Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe

[ironchamp]

At thier absolute best who has the best chance of coming out undefeated (if thats even possible) assuming they all fought each other in a tournament.

[Russell]

Not Holyfield, that's for sure.

[hopkinsfan07]

id say Lennox Lewis because he did beat all of them at one point and in primes i still think he would beat them all

[mr. magoo]

I don't think any of them would walk out of a tournament against each other in their prime unblemished. Bowe lost to Holyfield and beat him twice, so that excludes both of those guys. Lewis drew with a very past prime Holyfield and was beaten by Mccall and Rahman, therefore we can scratch him off the list as being invincible. Tyson was probably the most impressive during the hay day of his reign, but who knows if the Mike who fought Berbick is going show up, or the one who fought Douglas.

[ironchamp]

Looks like Tyson and Lewis seem to be the consensus.

[hobgoblin]

id say Lennox Lewis because he did beat all of them at one point and in primes i still think he would beat them all

That is sound reasoning. I can't object to your choice but here is my thinking...

NOT Riddick Bowe because I think Lewis would likely beat him, Tyson would be the favorite, and Holy could go either way.

NOT Mike Tyson (sigh) because Holyfield would beat him.

It's between Lewis & Holy. I'm gonna go with Holy, here is why. Although Lewis would beat more of the other ATGs (incidentally maybe not with just Tyson & Bowe) from Dempsey to Holmes, head to head, I actually pick a young Holyfield to outwork and outpoint a prime Lewis (any version). His speed, reflexes, youthful resilience, prime boxing skills, etc would allow him to deal with the bigger and more powerful Lewis IMO.

Lewis is 60/40 against Tyson; 70/30 against Bowe; 30-70 against Holy; Holy is 50/50 against Bowe; 70/30 against Tyson; 70-30 against Lewis

As you can see, Holy wins marginally. I don't pick Lewis because I think Holy beats him and Tyson has a real good shot.

[carll68]

Intersting tourament...what a treat it would be...all in their primes. Ok, my 2 sents...Tyson has the msot natural talent, foot speed, hand speed and leverage from which his power was crafted, defensive head movement, chin, desire (prime), conditioning, determination...so I would take him if pressed but every fighter has their Achilles heal..so, here is what I say,,remember PRIME:

Tyson can clearly beat everyone except Holyfield, whose style would/could present problems (or make him look foolish..the thought "if Bert Cooper could" comes to mind)

Holyfield can beat everyone except Bowe who is a stylistic problem

Bowe can beat everyone accept Tyson

Lewis, despite his deep talent, lacked agression and the killer instinc when faced with pressure..so although he may be the best technical fighter of the bunch (well, may being the operative word) he would be the weakest link of the tourney

[ironchamp]

That is sound reasoning. I can't object to your choice but here is my thinking...

NOT Riddick Bowe because I think Lewis would likely beat him, Tyson would be the favorite, and Holy could go either way.

NOT Mike Tyson (sigh) because Holyfield would beat him.

It's between Lewis & Holy. I'm gonna go with Holy, here is why. Although Lewis would beat more of the other ATGs (incidentally maybe not with just Tyson & Bowe) from Dempsey to Holmes, head to head, I actually pick a young Holyfield to outwork and outpoint a prime Lewis (any version). His speed, reflexes, youthful resilience, prime boxing skills, etc would allow him to deal with the bigger and more powerful Lewis IMO.

Lewis is 60/40 against Tyson; 70/30 against Bowe; 30-70 against Holy; Holy is 50/50 against Bowe; 70/30 against Tyson; 70-30 against Lewis

As you can see, Holy wins marginally. I don't pick Lewis because I think Holy beats him and Tyson has a real good shot.

Interesting analysis...

Truthfully I think

Bowe beats Holyfield but loses to Tyson and Lewis

Lewis beats Bowe but gets stopped by Tyson and loses a razor thin decision to Holyfield. I am one to believe that Holyfield would have always struggled with Lewis. Though a young version had the workrate to pull it off.

Holyfield barely beats Lewis, loses to Bowe and loses to Tyson as well. I believe that Holyfield aged much better than Mike and as a result was able to beat Mike via smarts.

I think Tyson beats them all but I welcome disagreements.

[carll68]

I respect your opinion....well thought out...however, i see Lewis as the weak link...an agressive Holyfeild could tame him, and Tyson as the strong player, especially focussed and properly trained, only Holyfeild can frustrate him potentially...but..yes..Holy aged better than Mike, and had a great fight plan versus an overconfident, head hunting Tyson...

[ironchamp]

I respect your opinion....well thought out...however, i see Lewis as the weak link...an agressive Holyfeild could tame him, and Tyson as the strong player, especially focussed and properly trained, only Holyfeild can frustrate him potentially...but..yes..Holy aged better than Mike, and had a great fight plan versus an overconfident, head hunting Tyson...

Incidentally who did you vote for?

[Zakman]

I respect your opinion....well thought out...however, i see Lewis as the weak link...an agressive Holyfeild could tame him, and Tyson as the strong player, especially focussed and properly trained, only Holyfeild can frustrate him potentially...but..yes..Holy aged better than Mike, and had a great fight plan versus an overconfident, head hunting Tyson...

Exactly. And given that guys like McCall and Rahman blew him out early, it's hard to imagine that at least one of these guys in their primes wouldn't knock him out. In fact, I think they all would.

[carll68]

I voted for Tyson....with confidence, although Holy would/could pose problems.. the jab and mover was not really the way to beat Tyson as many think a la Tillis and the Anomoly that was Douglas...who fought a tremendous fight against a unprepared Tyson......Conversally, Holy had the style..and chin...to make a fight of it....IMHO....I also agree, as I read on another board, that Tyson would have defeated Larry Holmes, who, make no msitake, was a great chanpion...

Lewis was a talent to be sure...however in my minds eye, he was ill suited for the agression - speed - power -detemination of Tyson. Bowe would try to bang with him (Tyson), and be to slow. Holy would severly out hustle Lewis, Bowe would out punch him, and had the intangibles. heart/chin, to beat lewis..we often forget how good Bowe really was....

[brooklyn1550]

Lennox Lewis

[carll68]

Exactly. And given that guys like McCall and Rahman blew him out early, it's hard to imagine that at least one of these guys in their primes wouldn't knock him out. In fact, I think they all would.

I can also see that Zack...and..its very hard for me to see Holy or Bowe or Tyson getting wacked in this tourney....
Lewis was the best of his era...but his era was not that good....and he rarely made short work of his opposition to "wow" the fans, (sans the Golota debacle, and a Tyson beatan Razor) and quite frequently got in trouble himself
Todays scene is better in my opinion....

[streetsaresafer]

I think Holyfield had the best chance to pull it off -

I'd rate them like this
1. Holyfield
2. Tyson
3. Bowe
4. Lewis

Holyfield - 75/25 to beat Lewis
A 37 year old Holyfield fought a very close fight with Lewis in the rematch - and by this point Holyfield didn't have near the workrate he did in his prime. Lewis would always present some problems for Holyfield (size, jab, 84 inch reach) but I think Holyfield outworks Lewis to a close but clear UD. Lewis was supposedly prime in those 2 fights against Holyfield and still he never seriously hurt Evander, and you throw in the fact that while Lewis was an impressive accomplished champion - he was clearly the least agressive of the four fighters listed. Lewis's chin was questionable and clearly that makes him the least likely to win this thing.

Holyfield - 55/45 to beat Bowe
Probably the toughest win for Evander but I'd still favor him slightly over Bowe. While Bowe won their first matchup, I still only had Bowe winning 115-112 the last time I watched it - Holyfield was certainly in that fight. Holy won 115-112 the last time I watched their 2nd fight. Obviously the key here is would Holy box Bowe or try to war too much like he did in the first fight? That's the question - but since this is a prime discussion I would assume that we are getting the best Holyfield so I'll say he uses more of the gameplan of the 2nd fight and he edges Bowe in a close decision.

Holyfield - 60/40 to beat Tyson
This would be an amazing fight, but Holyfield had the counterpunching style and granite chin to give even a prime Tyson all sorts of challenges. No doubt Tyson would be harder to hit than he was in 96, no doubt Tyson's stamina would be better than 96, but Holyfield to me was always a better and more diverse fighter than Tyson was. Prime Tyson was incredible, but he had to fight coming forward and even in his prime was open to getting hit - perfect for Holyfield's counterpunching style. Again he had the chin to withstand the early Tyson barrage. Holyfield would probably back Tyson up some like he did in 96 which would frustrate Tyson. And I think as the fight goes on Holyfield starts to wear Tyson down with jabs and left hooks and he stops him by the 12th. Great fight though and no doubt Tyson could win.

So I like Holyfield because he had the best chin of the four fighters so I don't see him being knocked out, and his workrate and offensive skills in his prime were arguably the best of the bunch. The only thing a prime Holyfield lacked was the one punch KO power that the other 3 had. But prime Holyfield still KO'd his fair share of fighters, and a past prime Holyfield knocked down Bowe and knocked out Tyson.

After Holyfield, prime Tyson has the best shot.

[B]Tyson 85/15 to beat Lewis
Lewis's chin was questionable and a prime Tyson would get to it within the first four rounds and put him out. If 2nd tier fighters like McCall and Rahman could put Lewis out with one punch, then prime Tyson certainly could and likely would. I know Lewis was in with punchers like Ruddock and Tua and others, but honestly those 2 losses can't be ignored. No other ATG heavy has those kinds of defeats - that's enough to give me concern. Lewis's chin was certainly not weak (I have seen the YouTube video), but I would say it was questionable and that is enough to give Tyson a big edge in this one. Lewis does present some problems no doubt - big size and reach advantage, and Lewis could score some uppercuts probably - but again not enough that I'd pick him to win. If Lewis pulls it off, it is probably by a close decision. But to me this is the easiest fight to pick of the bunch.

Tyson 65/35 to beat Bowe
Fascinating fight, I give Bowe a better chance than Lewis to beat a prime Tyson because he had a better chin and was much more agressive than Lewis. Bowe could hit Tyson on the outside with his jab, and was a great in fighter and would score pretty big there as well. Either way this fight would be over within the first 6 rounds of the fight. But Tyson had better defense and I think eventually he puts Bowe out. Great fight though.

Bowe 50/50 to beat Lewis
This is the most difficult fight to pick a winner in. In 93 I am pretty confident Bowe would have knocked Lewis out. In 95 I am pretty sure that Lewis would have knocked Bowe out. But prime v. prime either man has a shot. Certainly Lewis had the massive right hand and the unquestionably superior defense, but Bowe's chin and agression and his own power could no doubt put Lewis in trouble as well.

Either way, the reason I rank Bowe's chances as better than Lewis's is that he would have a much better chance to beat Holyfield and Tyson than Lewis would. Against each other, not sure either way.

Great queston though - just wish we could have seen some of these fights.

[ripcity]

If they fought each other "A" Game vs "A" Game
Lewis 3-0
Tyson 2-1
Bowe 1-2
Holyfield 0-3
Tyson and Bowe could upset Lewis
Bowe could upset Tyson.

[Holmes' Jab]

1. Lewis
2. Tyson
3. Holyfield
4. Bowe

That would be my pecking order, though I don't think any of these guys would emerge unbeaten in such a tournament.

[TBooze]

At thier absolute best who has the best chance of coming out undefeated (if thats even possible) assuming they all fought each other in a tournament.


Lewis WU15 Tyson

Bowe WU15 Holyfield

Lewis WU15 Holyfield

Bowe WU15 Tyson

Holyfield WU15 Tyson

Lewis KO4 Bowe

[DamonD]

I still feel that the very best Holyfield can beat the very best Bowe. Bowe was in questionable shape for the '93 fight but I still think that is the gameplan for Holyfield to beat even a 235lb Bowe.

[fists of fury]

That is sound reasoning. I can't object to your choice but here is my thinking...

NOT Riddick Bowe because I think Lewis would likely beat him, Tyson would be the favorite, and Holy could go either way.

NOT Mike Tyson (sigh) because Holyfield would beat him.

It's between Lewis & Holy. I'm gonna go with Holy, here is why. Although Lewis would beat more of the other ATGs (incidentally maybe not with just Tyson & Bowe) from Dempsey to Holmes, head to head, I actually pick a young Holyfield to outwork and outpoint a prime Lewis (any version). His speed, reflexes, youthful resilience, prime boxing skills, etc would allow him to deal with the bigger and more powerful Lewis IMO.

Lewis is 60/40 against Tyson; 70/30 against Bowe; 30-70 against Holy; Holy is 50/50 against Bowe; 70/30 against Tyson; 70-30 against Lewis

As you can see, Holy wins marginally. I don't pick Lewis because I think Holy beats him and Tyson has a real good shot.

Just for the record I also picked Holyfield.

[ChrisPontius]

I don't think any of these fighters would remain undefeated.
Here is how i see the matchups:

50/50:

Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson. Prime for prime, i think it could go either way. Tyson overwhelms and lands enough on him early to take him out, or Lewis takes Tyson out late.

Mike Tyson vs Evander Holyfield I would choose exactly the version of Holyfield that beat Tyson in 1996 because i think the earlier versions of him lack the ring intelligence and calmness when tagged. He beat a '96 Tyson relatively comfortably which was a very good Tyson, but the '88 one was quite a bit better so i'd make this one 50/50 as well.

Mike Tyson & Lennox Lewis vs Riddick Bowe
Bowe's lack of defense and willingness to mix it up would cost him against both of these men who are in a different world when it comes to punching power. And punching ability, for that matter. Bowe would fight gallantly but would be outlanded and while he could take 3 of Holyfields punches to land 1 of his own early and still come out fresher, that would definitly not work against Tyson & Lewis.

Tyson TKO5 Bowe
Lewis TKO7 Bowe


Evander Holyfield vs Riddick Bowe
We've already seen this one in 1992:
Bowe UD Holyfield


Evander Holyfield vs Lennox Lewis
Lewis dominated an aging but still champion Holyfield by a 9-3 decision (on fair scorecards) in their first bout and by an 8-4 decision when he fought Holyfields fight in the rematch. Whenever he used the jab to good effort, Holyfield could do very little about it. I think a prime Holyfield would lose a 7-5 or 8-4 decision unless Lewis fights Holyfields fight, but there is no reason to assume he does, considering he didn't in their first fight. In the second fight he did it to avoid getting robbed again.

Lewis UD Holyfield


So adding it up and depending on how the 50/50 fights turn out:

1. Lewis: 3-0 or 2-1
2. Tyson: 3-0, 2-1 or 1-2
3. Bowe: 1-2
4. Holyfield: 1-2 or 0-3


Therefore, Lewis got my vote. Before i did this analysis i thought Bowe would end 4th and Holyfield 3rd, by the way. There is little between Tyson and Lewis, both could well be #1, but Tyson having one extra 50/50 fight made the difference. A small difference however, i think there's a bigger difference between the 1&2's and the 3&4's.

[Stonehands89]

On their best nights:

Bowe (~3-0)
Holyfield (2-1)
Lewis (1-2)
Tyson (~1-2)

... the only one who beat a prime other is Bowe, who beat a prime Holyfield. I believe that just as Tyson finds his foil in Holyfield, Holyfield finds his foil in Bowe. I think that Bowe is slightly favored over Lewis and had a style that was about as skill-injected as Douglas in Tokyo, so I'd favor him slightly over Tyson.

[Cojimar 1945]

Why would one include Bowe in the debate?

[NickHudson]

While each of these men is good enough on their best night to pose problems for anyone, in a tournament where they all post their top 3 career performance I think Tyson is the most likely to go 3-0 (although this is not inevitable by any means) and Lewis is most likely to go 0-3 (although again this is not inevitable).

I would vote for Bowe and Holyfield to represent the middle ground; they would go 1-2 or 2-1 IMO.

Exactly. And given that guys like McCall and Rahman blew him out early, it's hard to imagine that at least one of these guys in their primes wouldn't knock him out. In fact, I think they all would.

[bigG]

i thi[I]nk going on absolute prime vs prime....and assuming holyfield doesnt let his game plan go out the window this time...he is the only one who could come out without a loss.....prime evander would most likely stop prime lewis late on, stop prime tyson late on, or win a clear u/d and outpoint bowe over the full distance.......i know this wont go down well, but i truly believe the bowe who beat holyfield knocks out prime lewis and tyson.......tyson then, at his peak, loses to prime bowe and prime holyfield but kos lewis.....i dont see prime lewis beating any of these guys in their pomp......lewis was a tremendous champion, but he never fought any of his rivals in their primes....not his fault, boxing politics and out of the ring shennanigans stopped these fights, or, just the fact that, for instance, 'vanders prime came several years before lewis came to the ascendancy....prime lewis vs prime tyson is the only one i have doubts about, cos lewis was a big man, a hard puncher, and was accurate..and, importantly, could follow a game plan...but lewis seemed more adapt at following game plans to the letter when he was past his physical prime in the ring...in his physical prime, i really think he gets drawn into the trenches by tyson, vander and bowe...with alarming consequences..... the tyson who destroyed tyrell biggs for instance would mullah lewis....

[Ted Stickles]

Either Lewis or Holyfield because both have sshown more than ocnce they can rise to the occasion

[achillesthegreat]

Lewis is the most well rounded fighter of the lot of em. If they fought each other three times he comes away victorious.

Intangiables is bound to ruin Tyson and Bowe in two out of three meetings. They'd mentally break down, come in out of shape, not even take the rematch, quit etc

Holy just didn't have what it takes to beat Lewis. He'd give him a close and very competative fight on his night but lose a valiant 7-5.

[bigG]

i presumed we were talking about prime vs prime...rightly, as you say, if we throw in any intangibles like mental frailty, dedication etc....then bowe and tyson could blow up.....but one of lewis biggest failings was a tendency to underestimate his opponents and fight to the perceived threat level...look at his ko losses to rahman and mcall, struggles with mercer and bruno and his punch perfect performances against tua and tyson...taking intaqngibles into consideration, i lean more heavily towards holyfield..even when he had bad days at the office, he still aquited himself well...and an ageinjg holy performed well against 'prime' lewis twice.......holy beats em all..

[Boro chris]

Exactly. And given that guys like McCall and Rahman blew him out early, it's hard to imagine that at least one of these guys in their primes wouldn't knock him out. In fact, I think they all would.


What a fucking surprise.

Lewis and Tyson are the most likely, Mikes the most talented of the bunch and has the best chance against Lewis but I feel he'd self destruct at some point. Lewis is the most consistant but in reality I think they'd all take a loss at some point.

Actually this is a really interesting thread, all three are so close head 2 head.

[Lacyace]

Lennox for sure.

Lennox KO11 Tyson
Lennox UD Bowe
Lennox UD Holyfield

I think Bowe will beat both Holyfield and Tyson. Tyson beats Holyfield. I don't think Holyfield beats any of them.

[Vanboxingfan]

My take is as follows:

Lewis/Bowe (60-40) Lewis. Lewis would simply bring too much to the table in terms of power and skill

Lewis/Tyson (50-50) This is a hard one to call. Tyson early, Lewis late

Tyson/Bowe (60-40) Like Lewis, Tyson brings to much to the table in terms of power, skill and sheer agression

Bowe/Holyfield (60-40) As some have pointed out this trilogy actually took place and was won by Bowe. Difficult style for Holyfield

Lewis/Holyfield (55-45) This too is a hard fight to call. But partly based on the results of the Bowe trilogy and the two fights they actually fought, I'd give a slight edge to Lewis. But no upset if Holyfield pulled it off

Holyfield/Tyson (55-45) Yet another hard one to call. But they did fight, and Holyfield knew how to beat Tyson, so I think style wise he could have done it earlier.

So depending on the Lewis-Tyson fight I have

Lewis either 3-0 or 2-1,
Tyson either 2-1 or 1-1
Bowe 1-2
Holyfield 1-2

[ironchamp]

My take:

Tyson beats Lewis, Holyfield and Bowe. 3-0 (2-1 possibly)

Lewis beats Holyfield, Bowe and loses to Tyson 2-1

Bowe beats Holyfield and loses to Tyson and Bowe 1-2 (possibly 2-1)

Holyfield losses to all although he may get Lennox 0-3 (possibly 1-2)