

[Robbi]

Overated on this site:

Harry Greb - Bigtime - has anyone seen more than 2-3 of his fights
Ali - Great fighter but here you can't say a bad word about him
Larry Holmes - Fought in a terrible era and was dropped like a bitch too many times
Floyd Patterson - Would have been a great lightheavy, no chin at all!
Sonny Liston - Good fighter top 15-20 heavy no better than that based on his actual career, not the mythical one that has grown.
Sam Langford - might have been great but how can we tell, no footage.

To my knowledge, Holmes was dropped twice in his prime, and three times against Tyson in the one night. Hardly "too many times".

[Boro chris]

The most interesting case is Calzaghe(on this site speciffically) . Pre Lacy and even up to about half a year ago he was utterly despised and underated, but now since the Kessler fight was announced there seems to be an upswell of hysteria in his favour. I mean real top 20 p4p stuff!
If he beats Kessler, look for his fans start to clamour for atg p4p top 10 staus! If he looses he's an overated euro-bum.

RJJ is overated imo, not that he wasn't excellent, its just that after Hopkins and Toney he settled down to decent but unspectacular opposition. His lack of ambition allways rankled with me. If you can beat greats like those two early in your career, why not carry on seeking the best opposition for your legacy possible?

Barry Mcguigan will become underated. He's undeserving of a HOF placement so people could well hold that against him and down value his achievements as a result.

Naseem Hamed is underated because of his personality (he's an asshole!). He's got a superb list of scalps but people only seem to want to remember his loss to MAB who was the one atg he fought.(Surely one of the most popular wins of all time,even many Brits were cheering that result!)

[True Writer]

Ali was a great fighter - but not god.
Holmes - I'm not even going to comment on him again he is simply overated.
Sam Langford - might have been great but we just don't know. Looking at his resume does not prove that much as we can't actually see his fights. I am not saying he's not a great but I cant see how some people can place him above so many other great fighters having never seen him fight.

[jonesjrp4p1]

overrated: pac, duran, marciano

underrated: lewis

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano gets overrated some years, than a major underated draft comes in. So he flip flops. In the 90's he was pretty over rated. But come 2000 and up. We see people claiming he was a no one, and should not be in the top 30 all time heavyweights. One said before the crash, said top 100, and made a top list of heavyweights that were better than Marciano. Yes both Spinks brothers, Bruce Seldon, and others were rank over Marciano in that list.

[jhar26]

The fighter who is the most underrated and at the same time most overrated is Lennox Lewis. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground with peoples opinions on him. People either dismiss him as having a weak chin, or then theres the remainder, who claim he was the best thing since sliced bread and rate him as a top 5 heavy.
Well, he revenged his only two losses and otherwise won the key fights of his career against the best fighters of his era if and when they were willing to get into the ring with him. There's not much more he could have done.

[McGrain]

overrated: pac, duran, marciano

underrated: lewis



Yeah, I totally agree.

[Bill1234]

Holmes - I'm not even going to comment on him again he is simply overated.

The best you had on him was he was dropped by 2 people, and by 2 right hands that would have KO'd most other people. Other than that, you have nothing.

[Zakman]

The most overrated fighter on this site, bar none, is Lennox Lewis. He's the ONLY top level HW champ to get taken out early twice by ordinary contenders when he held the title and yet many people rate him higher than Holyfield and Tyson, even though he fought them both when their skills had noticeably diminished.

Bowe has actually become somewhat underrated. People seem to have forgotten just how talented he was at his peak, however brief it may have been. In fact, he may have had the most natural talent of all four of the top guys of the era - he just had the least dedication. But at his best, he was a great fighter, far greater than he gets credit for in some quarters.

[laxpdx]

Underrated: Tony Ayala. Given his immense raw talent and a rage to match, that guy was unstoppable.

[JohnThomas1]

The best you had on him was he was dropped by 2 people, and by 2 right hands that would have KO'd most other people. Other than that, you have nothing.

Never one to knock Larry's unreal recuperation, but the Snipes right hand wouldn't have ko'ed jackshit let alone "most other people". Snipes barely ever stopped anyone with one punch, certainly not to my memory and definitely not a top opponent. He did sit Berbick on his ass, which tells us his best right can certainly sit people down, but KO? Not likely.

[El Bombasto]

most overrated fighter here on esb?

whitaker without a doubt (thanks to 2 or 3 major nut hugger posters here)

[red cobra]

Another candidate would be Pernell Whitaker, every close fight was a "robbery" and every defeat there exists excusses, whether about his "bad" performances I read never something...
Luigi, I used to feel the same way, but I've slowly and grudgingly come to realize that the Pea was never really beaten in his prime, and that he did indeed beat Julio Cesar Chavez and WAS outrageously robbed of the victory that night. I've been watching alot of his fights on ESPNClassic lately, and it seems that he beat whoever they put in front of him, slugger or sytlist, it made no difference. Of course, in my opinion, aside from Chavez and De la Hoya, there were not many greats of the level of Duran, Leonard, Hearns, etc., on his resume, but that cannot be held against him, because he fought who was there, and available. It wasn't his jabbing, or any other punch in his arsenal that was his strong suit, but that uncanny defense that drove everyone crazy. I still fell that Duran would have hunted him down with his crazy, animal blend of speed, intensity, power, relentless stamina and killer instinct. Anyone short of Duran he was the master of. Benitez-era Sugar Ray Leonard would have been another potential crisis for the Pea, but to hell with all of that, just judge him on the basis of how he did aginst the guys that he fought and that genius for defense that he had.

[Vantage_West]

Another candidate would be Pernell Whitaker, every close fight was a "robbery" and every defeat there exists excusses, whether about his "bad" performances I read never something...come on man pernell never gets light on anything he is usually the smaller man type fighters an people will easily say oh the other guy.

i think he is amazing to watch beat great comp and when he did lose he lost in a way that he didnt look bad.and i mean it there.

[Robbi]

Luigi, I used to feel the same way, but I've slowly and grudgingly come to realize that the Pea was never really beaten in his prime, and that he did indeed beat Julio Cesar Chavez and WAS outrageously robbed of the victory that night. I've been watching alot of his fights on ESPNClassic lately, and it seems that he beat whoever they put in front of him, slugger or sytlist, it made no difference. Of course, in my opinion, aside from Chavez and De la Hoya, there were not many greats of the level of Duran, Leonard, Hearns, etc., on his resume, but that cannot be held against him, because he fought who was there, and available. It wasn't his jabbing, or any other punch in his arsenal that was his strong suit, but that uncanny defense that drove everyone crazy. I still fell that Duran would have hunted him down with his crazy, animal blend of speed, intensity, power, relentless stamina and killer instinct. Anyone short of Duran he was the master of. Benitez-era Sugar Ray Leonard would have been another potential crisis for the Pea, but to hell with all of that, just judge him on the basis of how he did aginst the guys that he fought and that genius for defense that he had.

Buddy McGirt may not have been a star name when Whitaker fought him, but he was consistently ranked in the top three "pound for pound" over 2-3 years.

Another very underrated win on Whitaker's record, his 12 round decision against Vasquez. Who was arguably a top five light-middleweight during the whole period of the 90's, maybe even top three. He made around 10 defenses of the WBA title over a two year period before Whitaker boxed his ears off. Probably the best win was his UD over Wright, although an inexperienced and unseasoned Wright.

[Luigi1985]

Luigi, I used to feel the same way, but I've slowly and grudgingly come to realize that the Pea was never really beaten in his prime, and that he did indeed beat Julio Cesar Chavez and WAS outrageously robbed of the victory that night. I've been watching alot of his fights on ESPNClassic lately, and it seems that he beat whoever they put in front of him, slugger or sytlist, it made no difference. Of course, in my opinion, aside from Chavez and De la Hoya, there were not many greats of the level of Duran, Leonard, Hearns, etc., on his resume, but that cannot be held against him, because he fought who was there, and available. It wasn't his jabbing, or any other punch in his arsenal that was his strong suit, but that uncanny defense that drove everyone crazy. I still fell that Duran would have hunted him down with his crazy, animal blend of speed, intensity, power, relentless stamina and killer instinct. Anyone short of Duran he was the master of. Benitez-era Sugar Ray Leonard would have been another potential crisis for the Pea, but to hell with all of that, just judge him on the basis of how he did aginst the guys that he fought and that genius for defense that he had.


I think he´s overrated in terms of head-to-head. His legacy is great, but when I read things from some posters, that he´s almost unbeatable at 147 lbs and lower, than it´s a master example...

[werety]

I think I sort of agree with luigi here, whitaker fought everyone he couldve fought in his time and did great but he's definitely overrated head to head. I remember seeing on an earlier form that he would beat srr p4p and people seem to think that no matter what style faces whether its a boxer, slugger, swarmer, or some versatile mix like duran that whitaker will just outslick them to a decision no matter what.

[Robbi]

I think he´s overrated in terms of head-to-head. His legacy is great, but when I read things from some posters, that he´s almost unbeatable at 147 lbs and lower, than it´s a master example...

Anyone who thinks Whitaker would be unbeatable at welterweight is living in an unreal world. I'd take Leonard and Hearns both to beat him, and maybe even Curry among others.

However, Whitaker beats anyone at lightweight, including Duran.

[brownpimp88]

Duran would get his ears boxed off by whitaker, he aint gonna knock him out. I agree that most top tier welterweights would beat him and the fighters of his style would give him a good fight, but pressure fighters with average power or brawlers would get a paint job done to them by whitaker.

[brooklyn1550]

Duran would get his ears boxed off by whitaker, he aint gonna knock him out. I agree that most top tier welterweights would beat him and the fighters of his style would give him a good fight, but pressure fighters with average power or brawlers would get a paint job done to them by whitaker.

Are you implying that Duran was a pressure fighter with average power or a brawler?

[brownpimp88]

Are you implying that Duran was a pressure fighter with average power or a brawler?
What is duran's record against boxers? Please instead of being another poster that hypes duran as 'god', please tell me his actual record against the boxers. I mean duran does great against the palominos, barkleys and cuevas. However, when he fights a great boxer like benitez, he gets outclassed. He fights laing, he gets schooled, leonard decides to box with him in thier rematch and he gets schooled.

Duran was a fighter with average power, he isnt a slugger nor is he known for his great 'boxing' skills.

[brooklyn1550]

What is duran's record against boxers? Please instead of being another poster that hypes duran as 'god', please tell me his actual record against the boxers. I mean duran does great against the palominos, barkleys and cuevas. However, when he fights a great boxer like benitez, he gets outclassed. He fights laing, he gets schooled, leonard decides to box with him in thier rematch and he gets schooled.

Duran was a fighter with average power, he isnt a slugger nor is he known for his great 'boxing' skills.

Duran lost to Wilfred Benitez and Kirkland Laing when he wasn't focused and wasn't in his prime. He beat Sugar Ray Leonard at 147 - that's all you need to know. He beat Esteban De Jesus twice, Ken Buchanan, Davey Moore, Ernesto Marcel, and Carlos Palomino - all very skilled fighters. And in the 2nd Leonard fight, it wasn't exactly Calzaghe-Lacy. The scorecards were relatively close.

Duran had above average power...watch some of his fights at lightweight and tell me he had average power. Watch him stun Leonard with one left hook in round 2 and tell me he had "average power."

Duran did have great all-around skills. He was one of the more versatile fighters of all time. Good from long range when he needed to be, excellent defensively, great head movement, great feints, great body puncher, and a great inside fighter (perhaps the best inside fighter ever). Not to mention he could take a punch, had excellent speed, and could maul you.

[brownpimp88]

Duran lost to Wilfred Benitez and Kirkland Laing when he wasn't focused and wasn't in his prime. He beat Sugar Ray Leonard at 147 - that's all you need to know. He beat Esteban De Jesus twice, Ken Buchanan, Davey Moore, Ernesto Marcel, and Carlos Palomino - all very skilled fighters. And in the 2nd Leonard fight, it wasn't exactly Calzaghe-Lacy. The scorecards were relatively close.

Duran had above average power...watch some of his fights at lightweight and tell me he had average power. Watch him stun Leonard with one left hook in round 2 and tell me he had "average power."

Duran did have great all-around skills. He was one of the more versatile fighters of all time. Good from long range when he needed to be, excellent defensively, great head movement, great feints, great body puncher, and a great inside fighter (perhaps the best inside fighter ever). Not to mention he could take a punch, had excellent speed, and could maul you.
How is he gonna get to whitaker? I would love to see you tell me how he actually beats pernell whitaker head to head?

[brooklyn1550]

How is he gonna get to whitaker? I would love to see you tell me how he actually beats pernell whitaker head to head?

I never said that he would...I was implying that he didn't fit the description you gave of those who would get a "paint job" from Whitaker.

[Dempsey1238]

Jack Dempsey. Scrawny overrated white guy. He beat NOBODY in his career and had no decent wins aside from maybe the Willard massacre (and that freak was nothing special anyways). The best fighter he fought boxed his ears off twice. Yet people around here talk like Dempsey was so kind of ATG wrecking machine. If I takes beating a big dumb freak like Willard, I guess I could be an ATG, too.

Nobody?? What about Tommy Gibbions?? Great fighter??
Even Carp was a pretty good fight(Fell short of great imo)

[Luigi1985]

Well, i never read that he is unbeatable at 147. I don´t think that there were many fighters who would pose a problem for him at lw and even at slw but at ww are many guys who would beat him.


You don´t know the poster "Sweet Pea" for example? :D
No, seriously, Whitaker´s record is great, and I rate him also high head-to-head, but I give many fighters at least a chance against him (Ortiz, Laguna, Duran, Loi, Napoles, etc.)

[Luigi1985]

Well, depends how much of a chance, i wouldn´t make any lw a clear favourite over him.


I would give nobody a "clear" chance against him, but like I wrote, at least good chances to make a close fight...

[Luigi1985]

If you look at the division since it started it would be foolish not to do so, deepest division ever.


Exactly, and some nut huggers mean, "Sweet Pea" would win against anyone at 147 lbs and lower, that´s why I think he´s overrated a bit...