Why Johnson didn't fought black fighters while beinh KW champion?

[jaffay]

Maybe there was similar thread, but I didn't saw it...

Question is, does Jack Johnson didn't want to, or he coudn't fight another black fighter for the heavyweight crown?

[janitor]

Maybe there was similar thread, but I didn't saw it...

Question is, does Jack Johnson didn't want to, or he coudn't fight another black fighter for the heavyweight crown?

It was a combination of factors.

A. He could make more money for the most part fighting the latest hopeless white hope.

B. The only fighters who posed any apreciable risk to his title were black.

C. Factors outside the ring such as his arest and exile acted to prevent certain key fights from being made.

The truth lies somwhere between these three factors.

[McGrain]

Same reason the white guys didn't do it.

[McGrain]

Janitor, do you think Johnson would have matched Langford had white America thrown up its hands and gone, "we're beat"? Or do you think someone this sharp always finds a way out of that match-up post Jeffries?

[janitor]

Janitor, do you think Johnson would have matched Langford had white America thrown up its hands and gone, "we're beat"? Or do you think someone this sharp always finds a way out of that match-up post Jeffries?

Verry verry har to say.

Most of the purses put up for a Johnson Langford fight were derisory relative to the risk involved. Most of them were about a tenth of what Johnson was getting for fighting guys like Kaufman and Ketchel.

Aside from that I am certain that Johnson regarded Langford as a verry serious risk to his title and was in no hurry to fight him. Especialy not after the troble he had to go to to obtain the title in the first place.

I think if anything could have induced Johnson it would have been money. By that I mean either:

1. A verry large purse for fighting Langford,
2. An end to the disproportionately big pursed being put up to fight white hopes,
3. or more likley a combination of the two.

I also think that Johnson showed more interest in cashing in on a Langford fight later in his career. He knew that he had milked the white hope craze for about as much as he was going to, and promotors abroad were starting to put up big offers for fights with Langford and McVea.

Maybe just maybe if Johnson had not been charged under the Mann act terms would have been agreed for something.

[mr. magoo]

Both Janitor and McGrain have basically summed it up.

For an African American to get a shot at the greatest title in the world during the early 1900's, he had to either be a crowd favorite or a man who had the right connections. Being the best wasn't enough as men like Peter Jackson, Harry Wills, Sam Langford and George Godfrey all discovered.

[sugar71]

1) Because he had already dominated all black competition before he got the World's title belt. Dominated the top three contenders Langford, Mcvea & Jeanette & lost one(1) out of 13 fights to these guys(Jeanette) for the Colored title belt. What else is there to prove ?

He didn't want to since the Title(which took him five(5) years of exhaustive hustling for) was far,far too valuable to give dangerous fighters 15,16 17, 20,etc,..... chances to beat him.

2)The climate made it to his advantage financially to demolish these less risky "White Hopes" even though he could probably also get a good payday for fighting the very best Black Contenders. But Why? He had already dominated them.

3) As James Earl Jones described, in Unforgivable Blackness, Johnson seemed to relish in his role as "THE Big Bad Boogey Man" to White America. Although it did cost him a bit of unhappiness/struggle at times.

The man beat everyone.Period. And hopefully Congress/President will give him his posthumous pardon soon.

And yes there have been several other pointless threads(but fun sometimes) whining about the same thing.

[jaffay]

And yes there have been several other pointless threads(but fun sometimes) whining about the same thing.

I think that it's better to ask someone with some more knowledge, rather than talkin bullshit. Thank you guys for your posts! I think that I get the picture of JJ and his title defences. Cheers!

[mcvey]

Verry verry har to say.

Most of the purses put up for a Johnson Langford fight were derisory relative to the risk involved. Most of them were about a tenth of what Johnson was getting for fighting guys like Kaufman and Ketchel.

Aside from that I am certain that Johnson regarded Langford as a verry serious risk to his title and was in no hurry to fight him. Especialy not after the troble he had to go to to obtain the title in the first place.

I think if anything could have induced Johnson it would have been money. By that I mean either:

1. A verry large purse for fighting Langford,
2. An end to the disproportionately big pursed being put up to fight white hopes,
3. or more likley a combination of the two.

I also think that Johnson showed more interest in cashing in on a Langford fight later in his career. He knew that he had milked the white hope craze for about as much as he was going to, and promotors abroad were starting to put up big offers for fights with Langford and McVea.

Maybe just maybe if Johnson had not been charged under the Mann act terms would have been agreed for something.
Jack Johnson , " two negroes dont draw".
Jack O Brien got his biggest career purse for his 6 round no decision bore snore against Johnson, $10,225.50, contrast this with the $7628.75 he received for defeating Fitzsimmons.Plus a "long clean scar from a glancing right uppercut that tore the flesh from the bone". This is for Janitor, re O Brien," as recently as 1936 ,when he was 59 ,he got into the ring at Pompton Lakes,New Jersey and boxed a round witrh Joe Louis, he made the Negro look rather silly for the first minute"

[Mendoza]

Jack Johnson , " two negroes dont draw".
Jack O Brien got his biggest career purse for his 6 round no decision bore snore against Johnson, $10,225.50, contrast this with the $7628.75 he received for defeating Fitzsimmons.Plus a "long clean scar from a glancing right uppercut that tore the flesh from the bone". This is for Janitor, re O Brien," as recently as 1936 ,when he was 59 ,he got into the ring at Pompton Lakes,New Jersey and boxed a round witrh Joe Louis, he made the Negro look rather silly for the first minute"

Not so. There were big time crowds in Europe to see MvCey, Jeanette, and Langford fight. So much for the two negros's don't draw.

At the very least, I feel Johnson should have had a re-match contract after the draws vs O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. Johnson had offers to fight these three in either Europe or Australia for $30,000.00-$50,000.00 but balked.

Johnson also shut out the best white hope in Gunboat Smith, who defeated a more prime version of Langford, and the white hopes Johnson gave title shots to.

[Mendoza]

sugar71 says : The climate made it to his advantage financially to demolish these less risky "White Hopes" even though he could probably also get a good payday for fighting the very best Black Contenders. But Why? He had already dominated them.Yes, but let us examine the dates.

Johnson beat a teen-aged Sam McVey.

Johnson beat a green Jeanette who was .500 fighter.

Johnson beat a 156 pound version of Sam Langford, who was a far cry from the 175-190 pound heavyweight destroyer. Boxing books will not tell you that, but it is true. While the names on Johnson's resume are impressive, the circumstance that he beat them was not.


Oddly enough when the size, experience level and weights of Johnson's better opponents were even, he was a loser, drew, or won via close margin. Its true.

Indeed he lost to Choynski, Griffin, Klondike, and Hart...because these guys were not teenagers like Sam Mcvey, .500 fighters with limited experience like Jeanette, or too light as Langford was.

As champion he drew with a 163 pound O'Brien, and journeyman Jim Johnson. Johnson did edge Frank Moran, but Moran was not as good as the Choysnki's, Griffn, and Hart's were in my book. Pehraps Moran was a better than Klondkie.

[rekcutnevets]

In some ways times change, in others they don't. The biggest draw usually wins. There was no where near the amount of money to be made off Johnson fighting black fighters.

[janitor]

Johnson also shut out the best white hope in Gunboat Smith, who defeated a more prime version of Langford, and the white hopes Johnson gave title shots to.

Gunboat Smith shut himself out.

Johnson offered him a title shot on a plate and he chose to wait untill Johnson was older with the result that Willard got there first.

[mcvey]

Not so. There were big time crowds in Europe to see MvCey, Jeanette, and Langford fight. So much for the two negros's don't draw.

At the very least, I feel Johnson should have had a re-match contract after the draws vs O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. Johnson had offers to fight these three in either Europe or Australia for $30,000.00-$50,000.00 but balked.

Johnson also shut out the best white hope in Gunboat Smith, who defeated a more prime version of Langford, and the white hopes Johnson gave title shots to.
THE FIGHT WITH O BRIEN WAS NOT A DRAW IT WAS A 6 ROUND NO DECISION.SOURCE FOR $50,000.00 offerred for a match with Mcvey,Jeannette or Langford.BURNS GOT £6000 when he defended against Johnson.$30,000 in US,Johnson received $5000

[mcvey]

In some ways times change, in others they don't. The biggest draw usually wins. There was no where near the amount of money to be made off Johnson fighting black fighters.

Johnson received $121,000 for fighting Jeffries,,in contrast A F Bettinson the promoter of the National Sporting Club of Britain offered Johnson £3000 to defend against Langford,that would have been about $9,000.

[mcvey]

Not so. There were big time crowds in Europe to see MvCey, Jeanette, and Langford fight. So much for the two negros's don't draw.

At the very least, I feel Johnson should have had a re-match contract after the draws vs O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. Johnson had offers to fight these three in either Europe or Australia for $30,000.00-$50,000.00 but balked.

Johnson also shut out the best white hope in Gunboat Smith, who defeated a more prime version of Langford, and the white hopes Johnson gave title shots to.

"When the liner docked and Johnson came down the gangplank ,he was received with applause,by the crowd ,he shook hands with many friends,he said he was" "ready to fight the winner of the Langford v Mcvey bout or any other pugilist for $30,000"

NYTimes March 4th 1909

[mcvey]

In some ways times change, in others they don't. The biggest draw usually wins. There was no where near the amount of money to be made off Johnson fighting black fighters.

Evidenced by the fact that Johnson got a flat garauntee of $31,000 for defending against Jim Flynn ,an easy defence.

[Mendoza]

THE FIGHT WITH O BRIEN WAS NOT A DRAW IT WAS A 6 ROUND NO DECISION.SOURCE FOR $50,000.00 offerred for a match with Mcvey,Jeannette or Langford.BURNS GOT £6000 when he defended against Johnson.$30,000 in US,Johnson received $5000

Please stop the BS McVey. We have been over this before.

Here's a source for $50,0000 for Johnson to fight Mcvey or Langfrod:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


and to fight Jeanette:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And another $50,000 offer for Johnson to meet Langford:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

There's more out there like this. Fact is Johnson skirted the best out there when the money was offered. Just accepts the facts.

[Mendoza]

Gunboat Smith shut himself out.

Johnson offered him a title shot on a plate and he chose to wait untill Johnson was older with the result that Willard got there first.


Not So, Gunboat Smith beat guys Jack Johnson gave title shots to... Ross, Moran, Fylnn, and Willard long before Johnson meet Willard. In fact Gunboat Smith did better vs the same opponents, and in fact TKO'd Jack Johsnon in a 4 round non title match.

If there was any justice, Gunboat Smith fights Jack Johnson in 1912 or 1913. A money offer was never made to Gunboat Smith. Smith wasn't a white hope, the guy could fight. Indeed, he also beat Langford.

[mcvey]

Please stop the BS McVey. We have been over this before.

Here's a source for $50,0000 for Johnson to fight Mcvey or Langfrod:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


and to fight Jeanette:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And another $50,000 offer for Johnson to meet Langford:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

There's more out there like this. Fact is Johnson skirted the best out there when the money was offered.

EVERY WORD I POSTED IN THAT PEICE IS CORRECT AND VERIFIABLE.
You are no longer rational on this topic.Why dont you start your own. I HATE JACK JOHNSON FORUM? sad:-(

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;3550616]
If there was any justice, Gunboat Smith fights Jack Johnson in 1912 or 1913. A money offer was never made to Gunboat Smith. Smith wasn't a white hope, the guy could fight. Indeed, he also beat Langford.

Johnson ofered Smith a title fight imidizately after Smith beat Sam Langford and Smith refused.

When Smith beat Langford Johnson thought all his Christmases had come at once because he could fight Smith and give his refusal to fight Langford an air of legitimacy. He knew that relative to Langford Smith was a verry low risk oponent.

Smith chose not to take the fight and to wait for Johnson to get older because he knew he didnt have a cat in hells chance of beating him. He even confided as much to friends.

Simply put he missed his chance.

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;3550600]Please stop the BS McVey. We have been over this before.

Here's a source for $50,0000 for Johnson to fight Mcvey or Langfrod:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


This purse offer was withdrawn after Johnson was arested under the terms of the mann act.


and to fight Jeanette:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


By this point Johnson was being dragged through the courts and had other problems besides arranging title defences.

There was another offer around at this time for Johnson to fight Sam McVea in Russia for $30 000.


And another $50,000 offer for Johnson to meet Langford:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


This was a large purse by the standards of the day but would still have given Johnson a lot less money than he was making for fighting the white hopes.

I am not saying that Johnson is not to blame for these fights not materialising but I do think you should keep an open mind on the matter.

[Mendoza]

[quote]


Johnson ofered Smith a title fight imidizately after Smith beat Sam Langford and Smith refused.

When Smith beat Langford Johnson thought all his Christmases had come at once because he could fight Smith and give his refusal to fight Langford an air of legitimacy. He knew that relative to Langford Smith was a verry low risk oponent.

Smith chose not to take the fight and to wait for Johnson to get older because he knew he didnt have a cat in hells chance of beating him. He even confided as much to friends.

Simply put he missed his chance.

Unless the money is up by a promoter, the fight isn't real. Boxers often say they meet so and so with no intention of doing it.

Janitor, I disagree 100% that Gunboat Smith did not have a chance. Did you read the fact that Gunboat Smith did better vs Moran, Willard, Ross, and Flynn?

Smith was a quick boxer type, with good skills height, range, power and size for the era. Plus he certainly had the power to KO Johnson as evidenced in his Gunboat Smith TKOing Johnson in a 4 round non-title match.

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;3550683][quote=janitor;3550634]
Unless the money is up by a promoter, the fight isn't real. Boxers often say they meet so and so with no intention of doing it.


I think the offer was fleshed out in some detail. I will have to look it up.

Either way if Smith really wanted to fight for the title he could have done it for free.


Janitor, I disagree 100% that Gunboat Smith did not have a chance. Did you read the fact that Gunboat Smith did better vs Moran, Willard, Ross, and Flynn?


how so?

Smith was a quick boxer type, with good skills height, range, power and size for the era. Plus he certainly had the power to KO Johnson as evidenced in his Gunboat Smith TKOing Johnson in a 4 round non-title match.

You cant TKO sombody in a sparring sesion. It was a knockdown nothing more.

The bottom line is that in an actual fight Smith would need a knockout to win and he wouldnt get it.

[Mendoza]

[quote]


This purse offer was withdrawn after Johnson was arested under the terms of the mann act.


By this point Johnson was being dragged through the courts and had other problems besides arranging title defences.

There was another offer around at this time for Johnson to fight Sam McVea in Russia for $30 000.

This was a large purse by the standards of the day but would still have given Johnson a lot less money than he was making for fighting the white hopes.

I am not saying that Johnson is not to blame for these fights not materialising but I do think you should keep an open mind on the matter.Janitor, many of these fights were offered in Europe or Australia. Did

Johnson make $50,000.00 in any of this title fights besides Jeffries? No, in many cases he fought 2nd and 3rd tier white fighters for less money from 1909-1914.

Regarding the Smith fight, Johnson was stopped, not only knocked down. The news report clearly says Johnson was down and badly dazed. Johnson's manger had to stop the fight in round three. Clearly Gunboat Smith had a good chance of beating Johnson.

Smith was better than Hart who defeated Johnson, and Moran, who Johnson barely edged on a flimed 20 round fight.

To answer the how so on why Smith did better than Johnson’s title opponents question goes like this.

Gunboat Smith Defeated Willard on points with ease....Willard defeated Johnson.

Gunboat Smith defeated Moran by a clean margin....Johnson barley edged Frank Moran in a 20 round match.

Gunboat Smith KO'd Ross.....Johnson took Ross the distance

Gunboat Smith Ko'd Flynn in 5....Johnson won via DQ over Flynn in nine.

These results vs common opponents tell me Smith had an easier time vs the same four fighters in all cases. These four men whom SMith beat got title shots from Johnson. Smith did not. IMO, Had Smith not been as good as he was, perhaps he gets a title shot.

[mcvey]

not so, gunboat smith beat guys jack johnson gave title shots to... Ross, moran, fylnn, and willard long before johnson meet willard. In fact gunboat smith did better vs the same opponents, and in fact tko'd jack johsnon in a 4 round non title match.

If there was any justice, gunboat smith fights jack johnson in 1912 or 1913. A money offer was never made to gunboat smith. Smith wasn't a white hope, the guy could fight. Indeed, he also beat langford.

Gunboat Smith did not tko Johnson and you know it. I can tolerate a bit of bias, but you are a joke .

[janitor]

[quote=Mendoza;3550730]
Janitor, many of these fights were offered in Europe or Australia. Did
Johnson make $50,000.00 in any of this title fights besides Jeffries? No, in many cases he fought 2nd and 3rd tier white fighters for less money from 1909-1914.



As far as I can tell all the big purse offers for these fights came from Australia or Europe.

The Australian offer was to fight Langford and McVea for $50 000 but it was withdrawn due to Johnsons prosecution.

After that several other large offers were put up in the vacum lost by the Australian bid from Europe. By this time Johnson was embroiled in legal prosceedings.

Would you not be in the least bit curious to see what would have happened if Johnson had not been charged under the mann act and had to eithe go ahead with the contracted Australian bid or pull out?


Regarding the Smith fight, Johnson was stopped, not only knocked down. The news report clearly says Johnson was down and badly dazed. Johnson's manger had to stop the fight in round three. Clearly Gunboat Smith had a good chance of beating Johnson.


By that logic you would say that Lamon Brewster knocked out Lennox Lewis in an unoficial bout, or that Greg Page knocked out Mike Tyson.

I honestly cant say that the incident means a great deal in my estimation.


Smith was better than Hart who defeated Johnson, and Moran, who Johnson barely edged on a flimed 20 round fight.


Yes he was but he would not have got the overworked coloured heavyweight champion that Hart fought or the overweight unmotivated champion that Moran fought.

He would been treated as a dangerous challenger and would have got the level of preparation and focus that Flyn got and his best wouldnt have been good enough. Smith obviously thought so as well.

[flamengo]

A point of interest.... in the day, mammoth crowds had frequented the greatest of prize fights. Stadiums being raised purely for fistic events..... we all know the monetory sums involved... Johnson had a following, via all wishing to see 'the white redeemer' take his mantle.

Question?????...... How many fans would actually turn up to witness Johnson, a seemingly hated man of the 'white race', take on another 'coloured man'???

What money would the promoters put up for this bout???

Would a promotion, Johnson vs 'negro' in the USA, have eventuated???

Would any promoter have been left intact, even assuming this would be possible???


Clearly, the efforts to dethrone Johnson, in the USA... Kaufmann..Ketchel..Jefferies.. were pretty feeble, yet, drew great attention... purely for the 'hope' of seeing Johnson fall.

[janitor]

It is also worth noting that Sam Langford might have deserved the nod over Gunboat Smith when they fought.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

[quote]


Johnson ofered Smith a title fight imidizately after Smith beat Sam Langford and Smith refused.

When Smith beat Langford Johnson thought all his Christmases had come at once because he could fight Smith and give his refusal to fight Langford an air of legitimacy. He knew that relative to Langford Smith was a verry low risk oponent.

Smith chose not to take the fight and to wait for Johnson to get older because he knew he didnt have a cat in hells chance of beating him. He even confided as much to friends.

Simply put he missed his chance.
Gunboat Smith.
"Johnson can wait, and the longer he waits the better"

[Mendoza]

Gunboat Smith did not tko Johnson and you know it. I can tolerate a bit of bias, but you are a joke .

Dude, I understand you have man love for this guy, but I have posted this report before. Gunboat Smith had Johnson down, and badly dazed to the point where his manager stepped into the ring and stopped the fight. That is a TKO. There was no title shot for Gunboat after this, even though he earned it by beating FOUR fighters Johnson gave title shots to.

Read and deny:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bummy Davis]

I dont think there was big money for a black/black fight at the time...remember blacks were not big ticket buyers at the time for ovious reasons.....Johnson fought the fights were he was offered the money like Dempsey and remember why Jeffries came back after 6 yrs off at the age of 36 (losing 100lbs with no tune-up) FOR Money...the Whites were paying to see Johnson beat

[mcvey]

Dude, I understand you have man love for this guy, but I have posted this report before. Gunboat Smith had Johnson down, and badly dazed to the point where his manager stepped into the ring and stopped the fight. That is a TKO. There was no title shot for Gunboat after this, even though he earned it by beating FOUR fighters Johnson gave title shots to.

Read and deny:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I think Jack Johnson was a shitty individual ,he double crossed a lot of people ,showed a marked lack of loyalty to those that helped him ,including ,Frank Childs,and several of his managers. He was a preening peacock who strutted , and antagonized just about everyone. Compared to Jeannette and Langford he was an arsehole . That does not take anything away from his ability as a fighter,Johnson was an enigma, he refused to help Jack Blackburn when he came out of prison for cutting a man, yet paid for Sam Mcvey's funeral expenses.Jack Johnson was ultimately true to only one thing himself.My hero as a boxer was Dempsey ,and in my lifetime Ali.I just like to keep the truth out there .Gunboat Smith gave a taped interview to Pete Heller in March 1970 .I'll take his word over a news clipping.PS, you cannot have a tko ,or any other decision in a sparring session which Old Fogey has allready pointed out to you. A little bit of knowledge for you, Smith sparred with Ketchel in the morning and Johnson in the afternoon ,and he was still in the USS Navy. This must be the only time a sparring partner sparred with both protagonists involved in a heavweight title fight ,especially as it was on the same day,Plus Smith was still in the service.
If there is a TKO anywhere here, I think it is you that has just suffered it!:yikes