Top 10 Middleweights of the 1950's [Archive]

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Renofan

08-20-2007, 06:25 PM

I'm curious as to who the more knowledgable members on this forum think are the top 10 middleweights from 1950 to 1959. I'm sure most will have Sugar Ray Robinson as #1, but where do the rest come in?

Manassa

08-20-2007, 06:38 PM

Nemesis

08-20-2007, 07:05 PM

On ability?

1. Ray Robinson
2. Joey Giardello
3. Gene Fullmer
4. Randolph Turpin
5. Dick Tiger
6. Carmen Basilio
7. Carl Olson
8. Jake LaMotta

Those are the main ones. The next two places could be occupied by a number of contenders; Rocky Castellani, Paul Pender, Joey Giambra etc.

I would definately consider Charles Humez for the lower half of the top ten

The 50's middles were'nt really that great in fairness (though not as bad as the 30's)

mcvey

08-20-2007, 07:46 PM

Tommy Hearns

08-20-2007, 07:51 PM

Nemesis

08-21-2007, 03:49 AM

On accomplishments and ability:

1. Ray Robinson
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Joey Giardello
4. Dick Tiger
5. Eduardo Lausse
6. Ellsworth Webb
7. Henry Hank
8. Holly Mims
9. Joey Giambra
10. Randy Turpin

Before the flaming begins, this is a rough list.
please ammend Randy's ranking, if your basing this on ability, then Beating a peak SRR and going close to beating him in the rematch, warrants a much higher ranking

BoppaZoo

08-21-2007, 04:34 AM

This is a list of the best Middleweights in the 50's.
at the end of 1959
This is no order

Ray Robinson (141-6-2)
Gene Fullmer (50-4-0)
Dick Tiger (35-13-2)
Joey Giardello (83-17-5)
Jake LaMotta (83-19-4) (Retired in 1954)
Carl Olsen (76-10-0)
Randy Turpin (64-7-1)
Del Flanagan (94-16-2)
Dave Sands (97-10-1) (Died in 1952 in car crash aged 26)
Gustav Scholz (74-1-4)
Joey Giambra (56-5-2)
Paul Pender (34-5-2)
Terry Downes (19-6-0)
Henry Hank (38-10-1)

There is a few good fighters in there.

BoppaZoo

08-21-2007, 04:45 AM

I would like to mention Gustav Scholz. Never got a shot at the title at mw but beat just about everybody in Europe and won the European championship from the earier mentioned Humez, which is more worth than some of the alphabet titles today.i feel for Dave Sands.

In 1949
Dave Sands vs Dick Turpin- Sands W KO 1
in 1950
Dave Sands vs Carl Olsen- Sands W PTS 12
in 1951
Dave Sands vs Carl Olsen- Sands W UD 10

Dave Sands never got a title shot either and beat Two of the best getting around and his KO over Turpin was brutal.

Nemesis

08-21-2007, 04:59 AM

i feel for Dave Sands.

In 1949
Dave Sands vs Dick Turpin- Sands W KO 1
in 1950
Dave Sands vs Carl Olsen- Sands W PTS 12
in 1951
Dave Sands vs Carl Olsen- Sands W UD 10

Dave Sands never got a title shot either and beat Two of the best getting around and his KO over Turpin was brutal.

you do realize Dick Turpin is Randy Turpins brother :D

BoppaZoo

08-21-2007, 05:13 AM

you do realize Dick Turpin is Randy Turpins brother :DYes but Dick was no Chump. with a record with (77-20-6)
Both the Turpins were very good fighters.

my whole point was beating Olsen twice and Turpin aswell as Villemain
before he was 26 years old then dying in his Prime and missing a World Title fight against say Sugar Ray is just plain unfair.

Sands was a talent end of story.

Holmes' Jab

08-21-2007, 06:53 AM

My list:

1. SRR
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Carmen Basilio
4. Joey Giardello
5. Dick Tiger
6. Carl Olson
7. Randy Turpin
8. Jake La Motta

Tommy Hearns

08-21-2007, 11:47 AM

please ammend Randy's ranking, if your basing this on ability, then Beating a peak SRR and going close to beating him in the rematch, warrants a much higher rankingWhat fighter(s) do you think he should be ranked over?

Nemesis

08-21-2007, 01:07 PM

6-9

Tommy Hearns

08-21-2007, 02:32 PM

6-9There's not much seperating the fighters between 6-10; let's break them down.

6. Ellsworth Webb:

Record During 50s: 33-5-0
Best Wins: Holly Mims (UD 10), Joey Giardello (TKO 7), Dick Tiger (UD 10)

Webb's performance against Giardello is the main reason I placed him this high; the manner in which he countered the counter puncher and showed such excellent judgment of distance and range was truly brilliant. Never have I seen someone outclass a young Giardello in such fashion. Victories over Mims and Tiger aren't bad either.

7. Henry Hank

Record During 50s: 39-10-1
Best Wins: Neal Rivers (KO 4), Holly Mims (UD 10), George Benton (UD 10)

Inconsistency has always plagued Hank’s career, and it does hurt his standing a bit, but those two top quality wins over cagey technicians like Mims and Benton (in which George, a known defensive guru, was in a bit of trouble near the end) in particular indicate a very capable fighter. Not your run of the mill swarmer, Giardello later called him the hardest puncher he had ever faced.

8. Holly Mims

Record During 50s: 35-16-2
Best Wins: Milo Savage (MD 10), Spider Webb (UD 10), George Benton (UD 10), Henry Hank (SD 10)

A top tier ring mechanic whose boxing ability often overshadows his infighting skills and overall well rounded knowledge in his craft. In only his third year as a pro, he gave a much more experienced Robinson a difficult nights work, cutting him in the process. His top wins and ability save him from his spotty record, which isn’t all his fault to begin with; it is well known that Mims took fights on short notice or wore the cuffs during his career.

9. Joey Giambra

Record During 50s: 53-5-1
Best Wins: Joey Giardello (UD, SD 10), Gil Turner (SD 10), Rocky Castellani (UD 10) x2

Another crafty and underrated contender characteristic of the era. Probably deserves to be higher, especially considering that many believe he deserved the nod in the ‘Bobo’ Olson fight, in which his opponent came in comfortably over the middleweight limit. He was rated in the Ring magazine’s top 10 for over a decade, but was only given a title shot once late in his career; it’s what earned him the moniker as “The Champion Without a Title”. My knowledge on him is more limited than the others, hence the lower rating.

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Turpin’s awkwardness and strength would present problems for anyone, but I get the feeling that much of his legacy is based on solely on catching a seemingly invincible Robinson off guard and escaping with the decision. He would always be a troublesome opponent for anyone at the 160 pound mark, but his body of work at the weight isn’t very extensive and ultimately prevents a potentially much higher rating; half way through the fifties he jumped up in weight to light heavy. Not to say his current standing on my list is permanent, however. Wins over Charles Humez and Tommy Yarosz are impressive.

Nemesis

08-21-2007, 03:40 PM

There's not much seperating the fighters between 6-10; let's break them down.

6. Ellsworth Webb:

Record During 50s: 33-5-0
Best Wins: Holly Mims (UD 10), Joey Giardello (TKO 7), Dick Tiger (UD 10)

Webb's performance against Giardello is the main reason I placed him this high; the manner in which he countered the counter puncher and showed such excellent judgment of distance and range was truly brilliant. Never have I seen someone outclass a young Giardello in such fashion. Victories over Mims and Tiger aren't bad either.

7. Henry Hank

Record During 50s: 39-10-1
Best Wins: Neal Rivers (KO 4), Holly Mims (UD 10), George Benton (UD 10)

Inconsistency has always plagued Hank’s career, and it does hurt his standing a bit, but those two top quality wins over cagey technicians like Mims and Benton (in which George, a known defensive guru, was in a bit of trouble near the end) in particular indicate a very capable fighter. Not your run of the mill swarmer, Giardello later called him the hardest puncher he had ever faced.

8. Holly Mims

Record During 50s: 35-16-2
Best Wins: Milo Savage (MD 10), Spider Webb (UD 10), George Benton (UD 10), Henry Hank (SD 10)

A top tier ring mechanic whose boxing ability often overshadows his infighting skills and overall well rounded knowledge in his craft. In only his third year as a pro, he gave a much more experienced Robinson a difficult nights work, cutting him in the process. His top wins and ability save him from his spotty record, which isn’t all his fault to begin with; it is well known that Mims took fights on short notice or wore the cuffs during his career.

9. Joey Giambra

Record During 50s: 53-5-1
Best Wins: Joey Giardello (UD, SD 10), Gil Turner (SD 10), Rocky Castellani (UD 10) x2

Another crafty and underrated contender characteristic of the era. Probably deserves to be higher, especially considering that many believe he deserved the nod in the ‘Bobo’ Olson fight, in which his opponent came in comfortably over the middleweight limit. He was rated in the Ring magazine’s top 10 for over a decade, but was only given a title shot once late in his career; it’s what earned him the moniker as “The Champion Without a Title”. My knowledge on him is more limited than the others, hence the lower rating.

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Turpin’s awkwardness and strength would present problems for anyone, but I get the feeling that much of his legacy is based on solely on catching a seemingly invincible Robinson off guard and escaping with the decision. He would always be a troublesome opponent for anyone at the 160 pound mark, but his body of work at the weight isn’t very extensive and ultimately prevents a potentially much higher rating; half way through the fifties he jumped up in weight to light heavy. Not to say his current standing on my list is permanent, however. Wins over Charles Humez and Tommy Yarosz are impressive.

Thanks for replying TH, Whilst you've brought some interesting info to my attention, i would contend "catching Robinson off guard", as even SRR admitted that Turpin soundly beat him (the decision wasnt remotely contentious). Even in the rematch which i had Robinson up by only a point at the time of stoppage, Turpin was coming on and gave Robinson fits too.

I wouldnt say Robinson was out of shape going in as he had ideal preparation fighting the likes of Jean Stock, and van dam. Lest we not forget Robinson record going in something like 129-1-1.

Turpin's main problem was his fragile mentality as he lets his indescretions between the sheets affect his performances in the ring, especially his affair's leading upto the Olson fight put him in a bad state of mind as he was having his way for the first 3 rounds and as soon as got hit back he went into survival mode.

My point being is when ranking someone on ability, you should view them on his best night, and on Turpin's he beat the greatest fighter ever (who happened to be very close to his peak).

Renofan

08-21-2007, 04:13 PM

My list:

1. SRR
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Carmen Basilio
4. Joey Giardello
5. Dick Tiger
6. Carl Olson
7. Randy Turpin
8. Jake La Motta

Thats the list so far that I have came the closest to agreeing with. I also feel that if you move Randy Turpin up, Bobo Olson stays just a notch ahead of him, because of the decisive victory Olson had over Turpin.

Tommy Hearns

08-21-2007, 04:17 PM

Thanks for replying TH, Whilst you've brought some interesting info to my attention, i would contend "catching Robinson off guard", as even SRR admitted that Turpin soundly beat him (the decision wasnt remotely contentious). Even in the rematch which i had Robinson up by only a point at the time of stoppage, Turpin was coming on and gave Robinson fits too.

I wouldnt say Robinson was out of shape going in as he had ideal preparation fighting the likes of Jean Stock, and van dam. Lest we not forget Robinson record going in something like 129-1-1.

Turpin's main problem was his fragile mentality as he lets his indescretions between the sheets affect his performances in the ring, especially his affair's leading upto the Olson fight put him in a bad state of mind as he was having his way for the first 3 rounds and as soon as got hit back he went into survival mode.

My point being is when ranking someone on ability, you should view them on his best night, and on Turpin's he beat the greatest fighter ever (who happened to be very close to his peak).

Don't get me wrong, Turpin’s unorthodox style would always disrupt Robinson rhythm and frustrate; however Ray proved in the rematch that, even if ever so slightly, he was a step ahead of his rival.

My point wasn’t that Turpin wasn’t a top class fighter or that he didn’t deserve credit for the Robinson win; it’s simply that much of his legacy is based on a single performance. Robinson’s name value adds more to the victory than warranted, IMO; he'll always be top three pound for pound (numero uno for me) but even the best are vulnerable. As I said, the Humez and Yarosz wins are excellent as well, but are they greater than Mims’s victories over Hank, Webb, and Benton? Or Giambra’s two decisions over both Giardello and Castellini as well as his years spent campaigning as a contender? Not in my book.

Nemesis

08-21-2007, 04:41 PM

Don't get me wrong, Turpin’s unorthodox style would always disrupt Robinson rhythm and frustrate; however Ray proved in the rematch that, even if ever so slightly, he was a step ahead of his rival.

My point wasn’t that Turpin wasn’t a top class fighter or that he didn’t deserve credit for the Robinson win; it’s simply that much of his legacy is based on a single performance. Robinson’s name value adds more to the victory than warranted, IMO; he'll always be top three pound for pound (numero uno for me) but even the best are vulnerable. As I said, the Humez and Yarosz wins are excellent as well, but are they greater than Mims’s victories over Hank, Webb, and Benton? Or Giambra’s two decisions over both Giardello and Castellini as well as his years spent campaigning as a contender? Not in my book.

the key point here is that Turpin, based in England, never really got the opportunity to take on the wealth of contenders in the US as once he had that win over SRR, what would be the point in taking on the likes of Giambra and Webb. I do understand your stance, just dont necessarily agree with it. :good

Manassa

08-22-2007, 03:43 PM

Fullmer at 3!,I dont see it

No? Who exactly would you put over him?

mcvey

08-22-2007, 05:30 PM

No? Who exactly would you put over him?
Bobo Olson
1951Lloyd Marshall wko5
52Walter Cartier wko5
Robert Villemainw10
Gene Hairston wko7
53 GarthPanter w10
Paddy Young 15
Randy Turpin w15
54Kid GavilanW15
Rocky CastellaniW15
Garth Panterwko8
Pierre Langlois wko11
55Joey Maxim w10
Tiger JonesW10
Joey Giambra w10
57 Joey Maxim w 10
Joey Giambra w10
58 Paddy Young w ko 6
59 Rory Calhoun w 10

These are winning fights for Olson during the decade ,I think they put him over Fullmer ,during the 50,s,Fullmer for acheivment top 4 for ability , as you specified, in the lower half of the top 10

mcvey

08-22-2007, 05:36 PM

No? Who exactly would you put over him?
Head to head ,prime for prime I think Turpin beats Fullmer,I beleive he would be strong enough to battle inside with the Mormon and that his straight left would find the mark and pile up points ,whether Turpin ,s fragile mentality would enable him to keep it together for 15 rds ,I dont know, but I think he has the tools to do it,plus he had good power.

Manassa

08-22-2007, 05:39 PM

Bobo Olson
1951Lloyd Marshall wko5
52Walter Cartier wko5
Robert Villemainw10
Gene Hairston wko7
53 GarthPanter w10
Paddy Young 15
Randy Turpin w15
54Kid GavilanW15
Rocky CastellaniW15
Garth Panterwko8
Pierre Langlois wko11
55Joey Maxim w10
Tiger JonesW10
Joey Giambra w10
57 Joey Maxim w 10
Joey Giambra w10
58 Paddy Young w ko 6
59 Rory Calhoun w 10

These are winning fights for Olson during the decade ,I think they put him over Fullmer ,during the 50,s,Fullmer for acheivment top 4 for ability , as you specified, in the lower half of the top 10

Gene Fullmer:

Ray Robinson x2
Carmen Basilio x2
Spider Webb x2
Tiger Jones x2
Charles Humez
Rocky Castellani
Paul Pender
Florentino Fernandez
Gil Turner x2
Del Flanagan
Kid Paret
Joe Miceli
Chico Vejar

I prefer Fullmer's list. And if Olson was knocked out by Robinson in four (the same Robinson Fullmer would then beat), then I can't see him drawing with Giardello or Tiger either.

mcvey

08-22-2007, 05:59 PM

Gene Fullmer:

Ray Robinson x2
Carmen Basilio x2
Spider Webb x2
Tiger Jones x2
Charles Humez
Rocky Castellani
Paul Pender
Florentino Fernandez
Gil Turner x2
Del Flanagan
Kid Paret
Joe Miceli
Chico Vejar

I prefer Fullmer's list. And if Olson was knocked out by Robinson in four (the same Robinson Fullmer would then beat), then I can't see him drawing with Giardello or Tiger either.
Five of Fullmers scalps were over welter weights ,six if you count Basilio,Olson had two wins over maxim on his resume a top LH,Fulmers draw with Giardello was in his back garden ,both blamed the other for the buttfest that took place ,Fullmer refused to fight Giardello again,have you read the accounts of the Fullmer draw with Tiger? Fullmer tried to box ,Tiger wrote a piece in the BI,saying Fullmer tried to steal the title rather than win it.

Manassa

08-22-2007, 06:08 PM

Five of Fullmers scalps were over welter weights ,six if you count Basilio,Olson had two wins over maxim on his resume a top LH,Fulmers draw with Giardello was in his back garden ,both blamed the other for the buttfest that took place ,Fullmer refused to fight Giardello again,have you read the accounts of the Fullmer draw with Tiger? Fullmer tried to box ,Tiger wrote a piece in the BI,saying Fullmer tried to steal the title rather than win it.

Why pick apart Fullmer's career? I can do the same to Olson; like saying how his best middleweight scalp - Marshall - was effectively 'shot' by the time he fought Olson.

But anyway, I based my ratings on ability. Being knocked out in four by a past prime Robinson does not bode well for Bobo. Fullmer beat that same Robinson a few months later. Neither does his knockout loss to Pat McMurtry. As I said, I can't see Olson doing as well as Fullmer did - but I can see him doing as well as Olson did, and better.

mcvey

08-22-2007, 06:23 PM

Why pick apart Fullmer's career? I can do the same to Olson; like saying how his best middleweight scalp - Marshall - was effectively 'shot' by the time he fought Olson.

But anyway, I based my ratings on ability. Being knocked out in four by a past prime Robinson does not bode well for Bobo. Fullmer beat that same Robinson a few months later. Neither does his knockout loss to Pat McMurtry. As I said, I can't see Olson doing as well as Fullmer did - but I can see him doing as well as Olson did, and better.
Im not picking apart Fullmer Im comparing his resume to Olsons ,you gave me 13 namesthat Fullmer beat ,5 of them were welter weights 6 if you count the 32 and 33 year old Basilio,getting kod by Mcmutry isn a disgrace Mcmutry fought with success all the way up to heavy.Id say Olson best middle weight scalp would be Turpin,and 2 wins over Maxim match 5 over welters. Fullmer acheived a great deal,especially as he didnt do anything particularly well he wasnt much of a boxer ,or a big hitter ,but he was very very strong and durable,he rabbit puncher the shit out of Robinson,billy goated Giardello ,but he got the most out of what he had,I just think Olson should be above him during the 50s,you asked ,I replied finis.

Manassa

08-22-2007, 06:26 PM

Well I think you'll find you are quite alone with regards to your placement of Olson over Fullmer. It's understandable... After all, you're an old man. Probably going senile.

mcvey

08-22-2007, 06:48 PM

Well I think you'll find you are quite alone with regards to your placement of Olson over Fullmer. It's understandable... After all, you're an old man. Probably going senile.
Being alone in my opinions doesnt worry me overmuch I rate Johnson no 2 at Heavyweight ,not exactly the consensus,compared to you I am an old man,and possibly going senile,but I still have the good manners to listen to your point of view without insulting you ,just because I disagree with it. You write some interesting posts on boxing ,a subject you obviously find absorbing,but its possible you arent quite the doyen of pugilism you appear to beleive you are,when I firstr read your efforts ,it was all Duran this and Duran that,that got superseded by Ike Williams,so I found myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you,the next "flavour of the month" was Carlos Ortiz,,who is it next ,I wonder? One advantage of being old is that I grew up watching these guys on the Saturday fight of the week,during the 50s and 60s,so I have had time to form a permanent opinion of them, as you will .Age doesnt have to bring wisdom,but it does make you less likely to get the hump when callow youth rears up because you disagree with it,dont dissapoint us on this forum you have a lot to offer, leave the insults to the numpties.

Nemesis

08-22-2007, 07:21 PM

Well I think you'll find you are quite alone with regards to your placement of Olson over Fullmer. It's understandable... After all, you're an old man. Probably going senile.extremely crass

Manassa

08-22-2007, 08:01 PM

Oh, how I love winding people up :smooch

mcvey

08-22-2007, 09:35 PM

Oh, how I love winding people up :smooch
You havent wound anybody up ,but I think you have shown somebody up,take a guess who.

Manassa

08-22-2007, 09:57 PM

You havent wound anybody up ,but I think you have shown somebody up,take a guess who.

I'm not the one going on a rant :good

mcvey

08-23-2007, 06:18 AM

I'm not the one going on a rant :good
"When I was a child----etc"

mcvey

08-23-2007, 08:15 AM

Gene Fullmer:

Ray Robinson x2
Carmen Basilio x2
Spider Webb x2
Tiger Jones x2
Charles Humez
Rocky Castellani
Paul Pender
Florentino Fernandez
Gil Turner x2
Del Flanagan
Kid Paret
Joe Miceli
Chico Vejar

I prefer Fullmer's list. And if Olson was knocked out by Robinson in four (the same Robinson Fullmer would then beat), then I can't see him drawing with Giardello or Tiger either.
Olson also went the distance with Robinson to lose a dec over 15 when Robinson was 31 and nearer his prime,Fullmer drew with Robinson when Ray was 39 and beat him when he was 40. Mcmurtry beat Olson in57 when Bobo was fighting as a heavy weight ,[187],so that result isnt relevant concerning the 50s middle weights,the fact remains that nearly half of Fullmers best wins during the 50s were over welter weights,one of whom ,Gil Turner dropped him,he was also dropped by Eduardo Lausse,and Bobby Boyd in losing matches. Its true Olson was kod by Robinson ,but so was Fullmer ,by the famous ,"perfect punch".