Big Fight Chokers.

[young griffo]

Which fighters never seemed to be able to pull out a win in the big fights?

I'm looking for guys who looked great against less than stellar opposition but froze whenever thay faced a class fighter or somehow fell short in important fights.

Andrew Golota is a name who immediately springs to mind for me.He either got himself in a position to win but got jittery and found a way to lose (Bowe and Michael Grant) or was like a rabbit in the headlights and got blown away (Lewis,Brewster).

Gerry Cooney was another who was awesome against washed up fighters and other assorted punching bags but give him a live body and a big occasion and he'd always come up short.Duane Bobick likewise.

Howard Davis Jnr acquitted himself well in a couple of big fights but never managed to get the win that would have elevated his standing from that of a talented amateur.

Any others spring to mind?

[Holmes' Jab]

Frank Bruno (despite putting on a great losing display against Lewis). :yep

[young griffo]

Frank Bruno.
Good one,but he did manage to get that one big win against Oliver McCall even though he nearly managed to lose that one as well.
Against a better fighter he would have.

[Nemesis]

Bomber Graham
Johnny Nelson (at first)
Mark Breland to an extent

[TBooze]

Yaqui Lopez

Billy Schwer

Herol Graham

[BoppaZoo]

Zab Judah
End of Story.

[Duodenum]

Ruben Castillo, Yaqui Lopez, Jerry "The Bull" Martin, Vonzell Johnson, Eddie Davis, Bad Bennie Briscoe.

[Taffyy]

ZAB JUDAH........

[mcvey]

Yaqui Lopez

Billy Schwer

Herol Graham
Alvaro Lopez came up short in fights,during a very strong era for LH,sbut he didnt choke he gave Saad Muhammad life and death twice ,went 15 with Conteh,beat Burnett 2 out of 3,beat Mike Quarry ,and gave Galindez 2 hard fights ,Yaqui wasnt quite good enough at the top level,but he allways gave his best.I remember him as a very gutsy fighter definitely not a "choker". The description more aptly fits guys like the early Johnny Nelson,Bruce Seldon ,Akinwande etc.

[TBooze]

Alvaro Lopez came up short in fights,during a very strong era for LH,sbut he didnt choke he gave Saad Muhammad life and death twice ,went 15 with Conteh,beat Burnett 2 out of 3,beat Mike Quarry ,and gave Galindez 2 hard fights ,Yaqui wasnt quite good enough at the top level,but he allways gave his best.I remember him as a very gutsy fighter definitely not a "choker". The description more aptly fits guys like the early Johnny Nelson,Bruce Seldon ,Akinwande etc.

Lopez had Muhammad in all sorts of trouble and could not get the job done, like you said twice... If that is not choking, what is?

[DamonD]

I guess you could say Razor Ruddock. While he did have wins of note, against the best guys on his record he lost. Tyson twice, Lewis, Morrison, and no title belts.

David Tua is dangerously borderline. While he has beaten good opponents, he failed in his two biggest fights - title shots against Lewis and Byrd.

Guys like Seldon, Akinwande, Bruno, Briggs etc don't count in my book...they did manage to win and/or hold onto title belts.

[Titan1]

Tony Tucker and Bernard Taylor, though both didn't really fight the comp they should have coming up.

[Jack Dempsey]

Young Stribling never seemed to be able to win his title shots, yet beat the same guys in non title matches

[AREA 53]

I suppose Jerry Quarry ******ts a mention, had some good wins of course, but even if you take away the losses to Ali (x2) and Frazier (x2) Jerry still lost to Ellis, Chavalo and Norton (when admittedly when much Faded)

[Curtis Lowe]

Alvaro Lopez came up short in fights,during a very strong era for LH,sbut he didnt choke he gave Saad Muhammad life and death twice ,went 15 with Conteh,beat Burnett 2 out of 3,beat Mike Quarry ,and gave Galindez 2 hard fights ,Yaqui wasnt quite good enough at the top level,but he allways gave his best.I remember him as a very gutsy fighter definitely not a "choker". The description more aptly fits guys like the early Johnny Nelson,Bruce Seldon ,Akinwande etc.

Very well put. I watched Lopez fight his heart several times and greatly admire the man.

[sweet_scientist]

I'm thinking Juan Laporte, but I don't really know if choker is the right label. He kept on coming up against ATGs and kept fallign short. I think its fair to say that he never had the talent to beat the ATG's he lost to, so it's not really a case of a choker (which implies someone who has the ability to win, but for some reason - usually mental - fails to) so much as a guy who is limited.

[Mantequilla]

I think Laporte choked against Gomez at least.

He must have thrown about 5 punches a round in that fight.

[salsanchezfan]

The guy that comes to mind for me had the worst case of "freezing" I've ever seen; Tyrone Jackson, a junior lightweight contender from the 80's. He built a stellar record of something like 25-0, maybe 28-0 when he was faced with some south Korean titlist, and the guy literally just stood along the ropes and got hammered; you could actually see the wheels grind to a halt in his head, and he was TKO'd in the sixth.

Then he fought Tony Lopez for the IBF title and again just stood there, letting Lopez whack away with impunity. Lopez stopped him in the eighth.

His trainers even admitted that he simply froze in big fights. Even they offered no excuses. I've never seen so obvious an example as that.


I heartily disagree with the Yaqui Lopez choice and the Mark Breland choice, though.

[sweet_scientist]

I think Laporte choked against Gomez at least.

He must have thrown about 5 punches a round in that fight.

True, that one was up for grabs if he forced the issue, but he was reluctant to do it.

[Bill1234]

Earnie Shavers. He'd give a good fight, but he'd always come up short.

[doublesuited]

Angel Manfredy for sure!

You might as well hand him the Dubya-Pretzel Award.

[Doc McCoy]

I think Laporte choked against Gomez at least.

He must have thrown about 5 punches a round in that fight.

I disagree. I think Juan tasted Gomez' power early and was surprised and hurt enough in the first 3 rounds to be wary of mixing it up.
Wilfredo then seized the intiiative and pressured Juan for the rest of the bout taking his legs away from him with a vicious body assault in the middle rounds.
LaPorte may have thought he would catch Gomez in the late rounds but found he had nothing left, due in no small part to the pounding he took from Wilfredo.

Great call on Tyrone Jackson salsanchezfan. Ferdie Pacheco made the observation repeatedly throughout that bout against Lopez that Jackson just could not or would not get off. A frustrating one to watch for sure.

[rvk2007]

John "The beast" Mugabi

[JohnThomas1]

Earnie Shavers. He'd give a good fight, but he'd always come up short.

This wasn't choking tho, it was simply not being good enough. Big difference.

[JohnThomas1]

I disagree. I think Juan tasted Gomez' power early and was surprised and hurt enough in the first 3 rounds to be wary of mixing it up.
Wilfredo then seized the intiiative and pressured Juan for the rest of the bout taking his legs away from him with a vicious body assault in the middle rounds.
LaPorte may have thought he would catch Gomez in the late rounds but found he had nothing left, due in no small part to the pounding he took from Wilfredo.

Great call on Tyrone Jackson salsanchezfan. Ferdie Pacheco made the observation repeatedly throughout that bout against Lopez that Jackson just could not or would not get off. A frustrating one to watch for sure.

I'll go with the choke myself, Juan put up a pitiful effort. This fight was really built up with their nationality and all that and LaPorte just froze. He had a good punch, i would have liked to have seen him rise to Gomez early and go right back at him but it was not to be. Juan had the tools to make this fight interesting.

[Black Eyes To You]

Moorer
Tua
James Thunder
Wlad

[Duodenum]

After Yaqui Lopez prevailed in the classic eighth round of their rematch, it looked like somebody was finally going to prevail over Matt. Yaqui had him in difficulty early in that round, then Saad pinned him on the ropes with a characteristic come-from-behind surge which had all the earmarks of a typical fight winning rally for him. Suddenly, Lopez broke that pattern as he drove Matt off of him with fire in his eyes. (It's one of the most enraged expressions of determined fury I've ever seen on a boxer's face. It looked like his eyeballs were ready to explode.) After that, nothing.

Gil Clancy sounded like he was rooting for Yaqui, saying to Tim Ryan over and over, "If he can just come on a little bit, Saad Muhammad's ready to go!" But neither fighter was displaying any energy at all. It was as if they'd both shot their bolt in round eight, and had nothing left, but Matt had taken the bigger beating (as usual).

When Lopez was asked after the match what had happened following the eighth round, he simply said, "I got tired." Then it was Saad Muhammad's turn to be interviewed. When he was told that Yaqui said he lost because he got tired, Matt looked incredulous as he exclaimed, "Well I was tired too!" That's the difference between an ATG champion and a perennial contender. Saad would suck it up, and push himself beyond what his limits were thought to be. He was far more battered than his challenger was (as usual), but he simply wanted it more, and that's why he's deservedly in the IBHOF. Ultimately, yeah, I think Yaqui did choke, as much as I liked him, and wanted him to win. (Unless you wish to make the case that choking is different from not wanting it badly enough. Stribling certainly overtrained for his title shots, which might encapsulate a more precise definition of choking.)

In the final analysis, Yaqui was a noble challenger who simply lacked that extra something which separates the very good from the truly great.

[Bummy Davis]

Duane Bobick, Andrew Golota

[ibarfly]

jameel mccline, easily!!

[He Hate Me]

zab

[GazOC]

This wasn't choking tho, it was simply not being good enough. Big difference.

:good

I wouldn't call Hearns a 'choker' but the bottom line is he lost the two biggest fights of his career.:huh

[JohnThomas1]

:good

I wouldn't call Hearns a 'choker' but the bottom line is he lost the two biggest fights of his career.:huh

Which is only said because he lost them. The facts are if he lost to Duran that too would be in your category, same with Benitez. You'd hear more about the Leonard rematch too if Tommy lost. We'd hear all about how he waited 7 years then still couldn't do it etc. It's a very narrow view. The biggest fights of Tommy's are Cuevas, Leonard, Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Leonard II and Hill. He won 5. Unbeknownst to many he was the minor underdog vs Benitez and Benitez was being spoke of as the man to possibly dethrone Hagler, and many thought he could beat Leonard at 154, a weight many thought he had grown into and was his finest.

Hearns gets a bit ripped off historically actually. His wins over any and all, Cuevas, Benitez, Duran and Leonard II are commonly downplayed and fobbed off. Cuevas, a feared assassin at the time is now not much chop (even tho Hearns destroyed him) Benitez is now pushed back to minor status, Duran was soft or needed a poo or whatever other excuses his fans can clutch at on the day, Leonard was old etc.

The fact is that Hearns was anything but a choker and Marvin and Ray were just too good on the day.Big shame that, losing to a guy many see as the second greatest 147 of all time and a guy proclaimed by all and sundrey to be top 2 160 ever.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a pet topic (hate) this one.

:good

[salsanchezfan]

Which is only said because he lost them. The facts are if he lost to Duran that too would be in your category, same with Benitez. You'd hear more about the Leonard rematch too if Tommy lost. We'd hear all about how he waited 7 years then still couldn't do it etc. It's a very narrow view. The biggest fights of Tommy's are Cuevas, Leonard, Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Leonard II and Hill. He won 5. Unbeknownst to many he was the minor underdog vs Benitez and Benitez was being spoke of as the man to possibly dethrone Hagler, and many thought he could beat Leonard at 154, a weight many thought he had grown into and was his finest.

Hearns gets a bit ripped off historically actually. His wins over any and all, Cuevas, Benitez, Duran and Leonard II are commonly downplayed and fobbed off. Cuevas, a feared assassin at the time is now not much chop (even tho Hearns destroyed him) Benitez is now pushed back to minor status, Duran was soft or needed a poo or whatever other excuses his fans can clutch at on the day, Leonard was old etc.

The fact is that Hearns was anything but a choker and Marvin and Ray were just too good on the day.Big shame that, losing to a guy many see as the second greatest 147 of all time and a guy proclaimed by all and sundrey to be top 2 160 ever.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a pet topic (hate) this one.

:good




................I'd just like to say I agree with Johnthomas' avatar.

I mean...........I agree with John. Yes, that's right.


No seriously, I do agree. Just because he lost to two fighters who were frankly probably just a hair better and all-time greats themselves doesn't mean the reason for Hearns' losses was a choke job. He acquitted himself very well in both fights and fought his heart out in both of them. He just lost, that's all. It happens.


The Duane Bobick pick earlier was a terrific one.

[JohnThomas1]

................I'd just like to say I agree with Johnthomas' avatar.

I mean...........I agree with John. Yes, that's right.


No seriously, I do agree. Just because he lost to two fighters who were frankly probably just a hair better and all-time greats themselves doesn't mean the reason for Hearns' losses was a choke job. He acquitted himself very well in both fights and fought his heart out in both of them. He just lost, that's all. It happens.


The Duane Bobick pick earlier was a terrific one.

Thanks Sal, your opinon is much respected.

Oh and get ready for lots lots more of her in the coming weeks.

:smoke

[GazOC]

Which is only said because he lost them. The facts are if he lost to Duran that too would be in your category, same with Benitez. You'd hear more about the Leonard rematch too if Tommy lost. We'd hear all about how he waited 7 years then still couldn't do it etc. It's a very narrow view. The biggest fights of Tommy's are Cuevas, Leonard, Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Leonard II and Hill. He won 5. Unbeknownst to many he was the minor underdog vs Benitez and Benitez was being spoke of as the man to possibly dethrone Hagler, and many thought he could beat Leonard at 154, a weight many thought he had grown into and was his finest.

Hearns gets a bit ripped off historically actually. His wins over any and all, Cuevas, Benitez, Duran and Leonard II are commonly downplayed and fobbed off. Cuevas, a feared assassin at the time is now not much chop (even tho Hearns destroyed him) Benitez is now pushed back to minor status, Duran was soft or needed a poo or whatever other excuses his fans can clutch at on the day, Leonard was old etc.

The fact is that Hearns was anything but a choker and Marvin and Ray were just too good on the day.Big shame that, losing to a guy many see as the second greatest 147 of all time and a guy proclaimed by all and sundrey to be top 2 160 ever.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a pet topic (hate) this one.

:good

Thats cool mate! I've got a 'thing' about crap that goes around about Leonard having ducked Pryor...I know where you're coming from.;)

[salsanchezfan]

Thanks Sal, your opinon is much respected.

Oh and get ready for lots lots more of her in the coming weeks.

:smoke



.............Who is that, John? That might be the most ridiculously good-looking woman I have ever seen. :shock:

[JohnThomas1]

.............Who is that, John? That might be the most ridiculously good-looking woman I have ever seen. :shock:

Alessandra Ambosio, one of the most gorgeous women alive.

[salsanchezfan]

Alessandra Ambosio, one of the most gorgeous women alive.


..........:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

Thats cool mate! I've got a 'thing' about crap that goes around about Leonard having ducked Pryor...I know where you're coming from.;)

Have a close look and you will see me ridiculing this more than anyone. I found the solid claim that the Pryor fight was tentatively set for right after Leonard - Stafford.

[JohnThomas1]

..........:smoke

:smoke

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[salsanchezfan]

:smoke

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])



.............I think I just inoculated. :D

[JohnThomas1]

.............I think I just inoculated. :D

:D

[Duodenum]

Which is only said because he lost them. The facts are if he lost to Duran that too would be in your category, same with Benitez. You'd hear more about the Leonard rematch too if Tommy lost. We'd hear all about how he waited 7 years then still couldn't do it etc. It's a very narrow view. The biggest fights of Tommy's are Cuevas, Leonard, Benitez, Duran, Hagler, Leonard II and Hill. He won 5. Unbeknownst to many he was the minor underdog vs Benitez and Benitez was being spoke of as the man to possibly dethrone Hagler, and many thought he could beat Leonard at 154, a weight many thought he had grown into and was his finest.

Hearns gets a bit ripped off historically actually. His wins over any and all, Cuevas, Benitez, Duran and Leonard II are commonly downplayed and fobbed off. Cuevas, a feared assassin at the time is now not much chop (even tho Hearns destroyed him) Benitez is now pushed back to minor status, Duran was soft or needed a poo or whatever other excuses his fans can clutch at on the day, Leonard was old etc.

The fact is that Hearns was anything but a choker and Marvin and Ray were just too good on the day.Big shame that, losing to a guy many see as the second greatest 147 of all time and a guy proclaimed by all and sundrey to be top 2 160 ever.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a pet topic (hate) this one.

:goodBefore Tommy dethroned Cuevas, it was expected that he could win titles right up to the light heavyweight division. Burdened with that awesome anticipation, the only way he could have avoided getting short shrift historically would have been to win at least a share of the heavyweight title. However, many succumb to the pressures of meeting such high standards. (Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Tony Ayala, etc.....) In the final analysis, Tommy measured up to what was projected for him, and he rebounded from his devastating losses to Hagler and Barkley, just as Duran rebounded from his devastaing loss to Hearns. (Cuevas never recovered from what Tommy did to him.) He did not overachieve or underachieve, but fullfilled his potential, and that's a very excellent realization. He outslugged Duran and Cuevas, and outboxed Benitez and SRL. Tommy was good enough, and we should all be satisfied with that. Surely a first ballot hall of famer.

[JohnThomas1]

Before Tommy dethroned Cuevas, it was expected that he could win titles right up to the light heavyweight division. Burdened with that awesome anticipation, the only way he could have avoided getting short shrift historically would have been to win at least a share of the heavyweight title. However, many succumb to the pressures of meeting such high standards. (Greg Page, Gerry Cooney, Tony Ayala, etc.....) In the final analysis, Tommy measured up to what was projected for him, and he rebounded from his devastating losses to Hagler and Barkley, just as Duran rebounded from his devastaing loss to Hearns. (Cuevas never recovered from what Tommy did to him.) He did not overachieve or underachieve, but fullfilled his potential, and that's a very excellent realization. He outslugged Duran and Cuevas, and outboxed Benitez and SRL. Tommy was good enough, and we should all be satisfied with that. Surely a first ballot hall of famer.

Great post mate, great post.

[Duodenum]

Gerry Cooney and Duane Bobbick deserve mention here.The thing that has always been so aggravating to me about Duane Bobick is that he was such a notoriously slow starter, and kept his left hand so low that John Tate knew to roar out of his corner, and deliver four right hand leads to get him out quickly.

How could anybody perform well enough in three round amateur competition to win the 1971 Pan-American Games HW Championship (over Teo Stevenson), the 1971 National AAU and 1972 Golden Gloves HW Championships, and the 1972 Olympic HW Bronze Medal, then be a slow starter as a professional? (Maybe if he had taken home the Gold, he wouldn't have been such a head case, but still...)

[Titan1]

Howard Davis Jr.
Jackie Beard

[DocDevil]

The thing that has always been so aggravating to me about Duane Bobick is that he was such a notoriously slow starter, and kept his left hand so low that John Tate knew to roar out of his corner, and deliver four right hand leads to get him out quickly.

How could anybody perform well enough in three round amateur competition to win the 1971 Pan-American Games HW Championship (over Teo Stevenson), the 1971 National AAU and 1972 Golden Gloves HW Championships, and the 1972 Olympic HW Bronze Medal, then be a slow starter as a professional? (Maybe if he had taken home the Gold, he wouldn't have been such a head case, but still...)

I didn't think he medaled in the 72 Olympics.