Is Ernesto Marcel a better fighter than Pac, MAB, JMM and EM?

[sweet_scientist]

Well, is he?

I think the answer is yes.

At least better as a featherweight, in any case.

[Flea Man]

H2H he'd give them all sorts of trouble.....think his win over Arguello was a wee bit dodgy, but I wouldn't rank him above any of these in my ATG list.

[sweet_scientist]

H2H he'd give them all sorts of trouble.....think his win over Arguello was a wee bit dodgy, but I wouldn't rank him above any of these in my ATG list.

What was your score for the Arguello fight Flea? I had Ernesto taking it 146-141. A few rounds in there could have gone the other way, but I'd hardly call the decision 'a bit dodgy' myself. Thought Ernesto well and truly earned it.

It might be hard to rank Marcel above Pac, EM, JMM and MAB because of their exploits at other weight classes, but at 126, I think I'd take Marcel to beat them all.

[WhataRock]

I wouldnt hesitate to pic Marcel over a featherweight Pac...I havent seen enough of him to say he beats the others at their best at feather but I reckon is exactly the kind of fighters that would trouble Morales and be a stylistic problem for the skillset of JMM..He is certainly could be considered on par with them taking into account the level of ability he showed in his own era..He has a couple of very good names on his resume at the weight, especially if you count the Shibata fight in his favour. Which I have never seen but Ive never heard a report stating he didnt take that fight.

[sweet_scientist]

The Shibata fight was an out and out hold up. I had Marcel taking it by 4 points and that's not counting some of the one sided rounds in the last third of the fight that could have been counted 10-8's in Marcel's favour.

Whilst we're talking Marcel, disregard the MD decision against Antonio Gomez, Marcel all but shut him out. Had Marcel winning that fight by 10 points. That was quite simply one of the best boxing masterclasses I have ever seen. A performance that would make anyone think long and hard before picking the likes of JMM or Morales to defeat him.

Those that have only seen the Arguello and Duran fights are doing themselves a disservice. My esteem for him has increased greatly since seeing some of his more prime (weight and level) performances.

[WhataRock]

Ill have to track a copy down..is the rematch just as good?

I have seen a few Gomez fights and he is no mug ..with a fair few very solid wins himself including Cervantes...He is the man who retired Saijo interestingly sweet.

Correct me if Im wrong..I probably am..but I recall a bit of a Tapia-esque kind of ability in the fights I have seen of Marcel, which isnt much outside of highlights and its been probably over a year since Ive seen him.

[Flea Man]

What was your score for the Arguello fight Flea? I had Ernesto taking it 146-141. A few rounds in there could have gone the other way, but I'd hardly call the decision 'a bit dodgy' myself. Thought Ernesto well and truly earned it.

It might be hard to rank Marcel above Pac, EM, JMM and MAB because of their exploits at other weight classes, but at 126, I think I'd take Marcel to beat them all.

I think I had it slightly closer....probably due to my bias for Alexis though :good

[sweet_scientist]

Ill have to track a copy down..is the rematch just as good?

I haven't seen it mate, but I think whatever was left of his prime got beaten out of him in the first Marcel fight. That was a horrible beatdown.

I have seen a few Gomez fights and he is no mug ..with a fair few very solid wins himself including Cervantes...He is the man who retired Saijo interestingly sweet.The man is skilled and tough as nails, no doubt, but after seeing Marcel escape with a MD after the massacre that was their first fight, I'll take the decisions Gomez got in his home town against DeJesus and Cervantes with a grain of salt.

Correct me if Im wrong..I probably am..but I recall a bit of a Tapia-esque kind of ability in the fights I have seen of Marcel, which isnt much outside of highlights and its been probably over a year since Ive seen him.Hmm, well he does a lot of that in and out punching and getting out of range whilst having his hands down stuff, like Tapia did, but prime Marcel is more a mixture between Ismael Laguna and Eusebio Pedroza for mine.

Fuck those Panamanians and their stamina.... scary stuff.

[sweet_scientist]

I think I had it slightly closer....probably due to my bias for Alexis though :good

So long as you have it close mate there's not much chance of bias :good

[Flea Man]

So long as you have it close mate there's not much chance of bias :good

I'll have to dig my old card out....it may have been similar to yours Sweet Scientist, but I never score even rounds so god knows actually, I definitely had Marcel winning, but I find it hard not to marvel at everything Arguello does and therefore it may appear that he has done more in a round! I sometimes have to remind myself I'm watchin two fighters when I watch an Arguello fight :lol:

[natonic]

Those that have only seen the Arguello and Duran fights are doing themselves a disservice. My esteem for him has increased greatly since seeing some of his more prime (weight and level) performances.

Unfortunately, that's where I stand right now. But I'm still very impressed having seen that. I think Marcel would just be too slick for PAC and EM. Pac has refined his game since moving up but let's keep in mind that his opponents have lacked good quickness. I think he'd outhustle JMM. If Barrera could pick his spots and get the fight inside I'd maybe give him a shot against Marcel.

[natonic]

p.s. I think I had Marcel by 3 points over Arguello. I think with that experience that Arguello could have taken a rematch, but nonetheless, great performance by Marcel. The stoppage against Duran was ludicrous. I've seen that same tippy toe dandy referee stop another fight prematurely like that but can't quite place the fight right now.

[Mantequilla]

Yes, imo.

Marcel was a tremendous fighter.He'd have a chance against almost any featherweight and i'd make him no less than even money with all that have came after him.Id di think the Arguello fight could have gone either way however.marcel scored a lot of nice lead rights but Arguello came on like a freight train and soundly outworked him over the second half.

The guy he won the title from, Gomez was a helluva fighter as well, more talented than JMM, MAB etc as well imo.Another guy who's dedication didn't match his skills.he had already started to lose non-title fights and looked sluggish as hell against Marcel; compared to the saijo fight.Some of that oculd be attributed to not liking to lead perhaps, and marcel was just better anyway.still i thought he did himself a disservice in that fight.

that aside, i agree with sweet that it was one of the great performances , at least comparable to something like Pac vs Mab.

[Mantequilla]

I haven't seen it mate, but I think whatever was left of his prime got beaten out of him in the first Marcel fight. That was a horrible beatdown.

The man is skilled and tough as nails, no doubt, but after seeing Marcel escape with a MD after the massacre that was their first fight, I'll take the decisions Gomez got in his home town against DeJesus and Cervantes with a grain of salt.

Hmm, well he does a lot of that in and out punching and getting out of range whilst having his hands down stuff, like Tapia did, but prime Marcel is more a mixture between Ismael Laguna and Eusebio Pedroza for mine.

Fuck those Panamanians and their stamina.... scary stuff.


I could see Gomez beating Dejesus due to the styles involved and Esteban not being a physical fighter at all, but it is massively difficult to imagine a much smaller natural featherweight getting the better of Cervantes, who must have looked absolutely huge next to him.

[sweet_scientist]

I could see Gomez beating Dejesus due to the styles involved and Esteban not being a physical fighter at all, but it is massively difficult to imagine a much smaller natural featherweight getting the better of Cervantes, who must have looked absolutely huge next to him.

Perhaps, but all the same I'd like to hear reports on how the fights played out.

That one judge had Marcel-Gomez even and another had it for Marcel by a mere 4 points, I think I reserve a right to be sceptical. Likewise I'll reserve judgement on the outcome of the first Miguel Canto-Betulio Gonzalez fight. After seeing Canto school him in the rematch, it's a little hard to envision Betulio getting the win there. Not discounting it totally, but just reserving judgement till I learn some more about it.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, imo.

Marcel was a tremendous fighter.He'd have a chance against almost any featherweight and i'd make him no less than even money with all that have came after him.

Just interested mate, in terms of ranking Marcel, do you think he has an argument of being placed above the likes of Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson and Vicente Saldivar (who along with Marcel probably comprise the 4 best feathers in the last half century)?

[My2Sense]

Those that have only seen the Arguello and Duran fights are doing themselves a disservice. My esteem for him has increased greatly since seeing some of his more prime (weight and level) performances.

I agree, I thought he looked like he might be fading when he fought Arguello, though he still managed to pull out the win. At the same time though, I felt Arguello improved very much after that fight, and probably because of it.

I thought he acquitted himself very well against Duran, despite losing in the end. He showed both slick boxing skills and the ruggedness and punching ability to stay with Duran on the inside. That stoppage was kinda strange from what I remember.

Still, I think with him having retired so relatively soon and suddenly, it's hard to fully assess him or rank him compared to other featherweights. Stylistically, he could be a problem for a lot of featherweights, but I don't know who exactly I would say he was better than.

[Mantequilla]

Just interested mate, in terms of ranking Marcel, do you think he has an argument of being placed above the likes of Salvador Sanchez, Azumah Nelson and Vicente Saldivar (who along with Marcel probably comprise the 4 best feathers in the last half century)?

Sure, i don't see why not.Especially if you think he would beat them.I'd put Pedroza, Arguello, Famechon, Ramos, Winstone and maybe a few others in there too.I can see them all swapping wins and losses without any single one emerging as a clear leader really.

[Sweet Pea]

Pedroza is my favorite of the bunch, and I definitely believe he belongs in that group. I'd say he was very capable of beating any of the others, though a guy like Saldivar I'd favor over him more often than not.

[Mantequilla]

Pedroza's reputation seems to suffer a bit at times from his close fights towards the end of his reign, when he was starting to lose a notch physically and maybe become a bit complacent as a long-running campion.


It's interesting how most of the best Panamanian fighters like Marcel, Pedroza, LAguna and zapata all have a broadly similar style of fighting.Alal great technical fighters.

[Sweet Pea]

Pedroza's reputation seems to suffer a bit at times from his close fights towards the end of his reign, when he was starting to lose a notch physically and maybe become a bit complacent as a long-running campion.


It's interesting how most of the best Panamanian fighters like Marcel, Pedroza, LAguna and zapata all have a broadly similar style of fighting.Alal great technical fighters.

Very slick stylists. Duran, while a much more pressure oriented banger than the others, had a lot of that in him as well.

[teeto]

Pedroza is my favorite of the bunch, and I definitely believe he belongs in that group. I'd say he was very capable of beating any of the others, though a guy like Saldivar I'd favor over him more often than not.
I agree with this, Saldivar is a guy i may pick most times because i think on top of the tangiles he seems to be a winner of the highest order. But Pedroza to me in terms of greatness should be very high. Thats a great champion right there, wether it was lineal or not, he came back after early setbacks and then to do what he did was great.

[scartissue]

Perhaps, but all the same I'd like to hear reports on how the fights played out.

That one judge had Marcel-Gomez even and another had it for Marcel by a mere 4 points, I think I reserve a right to be sceptical. Likewise I'll reserve judgement on the outcome of the first Miguel Canto-Betulio Gonzalez fight. After seeing Canto school him in the rematch, it's a little hard to envision Betulio getting the win there. Not discounting it totally, but just reserving judgement till I learn some more about it.

Sweet, you may be interested in a little tidbit. The dissenting judge who scored the Gomez-Marcel fight even was a Venezuelan judge named Rafael Curtaya. In the 2nd and 3rd Canto-Gonzalez fights, Canto won only split decisions. The dissenting judge in both those fights was...Rafael Curtaya. See a pattern there? Incidentally, I always heard the 1st Gonzalez -Canto fight was a fair decision. And again drawn along party lines. The judge who scored that fight even was Mexican. Too funny.

Scartissue

[Mantequilla]

Betulio got so many chances it was ridiculous.some of those vnezuelan fighters lead charmed lives.I thought he got a gift against Espadas as well, though that was a hard fight.

Have you ever heard anything about Gomez vs Dejesus or Cervantes, scar?.

[sweet_scientist]

Pedroza is my favorite of the bunch, and I definitely believe he belongs in that group. I'd say he was very capable of beating any of the others, though a guy like Saldivar I'd favor over him more often than not.

I think Perdoza would struggle against Azumah Nelson's physicality too, but he'd fair better against Marcel and Sanchez. I still think Marcel was a little sharper though. The one advantage Pedroza has over Marcel is that he's probably a better body puncher, but I think their fight would be conducted more as a boxing match than an inside war, and Marcel would be getting the best of most of the exchanges.

[sweet_scientist]

Sweet, you may be interested in a little tidbit. The dissenting judge who scored the Gomez-Marcel fight even was a Venezuelan judge named Rafael Curtaya. In the 2nd and 3rd Canto-Gonzalez fights, Canto won only split decisions. The dissenting judge in both those fights was...Rafael Curtaya. See a pattern there? Incidentally, I always heard the 1st Gonzalez -Canto fight was a fair decision. And again drawn along party lines. The judge who scored that fight even was Mexican. Too funny.

Scartissue

Nice pick up Scar. :good

[sweet_scientist]

Betulio got so many chances it was ridiculous.some of those vnezuelan fighters lead charmed lives.I thought he got a gift against Espadas as well, though that was a hard fight.


I'm a fan of Betulio, but I agree that Espadas beat him. Only by a point on my card, but like I said, I'm a fan.

Thought Betulio got well and truly beaten in the third Oguma fight as well, had him losing that one by 5 points, but somehow it was called a draw - and in Japan too.

Balancing that out a little though, I think he has an argument for taking the second Oguma fight and the Masao Ohba fight. Had Betulio by a point in each of those encounters.

[scartissue]

Betulio got so many chances it was ridiculous.some of those vnezuelan fighters lead charmed lives.I thought he got a gift against Espadas as well, though that was a hard fight.

Have you ever heard anything about Gomez vs Dejesus or Cervantes, scar?.

I have not, and that's not to say I haven't been digging. It must've been too obscure in their young careers at the time. If I find somthing I'll post it, dude. Incidentally, I know what you mean about the Venezuelans. How many opportunities did Lionel Hernandez get? I liked Betulio, but have to admit he was a favored son.

Scartissue

[Mantequilla]

Gonzalez is hard not to like.He's the kind of no-bullshit aggresive technician i always enjoy watching.He always came to fight that's for sure.

I wouldn't say the fight with Espadas would qualify as a true robbery, sweet.Just a debatable close one.I think i had it for Espadas by 2 or 3 points.

[sweet_scientist]

Gonzalez is hard not to like.He's the kind of no-bullshit aggresive technician i always enjoy watching.He always came to fight that's for sure.

I wouldn't say the fight with Espadas would qualify as a true robbery, sweet.Just a debatable close one.I think i had it for Espadas by 2 or 3 points.

Yeah I have a lot of time for Betulio. Love watching his fights in fact. Started his career as quite a good boxer/counter puncher, but as he went on and lost some spring in his step, he became more of an aggressive technician as you say. He still managed to hang in there with a lot of good fighters past his prime because of how tough he was. Pleasure to watch. The Espadas fight, which you recommended I see a little while a go was a beauty. Just watched it the other night.

[sweet_scientist]

I agree, I thought he looked like he might be fading when he fought Arguello, though he still managed to pull out the win. At the same time though, I felt Arguello improved very much after that fight, and probably because of it.

I thought he acquitted himself very well against Duran, despite losing in the end. He showed both slick boxing skills and the ruggedness and punching ability to stay with Duran on the inside. That stoppage was kinda strange from what I remember.

Still, I think with him having retired so relatively soon and suddenly, it's hard to fully assess him or rank him compared to other featherweights. Stylistically, he could be a problem for a lot of featherweights, but I don't know who exactly I would say he was better than.

Yeah his prime wasn't that long... I suppose those that can look at Sal Sanchez's body of work and rank him amongst the best should be able to do the same with Ernesto.

[Flea Man]

Yeah his prime wasn't that long... I suppose those that can look at Sal Sanchez's body of work and rank him amongst the best should be able to do the same with Ernesto.

I actually think the stoppage against Duran was unjust. Sure he'd taken a lot of shots going into the final rounds, but didn't appear to be in huge trouble when the fight was stopped....the ref just broke it up and waved it off.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Nice to see Marcel`s name get a mention, he is one of my favourites and I love watching this guy, he had such a smooth and relaxed fighting style in the ring. Ernesto is the only Panamanian fighter to retire as an undefeated champ, and he did in style as well by clearly beating a young, up and coming Alexis Arguello in his last fight.

He had a beautiful style that combined superb defensive and offensive skills, and he also had excellent balance and a very fluid slip and countering ability. He employed a lot of lateral movement as well and was always on the move, he never stayed too long in the same spot. Flyweight Fidel Bassa is the only other fighter that I`ve seen who managed to master that style, unfortunately his career was cut short due to a detached retina and he had a terrible chin.

A lot of people don`t know this but he really started as a basketball player, and was supposed to make the Panamanian National team, but his coach cut him because according to the coach he was too small in height for basketball. So after that, to represent Panama in some kind of sport, he took boxing. He did pretty good for a basketball player if I may say so. And since it has been brought up I`ll answer those folks who inquired as to why his bout with Draun was stopped and why he chose to quit the ring after the Arguello fight.

In the Duran fight apparently referee Isaac Herrera stopped the bout because accodring to him Marcel had barely thrown a punch the entire round and was doing nothing but backtracking, thus Herrera ruled Duran the winner by TKO due to Ernesto`s inactivity with less than ten seconds left in the final round. As for the retirement after the Arguello fight Marcel had already made up his mind before the bout that it would be his last, and the reason for his retirement according to him was that he wasn`t making enough money from fighting and wanted to devote his time to other endeavours.

He also said that he was tired of the rigorous training and dedication required to stay on top and even though he knew he could have kept on fighting with success for several more years, his heart wasn`t in it anymore. As for how Ernesto would have fared against today`s fab four I`d have made him a heavy favourite over Morales and Pacquiao, and certainly would have pegged him to beat MAB and JMM as well, although these two would give him more problems due to styles and the fights would be clsoer on the cards as a result.

[WhataRock]

Top post as usual raging..very interesting stuff.

[sweet_scientist]

Nice to see Marcel`s name get a mention, he is one of my favourites and I love watching this guy, he had such a smooth and relaxed fighting style in the ring. Ernesto is the only Panamanian fighter to retire as an undefeated champ, and he did in style as well by clearly beating a young, up and coming Alexis Arguello in his last fight.

He had a beautiful style that combined superb defensive and offensive skills, and he also had excellent balance and a very fluid slip and countering ability. He employed a lot of lateral movement as well and was always on the move, he never stayed too long in the same spot. Flyweight Fidel Bassa is the only other fighter that I`ve seen who managed to master that style, unfortunately his career was cut short due to a detached retina and he had a terrible chin.

A lot of people don`t know this but he really started as a basketball player, and was supposed to make the Panamanian National team, but his coach cut him because according to the coach he was too small in height for basketball. So after that, to represent Panama in some kind of sport, he took boxing. He did pretty good for a basketball player if I may say so. And since it has been brought up I`ll answer those folks who inquired as to why his bout with Draun was stopped and why he chose to quit the ring after the Arguello fight.

In the Duran fight apparently referee Isaac Herrera stopped the bout because accodring to him Marcel had barely thrown a punch the entire round and was doing nothing but backtracking, thus Herrera ruled Duran the winner by TKO due to Ernesto`s inactivity with less than ten seconds left in the final round. As for the retirement after the Arguello fight Marcel had already made up his mind before the bout that it would be his last, and the reason for his retirement according to him was that he wasn`t making enough money from fighting and wanted to devote his time to other endeavours.

He also said that he was tired of the rigorous training and dedication required to stay on top and even though he knew he could have kept on fighting with success for several more years, his heart wasn`t in it anymore. As for how Ernesto would have fared against today`s fab four I`d have made him a heavy favourite over Morales and Pacquiao, and certainly would have pegged him to beat MAB and JMM as well, although these two would give him more problems due to styles and the fights would be clsoer on the cards as a result.

Top stuff. This thread was inspired by watching the Marcel fights you just sent me, so thanks for those mate :good

[Raging B(_)LL]

Top post as usual raging..very interesting stuff.


Thanks.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Top stuff. This thread was inspired by watching the Marcel fights you just sent me, so thanks for those mate :good


Glad to hear your enjoying the fights mate. Marcel sure is a fun guy to watch ply his craft, in fact as Mantequilla pointed out most of the top Panamanian boxers throughout history have had a very pleasant style of boxing to watch, and Ernesto is right at the top of that list for me as far as the stylists are concerned.

[WhataRock]

Whilst we are on the topic how does a fight between Pedroza and Marcel play out?

[Flea Man]

I think Pedroza would take a very close decision, he'd foul and rough Marcel up and stunt his workrate.

Raging, great post my friend :good

[scartissue]

My reply was, "I think Marcel takes the decision, but just barely". So I think we're on the same page that a fight between Marcel and Pedroza is a squeaker.

Scartissue

[sweet_scientist]

In the Duran fight apparently referee Isaac Herrera stopped the bout because accodring to him Marcel had barely thrown a punch the entire round and was doing nothing but backtracking, thus Herrera ruled Duran the winner by TKO due to Ernesto`s inactivity with less than ten seconds left in the final round.

Watched Duran-Marcel again just now to refresh my memory on it...

I find it totally astonishing that Marcel literally didn't throw a punch in the last round. I don't think he was in any kind of distress, and I actually had him winning the 9th round, so I thought he would have gone into the last round looking to carry that momentum.

The only thing that seems semi feasible to me is that Marcel thought he was winning the fight, and only needed to stay on his feet to get the decision (I had Duran up by a point at the time of the stoppage, but fighters can delude themselves that they are winning fights when they aren't, perhaps Marcel was in such a delusion). But then, if that was the case, why didn't he protest the ref's decision to stop the fight?

Utterly bizarre. Did he just give up? I mean, he was still bouncing around, he could have thrown punches no worries. But he didn't throw a single punch in the 10th. Weird.... Was it an implicit no mas? I'm at a loss....