Roy Jones Jr. vs. Marvin Hagler, at middleweight< who wins?

[Canibus81]

I think this would of been a good fight to see. I think hagler would of won this fight, mostly cause of his pressure.

[McGrain]

Jones had hardly any title-level experience at MW. Putting him in with a beast like peak Hagler is unfair to me! Jones has a difficult style of course, but I think Hagler would get to him.

[Canibus81]

Jones had hardly any title-level experience at MW. Putting him in with a beast like peak Hagler is unfair to me! Jones has a difficult style of course, but I think Hagler would get to him.


WEll have them fight at a catchweight, lets says 165. Roy was a beast at 168 and was still at his fastest at 160. So he definetly wasn't too big for hagler.

[McGrain]

For me, it is a matter of experience more than size. I'd take Roy with some experience under his belts to beat Hagler over 160.

[Hatesrats]

Hagler by K.O.
Too much, Too good, Jones Jr. would be broken down over 15 Rds.
(I'm talkin' PRIME Marvin, get that SRL fight version out of your mind)

[Canibus81]

Hagler by K.O.
Too much, Too good, Jones Jr. would be broken down over 15 Rds.
(I'm talkin' PRIME Marvin, get that SRL fight version out of your mind)

OK, but it goes both ways, prime Roy Jones Jr.

[196osh]

I would tend to agree with McGrain, although Hagler would not "get to him" imo. He would rally late on points to beat Jones after being at a defecet early on.

Hagler vs a 168lb Jones at a catchweight would be a clear and descive win for Roy.

[FromWithin]

S.e.a.r.c.h

[Sweet Pea]

The better mystery questions would be:

Ali or Tyson?

Would Lewis have stopped Vitali?

Who's the GOAT?

Was Sweet Pea really robbed against Chavez?

Those are some questions that need answering, as they've only been asked roughly 1,234,156 times a piece, as opposed to the 2,367,382 times this one's been asked.

[Robbi]

:blood

[laxpdx]

This is a pretty even fight while it lasts. Roy gives Marvin problems early on with his speed, but Hagler adapts. Over 12, I think it's a decision either man could take. 15 rounds? Hagler's pressure begins to wear Jones down after the 12th. By rounds 14-15, Marvin's tenacity finally overtakes Roy en route to a hard-fought TKO.

[Mike South]

We're being asked to ignore an over the hill Hagler's loss against an over the hill Leonard, and I think that situates the argument too much.

I can't see Jones losing at middleweight. He was KOing guys with one shot at middleweight. He was a powerhouse plus he had incredible footwork, unbelievable handspeed, unorthodox style, effectiveness in either stance...

But I don't know Hagler that well because most of my films of him - except for Hearns and Leonard - are his fights against the dozens and dozens of no-name set-ups that he fought in his career.

Like I said, I don't know him that well - what does he have that beats Jones? I'm not being smart, I'm honestly asking. The answer seems to be pressure, but who didn't try to pressure Jones? Hopkins wasn't trying to fight in the middle of the ring, and he's no slouch at the pressure game - in fact I think Hopkins vs Hagler is a more interesting fantasy match-up.

What does Hagler have that the other fellows didn't? What does he have that beats Jones? Why would Hagler be able to pressure Jones at middleweight when no-one else could?

[MAG1965]

I think Hagler is much better than anyone Roy fought at middleweight. Hagler stops Roy in about 7 or 8. Hagler would reach Roy's chin, and once he did that Roy does not last long at all.

[turpinr]

I think Hagler is much better than anyone Roy fought at middleweight. Hagler stops Roy in about 7 or 8. Hagler would reach Roy's chin, and once he did that Roy does not last long at all.

i agree,jones has exceptional speed but hagler would get close enough to negate that problem.

[196osh]

I think Hagler is much better than anyone Roy fought at middleweight. Hagler stops Roy in about 7 or 8. Hagler would reach Roy's chin, and once he did that Roy does not last long at all.


Go watch some Roy Jones fights, in particular vs Hopkins.

Hopkins repeatedly lands right hands (that would constitute reaching Jones chin eh) and it does jack all.

Jones showed zero chin issues at 160/168. He neither looked like getting hurt or stopped.

Hagler has went the distance 13 times, every single fighter he went the distance with every single one did not have the ability of Roy Jones Jr.

Add that to the fact that Roy's counter punching, moving style would cause Marvin issues. It is a ridiculous over rating of a fighter from the past.

Hagler winning, hell even Hagler stopping Jones late over 15 is not out of the realm of posibility, to suggest that Hagler stops Jones in 7 or 8 is a fallacy.

[196osh]

i agree,jones has exceptional speed but hagler would get close enough to negate that problem.


Why?

[Dave's Top Ten]

We're being asked to ignore an over the hill Hagler's loss against an over the hill Leonard, and I think that situates the argument too much.

I can't see Jones losing at middleweight. He was KOing guys with one shot at middleweight. He was a powerhouse plus he had incredible footwork, unbelievable handspeed, unorthodox style, effectiveness in either stance...

But I don't know Hagler that well because most of my films of him - except for Hearns and Leonard - are his fights against the dozens and dozens of no-name set-ups that he fought in his career.

Like I said, I don't know him that well - what does he have that beats Jones? I'm not being smart, I'm honestly asking. The answer seems to be pressure, but who didn't try to pressure Jones? Hopkins wasn't trying to fight in the middle of the ring, and he's no slouch at the pressure game - in fact I think Hopkins vs Hagler is a more interesting fantasy match-up.

What does Hagler have that the other fellows didn't? What does he have that beats Jones? Why would Hagler be able to pressure Jones at middleweight when no-one else could?


:patsch I suggest you watch some of his fights on YouTube

[headhunter]

Hagler over 15

Roy over 12

[Mike South]

:patsch I suggest you watch some of his fights on YouTube

I will. Help me out by telling me what I'm looking for.

[leverage]

It's a tough call to make. On one hand you have the never say die hagler, one of the all-time greats of the division against jones, who is one of the most gifted boxers of this or any generation and also an all-time great.

As i've stated before, styles make fights and jones definitely had the stlye to beat as well as the speed and reflexes. My only question is how would jones handle someone like hagler who was aggressive and hard punching, and if he possessed the heart neccessary to beat him.

This is where jones is unproven imo. Hagler has an etablished record of handling tough, quality fighters and jones record pales in comparison. Hagler has faced tougher opponents and fought through adversity to overcome his foes, displaying a champions heart. Jones hasn't in fact hasn't fought everyone that he could and should have as being a champion.

Theoretically,(on paper) Jones could outbox hagler with his far superior speed and win a decision, however I'm going with the more proven warrior. Hagler by late round tko in a highly entertaining fight.

[leverage]

:patsch I suggest you watch some of his fights on YouTube
Right on. Clearly you underestimte the effect that haglers pressure could have on an opponent. Besides, there was nobody in the division who applied pressure the way hagler did.

[rusty nails]

Go watch some Roy Jones fights, in particular vs Hopkins.

Hopkins repeatedly lands right hands (that would constitute reaching Jones chin eh) and it does jack all.

Jones showed zero chin issues at 160/168. He neither looked like getting hurt or stopped.

Hagler has went the distance 13 times, every single fighter he went the distance with every single one did not have the ability of Roy Jones Jr.

Add that to the fact that Roy's counter punching, moving style would cause Marvin issues. It is a ridiculous over rating of a fighter from the past.

Hagler winning, hell even Hagler stopping Jones late over 15 is not out of the realm of posibility, to suggest that Hagler stops Jones in 7 or 8 is a fallacy.

haglers one of my absolute favourites but im ganna have to agree with this..
jones is a nightmare for hagler..
ill add that jones is faster, hits harder and has infinately better footwork and this could be a real flogging..
if this was over twelve rounds i dont think hagler would take more than 3 of them and thats being generous.

[DRMULLEN]

hagler, is one of the greatest fighters peroid.. a peak jones from 160 to 168 one nite only.. had wins over hopkins and toney a zillions yrs later hops is better than ever. toney on a good nite prehaps could get a title. i still cant pick.. jones, was the fastest human being i ever seen..

[turpinr]

Why?

why , because that speed is brilliant but when you come up against an immovable object like the marvellous one it wouldn't be enough.

[Flea Man]

I would be temped to say Draw. Jones doesn't make my top 20 HW's, I have Hagler at no.1, but H2H Jones measures up well against any ATG in any of the divisionms he competed in (bar HW)

[196osh]

why , because that speed is brilliant but when you come up against an immovable object like the marvellous one it wouldn't be enough.


So all Roy has over Hagler is speed... :blood?

Try Speed (foot and hand), Power, Reflex's, Natural Size, Styles, Punch variety, Ring IQ.

Jones would have hit Hagler from the outside and not engadged, but Jones doesn't pot shot with light punches, he throw's lighting fast combinations with viscous power.

He also takes body punches better and more easily than any fighter I have seen, and does not slow down.

Sure could Hagler win, yeah. But Jones would be the hardest fight at that weight that he could have by miles.

[turpinr]

[quote=196osh;3592136]So all Roy has over Hagler is speed... :blood?

Try Speed (foot and hand), Power, Reflex's, Natural Size, Styles, Punch variety, Ring IQ.

Jones would have hit Hagler from the outside and not engadged, but Jones doesn't pot shot with light punches, he throw's lighting fast combinations with viscous power.

He also takes body punches better and more easily than any fighter I have seen, and does not slow down.

Sure could Hagler win, yeah. But Jones would be the hardest fight at that weight that he could have by miles.[/qu


is jones allowed to take his sweeties and what about his chin ?????
i'll agree on the speed thing,he was unnaturally fast.fastest i've ever seen

[196osh]

is jones allowed to take his sweeties

Speculation. I am sure you know that nobody has any evidence that he took anything other than an over the counter at that time unband substance.

and what about his chin ?????

Jones took plenty of shots before, see the Hopkins fight, hell Ruiz hit him with at least 3 soild right hands. Never looked like going down.

The only time he was down was vs De Valle at 175 who hit Jones with a Heavy shot and still managed to lose every round.

His chin is fine.

[Flea Man]

Speculation. I am sure you know that nobody has any evidence that he took anything other than an over the counter at that time unband substance.



Jones took plenty of shots before, see the Hopkins fight, hell Ruiz hit him with at least 3 soild right hands. Never looked like going down.

The only time he was down was vs De Valle at 175 who hit Jones with a Heavy shot and still managed to lose every round.

His chin is fine.

:good:good:good:good:good

His legs were gone after the sudden move back down to LHW. Had he gone down to CW I think he would still be strong. But his legs were gone, he didn't look great in the first Tarver fight, and after the 2nd fight he was mentally shot and gun shy. Hence why Johnson beat him.

I would say after the Johnson loss he was shot. He has been since then, though I think he still shows flashes of brilliance.

However, Hagler COULD wear him down.

I'm tempted to say DRAW over 12, Hagler over 15 or possibly late stoppage.

[Holmes' Jab]

Hagler over 15

Roy over 12


I agree here.

[jaffay]

HAGLER both 12 and 15 rounds

[JohnThomas1]

Jones by decision courtesy of his incredible speed and evasiveness.

[Bummy Davis]

I think Roy could box and move and keep Hagler at bay the way Leonard did but I also think that Left cross that felled Hearns can fell Jones (like Southpaw Tarver did)........Marvin can do it but has to go to war like he did against Hearns and not get into the cat and mouse game like he did vs SRL

[Dave's Top Ten]

I think Roy could box and move and keep Hagler at bay the way Leonard did but I also think that Left cross that felled Hearns can fell Jones (like Southpaw Tarver did)........Marvin can do it but has to go to war like he did against Hearns and not get into the cat and mouse game like he did vs SRL

I don't think so, Bummy. I don't think Hagler has to go to war in the way that he did with Hearns. I've seen a lot of Hagler fights and read about a few more, and the only time he fought like he did against Hearns, was against Hearns. This was a one off, imo. I don't think Hagler would do it and I think he's be crazy to try it. Jones would evade it, tie him up and give away the first two round and then get his fight on.

On the other hand if Hagler boxes Jones, then he's in deep trouble. Hagler had tremendous, and very underrated boxing skills, but he doesn't have the speed and reflexes of Jones. Hagler's key weakness is that he often boxed when he should have fought - Duran and Leonard come to mind. I think he beat Duran handily, but he almost allowed himself to be robbed by the judges by not going for the more decisive win. I also thought he edged Leonard, but he could have given Leonard fits and won more convincingly if he'd come out more aggressively with an opponent who was admittedly apprehensive about the prospect of that happening.

But Leonard is Leonard and Duran is Duran. Two of the greatest fighters ever, both top ten in many peoples view. RJ is not in the same league, frankly. With Duran, especially, you didn't know what you would get. His survival tactics against Hagler were unexpected by many and served him well against Hagler who expected an aggressive Duran.

With Jones, you know what you are gonna get. He's not gonna come winging against Hagler. He's going to box and use speed and move. He'll go to the ropes and try and be tricky and counterpunch there. There's no mystery to the tactics. With this in mind, Hagler won't try to box. Even the Petronellis ain't that dumb. I see Hagler using skillful agression, whacking the body when he has Jones against the ropes, and using that great jab to keep Jones thinking. I can't see Jones living with the sustained pressure. At some point it's gonna get intense and I think Hagler wins by stoppage late, very close on scorecards. A Jones win is not out of the question, but it would be the result of poor Hagler tactics, which is not unimaginable. Bottom line though, I don't see a performance at middleweight by Jones that makes me think he could do it.

[GPater11093]

Hagler has to used his controlled effective aggression to wear down Jones with body shots he will probably lose the first few rounds but come on strong late and IMO KO him aorund the 13th

[p.Townend]

I think Hagler would win it on points,Jones would make a good fight of it and it would be close.

[AussieMauler]

To all the fans of old time fighters being in better condition.....if we are to assume they are training for a real fight, can we at least assume Roy prepares for 15 rounds. Anyone saying that ROY wins in 12 but loses in 15 is being completely ignorant to both fighters.

If its for 12 rounds then Haglers activity will be a huge turning point because he can work harder for shorter period. If its for 15 he paces himself slightly differently - but BOTH fighters would have prepared for the WHOLE fight not miraculously having one prepared for 12 rounds and one for 15.

fantasy criteria always sucks

[GPater11093]

To all the fans of old time fighters being in better condition.....if we are to assume they are training for a real fight, can we at least assume Roy prepares for 15 rounds. Anyone saying that ROY wins in 12 but loses in 15 is being completely ignorant to both fighters.

If its for 12 rounds then Haglers activity will be a huge turning point because he can work harder for shorter period. If its for 15 he paces himself slightly differently - but BOTH fighters would have prepared for the WHOLE fight not miraculously having one prepared for 12 rounds and one for 15.

fantasy criteria always sucks

people are saying that because Hagler always comes strong from the 13-15 and that could make the difference

[JohnThomas1]

people are saying that because Hagler always comes strong from the 13-15 and that could make the difference

What fights would you say Hagler came on strong in, from rounds 13-15?

[MrMarvel]

Peak Jones would have been Hagler's toughest fight, especially if they fought at light heavyweight.

[GPater11093]

What fights would you say Hagler came on strong in, from rounds 13-15?

been a while since i watched abit of Hagler will watch some next weekend as this weekend is busy and get back to you

[JohnThomas1]

been a while since i watched abit of Hagler will watch some next weekend as this weekend is busy and get back to you

Cheers. Be sure to watch the Antuofermo fight.

[GPater11093]

Cheers. Be sure to watch the Antuofermo fight.

The first Antuofermo fight he fades TBH

i watched afew but no 15 rounders but he seemed to always been at the same level his performance didnt decrease in the later rounds. Look at Obelmajias and Mugabi he still has the strength and fitness to take them out. Thats what i mean he always stay at the same lvel of performance but RJJ seems to coast rounds

[Dave's Top Ten]

Cheers. Be sure to watch the Antuofermo fight.

Just to interject, in the Antuofermo fight, the onus was on Vito to come on strong. He did, and Hagler stayed with him. From what I remember of the fight, Hagler won the last two rounds handily, hurting Antuofermo more than once.

Also rounds 14 and 15 were two of Hagler's best rounds against Duran.

Having said that, I think the argument that Hagler comes on strong rounds 13 -15 is an empty one, as Hagler only went 15 rounds twice in a 60+ fight career.

He did show repeatedly during his career his ability to step it up as the fight progressed however, and had many second half KOs. The Mugabi fight being the most recent. The only fight he really couln't was against Leonard. Jones advocates would point out that perhaps a speedster then, could wear Hagler down to a standstill. I tend to think that he just didn't have it in the gas tank at that stage of his career after the Hearns and Mugabi wars.

[JohnThomas1]

Just to interject, in the Antuofermo fight, the onus was on Vito to come on strong. He did, and Hagler stayed with him. From what I remember of the fight, Hagler won the last two rounds handily, hurting Antuofermo more than once.


This will be up to GP to decide and decipher.

Also rounds 14 and 15 were two of Hagler's best rounds against Duran.

They should have been too, given Duran was a genuine lightweight for many years and Hagler was the epitome of the natural Middleweight. Duran was out of wind long before the last rounds but was allowed to cruise thru both his great canniness and Hagler's cautiousness.

He did show repeatedly during his career his ability to step it up as the fight progressed however, and had many second half KOs. The Mugabi fight being the most recent.

Mugabi had been past 6 rounds just once in his relatively short career. He'd actually been past 4 rounds only 4 times. It was no surprise to see a great like Hagler finish well over the top of him. Great fight that one.

Jones advocates would point out that perhaps a speedster then, could wear Hagler down to a standstill.

I don't think Jones would wear him to a standstill. I think his incredible speed and evasiveness would curb Marvin's workrate somewhat. His power and sharpness would also dispell any sort of reckless attack IMO. It would be a fight for the ages one way or another, and infinitely fascinating on many many levels.

[GPater11093]

i actually felt Hagler faded against Vito rather than Vito coming on strong but i still had Hagler winning by a good few points.

I was proabbly wrong saying Hagler came on strong in the 13-15 but i mean the second half of a fight he comes on stronger (or his performance doestn drop) my earlier post explains it better

as for the Duran fight it dosent carry much weight because agler was too cautious

[Dave's Top Ten]

i actually felt Hagler faded against Vito rather than Vito coming on strong but i still had Hagler winning by a good few points.

I was proabbly wrong saying Hagler came on strong in the 13-15 but i mean the second half of a fight he comes on stronger (or his performance doestn drop) my earlier post explains it better

as for the Duran fight it dosent carry much weight because agler was too cautious

No desire to get in a prolonged debate on this one, but yeah, Hagler never had enough 15 rounds fights to make the assumption. He was a fighter who tended either to come on, or maintain the intensity as the fight progressed, however.

A point on the Antuofermo fight, and is one that highlights the complete uselessness of the judging system of boxing, is that just because a fighter steps it up (in this case, Antuofermo) and does better than he was doing before, doesn't mean he's winning. He's just losing less badly.

[JohnThomas1]

i actually felt Hagler faded against Vito rather than Vito coming on strong but i still had Hagler winning by a good few points.

I was proabbly wrong saying Hagler came on strong in the 13-15 but i mean the second half of a fight he comes on stronger (or his performance doestn drop) my earlier post explains it better

as for the Duran fight it dosent carry much weight because agler was too cautious

I agree Hagler faded noticably. There was actually doubts about Hagler's stamina for ages, but i think it was fair. Certainly nothing amazing, but nothing terrible either. I certainly don't see it however as something i would hold up to get him home vs Jones. That's just my opinion tho. I truly don't think Jones would struggle at all with 15. He's a fantastic athlete (to say the least) and was young at 160. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him the fresher late.

My perception is that some seem to think he might tire over 12-15 or that the extra rounds give Hagler time to test his chin, but i am not so sure. After chasing Jones around for 12 i'm not sure he could spring a sudden stoppage anyways. Jones chin seemed ok at this weight and time and for ages thereafter. It's a great match with many questions - per both sides.

[GPater11093]

I agree Hagler faded noticably. There was actually doubts about Hagler's stamina for ages, but i think it was fair. Certainly nothing amazing, but nothing terrible either. I certainly don't see it however as something i would hold up to get him home vs Jones. That's just my opinion tho. I truly don't think Jones would struggle at all with 15. He's a fantastic athlete (to say the least) and was young at 160. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him the fresher late.

My perception is that some seem to think he might tire over 12-15 or that the extra rounds give Hagler time to test his chin, but i am not so sure. After chasing Jones around for 12 i'm not sure he could spring a sudden stoppage anyways. Jones chin seemed ok at this weight and time and for ages thereafter. It's a great match with many questions - per both sides.

i just think haglers controlled aggresion would take more out of Jones than what Jones could take out of Hagler.

[JohnThomas1]

i just think haglers controlled aggresion would take more out of Jones than what Jones could take out of Hagler.

And it could well. Will Hagler handle Jones sheer speed and class, and could Jones in turn still have his way during such a big step up in class. The possibilities are endless.

[GPater11093]

And it could well. Will Hagler handle Jones sheer speed and class, and could Jones in turn still have his way during such a big step up in class. The possibilities are endless.

thats what makes it such an intriguing match up

[ChrisPontius]

Jones chin seemed ok at this weight and time and for ages thereafter. It's a great match with many questions - per both sides.

I agree and i'd take this even further - Jones' chin looked excellent at 160. He never showed any problem at 168 either, and only suffered one flash knockdown at 175 until he was 35 and came back after losing 20 lbs of muscle (look at how it affected Byrd as well).

In addition to that, due to modern weigh-in rules, most of his opponents (as well as himself) weighed 10-15 lbs more than the actual limit.


Bottomline, if Hagler (or any middleweight) is counting on a lucky punch against Jones, they're in for a long, long night.

[Dave's Top Ten]

I agree and i'd take this even further - Jones' chin looked excellent at 160. He never showed any problem at 168 either, and only suffered one flash knockdown at 175 until he was 35 and came back after losing 20 lbs of muscle (look at how it affected Byrd as well).

In addition to that, due to modern weigh-in rules, most of his opponents (as well as himself) weighed 10-15 lbs more than the actual limit.


Bottomline, if Hagler (or any middleweight) is counting on a lucky punch against Jones, they're in for a long, long night.

Sure, Pontius, by I have to point out I don't think I've ever seen a Hagler gameplan that relied on landing a lucky punch. He wasn't that type of fighter.

[JohnThomas1]

Sure, Pontius, by I have to point out I don't think I've ever seen a Hagler gameplan that relied on landing a lucky punch. He wasn't that type of fighter.

He also never fought a fighter anything like Roy Jones. Jones is an altogether different animal to anything Hagler ever fought.

Of course the opposite is also true, which makes almost all points from both sides pertinent.

[JohnThomas1]

I agree and i'd take this even further - Jones' chin looked excellent at 160. He never showed any problem at 168 either, and only suffered one flash knockdown at 175 until he was 35 and came back after losing 20 lbs of muscle (look at how it affected Byrd as well).

In addition to that, due to modern weigh-in rules, most of his opponents (as well as himself) weighed 10-15 lbs more than the actual limit.


Bottomline, if Hagler (or any middleweight) is counting on a lucky punch against Jones, they're in for a long, long night.

Agreed.

[Dave's Top Ten]

He also never fought a fighter anything like Roy Jones. Jones is an altogether different animal to anything Hagler ever fought.

Of course the opposite is also true, which makes almost all points from both sides pertinent.


Right, but no matter how different Jones may be to any of Hagler's past opposition, I find it very remote that Hagler would abandon all game plan and go for a one punch KO strategy. Not sure of the point of ChrisPontius here.

Anyway, its getting late in Oz, mate. Sleep on it. You may wake up and make Hagler a clear winner. :-)

[ChrisPontius]

Right, but no matter how different Jones may be to any of Hagler's past opposition, I find it very remote that Hagler would abandon all game plan and go for a one punch KO strategy. Not sure of the point of ChrisPontius here.

Anyway, its getting late in Oz, mate. Sleep on it. You may wake up and make Hagler a clear winner. :-)

I'm not saying that that's Hagler's strategy, i'm just saying that Jones' chin will be a non-factor in this fight.


Speaking of strategy, i wouldn't be too confident in him on that regard. Look at his biggest fights... Duran, horrible strategy, overcautious and unimpressive given the weight desparity. Hearns, not really a plan here, just a brawl which obviously favored him. Leonard, again a horrible strategy to box with him for the first 4 rounds. I know that Hagler was quite a bit past his best at this point (as was Leonard), but he [Leonard] does come closest of Hagler's opponents to what Jones would do.

[JohnThomas1]

Right, but no matter how different Jones may be to any of Hagler's past opposition, I find it very remote that Hagler would abandon all game plan and go for a one punch KO strategy. Not sure of the point of ChrisPontius here.

Anyway, its getting late in Oz, mate. Sleep on it. You may wake up and make Hagler a clear winner. :-)

Oh i doubt it :lol:

It's late but on a Saturday night this is my prime. One hugely late night per week, and this is it hahaha.

Pontius is saying Hagler will have so much trouble landing vs Jones that he might get desperate and start looking for desperation shots. Jones is one of the most elusive fighters in history. Sometimes i think peeps forget just how stupidly difficult to hit he was. For ages opponents were lukky to win 30 seconds of any bout let alone a round.

[Dave's Top Ten]

I'm not saying that that's Hagler's strategy, i'm just saying that Jones' chin will be a non-factor in this fight.


Speaking of strategy, i wouldn't be too confident in him on that regard. Look at his biggest fights... Duran, horrible strategy, overcautious and unimpressive given the weight desparity. Hearns, not really a plan here, just a brawl which obviously favored him. Leonard, again a horrible strategy to box with him for the first 4 rounds. I know that Hagler was quite a bit past his best at this point (as was Leonard), but he [Leonard] does come closest of Hagler's opponents to what Jones would do.


LOL wow, your posts get worse. The post Hagler perfomances of Duran at middleweight, where he pummeled several good middles in winning and losing performances eg Robbie Simms, Barkley, to my mind justified Hagler's cautioius approach against one of the most fantastic fighter of all time. Plus in the minds of the sane, he won clearly. How bad can a strategy be when you win clearly? If the judges had got it right that night, I doubt many people would even bring the question up. To say the strategy against Hearns was not a 'strategy', well you're just not thinking there Chris. A strategy to brawl is a strategy. Nothing complicated there. The first few round against Leonard, I'll grant you, it wasn't great tactics, in fact it was damn poor. Nearly as poor as Leonard's tactics against Duran the first time. Here we go !!!!

[Dave's Top Ten]

Oh i doubt it :lol:

It's late but on a Saturday night this is my prime. One hugely late night per week, and this is it hahaha.

Pontius is saying Hagler will have so much trouble landing vs Jones that he might get desperate and start looking for desperation shots. Jones is one of the most elusive fighters in history. Sometimes i think peeps forget just how stupidly difficult to hit he was. For ages opponents were lukky to win 30 seconds of any bout let alone a round.


Well anything's possible JT, sure. But how can one say that on the one hand Hagler is too cautious, and then on the other hand say, well I can see him going for broke and winging shots? Against a speedster like SRL, Hagler pot shotted a few wild ones along the way, but for the most part his punches were very controlled. That's Hagler's game really and that's why I take exception with Chris' comments. Remember that straight left hand that got Leonard in trouble in the 9th? No winging shots there my friend. And the compact right uppercut that had Sugar Ray clinging on in the 5th. No wild ones there, no sir !!!

[ChrisPontius]

LOL wow, your posts get worse. The post Hagler perfomances of Duran at middleweight, where he pummeled several good middles in winning and losing performances eg Robbie Simms, Barkley, to my mind justified Hagler's cautioius approach against one of the most fantastic fighter of all time. Plus in the minds of the sane, he won clearly. How bad can a strategy be when you win clearly? If the judges had got it right that night, I doubt many people would even bring the question up.


Nobody here brought up the judges of the Duran-Hagler fight but you. And no one cares about them. It's about the fact that on one hand you have Marvin Hagler, the indestructible, powerful, natural middleweight, and on the other hand you have Duran who was past his best, losing to the likes of Laing, Benetiz and Sims. Of course you expect Hagler to blow him out, but instead it was a careful victory that was decided only when the rounds went to double digits. And that is of course not to mention what Hearns did to Duran just months later.


How good was Hagler's strategy in the Duran fight? Do you feel there was more potential than what he delivered? Because i sure did. You say "he won, so it was a good strategy". Well, i think the victory was more despite the chosen strategy than because of it.



To say the strategy against Hearns was not a 'strategy', well you're just not thinking there Chris. A strategy to brawl is a strategy. Nothing complicated there.


Like you say: nothing complicated here. Which is why it went well for Hagler, strategy-wise. Jones is a different puzzle to solve.



The first few round against Leonard, I'll grant you, it wasn't great tactics, in fact it was damn poor. Nearly as poor as Leonard's tactics against Duran
the first time. Here we go !!!!

I'm glad you admit that much. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Well anything's possible JT, sure. But how can one say that on the one hand Hagler is too cautious, and then on the other hand say, well I can see him going for broke and winging shots? Against a speedster like SRL, Hagler pot shotted a few wild ones along the way, but for the most part his punches were very controlled. That's Hagler's game really and that's why I take exception with Chris' comments. Remember that straight left hand that got Leonard in trouble in the 9th? No winging shots there my friend. And the compact right uppercut that had Sugar Ray clinging on in the 5th. No wild ones there, no sir !!!

I think the simple point here is that it's possible Jones could build up a good lead. Leonard - Hagler was reasonably close and Hagler was getting shots thru at various times. This may not be the case against Jones, he is far harder to hit than Leonard at 160. If Hagler clearly slips behind on points and the fight is in it's latter stages he is just going to concede defeat and not up the ante in the hope of getting to Jones?