SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

[Nigel_Benn]

I had it 8-4 to Hagler here are the rounds as i saw them

1.SRL
2.SRL
3.Hagler
4.SRL
5.Hagler
6.SRL
7.Hagler
8.Hagler
9.Hagler
10.Hagler.
11.Hagler
12.Hagler

[Luigi1985]

Bad Scoring, I don´t know why SRL is so hated here...

[Robbi]

I had it 8-4 to Hagler here are the rounds as i saw them

1.SRL
2.SRL
3.Hagler
4.SRL
5.Hagler
6.SRL
7.Hagler
8.Hagler
9.Hagler
10.Hagler.
11.Hagler
12.Hagler

Hagler looked terrible throughout the fight. Leonard out-scored him. Hagler could not put 2-3 punches together, and plodded forward landing single shots. Even during the 9th round, one of his best rounds, he had Leonard on the ropes ready to be gobbled up, but missed with wide clubbing punches from both hands. Leonard was an exhausted stationary target. Ive never seen Hagler's handspeed look so bad, very sluggish and past his prime.

Leonard won the fight. A clear, but close competitve fight.

[fists of fury]

Not this again...:-(

[GazOC]

I had Leonard winning 115-113

[Stewbear]

First round

Leonard dances away and jabs, while haggler does nothing, and looks uncomfortable.

10-9 Leonard

Second round

Similar to first, but when Hagler gets close Leonard starts clinching, which is a feature throughout the fight, though on the inside Hagler still got some good body shots.
Close, but Leonard’s rally towards the end just edges it for him, as Hagler still seems unsure how to deal with Leonard.

10-9 Leonard

Third round

Hagler switches to south paw, and goes after Leonard landing some good straight lefts, while even out jabbing him. All Leonard does is throw one punch and clinch, while Hagler wins all the exchanges.
At least we can both agree Hagler won this round ;]

9-10 Hagler

Fourth round

Hagler goes after Leonard early landing hard shots, while all Leonard does for the first half of the round is clinch, and low blow. Hagler lands some really hard body shots, while all Leonard does is showboat. I don’t know what you are talking about in his round it was close, but Hagler landed the far harder punches. That one bolo punch (which the replay shows was also a low blow!) can’t compare to the pain Hagler was dishing out.
This round shows how biased the commentary is.

9-10 Hagler

Fifth round

Hagler continues to chase Leonard, and has more success, as Leonard’s legs seem to slow a bit. Also shows how remarkably well Hagler does despite Leonard’s continual clinching. Haggler lands a lot of jabs, though Leonard does some nice body work. Hagler misses with a lot of big shots, but lands the first real hard ones of the fight, as he finds the distance. In the last thirty seconds Hagler hurts Leonard with a great right uppercut, and also traps Leonard on the ropes, who look tired.

9-10 Hagler

Sixth round

Hagler comes out strong with the jab, and lands a good left hook. Hagler lands three solid body punches, and Leonard looks as if he has lost nearly all the dance he had in the first few rounds. Leonard continues to clinch, but Hagler lands some solid uppercuts. Even the commentators admit there is nothing on Ray’s punches, who is only hitting the glove anyway. Hagler looks slow and plodding, but still has little trouble getting to Leonard who is breathing heavy. Hagler misses badly, but again the commentators agree Leonard is doing nothing Hagler is just missing! Leonard does well of the ropes showing great upper body movement, but ultimately he is just defending, as Hagler lands more good uppercuts in the clinches. Hagler lands the far harder punches, although Leonard rallies in the last 15 seconds, but it is nowhere near enough. I am afraid you are completely off here.

9-10 Hagler

[Stewbear]

Seventh round

Hagler comes out with a hard right, and again Leonard clinches! Leonard throws little, and just pushes Hagler away with an outstretched glove, while trying to dodge the punches coming at him. Leonard carries on running from Hagler, who is throwing neat combinations, and out jabbing him. Again Leonard shows good head movement, but takes power shots when Hagler goes to the body. In a change Hagler now pushes Leonard back who stumbles. Hagler continues to land several jabs in a row, while Leonard occasionally throws flashy combos to no effect, though he does land some good left hooks, as he pushes Hagler’s head down. Leonard tries to finish strong with flashy combos again, but this time Hagler pushes forward, and lands some really hard hooks and uppercuts. Impressive round for Hagler, as Leonard disgracefully hits after the bell.

9-10 Hagler

Eighth round

Hagler amazing continues to out jab Leonard with powerful jabs pushing him back. Hagler continues to land rights to the body when Leonard clinches, and just covers up when Leonard fires his pitter patter punches. Leonard continues to back pedal as Hagler hunts him down mercilessly. Hagler lands his stiff jab at ease, and walks through Leonard’s shots. Near the end Hagler lands several hard body shots, and a brilliant straight right, though Leonard stands up well to it. Hagler beats Leonard easily when they stand toe to toe, and again Leonard hits after the bell!

9-10 Hagler

Ninth round

Leonard does seem to a second win here, and starts to put more behind his punches, though Hagler continues to land vicious body punches. Amazingly Leonard continues to get warned for holding, but no points are taken away! Hagler catches him on the ropes, but goes head hunting, while Leonard keeps his chin a moving target. Leonard lands a great combination, but Hagler seems unfazed and come back with a great left that snaps Ray’s head back in what is the best punch so far of the fight, and then just pounds away at Leonard in the corner. To Leonard’s credit he comes back with flurries of his own, but the difference is he is only fighting in spurts, while Hagler is constantly pressuring him. Both look exhausted at the end, but Hagler continues to blast away at the body, while Leonard desperately clings on. Hagler was by far the best in this round.

9-10 Hagler

(Important note her commentator says Hagler won round, though acknowledges ‘emotions’ may play a part in the scoring.)

Tenth round

Leonard starts to move a lot better in this round, but Hagler quickly goes back to pushing Leonard back with his jab, and landing hard uppercuts. Leonard throws some nice combinations, though there is no power behind them, and just spins out of the corner. (Note: how hilarious it is when the commentator says the referee is doing a good job lol) Leonard fights back, but continues to fight in spurts, and continues to get hit with numerous uppercuts in his own clinches. Hagler looks slow, but Leonard misses with a wild right, and gets caught with a big right hook, which probably won Hagler won a close round along with his late rally.

9-10 Hagler

Eleventh round

Leonard comes out strong, and establishes his jab, while counter punching the slow Hagler. Leonard seems a lot more composed, and although Hagler lands body shot in the clinch, he gets hit with good combinations on the break. Hagler catches Leonard on the ropes, but can’t land anything cleanly, as Leonard fights back brilliantly. Leonard showboats, and gets his punches of before Hagler’s, who comes back with big left hooks in anger, but is made to miss big by Leonard, who looks a lot more comfortable.

10-9 Leonard

Twelfth round

Hagler comes out with a big left hand, but Leonard continues to show a great chin. (Again it is said the ‘sentiment just has to be with Leonard) Hagler catches Leonard with a hard left on the ropes, but is made to miss several times. Hagler again traps Leonard in the corner, who breaks out with a flurry with absolutely no power behind it, who then decides to get on his bike again. Leonard continues to clown around and gives the round away as he throws nothing and amazing still continues to hold while Hagler throws to his body. To finish Hagler traps him against the ropes and catches with a huge left hook.

9-10 Hagler

111-117 Hagler final score

Hagler clearly won, and I would love to see you dispute any round. As has already been pointed out Leonard won because ‘sentiment’ was with him, which basically it was an out right robbery, where Leonard won a popularity contest. The irony is I believe Leonard did spectacularly well, even taking into consideration the controversies surrounding the build up, and his foul tactics, but he know he lost. The judge who scored it 118-110 for Leonard proves all these points, as this is just criminal, and blight on boxing. This took me a long time to do, but was a great fight to watch again despite the shocking official result. Hagler himself summed it up best of all ‘I beat him he knows it everybody knows it’ and its true if Hagler had won there would have been no controversy.

[Holmes' Jab]

Marv lost clearly, by at least a few points on the cards. I personally can't see it any other way. I scored the fight 116-112, Leonard.

The fight was swayed during those closer rounds, most of which SRL did enough to nick. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler himself summed it up best of all ‘I beat him he knows it everybody knows it’ and its true if Hagler had won there would have been no controversy.


You simply have to be kidding.

[Sweet Science]

Some people are as bitter as Hagler about the decision in this fight. Anyone who watches the fight carefully and scores it impartially can see Leonard won clearly by 2-3 rounds.

[Robbi]

111-117 Hagler. Probably the most ridiculous scorecard I have ever witnessed.

[Nick Balsamo]

Hagler is my all-time favorite.. And I have great difficulties scoring the fight in his favor.

Scored it three times in my life, and I got one for Leonard, one for Hagler and one draw.:think

[FlatNose]

I've heard the talk and complaints now for twenty years, and no matter how many times I watch the fight, Leonard always wins.He just Landed more punches, and the cleaner punches.Marv looked slow and sluggish the whole fight, but it was Ray that made him look that way.Leonard was simply the better fighter, and won clearly.

[Robbi]

Hagler is my all-time favorite.. And I have great difficulties scoring the fight in his favor.

Scored it three times in my life, and I got one for Leonard, one for Hagler and one draw.:think

I'm with you. Hagler aint my favourite fighter of all time, but I like him much more than Leonard.

I just can't see how Hagler was the better prize fighter that night.

[BoppaZoo]

I had Hagler winning. This fight probably deserved a draw to tell you the truth but the judge that had Leonard winning 118-110 all i will say is BOXING POLITICS.

This fight had rigged written all over it when that judges score was read out.

It should have been a draw cause i think i had Hagler only winning by a round.

[Robbi]

I had Hagler winning. This fight probably deserved a draw to tell you the truth but the judge that had Leonard winning 118-110 all i will say is BOXING POLITICS.

This fight had rigged written all over it when that judges score was read out.

It should have been a draw cause i think i had Hagler only winning by a round.

You had Hagler winning by a round, but you think it should have been a draw. Not too sure how thats worked out. Maybe I should have payed more attention at school.

[BoppaZoo]

You had Hagler winning by a round, but you think it should have been a draw. Not too sure how thats worked out. Maybe I should have payed more attention at school.Just saying that it was a close fight and if it was Leonard by a round or Hagler by a round it wouldnt have worried me or even if a draw was read out.

But 118-110 WTF was that judge watching.

[JohnThomas1]

You had Hagler winning by a round, but you think it should have been a draw. Not too sure how thats worked out. Maybe I should have payed more attention at school.

He might mean he's biased towards Hagler or against SRL and is balancing it out.

[Robbi]

Just saying that it was a close fight and if it was Leonard by a round or Hagler by a round it wouldnt have worried me or even if a draw was read out.

But 118-110 WTF was that judge watching.

Yeah, I knew what you meant. Draw/Hagler either as some rounds were close.

111-117 for Hagler someone said earlier in the thread. He's even more out than the judge who scored it 118-110 in favour of Leonard.

Leonard was a clear but close winner.

Hagler's weaknesses: Slow handspeed, no 2-3-4 punch combinations, fighting orthodox during the early rounds, and being cautious, lacked variation, too flat-footed and static to narrow the distance.

[BoppaZoo]

Yeah, I knew what you meant. Draw/Hagler either as some rounds were close.

111-117 for Hagler someone said earlier in the thread. He's even more out than the judge who scored it 118-110 in favour of Leonard.

Leonard was a clear but close winner.

Hagler's weaknesses: Slow handspeed, Lacking in 2-3-4 punch combinations, fighting orthodox during the early rounds, and being cautious, lacked variation, too flat-footed and static to narrow the distance.Well i thought it was a clear case of Hagler hit with the better power shots, and Leonard was more active. it was so close i was going Shit. 117-110 Hagler is a bit rich. so many close rounds its not funny.

[Robbi]

Well i thought it was a clear case of Hagler hit with the better power shots, and Leonard was more active. it was so close i was going Shit. 117-110 Hagler is a bit rich. so many close rounds its not funny.

Leonard hit home with more clean power shots than many people give him credit for, honest. Because he boxed on the move behind the jab, and was defensively minded with Hagler coming forward, it fools everyone on how effective some of Leonard's power punches actually were.

[Stewbear]

Yeah, I knew what you meant. Draw/Hagler either as some rounds were close.

111-117 for Hagler someone said earlier in the thread. He's even more out than the judge who scored it 118-110 in favour of Leonard.

Leonard was a clear but close winner.

Hagler's weaknesses: Slow handspeed, no 2-3-4 punch combinations, fighting orthodox during the early rounds, and being cautious, lacked variation, too flat-footed and static to narrow the distance.
I put up a round for round scorecard and invite you to do the same and dispute rounds, but so far you havn't.
I think Hagler won the fight and have explained round by round, while you have simply tried to discredit it by saying it is the worst scorecard you have ever seen or something similar.
Hagler did look shit most of the fight, but he still beat Leonard by a large margin!

[Robbi]

I put up a round for round scorecard and invite you to do the same and dispute rounds, but so far you havn't.
I think Hagler won the fight and have explained round by round, while you have simply tried to discredit it by saying it is the worst scorecard you have ever seen or something similar.
Hagler did look shit most of the fight, but he still beat Leonard by a large margin!

I have not done a round by round, and see no reason why I need to. I have gave my reasons, although briefly, in a constructive manner why Leonard won. You need to check my other posts and read.

Hagler won by a wide margin. Whats your criteria for scoring fights, some walking forward forcing the fight?.

Your scoring is plain laughable.

[Boro chris]

I love Hagler. He's my favourite Middleweight of all time!
But I had him losing by 2 rounds to Leonard and I'm allways surprised how often sentiment and bias for the 'Blue collared' fighter colours peoples judgement here.
Having said that I have no problem with any who gave it to Hagler by a round or two, but 117-111 is a scorecard that deserves a slap with a wet kipper!

[Street Lethal]

I may have been closer than 8-4 (a case can be made for 6, 11, and 12), but Hagler won the fight.

People who think Leonard won are open or closet Leonard fans, open or closet Hagler haters (there are definitely some of those here), people who only focused on what Leonard was doing (they were so amazed that he actually lasted the distance that they thought he won lots of rounds along the way), or people who were tricked by Leonard and Dundee.

I am not trying to start a fight by saying this. I'm just being honest. If you sit down with people who think Leonard won and review the fight with them you find that they can't tell you why they thought Leonard won so many rounds.

Hagler had definitely slowed a step, but he wasn't so slow that Leonard could come back after three years and outpoint him. It just didn't happen.

[Mantequilla]

Christ, the Hagler fanboys will never let this go.Cue ridiculous mention of only fighting 30 seconds a round, shoeshining etc.

It's cringeworthy.

The fight was very close on almost all reasonable scorecards.

A legit win even with the shady scoring for Leonard on one card.

[Boro chris]

I may have been closer than 8-4 (a case can be made for 6, 11, and 12), but Hagler won the fight.

People who think Leonard won are open or closet Leonard fans, open or closet Hagler haters (there are definitely some of those here), people who only focused on what Leonard was doing (they were so amazed that he actually lasted the distance that they thought he won lots of rounds along the way), or people who were tricked by Leonard and Dundee.

I am not trying to start a fight by saying this. I'm just being honest. If you sit down with people who think Leonard won and review the fight with them you find that they can't tell you why they thought Leonard won so many rounds.

Hagler had definitely slowed a step, but he wasn't so slow that Leonard could come back after three years and outpoint him. It just didn't happen.

Your stating an opinion as fact. That can be a bit irritating.

[Robbi]

Stewbear is not to be taken seriously, don't let him get you riled up, he's a joke. He had Chavez beating Whitaker.

Sweet Pea. How did you score the fight, and what are your thoughts on the fight overall?

[Street Lethal]

The problem with changing the names is that Leonard didn't win, so there is no equality principle that allows for balancing the equation. It was cute, but not particularly effective (unless people are predisposed to think it is).

The problem with the guy who said that "opinion as fact is irritating" is that all sound judgment is based on fact. People who believe Leonard won don't have the facts on their side, to wit:

#1 Hagler made the fight. He was the aggressor, and, for most of the fight, he was the effective aggressor. Leonard fought almost the entire fight going backwards. He was rarely the aggressor in the fight. And he was effective even less.

#2 The number of punches landed by either fighter was roughly the same (Hagler threw a lot more punches), but Hagler landed the harder punches. He even had Leonard in trouble a few times. Had Leonard landed a significantly greater number of punches, then that would have counted for something, even though he was going backwards, but he didn't. Nor did he land any particularly solid punches. In fact, Leonard punched with open gloves and (sporadically) threw flurries. There was some shoeshinning but little in the way of substance. The few sneaky lead rights Leonard landed did not win the fight.

#3 Leonard broke off the exchanges. I don't remember Hagler initiating a single clinch. Moving backwards without returning fire and clinching are not the signs of superior boxing technique (honestly, I think a lot of people are confused about this). In fact, they go against the fighter in the scoring. Leonard did a lot of holding.

From time to time, champion Joe Louis was made to look silly by cute boxers. But, except for one fight, in which Louis was floored twice, judges rightly gave the track meets to Louis. Louis was coming forward and landing the more effective punches. That's the name of the game. That's what Hagler did. And, yes, he was slow, but not so slow that all he caught was air. Remember, according to punch statistics, they both landed about the same number of punches. You throw a lot and you miss a lot, particular when your opponent is trying to survive.

In Ali-Frazier I, Ali landed a hell of a lot more punches than Frazier, and his punches were damaging, too. He even had Frazier hurt a time or two. But Frazier made the fight, while Ali clinched too frequently. I don't think anybody seriously questions the verdict in Ali-Frazier I (except Ali!), yet, even though Hagler beat Leonard more decisively than Frazier did Ali, especially when you consider the relative number of punches landed and the damage done, people still maintain that Leonard won. If you believe Leonard beat Hagler it seems to me that you would also believe that Ali beat Frazier in their first fight.

The bottomline is that the fighter who makes the fight and lands the harder punches beats the fighter who breaks off exchanges and doesn't land a significantly greater number of punches.

It's wishful thinking to believe Leonard won. You have to make exceptions to the way fights are scored to give it to Leonard.

[Mantequilla]

Most of that was opinion and not fact.

[redrooster]

hagler was shot. i could tell before the fight when i saw him in sparring so i'm the only one who can honestly evaluate him unlike the closet leonard fans/Hagler haters. I am not some fraud that plagues the forums claiming to have had dinner with John Conteh or Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns.

Before I get too far off the topic, I must agree with the scores in favor of Hagler because as in the Hearns fight, Leonard didn't win enough of the rounds.

Although I will agree with Leonard that the slowness of Hagler helped him tremendously, Hagler didn't have the stamina problem that afflicted Hearns and so it went the distance in what appeared to be a close fight to fans who are easily decieved. Had it been Norris in the ring with Leonard that day, there would have been no controversy as Terry would have simply outsped him on route to a lopsided win.

Back to the fight.

No way did leonard take the first round. Any honest person has to admit the round was even as neither man did enough to win the round. In reality, Ray could do no better than take the second and 4th. third was even. That makes two even and two for leonard.

Hagler takes rd. 5, 7 (close), and 8th round a bit more convincingly.

Leonard takes 6 and 9 is even in a struggle.

That leaves three rounds left. The fight is close and up for grabs.

An extremely faded and sluggish Hagler manages to take rd. 10,11.

Hagler now has 5 rounds. 3 rounds are even and leonard has only won three and IMO has already lost but this is Vegas and with 1 round remaining, if Leonard takes it, could steal the fight.

leonard in fact does take much of the final round (IMO) but like Leonard had done earlier in the fight, Hagler finishes the round strongly and manages to steal it.

Hagler wins the round and the fight itself.

[Thread Stealer]

I had Hagler winning 116-113.

[Street Lethal]

Most of that was opinion and not fact.

These are not opinions: the number of punches landed by either fighter did not differ significantly (Leonard landed maybe a dozen more), although Hagler threw a lot more leather; Hagler was the aggressor and landed the harder punches; Leonard made the clinches and broke off the action; Leonard was shoeshining and slapping (as well as fouling); Hagler was pressing the action throughout, whereas Leonard was fighting in spurts; Hagler was never hurt in the fight, but Leonard was staggered more than once.

From these facts I arrive at this opinion: Leonard did not win this fight.

[redrooster]

Not only that Lethal but it is also true that much of what Leonard threw was clearly caught on the gloves of Hagler and that's why I scored it the way I did. Celebs at ringside don't notice things like that and they don't care. They just want him to win..period.

[BoppaZoo]

Look i just wanted to add these two things.

* im a big believer in the Challenger needs to take the belt of the Champ but yet Hagler was the one who made the fight.

* How do i mean made the fight if Hagler didnt come foward and press the offence there wouldnt have been a fight just like the Dela Hoya - Mayweather fight.

I truely believe that the fight was close but i dont agree with Leonard doing enough to take the belt off the champ like many said especially when it was Leonard walking backwards all night.

Just having a say.

[achillesthegreat]

I can live with a 7-5 scorecard for Hagler. Any more and you are pushing it. However I call it 7-5 Leonard. He took Hagler out of his comfort zone and was the ring general. In terms of offence and defence the punch stats speak for themself.

[Holmes' Jab]

The best verdict you can give to Hagler is that he loses this fight by two rounds. I've scored it numerous times and I've yet to score it as a Hagler victory, even a draw is slightly generous. Leonard was the agressor during those very close rounds. :yep

[JohnThomas1]

The best verdict you can give to Hagler is that he loses this fight by two rounds. I've scored it numerous times and I've yet to score it as a Hagler victory, even a draw is slightly generous. Leonard was the agressor during those very close rounds. :yep

A man who tells it like it is

:happy

[Sonny's jab]

Hagler deserved to win it unless you want to score Leonard punches that land on Hagler's gloves.

Hagler won it, but it was close, IMO. He fought a lousy fight but he still deserved to win. Leonard fought beyond all expectation but he didn't get enough done to merit that verdict.

People who score for Leonard must be operating with a radically different criteria to mine.

I can admire flamboyant spoiling, evasive footwork and survival techniques from a tactical standpoint much as the next man but I cant give rounds to a fighter on account of him landing flurries of amateurish taps to the opponent's gloves and doing the backpedalling and showboating. The spoiling and neutralising needs to be backed up with substance, proactive scoring. At the same time, I dont credit Hagler for the moments he's plodding forward hesistantly and missing wildly, I dont give him credit for any of his inept "aggression".

Both fighters need to be credited only for the real punches they land on legitimate target areas. Watch how such punches are delivered and spread in each individual round and the scoring is not too difficult.
Leonard simply didn't do enough legitimate scoring in enough of Hagler's bad rounds (and there's no denying Hagler was pretty bad in many of the rounds) to capitalize.

Hagler should have been declared the winner. Not by a landslide by any means, but it's a clear Hagler win when you discard the chaff and score the substance.

[Street Lethal]

Both Red Rooster and Sonny's Jab make an excellent point about the quality of Leonard's punches. He did a lot of hitting Hagler's gloves. I should have included that in my analysis. You can't win fights unless you land clean, hard punches on legitimate target areas. Leonard didn't do much of that.

[Sonny Carson]

I had Hagler winning 115-113. If you want to take the title from somebody you've got to do more than Leonard did. The fight basically validated that Hagler would beat Leonard by a wider margin in his prime. Hagler was slow and he still caught Leonard in the middle round's. Hagler's punches were still more effective and he hurt Leonard at the end of the 12th.

[Doppleganger]

Not seen the fight for a while but I've always scored it by about 2 rounds for Leonard. It didn't help that Hagler did hardly anything for the first 4 rounds. I also take on board the lack of quality of Leonard's punches but IMO Hagler just did not work hard enough or perhaps couldn't because he was too slow. You could see numerous occasions where Hagler had openings but just could not get the shots off quickly enough. That was a consistent pattern throughout the fight.

115-113 in favour of Leonard is about right in my book.